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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SPEN18

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Sorry to tangent a bit, but I want to draw some attention briefly toward one of the other picks I made on my roster - Excitebiker.

How do we feel about that character? As far as "retro" or surprise picks go, are there any other characters you think may be in higher standing for consideration? Being such a striking idea that Sakurai thought of so long ago, I wonder how attached he was to the concept that he might want to revisit 20 years later now that it's more feasible and not as weird. Takamaru still comes up often, but I wonder if Sakurai has changed his mind about that too. Personally I see Excitebiker more in the ROB or Duck Hunt camp rather than the Icies or Pit camp of reimagination, the latter which Takamaru is more suited for.

I feel like Excitebike is a game in high standing at Nintendo, enough to have actual sequels and be referenced all the time in games like Mario Kart and WarioWare. That might not directly mean anything to Sakurai, but it probably has kept the series present in his mind compared to some other forgotten IPs and icons. Very similar to Duck Hunt, in my opinion. And the originality factor writes itself, Wario Bike withstanding... that's just one move anyway. I see Excitebiker slotting in perfectly as another wonderfully awkward surprise character.
Excitebike is underappreciated. It has a learning curve but if you get into it you will see that it's still a very fun game even today. The physics, while simplistic by modern standards, are actually pretty advanced for the time, and the depth of gameplay you can achieve with simply tilting the bike forward and back is pretty amazing. Then there is the influence it had on Super Mario Bros. One of the best on the NES.

It's disappointing that so many have dismissed Excitebiker, in many cases simply because of the existence of Mach Rider. Mach Rider's potential tools don't make him a more optimal moveset candidate, just a different one. If anything, an Excitebiker moveset just may turn out better with more cohesive focus on the unique physics and maneuvers that the biker archetype brings to the table. Clearly Excitebiker would be fully fixated on actually biking and stunting, and personality-wise the character is more of a trickster and a showman than the sci-fi-hero-type Mach Rider, which would produce a completely different dynamic.

Anyway, the leaks clearly had something to do with it, but I just don't know why we've reached this point where Mach Rider is universally accepted as the cool kid on the block, whereas Excitebiker is so often left in the dust. Especially when the latter, if we're being honest, has source material that was miles more significant to its era and to Nintendo broadly.
 

7NATOR

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Sorry to tangent a bit, but I want to draw some attention briefly toward one of the other picks I made on my roster - Excitebiker.

How do we feel about that character? As far as "retro" or surprise picks go, are there any other characters you think may be in higher standing for consideration? Being such a striking idea that Sakurai thought of so long ago, I wonder how attached he was to the concept that he might want to revisit 20 years later now that it's more feasible and not as weird. Takamaru still comes up often, but I wonder if Sakurai has changed his mind about that too. Personally I see Excitebiker more in the ROB or Duck Hunt camp rather than the Icies or Pit camp of reimagination, the latter which Takamaru is more suited for.

I feel like Excitebike is a game in high standing at Nintendo, enough to have actual sequels and be referenced all the time in games like Mario Kart and WarioWare. That might not directly mean anything to Sakurai, but it probably has kept the series present in his mind compared to some other forgotten IPs and icons. Very similar to Duck Hunt, in my opinion. And the originality factor writes itself, Wario Bike withstanding... that's just one move anyway. I see Excitebiker slotting in perfectly as another wonderfully awkward surprise character.

I'd personally still prefer Mach Rider just off cool factor alone, but I've warmed up to the idea of getting Excitebiker instead. They'd probably keep him as a small, pudgy little guy and I think that'd be adorable. And it'd be fun to see how they interpret some of the retro animations into a brand new model and setting.
There's part of me that thinks Excitebiker might be better simply because all Excitebiker does is well.. Ride a Bike. Mach Rider is cooler and has more Gadgets and moves, but maybe the fact Excitebiker is more simple in that he's just focused on the bike might actually make it so it's easier to integrate into the game without feeling like something is missing

that and Excitebike is a more known game too.

