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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Swamp Sensei

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Well, unlike Sonic, he doesn't chuckle, so there is at least that. :troll:

Seriously, though, Knuckles would not be a bad addition to a Smash Bros. game. He is one of the main characters after all, and he is one of the original rivals to Sonic.
I don't dislike Knuckles. I like him a lot.

But I just don't see him as a first addition after Sonic. There are a lot of paths you could take for Sonic characters but Knuckles first seems bizarre.
 

SonicMetaphor

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I don't dislike Knuckles. I like him a lot.

But I just don't see him as a first addition after Sonic. There are a lot of paths you could take for Sonic characters but Knuckles first seems bizarre.
I never said you didn't like Knuckles, and as for the rest, I have to kinda disagree. I do find he could be a fun character. HOWEVER, I do see him as not being a first addition after Sonic, though.

Sonic doing a Maximum Spider is vastly better than the uncontrollable mess with no impact he was in older games so no, the older style of Final Smashes are actually *ing terrible. Functionality should come first and several of the old final smashes do not work in that regard, there's a damn good reason why they got changed and thank * they were.



Smash is objectively a fighting game. There is no argument to be had about this.
Well, not all Final Smashes back then were terrible, and I found Super Sonic, in Smash 4 and Brawl to be challenging in a good way. It's all a matter of preference. Some of them could use improvement, of course, but these are video game characters, and while not all of them were controllable in a video game, I think the controllable Final Smashes in Smash 4 and Brawl reflected that well.

Also, while it is known to have fighting, I would have to say that Smash Bros. is more of a party game. I believe even the series' creator, Masahiro Sakurai believed something like that in Smash Bros. as a series.
 

Louie G.

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I will never understand why people go for Knuckles first when it comes to new Sonic characters.

Tails would add the main sidekick and second most prominent hero in the franchise.
Shadow would add the most popular non Sonic character and the main rival.
Eggman would add the main villain and the second most prominent character after Sonic.

Knuckles adds none of that. I feel like personal bias guides most Knuckles predictions.
I do like Knuckles the most, but I've opted for Tails for years before I came to this conclusion. I've had no issues putting my bias aside. I've had reservations about it for a really long time.

His heightened significance as of late really feels like he's been put back on the map in a big way, and he's still got that friendly rival relationship with Sonic that channels something similar to Fox / Falco. And I don't think his addition as an Assist Trophy is insignificant, like I acknowledged in my explanation I feel like he was somewhat of a fan-led addition. If his popularity was being directly acknowledged I think that puts him in high consideration.

I agree with the logic on Tails, but in my experience he doesn't seem to excite people as much. I would like him and I think his twin tails offer some of the best gameplay variety, but if the addition of another Sonic character was driven by popularity then I think Knuckles and Shadow seem to be favored. And it could be Shadow, and he doesn't have to be an echo fighter, but I feel like Sakurai's own taste might skew toward the older characters given Sonic's current representation. Knuckles' unique abilities also make him a pretty distinct fighter if they're driven at all by who offers the most new mechanics. You could argue Knuckles isn't #1 in any of these categories but he does stand well in all of them individually, so he's a pretty balanced choice if anything.

It's not a decision I just made because I like Knuckles the most, maybe I'm wrong but for years before this I said Tails would have to come first. Only recently does it feel like that isn't such a surefire thing, although it very well still could pan out that way.

If you're adding a Sonic character it's absolutely gonna be Shadow at this point and as a bonus, he won't be an echo fighter. He's genuinely too popular to just be an echo.
Fair enough, you can really slot in any Sonic character that you'd like. I think Shadow has a perfectly good chance too.
 
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waddledeeonredyoshi

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If the point of Ultimate's reworked Final Smashed was to push players already familiar with other Fighting Games into using them, they failed because they're still way to unbalanced despite that and unlike most other fighting games they only take a single button press to activate. No pretzel inputs.

