Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[JOJONumber691]

Sephiroth didn't get in primarily because of Final Fantasy having little content. He got in because he's ****ing Sephiroth, one of the most iconic villains in gaming history. Final Fantasy having little content was a secondary reason at best.

And Final Fantasy is also an Anthology Series that has every entry be its own thing. Logically speaking if Cloud wasn’t dealt as bad of a hand as he was, I’m pretty sure we would’ve probably gotten someone like Bartz, Squall, or Terra instead. Hell even in the context of Villains, Kefka, while not as Iconic, is still an extremely iconic Villain, likely the second most behind Sephiroth himself, and is actually more popular in Smash’s Homeland of Japan, not to mention arguably VI’s Main Character. I feel like if Cloud wasn’t dealt a bad hand, we would’ve more than likely have gotten someone else from a different Final Fantasy game. I’m not denying Sephiroth’s popularity, but I feel like if Cloud was given proper content in the first place, Sephiroth would’ve gotten in third or fourth instead of Second. It would’ve been like if we had gotten Melia instead of Aegis for Xenoblade or Caeda instead of Ike for Fire Emblem (disregarding Echoes for obvious reasons). It would’ve felt redundant regardless of popularity. Yet they got Characters from different entries second instead of someone else from their original game. There is a Smash Precedent for this, just saying. If Cloud’s initial lack of content wasn’t a thing, Sephiroth likely would’ve been Deprioritized.

 

[fogbadge]

And Final Fantasy is also an Anthology Series that has every entry be its own thing. Logically speaking if Cloud wasn’t dealt as bad of a hand as he was, I’m pretty sure we would’ve probably gotten someone like Bartz, Squall, or Terra instead. Hell even in the context of Villains, Kefka, while not as Iconic, is still an extremely iconic Villain, likely the second most behind Sephiroth himself, and is actually more popular in Smash’s Homeland of Japan, not to mention arguably VI’s Main Character. I feel like if Cloud wasn’t dealt a bad hand, we would’ve more than likely have gotten someone else from a different Final Fantasy game. I’m not denying Sephiroth’s popularity, but I feel like if Cloud was given proper content in the first place, Sephiroth would’ve gotten in third or fourth instead of Second.

you aren’t taking into account that SE always put cloud and sephiroth together

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And Final Fantasy is also an Anthology Series that has every entry be its own thing. Logically speaking if Cloud wasn’t dealt as bad of a hand as he was, I’m pretty sure we would’ve probably gotten someone like Bartz, Squall, or Terra instead. Hell even in the context of Villains, Kefka, while not as Iconic, is still an extremely iconic Villain, likely the second most behind Sephiroth himself, and is actually more popular in Smash’s Homeland of Japan, not to mention arguably VI’s Main Character. I feel like if Cloud wasn’t dealt a bad hand, we would’ve more than likely have gotten someone else from a different Final Fantasy game. I’m not denying Sephiroth’s popularity, but I feel like if Cloud was given proper content in the first place, Sephiroth would’ve gotten in third or fourth instead of Second.

Hey can you provide that Kefka statement with a source?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Hey can you provide that Kefka statement with a source?

The game of Final Fantasy VI has no Main Character, as technically every Party Member is the Main Character. Kefka is also relevant to pretty much all of them last I checked, and he does go through a slight Arc, from a Lackey to a God. So, since he is so important for everyone in Final Fantasy VI, Kefka could actually get priority over Terra if FFVI got in.

you aren’t taking into account that SE always put cloud and sephiroth together

Wouldn’t Square want to promote the latest Final Fantasy or something like XIV, which gives them your Subscription? They’d have plenty of reason to insist on someone other than Sephiroth.

 

[Gengar84]

I think part of it is that there’s been a lot more of a push for FFVII specifically lately than the series as a whole. Rebirth is probably their most hyped series of games since at least Final Fantasy X on the PS2. Add that to the fact that Sephiroth is a hugely popular and iconic villain, I think his inclusion makes sense. I think there’s a lot more general gamers that will recognize Sephiroth over any character in the series outside of VII. There’s also the possibility that negotiating for a second character from the same game is easier than one from a different entry. I imagine if they can get Cloud back, it wouldn’t be too much more difficult to get Sephiroth along with him as far as licensing goes.