I think for Retro picks in general picks though, I would say either Excitebiker or Mach Rider would be the best to go for, unless you want to Count Isaac as a Retro character at this point.

I'm not sure on the prospect of getting a set Retro or Surprise character in this next game, or at least the way we are thinking about it. When talking about Plant, Sakurai did say that the Surprise would be gone shortly after the reveal of the character. Plant was added in because it added some flavor to the roster that wasn't just a Regular hero character, or even a big bad villain. Plant is also well-known, probably more than 95% of the roster

I could see us getting more of these Flavor characters, to add more of that seasoning. I think Excitebiker could be a character that could add flavor, but I think considering that the Horizons for characters that could be added is on a much higher level than when Duck Hunt got in (I would say is the last Retro character added), I wouldn't be surprised if that idea is out-Prioritized Next game
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Sakurai weighs the various plusses and minuses of Excitebiker vs Mach Rider and pulls a Noob Smoke via the creation of Mach Biker. Essentially a combined fighter that has both characters on a single motorcyle and where you can weaponize the turbo boost as an overheated explosive weapon while shooting a people with a machine gun from a distance.
 
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Will

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Ironically, Excitebiker does not make me excited at all.

Now Mach Rider? We get to have flame wars over what’s in their pants! Wait, I mean, uh, we shoot machine guns out of bikes!!! **** yeah!!! :jojo:
 
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Ivander

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Like I said, I think giving Mach Rider a Brawl Pit-like makeover would help them compared to just sticking to what's on the tin. Like making Mach Rider's bike into a vehicle that can switch between a bike form and an Exosuit form that Mach Rider rides and can utilise for weaponry, mobility and close combat. It allows them to keep the bike to use for battle, it allows them to use their weaponry outside of the bike form, it gives them a more original take on the character compared to simply "Captain Falcon 2" where the bike is only used in a couple moments while they mainly fight without the bike, and it allows them to remain "Mach Rider" since they are still riding a Mach Bike-style Exosuit.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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Anyway, the leaks clearly had something to do with it, but I just don't know why we've reached this point where Mach Rider is universally accepted as the cool kid on the block, whereas Excitebiker is so often left in the dust.
I feel like that incredibly badass Melee trophy might have something to do with it. Even the description was badass.
With other retro characters like Pit and the Ice Climbers getting reimagined and modernized along with their universes, I think that trophy made a lot of people's minds race towards all the cool stuff the Smash team could do with Mach Rider.
Motorbike, machine guns, rearranging your own molecules and all the ways they could expand on those abilities, the probable high-speed gameplay in the vein of Captain Falcon... Not to mention a Mad Max inspired stage. It's just a very strong character/universe for its time, something that just begs to be revisited and would make for pretty unique content in the context of Smash.

Excitebike of course has a way bigger legacy, and to be honest Mach Rider the game kinda sucks even for its time, but yeah. That never stopped the Ice Climbers from being one of the most striking characters.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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The reason why Mach Rider gets talked about is because Sakurai had expressed Mach Rider was someone he would want in "Smash 2", if for nothing else but because the name amused him.

This had spiraled into Mach Rider being seen as a likely candidate for a "retro" character for years with the "Chandondorf" Leaker/Grinch Leak taking advantage of that by using Mach Rider as a token "retro" to seem legit.
 

Louie G.

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Just not seeing either Excitebiker or Mach Rider at this point in time, honestly.
Any particular reason? Do you think there are more practical options for retro / surprise picks or do you just think we're done with characters like that? Admittedly the label of Piranha Plant as Ultimate's "surprise character" does make me curious what these options have been opened up to if not simply the classic examples of old school "hardware" picks.