People who deliberately choose play with those on are the ones who likely don't mind the chaotic nature of them in the first place. You'd probably have to make it so that they all become cinematics dealing equal amounts of damage and knockback before the actual competitive community even considers using them. All fitting in a camp trying to ape Zero Laser, Great Eather or Shulk's Team up or whatever. Needless to say, this would remove all of zaniness that they had in previous games... when they were originally conceived for a casual audience who love the chaotic free-for-all matches.

I wouldn't want Final Smashes like that. I like to put some work in unleashing hell upon opponents, wether that be full controll or a complicated input. Anything that requires more effort than pressing the B-button to see a cutscene. I mean where would be the pizzazz? It's boring!!
 

Wonder Smash

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And then Harada laughs and does it anyway, perfectly on-brand. :4pacman:

Honestly? It’s doable, imo. Kazuyas default is from Tekken 1, I wouldn’t be surprised if Jin was just his Tekken 3 incarnation by default.
Kazuya always used the Mishima Style Karate since Tekken 1 and he's got way more attacks in his moveset since then, as shown in Smash.

Jin is a different story. I'm pretty sure the only reason they even gave him that style at first was to replace Kazuya in Tekken 3. Now that Kazuya is back, Jin can be more his own character now.
 
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RileyXY1

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Knuckles would be a weird choice for Sonic's 2nd rep and I think that Tails, Eggman, and Shadow are all far more likely candidates, with them being the main sidekick, the main villain, and the most popular non-Sonic character respectively.
 

RileyXY1

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Knuckles would be a weird choice for Sonic's 2nd rep and I think that Tails, Eggman, and Shadow are all far more likely candidates, with them being the main sidekick, the main villain, and the most popular non-Sonic character respectively.
 

Louie G.

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Knuckles would be a weird choice for Sonic's 2nd rep and I think that Tails, Eggman, and Shadow are all far more likely candidates, with them being the main sidekick, the main villain, and the most popular non-Sonic character respectively.
I think people overstate Eggman's likelihood as a playable character, but I think Tails and Shadow are pretty interchangeable with Knuckles at least in the context of the lineup I posted. The important takeaway is that I think Sonic is getting a new character, I wouldn't really bat an eye at it being any one of them.

I also didn't anticipate Knuckles being the most questionable choice on my roster but I'll make a note of it, lol. Again I advocated pretty heavily in favor of Tails up until maybe a couple months ago where I just reassessed how Knuckles' popularity has been acknowledged within Smash and his prominence has grown outside of it. So now you can just pick and choose which of the two you'd rather see me put on my roster and it wouldn't make much of a difference to me.
 

RileyXY1

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I think people overstate Eggman's likelihood as a playable character, but I think Tails and Shadow are pretty interchangeable with Knuckles at least in the context of the lineup I posted. The important takeaway is that I think Sonic is getting a new character, I wouldn't really bat an eye at it being any one of them.

I also didn't anticipate Knuckles being the most questionable choice on my roster but I'll make a note of it, lol. Again I advocated pretty heavily in favor of Tails up until maybe a couple months ago where I just reassessed how Knuckles' popularity has been acknowledged within Smash and his prominence has grown outside of it. So now you can just pick and choose which of the two you'd rather see me put on my roster and it wouldn't make much of a difference to me.
Eggman's demand did explode after Sephiroth was revealed, but I don't know if that means anything.
 

Louie G.

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Eggman's demand did explode after Sephiroth was revealed, but I don't know if that means anything.
That's exactly why I'm not seeing it honestly, since Tails / Knuckles / Shadow have had visible demand since Brawl. And Eggman can still be done justice as a boss character, whereas every one of those other more historically popular characters can be built much easier using existing assets from Sonic. So there might be more of a drive to add one of them and still fulfill Eggman's popularity by giving him a prominent role.