Anyway, the leaks clearly had something to do with it, but I just don't know why we've reached this point where Mach Rider is universally accepted as the cool kid on the block, whereas Excitebiker is so often left in the dust.
I really loved the idea of Mach Rider prior to the Grinch leak, one of the characters I was most excited to see on there. I like the action hero angle a lot, that kind of mount character I've wanted for a while just with that extra factor of a cool sci-fi theme, although I think Excitebiker can be plenty of fun on their own and does lend themselves better to the acrobatics of it all. You're right that they're doing two totally different things, I guess it just depends what people are valuing more - are we aiming more for the cool character who gets a fresh coat of paint, or the character who seeks to represent the essence of a classic game in an intuitive way. Since like, it'd also be dishonest to say the wouldn't affect one another's chances. It would probably just have to be one, although they would end up being totally different angles on a similar base concept. At this point I'd be happy to see either, but Excitebiker strikes me as much more likely to appear and I think feels a bit more... "Smash", I guess. Taking a really simple to understand, deceivingly iconic character and pulling out all the stops.

Seeing people mention Captain Falcon here makes me feel like they might have a different vision of Mach Rider than I do. I mean, definitely a little bit of the Kamen Rider / Tokusatsu stuff going on, but I'm definitely leaning more toward 80s sci-fi action hero and staying glued to the bike. Not really interested in them doing Captain Falcon 2, I just want someone on a motorcycle. The idea Ivander pitched sounds like it could be pretty neat too.

It's just that those kinds of games, namely the "black box"/early arcade-style era of the NES - characters like Balloon Fighter, Excitebiker, etc - has never really interested me the most when it comes to retro options. I've always been more fond of the weirdo Famicom stuff like Murasame, FDC and Joy Mech Fight - I understand that the other "type" of retro they can go for is significantly more famous and reasonable, though.
I get that, I think typically I feel the same. Any of those characters you alluded to would be great, I guess Mach Rider is technically black box but feels more in spirit of those other guys. I'd go further and extend the sentiment to a couple SNES series like Panel de Pon also. They feel more like better established individual characters whereas bringing in some of the black box stuff is more about representing the game essence. But thinking about it "logically", as much as I can right now at least, Excitebike feels the most in line with what we've seen up to this point. Maybe that's a reason to buck the trend and try something different, but I think he'd be refreshing in his own right and I've come to appreciate the idea.
 
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Gorgonzales

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Mine is Balloon Fighter purely for Iwata. Used to be Takamaru, but I'm not seeing that one happen so quickly anymore all things considered.
fellow balloon fighter supporter

1707696931581.jpeg


balloon fight is genuinely one of the few NES titles that holds up today, it's got a solid gameplay loop and unusually tight controls for an NES platformer. It's been referenced a good amount of times in recent years (Nintendo Land, Mario Movie, Villager-we'll get to that) and I think people wouldn't be terribly opposed to his inclusion if he made it in as a surprise pick.

regarding BF as a playable character in Smash, I'd gladly welcome another aerial-focused character and I think there's some interesting potential for the balloons themselves as mechanics. I'd like to see BF manipulate electricity for a special, like how the Icies became cryomancers in the jump to modern hardware; this could easily tie into his balloon themeing too, because static electicity and all. I'd get the flipper in there as a special too, and his Final Smash can be the fish or something.

now for the elephant in the room; I think BF and Villager's current Up-B can co-exist, but it's a little disheartening to see so many people see that up-b as a nail in the coffin for BF. I'd prefer for Villager's up-B to be made different to better distinguish him from BF if he does ever end up getting in at some point in the future.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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Any particular reason? Do you think there are more practical options for retro / surprise picks or do you just think we're done with characters like that? Admittedly the label of Piranha Plant as Ultimate's "surprise character" does make me curious what these options have been opened up to if not simply the classic examples of old school "hardware" picks.
Sakurai had made it clear when he talked about Plant that the "surprise" character is one that isn't a typical protagonist. And we can see it in the choices picked.

"Mr. Game & Watch" literally didn't exist as a character prior to Melee and was designed as a hybrid of many random nameless characters from the Game & Watch handhelds to serve as a "representative" of the games as a whole.

R.O.B. was a peripheral that was used for the compatible games, not the main character (that would be Prof. Hector, who "made" R.O.B. in the context of the series) or even a "character" within the games themselves.