Of course there's always the possibility of Eggman being considered independently of that, since he's just generally a very important character, but if adding a new Sonic character is driven at all by the long standing persistent fan demand I think they'd sooner opt for one of the three that were presumably in better standing on the ballot and still no less popular on the whole. And Knuckles / Shadow have received pretty targeted highlights within the brand to correlate with the movies, which may have overlapped with the discussion of who should be added if roster planning is being done as we speak. Like if Sega had any preference if Sakurai asked I think it'd be one of those two.
 
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Noipoi

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Eggman's demand did explode after Sephiroth was revealed, but I don't know if that means anything.
That's more of a recency bias thing, tbh. Smash fans gave a tendency of thinking "Oh, the last character revealed is [insert archetype]? That means all the other characters must be [insert archetype]!"

So because Sephiroth is a big third party villain, the fanbase started clamoring around other big third party villains. Like Robotnik.

Not to dunk on Eggman though, love that guy.
 
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fogbadge

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I will never understand why people go for Knuckles first when it comes to new Sonic characters.

Tails would add the main sidekick and second most prominent hero in the franchise.
Shadow would add the most popular non Sonic character and the main rival.
Eggman would add the main villain and the second most prominent character after Sonic.

Knuckles adds none of that. I feel like personal bias guides most Knuckles predictions.
perhaps it's the AT status? some fans seem to think it's one step away from being playable
 

Opossum

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Sonic doing a Maximum Spider is vastly better than the uncontrollable mess with no impact he was in older games so no, the older style of Final Smashes are actually *ing terrible. Functionality should come first and several of the old final smashes do not work in that regard, there's a damn good reason why they got changed and thank * they were.



Smash is objectively a fighting game. There is no argument to be had about this.
Me when Sakurai removed random tripping (it was something that set Smash apart from other fighters, despite being an awful mechanic).
UYlvmc.gif

Why is the file size limit so small. There are fewer pixels in this gif than there are reasons to keep the old version of Super Sonic.
 

Louie G.

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perhaps it's the AT status? some fans seem to think it's one step away from being playable
I think Knuckles’ AT situation is moreso relevant because he was deliberately chosen as an additional AT on top of Shadow in Ultimate. Most third parties only have one so it strikes me more like they’re receptive to his popularity like with Isaac’s return. Now you’ve pretty much got the two most popular characters as ATs. He has a pretty well fleshed out little moveset too.

It’s not the tightest logic on its own, you can just read what I had to say about him in my post to get more insight, but it’s an additional factor worth acknowledging. At this point though not a hill I really want to die on, I choose Knuckles on a coin flip so I just want to defend why it makes sense rather than say 100% he is better than the other options.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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I will never understand why people go for Knuckles first when it comes to new Sonic characters.

Tails would add the main sidekick and second most prominent hero in the franchise.
Shadow would add the most popular non Sonic character and the main rival.
Eggman would add the main villain and the second most prominent character after Sonic.

Knuckles adds none of that. I feel like personal bias guides most Knuckles predictions.
Pumpkin Hill stage + music though... How can you say no?
But I also think he'd be the most fun to play as. Would be ok with any of them though
 
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Will

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Kazuya always used the Mishima Style Karate since Tekken 1 and he's got way more attacks in his moveset since then, as shown in Smash.

Jin is a different story. I'm pretty sure the only reason they even gave him that style at first was to replace Kazuya in Tekken 3. Now that Kazuya is back, Jin can be more his own character now.
For Tekken, absolutely!

For a shot at Smash Bros? I’ve learned my lesson, I’ll take what I can get. :teeth: I’d kill to play Jin in a Tekken 4 outfit (it will be a blue version alt of his Tekken 8 appearance and i will cope with it)
 

DarthEnderX

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I’d like Heihachi over Jin, but that’s because

1. He’s not coming back in Tekken because Kazuya killed him. His moveset lives through test tube baby Reina and Kuma’s heat mode, but the only way to truly play him again would be a third Tekken Tag Tournament… which could happen within the next few years since the other two were released a decade apart (TTT2 was released in 2012 I believe)
I mean...they literally have a character that's been dead for 5 games suddenly playable again in T8. Kazumi was a playable character in T7 who'd been dead for over 40 years.

Tekken is a fantastical world. He could come back as a ghost, a clone, a memory, or even just 'wasn't really dead'.

Peach and Zelda would be absurdly good if Final Smashes were legal
Pretty much everyone acknowledges that Peach/Daisy and Zelda's FSes are stupid OP.

At least with Brawl and Smash for's Final Smashes, they filled their function of being another chaotic add-on to gameplay that serves to equalize the competition between players of different skill levels.
The game has hundreds of items designed to do that already. You don't need to do it with part of a character's main moveset.

The solution to is to balance the new FSes better. Not to give up balancing them and bring back the old BS FSes.

I don't care if they aren't balanced because they're impossible to balance and there's no way they'd be used in competitive no matter how much Nintendo tries to push that FS meter, so they shouldn't bother.
"They didn't balance them well. So it must be impossible. Give up."

Lol. Complete and utter nonsense.

Those games were older games and made over 20 years ago. It doesn't represent the character anymore, nor does it make any sense now that Kazuya is around. Jin's current style is him now. He's been using that in all of his previous crossover appearances. There's no reason to go back to the old one.
I mean...he literally uses that moveset in T8's story mode.

It's also likely the only way he'd get in. Ken got in BECAUSE he was a clone of Ryu. If Nintendo had to put actual work into making another SF character, they wouldn't have picked Ken. Jin being a Kazuya clone is probably the only reason they'd pick him.

I will never understand why people go for Knuckles first when it comes to new Sonic characters.

Tails would add the main sidekick and second most prominent hero in the franchise.
Shadow would add the most popular non Sonic character and the main rival.
Eggman would add the main villain and the second most prominent character after Sonic.
Tails is lame. Shadow should be an Echo. Eggman should be a Boss.

Knuckles would be the best choice for an actual unique Fighter. He's got those knuckles. For the punching.

If you're adding a Sonic character it's absolutely gonna be Shadow at this point and as a bonus, he won't be an echo fighter. He's genuinely too popular to just be an echo.
Popularity isn't relavent. Ken is too popular to be an Echo. But he still is an Echo, because...that's just what he is.

If the point of Ultimate's reworked Final Smashed was to push players already familiar with other Fighting Games into using them, they failed because they're still way to unbalanced despite that and unlike most other fighting games they only take a single button press to activate. No pretzel inputs.
Most fighting games don't balance their Supers around difficult inputs. 2xQCF is the norm these days.

Supers are about meter management. Not about inputs. The problem with the FS meter atm is it builds automatically through normal gameplay, and there's nothing else to spend it on BUT your FS. So there's nothing to manage.

I think people overstate Eggman's likelihood as a playable character
Eggman piloting the Death Egg Robot would make a perfect Boss.
 
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7NATOR

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On Final Smashes, Lowkey I would get rid of them in the next Smash game, especially if The power of the next console would theoretically allow Multiple Final Smashes to be done at once

I would just make it so Specials can be enhanced to increased Levels that could rival the power of Final Smashes in certain circumstances. For characters like Cloud or Terry who already have Super Specials, they could have different moves (Cloud could have different Limit breaks)=, which would include Omnislash). Unlike Final Smashes they are blockable though

And not through a meter, since I know Casuals could be stumped by all the meters. Maybe it's just simple as, the longer you have your Stock, the more powerful your Specials get, which I think would Discourage Camping given that you want to Take Opponents Stocks before they get too powerful


As for Another Sonic Character, The main reason I even came back to Smash Speculation was because I saw the announcement of Sonic x Shadow Generations. and not because "New game means Smash" but because It just shows what's always been in the Sonic Franchise, and that's not only enduring nature even in spite of Dark Age periods, but it's ability to even thrive in the process.