Duck Hunt comprises of the targets you have to shoot (the ducks) and an NPC that reacted if you were successful or not (the dog). Yes, you can factor in the "player" as part of the team with shooting the Zapper, but they aren't the ones directly on the battlefield.

And Piranha Plant is self-explanatory.

Excitebikers and Mach Rider being the main playable namessakes (i.e. the main characters) of their games would automatically disqualify them from such classification.

They are also bad examples of the types of characters that would "defy expectations", the main point of these kind of characters.
One was a character idea considered for the role ultimately filled by the Ice Climbers. Rejected for a specific reason. If "changing his mind later" is enough to count as "defying expectations", then Ridley and Villager would count.

The latter is one Sakurai had literally mentioned as someone he wanted in the past. One that got his own song remix in Melee despite no other non-playable series having that kind of content at the time (aside from Balloon Fight getting a song rip).
And with that knowledge, there has been a degree of expectation in the matter in regards to a "retro" to the point one of the most infamous fake leaks featured the character.


To be a "surprise character" like the four we have, they'd have to be a bit more out there. And as Plant shows, it isn't limited to just relics from the past.
 

Pupp135

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If we were to get another retro character from the NES era, I think Takamaru would probably interest me the most in terms of moveset. As Mach Rider is in Crusade, what’s everyone’s opinion on Mach Rider’s implementation in that fangame?
 
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Super Devon

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I know it's never gonna happen since it's a manga character, but what if Gon gets in Smash Bros?

and I'm not talking about the one y'all might be thinking about. 😏

EDIT: I probably should've clarified what I was referring to when I made this post but this is the one:
1707700410099.png
 
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Louie G.

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The latter is one Sakurai had literally mentioned as someone he wanted in the past. One that got his own song remix in Melee despite no other non-playable series having that kind of content at the time (aside from Balloon Fight getting a song rip).
And with that knowledge, there has been a degree of expectation in the matter in regards to a "retro" to the point one of the most infamous fake leaks featured the character.

To be a "surprise character" like the four we have, they'd have to be a bit more out there. And as Plant shows, it isn't limited to just relics from the past.
Yeah, very fair points. Although personally I try to detach myself from all the random bull**** I know from Sakurai interviews or insular community matters when it comes to judging expectation. I think to the average person, someone like Excitebiker is still a strange and out there choice. They're not much of a character at all, and they don't convey any clear fighter potential. They're very much a "what would they even do" kind of character for someone who isn't as deep into this as we are, and I feel like they still qualify for some degree of unexpectedness as a result. To me it's more about that function.

I don't know if Sakurai would hover over a character like that and be like, nah those guys on that forum read that 20 year old interview so they already know this is going down, yknow? Duck Hunt Dog / "Mr. Peepers" had been moderately popular for some time too, I recall a humble yet fairly dedicated support base. That said, your point about "main characters" is interesting and does ring true throughout the current selection.

Your assessment of the others is strong though, maybe Excitebiker isn't quite on par with those sort of picks and plays more into a standard retro role. But I also think their unorthodox fighting style, as someone who doesn't explicitly fight, puts them somewhere around that camp. Moveset wise I really envision another one of those super niche, weirdo characters that I associate with this style of addition. Maybe he's actually a bit closer to Wii Fit Trainer, however you want to classify her... assuming Sakurai really doesn't have much of a space designated for "retro" character and just picks old characters he likes on a whim. I do wanna say though I appreciate the detailed response, even if I'm splitting hairs on some of it I consider this to be a really interesting point to speculate on.
 

SPEN18

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With other retro characters like Pit and the Ice Climbers getting reimagined and modernized along with their universes, I think that trophy made a lot of people's minds race towards all the cool stuff the Smash team could do with Mach Rider.
Motorbike, machine guns, rearranging your own molecules and all the ways they could expand on those abilities, the probable high-speed gameplay in the vein of Captain Falcon... Not to mention a Mad Max inspired stage. It's just a very strong character/universe for its time, something that just begs to be revisited and would make for pretty unique content in the context of Smash.

Excitebike of course has a way bigger legacy, and to be honest Mach Rider the game kinda sucks even for its time, but yeah. That never stopped the Ice Climbers from being one of the most striking characters.
You said it: Mach Rider's actual source material doesn't really stand out. I think people are underestimating how deep a cut this game is even compared to Ice Climber and Kid Icarus. And at least Pit was very popular even prior to being revamped.

To be fair, the molecule rearrangement thing would probably be like one move and referencing it much further than that would be overkill. And it's not like you can go all that far with the projectiles for Mach Rider, either, if he's supposed to be a character whose primary goal is to chase you down with his bike. In any case, the high-speed, run-and-gun gameplay is again just one way to do a biker character, as opposed to the stunt-focused kit that Excitebiker would come with.

At the end of the day, the whole thing screams of holding onto surface-level qualities which, when thinking of the actual implementations, are pretty immaterial when it comes to making the moveset appreciably better than anything Excitebike has to offer. In my opinion, going for Mach Rider would be reaching pretty far down into the barrel without a clear advantage over characters you don't have to do that for.

The reason why Mach Rider gets talked about is because Sakurai had expressed Mach Rider was someone he would want in "Smash 2", if for nothing else but because the name amused him.
The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that, if anything, this quote may actually work against the idea of Mach Rider as a serious candidate. The whole point was to give a non-serious, joke answer that dodges the question of who Sakurai would actually consider putting in.

I really loved the idea of Mach Rider prior to the Grinch leak, one of the characters I was most excited to see on there. I like the action hero angle a lot, that kind of mount character I've wanted for a while just with that extra factor of a cool sci-fi theme, although I think Excitebiker can be plenty of fun on their own and does lend themselves better to the acrobatics of it all. You're right that they're doing two totally different things, I guess it just depends what people are valuing more - are we aiming more for the cool character who gets a fresh coat of paint, or the character who seeks to represent the essence of a classic game in an intuitive way. Since like, it'd also be dishonest to say the wouldn't affect one another's chances. It would probably just have to be one, although they would end up being totally different angles on a similar base concept. At this point I'd be happy to see either, but Excitebiker strikes me as much more likely to appear and I think feels a bit more... "Smash", I guess. Taking a really simple to understand, deceivingly iconic character and pulling out all the stops.

Seeing people mention Captain Falcon here makes me feel like they might have a different vision of Mach Rider than I do. I mean, definitely a little bit of the Kamen Rider / Tokusatsu stuff going on, but I'm definitely leaning more toward 80s sci-fi action hero and staying glued to the bike. Not really interested in them doing Captain Falcon 2, I just want someone on a motorcycle. The idea Ivander pitched sounds like it could be pretty neat too.
Funnily enough, in retrospect Mach Rider arguably should've been one of the biggest red flags on the Grinch leak, which is saying something given that it had Geno AND Banjo getting in at the same time...

And yeah that part about Excitebiker feeling more like Smash is a good way to put it. He fits better into the spirit of what the series is all about IMO. It's quite possible that Mach Rider would turn out much closer to an OC than a representation of another game's material. And maybe some people would be fine with that as long as he's fun to play, but my stance here is that Excitebiker could be equally fun while still capturing that iconic, nostalgic vibe. People keep talking about how much they changed Pit and ICs but...those characters are still very much themselves, you can tell distinctly that's who they are if you're familiar with their games, and I feel it may be difficult to do Mach Rider in a way that achieves the same effect.

And I agree that, from a pure moveset perspective, the reason to go for Mach Rider would be for the bike. That has to be the focus otherwise I don't see the point.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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Yeah, very fair points. Although personally I try to detach myself from all the random bull**** I know from Sakurai interviews or insular community matters when it comes to judging expectation. I think to the average person, someone like Excitebiker is still a strange and out there choice. They're not much of a character at all, and they don't convey any clear fighter potential. They're very much a "what would they even do" kind of character for someone who isn't as deep into this as we are, and I feel like they still qualify for some degree of unexpectedness as a result. To me it's more about that function.