That and it shows Shadow using Chaos Abilities, with more set to be in the actual game. So I think Sega Knows the importance of Chaos Abilities to Shadow's Toolset, which is why I don't think Echo Fighter Shadow is in the cards

Sonic is Definitely in a much better position to get Another character then in 2015 back when their Last game was Sonic Boom (Not including mobile). Now they have a Movie Franchise, and games are still pulling in people (Especially Frontiers).

As for Shadow, I do think that Tails and Knuckles' are viable options, but the reason I think Shadow would get picked is because... People want to play as Shadow the Hedgehog in all his glory. That's not to say people don't want to Play as Tails or Knuckle, but I think Shadow would get picked because I think you could go all out in terms of his moveset and personality, and I think at the end of the day, people just want to beat people up and be flashy. I think Shadow would be the best at being able to do that. People play Wolf more than Fox and Falco
 

SPEN18

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Honestly I find it bothersome how easily the fanbase fell for the whole Echo branding.

Idk, I think the ideal state is zero clones, everyone unique. In reality, I'm alright with some cloning, but I'd reserve it only for certain situations and characters.

I kind of view cloning as something that was more necessary when the roster was much smaller, but now we're big enough that a few more characters tacked on isn't really going to make much difference. What I don't want is names and faces just for the sake of them, and movesets shoehorned onto characters that don't fit.
 

Will

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Me when Sakurai removed random tripping (it was something that set Smash apart from other fighters, despite being an awful mechanic).
View attachment 384595
Why is the file size limit so small. There are fewer pixels in this gif than there are reasons to keep the old version of Super Sonic.
Finally! Someone else mentions the ridiculous 1 MB limit on all files! I have to go to ezGIF and optimize the **** out of something just to post it here.


I mean...they literally have a character that's been dead for 5 games suddenly playable again in T8. Kazumi was a playable character in T7 who'd been dead for over 40 years.

Tekken is a fantastical world. He could come back as a ghost, a clone, a memory, or even just 'wasn't really dead'.
They already did, did you not read test tube baby Reina? Everyone’s skeptical of Harada, I believe him after he said “completely dead” the tenth time. So now that he’s out of Tekken, I think his individual iconic legacy could find another home in Smash, if they picked another rep.

And Jun is still officially “missing”, and I don’t recall Harada ever confirming her death. Jin is just an edgy crybaby

EDIT: Ohhhhhhhhhhhh **** I misread Kazumi! My speculation game is ruined! :p Kazumi is a fair point, but would they recreate T1’s Heihachi vs Kazuya or something? I can’t imagine another way to bring him from flashback settings
 
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Ivander

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Except I'm not going to punch the Earth, I'm going to go higher. I'm punching the moon!

If you get the reference, sorry, but I had to.
Any tree can drop an apple, I'll drop the FREAKING MOON!
---
References aside, while I'm okay with Shadow having his own moveset, there's a part of me that wants his feel and moveset to be a mix between Sonic Battle and Sonic Adventure 2 to make him a Ken-like to Sonic's Ryu. I mean, part of his deal when he first came out was not being too different from Sonic, between having the same spin-dash, Lightspeed dash and Homing Attack and whatnot, so I'm not against him having the same specials as Sonic.
But he clearly has more than just being similar to Sonic, with his Chaos harnessing powers and he can certainly use those for his normal attacks as he has for Sonic Battle, which gives him great material for a unique moveset. Like his Regular A attack can be a side chop followed by two roundhouse kicks, his Forward Tilt could be him finger snapping to cause a burst of energy in front of him, his Forward Smash can be his Sonic Battle backhand(similar to C.Falcon) that emits a blast of chaos energy, his Down-Smash can be his attack where he envelops his hands with energy and brings his fists down hitting both sides, his Dash attack can be him doing a slide kick with the back of his boot and his Down Air can be a unique take on a Down-air where he quickly speeds to the ground and when he hits the ground, a chaos shield bursts around the area where he lands hitting surrounding foes.
Also, his and Sonic's Side-B should be a Lightspeed Dash/Boost Start-style attack that gets them both mobile quickly, but each one has a different take, like Sonic's gives him a burst start that doesn't do a lot of damage or launch, but if it successfully hits the foe can make the foe vulnerable to getting combo'd with a dash attack while Shadow's burst doesn't do any damage and launching, but during the burst start-up makes him temporarily invulnerable(due to him using Chaos Control with it) to attacks and if he gets hit by an attack during that window when a foe is nearby, he can follow-up with a boost kick similar to Lucario's Down-B counterattack.

Basically, I think Shadow can certainly fit with a Ken-like approach where he has similarities to Sonic, but because of some notable differences with his A attacks and one of his Specials, requires players to play him differently in some situations compared to Sonic.
 
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SonicMetaphor

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Honestly, in terms of Shadow the Hedgehog, I would like him to have his own moveset than be an echo, since he is different enough from Sonic. I still think he is too overrated, though.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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I wouldn't mind a double dip. Shadow as a semiclone with a couple different specials and some different normals, and Knuckles as a fully original character with gliding, digging and a ton more punches.
If there's one non-Nintendo series that could justify this, it's Sonic.

(Sorry Tails)
 

Louie G.

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Shadow is likely to be a Luigi/Isabelle type variation of Sonic at this point. Clearly based on Sonic with some similar attacks, but has his own **** to work with as well.
It was always a bit of a difficult point to make, but I kind of convinced myself this was why he wasn't added as an echo fighter to begin with. At the very least his animations would need to change quite a bit to fit better for his personality and unique traits (his glide-looking run, obviously). And then on top of that, most people agreed he warranted at least one or two move changes. While I think he technically could have operated as an echo fighter, I think many fans would have taken issue with the shortcuts that would have needed to be made and at least now he can be reassessed in a way that better suits his identity.

Because like, I guess it's one thing for Samus / Dark Samus to have different animations, or Chrom to adopt Ike's Up B, but once those changes stack on top of each other it's harder to justify the echo label. And then Ken is obviously just a technicality. He was likely planned from the very start whereas characters like Daisy, Dark Samus and Chrom were presumably added later to utilize extra time in order to make simple crowd pleasers. Was probably less feasible to throw a Sonic character in with those since there's additional legal bs that needs to be accounted for and you'd want to get that over with early.
 
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Will

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Honestly I find it bothersome how easily the fanbase fell for the whole Echo branding.

Idk, I think the ideal state is zero clones, everyone unique. In reality, I'm alright with some cloning, but I'd reserve it only for certain situations and characters.

I kind of view cloning as something that was more necessary when the roster was much smaller, but now we're big enough that a few more characters tacked on isn't really going to make much difference. What I don't want is names and faces just for the sake of them, and movesets shoehorned onto characters that don't fit.
I’m fine with last-minute echo additions if they have enough time for it. I love playing Chrom and Dark Samus. I loved Dark Pit in SSB4. I loved Toon Link and Wolf in Brawl. I even loved Captain Ganondorf. I hope they get a little less decloned per subsequent game, and I’d take two more if the Smash team couldn’t find any other way to include characters like Jin or Shadow, for example. It’s been that way since 2001.

I can’t say I “fell” or Echoes, I understood it was a rebranding to help settle a vocal minority that acted like including a character as a clone was a form of disrespect. I’ve always been complacent with these inclusions, and as much as I would also loved everyone to be unique, I will accept the reality of any given situation and understand the possibility that similarly built characters within the same franchise can be made into Echoes.
 

DarthEnderX

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They already did, did you not read test tube baby Reina
I did not read that about her. I thought she was just another one of Heihachi's illegitimate kids. But, unlike Lars, this one actually follows in his footsteps.

Everyone’s skeptical of Harada, I believe him after he said “completely dead” the tenth time.
I believe him too. I just don't think it means anything. Like I said, Kazumi was "completely dead" in T7. But it didn't stop her from being playable. I could see Heihachi showing up only in flashbacks in future games' story modes, and that's enough to get him onto the roster.