I don't know if Sakurai would hover over a character like that and be like, nah those guys on that forum read that 20 year old interview so they already know this is going down, yknow? Duck Hunt Dog / "Mr. Peepers" had been moderately popular for some time too, I recall a humble yet fairly dedicated support base. That said, your point about "main characters" is interesting and does ring true throughout the current selection.

Your assessment of the others is strong though, maybe Excitebiker isn't quite on par with those sort of picks and plays more into a standard retro role. But I also think their unorthodox fighting style, as someone who doesn't explicitly fight, puts them somewhere around that camp. Moveset wise I really envision another one of those super niche, weirdo characters that I associate with this style of addition. Maybe he's actually a bit closer to Wii Fit Trainer, however you want to classify her... assuming Sakurai really doesn't have much of a space designated for "retro" character and just picks old characters he likes on a whim. I do wanna say though I appreciate the detailed response, even if I'm splitting hairs on some of it I consider this to be a really interesting point to speculate on.
When it comes to the "surprise character", I've actually looked into Pokémon for example and thought of the likes of Bidoof or the Hex Maniac. Unorthodox, random but not at all unknown, and options that would defy expectations for the Pokémon franchise. Just like Plant.

Though thinking about it now, the fact Bidoof got its own animated short where it was the clear protagonist (Bidoof's Big Stand) may throw a wrench in my reasoning.
 

Louie G.

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When it comes to the "surprise character", I've actually looked into Pokémon for example and thought of the likes of Bidoof or the Hex Maniac. Unorthodox, random but not at all unknown, and options that would defy expectations for the Pokémon franchise. Just like Plant.

Though thinking about it now, the fact Bidoof got its own animated short where it was the clear protagonist (Bidoof's Big Stand) may throw a wrench in my reasoning.
Honestly, doesn't Jigglypuff already kind of utilize the weirdo Pokemon card too? I know we look back and recognize Jigglypuff used to be pretty popular and prominent once upon a time, but I wonder if a rando Pokemon like Bidoof has the same impact when an unassuming cutesy Pokemon like Jigglypuff is already on the roster. Kind of an unintended side effect, although Jigglypuff was also the "joke" character in 64.

I think within the confines of surprise additions from already represented series, I might go for Beedle. Gives Zelda a new, recurring character and is also just a really silly idea representing another kind of unexpected NPC role in the shopkeep. I'd honestly adore a playable Bulborb too, but after Plant that's kind of a been there done that.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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Honestly, doesn't Jigglypuff already kind of utilize the weirdo Pokemon card too? I know we look back and recognize Jigglypuff used to be pretty popular and prominent once upon a time, but I wonder if a rando Pokemon like Bidoof has the same impact when an unassuming cutesy Pokemon like Jigglypuff is already on the roster.

I think within the confines of represented series, I might go for Beedle. Gives Zelda a new, recurring character and is also just a really silly idea representing another kind of unexpected NPC role in the shopkeep. I'd honestly adore a playable Bulborb too, but after Plant that's kind of a been there done that.
Jigglypuff was one of the more merchandised and promoted Pokémon at the time of Smash 64.
Jigglypuff being random now doesn't negate that at one point in time, it was still in your face back in the day. Same with Clefairy as we apparently now know was considered for the same role that Jigglypuff ended up getting.....though the Manga with "Blockhead Clefairy" lasted far longer than Jigglypuff had any sort of spotlight, so hindsight really is 20/20 lol.
 

Louie G.

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Jigglypuff was one of the more merchandised and promoted Pokémon at the time of Smash 64.
I think I wanted to get across more the idea that Jigglypuff's depleted relevance kind of retroactively makes a random Pokemon less surprising. For someone looking at the roster today, and who wasn't there back when she was actually relevant, Jigglypuff comes off about the same way a character like Bidoof might. And maybe a random mob Pokemon pull like Bidoof kind of channels the essence of Piranha Plant, too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally down for some kind of surprise Pokemon, but I wonder if it's possible to evoke the same amount of surprise from a Pokemon anymore that Piranha Plant was able to achieve from Mario. Unless it's straight up a trainer throwing hands, which might be hard to get Pokemon Company to agree to.
 