Shadow is likely to be a Luigi/Isabelle type variation of Sonic at this point. Clearly based on Sonic with some similar attacks, but has his own **** to work with as well.
You know who else should be clearly based on Sonic with some similar attacks, but has his own **** to work with as well? Sonic. That guy needs some updated goddamn moves!
 
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RileyXY1

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I think Tails would be the most unique possible 2nd Sonic rep, mostly because we don't have a lot of characters focused around technology and gadgets. The closest we have are Samus, R.O.B, Mega Man, and the Mii Gunner, which aren't much.
 
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Garteam

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Sonic doing a Maximum Spider is vastly better than the uncontrollable mess with no impact he was in older games so no, the older style of Final Smashes are actually *ing terrible. Functionality should come first and several of the old final smashes do not work in that regard, there's a damn good reason why they got changed and thank * they were.



Smash is objectively a fighting game. There is no argument to be had about this.
I'd much rather have something fun yet non-functional over something boring and slightly more functional but still not workable enough to be used competitively. Not everything in Smash needs to be in service of competitive play. Sometimes it is fun just to revel in the chaos of Smash's casual mechanics.

Old Super Sonic was an absolute cluster**** of a move, but that's better than the new Super Sonic being incredibly bland and weak. I wouldn't even compare it to Maximum Spider because Spidey's Super has excellent sound design and dynamic posing, which makes it engaging to use.

The next Smash needs to commit to going balls to the wall with stuff like Landmaster or commit to making Final Smashes a serious mechanic that is properly balanced across the cast. Ultimate's in-between approach just alienates both sides of the debate.
 

Wonder Smash

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I mean...he literally uses that moveset in T8's story mode.

It's also likely the only way he'd get in. Ken got in BECAUSE he was a clone of Ryu. If Nintendo had to put actual work into making another SF character, they wouldn't have picked Ken. Jin being a Kazuya clone is probably the only reason they'd pick him.
But that's going by one instance in T8 while his regular moveset is still present. I just don't think that's enough for Nintendo to go with that. Also, I'm sure they would put in the work for Jin's regular moveset (which gets flashier with each game).
 

DarthEnderX

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But that's going by one instance in T8 while his regular moveset is still present. I just don't think that's enough for Nintendo to go with that. Also, I'm sure they would put in the work for Jin's regular moveset (which gets flashier with each game).
shrug I feel like if they were going to go to all the trouble of making an entirely new moveset, they'd pick a different character who's nothing like Kazuya.

Not everything in Smash needs to be in service of competitive play.
That's why the game has hundreds of stages and items!

Yeah, not everything needs to be in service of competitive play, but at least SOMETHING should be! At the very least, a character's actual moveset should be in service of competitive play.


A possible compromise, that would unfortunately require more work, would be to make the FS Meter version of FSes all short and to-the-point Super moves. But then make then make the Smash Ball version whatever dumb, broken **** they want. And it won't matter, because Smash Balls will be turned off in competitive anyway.
 
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Louie G.

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Sorry to tangent a bit, but I want to draw some attention briefly toward one of the other picks I made on my roster - Excitebiker.

How do we feel about that character? As far as "retro" or surprise picks go, are there any other characters you think may be in higher standing for consideration? Being such a striking idea that Sakurai thought of so long ago, I wonder how attached he was to the concept that he might want to revisit 20 years later now that it's more feasible and not as weird. Takamaru still comes up often, but I wonder if Sakurai has changed his mind about that too. Personally I see Excitebiker more in the ROB or Duck Hunt camp rather than the Icies or Pit camp of reimagination, the latter which Takamaru is more suited for.

I feel like Excitebike is a game in high standing at Nintendo, enough to have actual sequels and be referenced all the time in games like Mario Kart and WarioWare. That might not directly mean anything to Sakurai, but it probably has kept the series present in his mind compared to some other forgotten IPs and icons. Very similar to Duck Hunt, in my opinion. And the originality factor writes itself, Wario Bike withstanding... that's just one move anyway. I see Excitebiker slotting in perfectly as another wonderfully awkward surprise character.

I'd personally still prefer Mach Rider just off cool factor alone, but I've warmed up to the idea of getting Excitebiker instead. They'd probably keep him as a small, pudgy little guy and I think that'd be adorable. And it'd be fun to see how they interpret some of the retro animations into a brand new model and setting.
 
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DarthEnderX

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Always thought it was strange they removed this one, if nothing else it'd be nice to see it added back.
I think it's strange that any of them are removed in Ultimate. They should all be added back.

We need more characters who are on wheels, anyway.
...do we?

That's a weird archetype to think we "need" to have.

Like the people that are like "We don't have a clown character yet!" That's right, we don't. And that's just fine.
 
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Louie G.

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That's a weird archetype to think we "need" to have.

Like the people that are like "We don't have a clown character yet!" That's right, we don't. And that's just fine.
It's not a need, but it's good to acknowledge how characters stand out from one another. If we don't have a character on wheels, or a clown character, then at least that's something fresh they're bringing to the table. Sakurai has made it very apparent that's something he explicitly keeps in mind, so the ability to provide some fun new gameplay opportunity or flavor is valuable.

Obviously other factors are being taken into account, Excitebiker won't arbitrarily be added because Sakurai thinks we need a character on wheels, but when factoring in other options for surprise characters or throwbacks he might look at Excitebiker and be like "oh yeah, that'd be something different".
 

Speed Weed

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Sorry to tangent a bit, but I want to draw some attention briefly toward one of the other picks I made on my roster - Excitebiker.

How do we feel about that character? As far as "retro" or surprise picks go, are there any other characters you think may be in higher standing for consideration? Being such a striking idea that Sakurai thought of so long ago, I wonder how attached he was to the concept that he might want to revisit 20 years later now that it's more feasible and not as weird. Takamaru still comes up often, but I wonder if Sakurai has changed his mind about that too. Personally I see Excitebiker more in the ROB or Duck Hunt camp rather than the Icies or Pit camp of reimagination, the latter which Takamaru is more suited for.

I feel like Excitebike is a game in high standing at Nintendo, enough to have actual sequels and be referenced all the time in games like Mario Kart and WarioWare. That might not directly mean anything to Sakurai, but it probably has kept the series present in his mind compared to some other forgotten IPs and icons. Very similar to Duck Hunt, in my opinion. And the originality factor writes itself, Wario Bike withstanding... that's just one move anyway. I see Excitebiker slotting in perfectly as another wonderfully awkward surprise character.

I'd personally still prefer Mach Rider just off cool factor alone, but I've warmed up to the idea of getting Excitebiker instead. They'd probably keep him as a small, pudgy little guy and I think that'd be adorable. And it'd be fun to see how they interpret some of the retro animations into a brand new model and setting.
I think Excitebiker is one of the most sensible retro picks, but not necessarily one of the most exciting for me personally. If we're following the R.O.B. and Duck Hunt school of thought, characters like Excitebiker are the kinds of picks that make the most sense - they come from very iconic games that sold well and are constantly referenced by Nintendo. Even without new games, they still have this sort of evergreen presence in Nintendo media as these games that are always just kind of Around and ready to be trotted out whenever they do a throwback thing - there's a goddamn Excitebike course in Mario Kart, even. So they're always fresh in people's minds regardless. It's just that those kinds of games, namely the "black box"/early arcade-style era of the NES - characters like Balloon Fighter, Excitebiker, etc - has never really interested me the most when it comes to retro options. I've always been more fond of the weirdo Famicom stuff like Murasame, FDC and Joy Mech Fight - I understand that the other "type" of retro they can go for is significantly more famous and reasonable, though.

I will say Mach Rider would be pretty sick
 
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