Garteam

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The reason why Mach Rider gets talked about is because Sakurai had expressed Mach Rider was someone he would want in "Smash 2", if for nothing else but because the name amused him.

This had spiraled into Mach Rider being seen as a likely candidate for a "retro" character for years with the "Chandondorf" Leaker/Grinch Leak taking advantage of that by using Mach Rider as a token "retro" to seem legit.
I think the motorcycle with machine guns mounted on it is doing a lot more work at keeping Mach Rider relevant in Smash speculation than a single Sakurai joke or the Grinch Leak, especially when the Chorus Kids have declined in popularity despite being fellow Grinch alumni.
 

Louie G.

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especially when the Chorus Kids have declined in popularity despite being fellow Grinch alumni
I really wish the enthusiasm toward Rhythm Heaven kept up. I still support the Chorus Kids vehemently, but it's hard not to have lost some spirit when a bulk of the community doesn't seem particularly interested and the series is edging toward ten years of dormancy.

I think the support is still visible, both Chorus Kids and Karate Joe do moderately well on fan polls, but it's not to the extent of someone like Isaac where the fan push feels like it could feasibly breach any external concern about the series' activity. Unfortunately it probably just comes down to the fact that RH doesn't have a concrete main character and they don't pose an immediately discernable fighting style like the golden boy does.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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I think the motorcycle with machine guns mounted on it is doing a lot more work at keeping Mach Rider relevant in Smash speculation than a single Sakurai joke or the Grinch Leak, especially when the Chorus Kids have declined in popularity despite being fellow Grinch alumni.
The Chorus Kids are part of a modern franchise that hasn't had a title in almost a decade, leading people to have doubts on the franchise getting a fighter in general.

Mach Rider is a retro title in a speculation scene that puts emphasis on token "retro fighters" thus will ironically never "age" in discussion (even though Mach Rider kinda fell off in that regard in comparison to the likes of Takamaru).

Not at all a good comparison.
 

Swamp Sensei

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The Chorus Kids are part of a modern franchise that hasn't had a title in almost a decade, leading people to have doubts on the franchise getting a fighter in general.
Is Rhythm Heaven dead guys?
 

Ivander

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I think the motorcycle with machine guns mounted on it is doing a lot more work at keeping Mach Rider relevant in Smash speculation than a single Sakurai joke or the Grinch Leak, especially when the Chorus Kids have declined in popularity despite being fellow Grinch alumni.
I don't think the Chorus Kids should really be compared to Mach Rider when the Chorus Kids' jumpstart started with Gematsu which would later be followed by a Smash 4 datamine after the game's release that implied that Rhythm Heaven may have actually been intended to get a character, which makes sense when Rhythm Heaven was still decently active during that time.

Compared to Mach Rider who was often an NES pick like Takamaru even before the Grinch leak.
 
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Louie G.

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Is Rhythm Heaven dead guys?
I really don't know. I don't think Nintendo is especially pressed to make a new one, but given how littered it is across the recent Warioware games I would say somebody certainly wants to do something new with it. And Tsunku has expressed interest, so everyone is clearly game but it's just up to Nintendo to give it the greenlight. Let's just hope those last couple Warioware titles are raking in enough profit to let that team have their own fun.

I think a new Rhythm Heaven would do well too. It's silently a very well known and beloved series if the amount of viral RH centric posts I see on Twitter are anything to go by. I think Nintendo just needs to be more ok with releasing smaller games without the full AAA pricetag. Warioware is a step in that direction but even $50 may be daunting for a lot of people when it comes to a less known property. I'd pay $100 for a new Rhythm Heaven but I'm definitely not the majority.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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That, and Jigglypuff isn't really a weird pick even in hindsight. The point behind it was "easy promotion"(due to high popularity), "easy clone"(due to enough time in making Smash 64. Hell, this also got Ness in), and as a "joke character". Remember, Joke Characters in Smash aren't weird picks. They're willfully weak characters who are supposed to be bad. Only Jigglypuff and Pichu were ever joke characters. Most weirdo picks are closer to Surprise Characters(this includes Piranha Plant. Wii Fit Trainer isn't among this, if I remember right).

Likewise, as I've said before, Retro isn't a particular category either. We had one, Ice Climbers, and it's never been repeated. Which also makes it harder to know what he means by Retro in how he chooses a character. NES-specific? Retro-like(I.E. Shovel Knight has that style)? He's never done it again, so there's no way to know how he would define it a second time. As of now, it was a selection of NES characters. It's not a pattern, though. It happened once and never again. Duck Hunt is not a Retro pick, but a Surprise pick, after all.

Not that they're bad categories, mind you. They just aren't actually realistic ones that are being applied with actual speculation. "This would be cool" is one thing, but if you're speculating what could actually happen, using the proper categories makes it a lot easier for everyone to be on the same page. It's also why fan nicknames get confusing too. Kind of no point in using terms only some people know. Hell, Clone isn't even an actual Smash Term(but this is common enough well beyond Smashboards that it's an actual proper term. Smash uses Model Swap Fighters, which isn't only clones, and Echoes, who are always clones. It's kind of awkward, though, so Clone is a better term in practice to use. Which mostly doesn't apply for a lot of other terms, heh).
 

Shinuto

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Which of the four mii costume characters, Lloyd Irving, Dragoborn, Dante, and Shantae; that were specifically acknowledged by Sakurai during Kazuya's presentation video has the highest chance of getting an upgrade to playable status? I know there are other hyper mii costume characters too, but right now I'm just focusing on the ones Sakurai directl brought up info about after their showcase.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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Which of the four mii costume characters, Lloyd Irving, Dragoborn, Dante, and Shantae; that were specifically acknowledged by Sakurai during Kazuya's presentation video has the highest chance of getting an upgrade to playable status? I know there are other hyper mii costume characters too, but right now I'm just focusing on the ones Sakurai directl brought up info about after their showcase.
I don't believe in "they get Assist/Costume as 'consolation' so that means they're likely to be promoted next time", especially for guests, but out of these four, I'd say Dante.

No specific reason comes to mind, I just have vibes regarding DMC in general.
 

Wonder Smash

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Which of the four mii costume characters, Lloyd Irving, Dragoborn, Dante, and Shantae; that were specifically acknowledged by Sakurai during Kazuya's presentation video has the highest chance of getting an upgrade to playable status? I know there are other hyper mii costume characters too, but right now I'm just focusing on the ones Sakurai directl brought up info about after their showcase.
What do you mean "specifically acknowledged"? Because that's not the only time he's talked specifically about Mii costumes.
 
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SPEN18

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One thing RH has going for it is it can be made with a relatively small budget. GS for example, being a full-scale RPG, probably can only be made with an all-in effort, even for a remake at this point. RH is one of those games that could fill in a release schedule more easily, perhaps. So in that sense it's difficult to count out completely.
 

YeppersPeppers

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This is mostly speculation, but I have a feeling that Doom Slayer was maybe planned to be part of Kazuya's Mii costume wave as well. Considering how Sora's Mii Wave consisted of only Doom Slayer and two model-rip Splatoon hats, I have a feeling that Doom Lad was taken out of the "fan request" wave (which would've originally been the final wave had Sora not slipped in to make it a 6 fighter pass) and used to give Sora's Mii wave something substantial. Could be totally wrong with that feeling, but it's just a hunch I've got.
 
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Shinuto

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What do you mean "specifically acknowledged"? Because that's not the only time he's talked specifically about Mii costumes.
Oh yeah my bad, I meant in how he acknowledged those four as being popular requests.
 
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