 

[fogbadge]

Wouldn’t Square want to promote the latest Final Fantasy or something like XIV, which gives them your Subscription? They’d have plenty of reason to insist on someone other than Sephiroth.

If you look at pretty much every crossover cloud is in, Sephiroth wasn’t too far behind. In fact if you look at it a lot of the way things are done are like the other FF crossovers

 

[osby]

And Final Fantasy is also an Anthology Series that has every entry be its own thing. Logically speaking if Cloud wasn’t dealt as bad of a hand as he was, I’m pretty sure we would’ve probably gotten someone like Bartz, Squall, or Terra instead. Hell even in the context of Villains, Kefka, while not as Iconic, is still an extremely iconic Villain, likely the second most behind Sephiroth himself, and is actually more popular in Smash’s Homeland of Japan, not to mention arguably VI’s Main Character. I feel like if Cloud wasn’t dealt a bad hand, we would’ve more than likely have gotten someone else from a different Final Fantasy game. I’m not denying Sephiroth’s popularity, but I feel like if Cloud was given proper content in the first place, Sephiroth would’ve gotten in third or fourth instead of Second. It would’ve been like if we had gotten Melia instead of Aegis for Xenoblade or Caeda instead of Ike for Fire Emblem (disregarding Echoes for obvious reasons). It would’ve felt redundant regardless of popularity. Yet they got Characters from different entries second instead of someone else from their original game. There is a Smash Precedent for this, just saying. If Cloud’s initial lack of content wasn’t a thing, Sephiroth likely would’ve been Deprioritized.

I thought Kefka's popularity was more lopsided towards the Western fandom because of how localization changed his character.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I mean fair enough. Best case scenario is that we get both someone new as well as Cloud and Sephiroth. Best case scenario is Final Fantasy gets a new character per game. But also we’re going to get cuts, so the one Third Party Non-Echo who is from the same game as someone else on the Roster might get cut. This is replying to Gengar.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The game of Final Fantasy VI has no Main Character, as technically every Party Member is the Main Character. Kefka is also relevant to pretty much all of them last I checked, and he does go through a slight Arc, from a Lackey to a God. So, since he is so important for everyone in Final Fantasy VI, Kefka could actually get priority over Terra if FFVI got in.

I want the source on the statement that he's more popular than Sephiroth in Japan.

 

[osby]

Wouldn’t Square want to promote the latest Final Fantasy or something like XIV, which gives them your Subscription? They’d have plenty of reason to insist on someone other than Sephiroth.

With how FF7 remakes are going, there's a good chance it will still be the latest Final Fantasy to promote when the next Smash rolls around.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I want the source on the statement that he's more popular than Sephiroth in Japan.

I looked it up, I was wrong. Sorry for being an idiot. Here’s the Top 20 from the 35th Anniversary Poll as translated by a Tweet.

If you look at pretty much every crossover cloud is in, Sephiroth wasn’t too far behind. In fact if you look at it a lot of the way things are done are like the other FF crossovers

Only major two I can name off the top of my head are Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Kingdom Hearts was mostly VII Characters and also Squall Leon iirc. Then the first Dissidia was pretty much just Heroes vs Villains, Cloud vs Sephiroth. Again, wouldn’t Square want shill XIV more?

I thought Kefka's popularity was more lopsided towards the Western fandom because of how localization changed his character.

I didn’t know about this so do elaborate.

With how FF7 remakes are going, there's a good chance it will still be the latest Final Fantasy to promote when the next Smash rolls around.

You still have Cloud and actual content if he still manages to be Base Game.

 

[fogbadge]

Only major two I can name off the top of my head are Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Kingdom Hearts was mostly VII Characters and also Squall Leon iirc. Then the first Dissidia was pretty much just Heroes vs Villains, Cloud vs Sephiroth. Again, wouldn’t Square want shill XIV more?

7 has more characters than 14 in both of them. Now I’m a bit unsure of the numbers in the other crossovers like theatrhytm but sephiroth is still one of the first in line

7 has remained their big one to promote both before and after 14

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Prior to Min Min, I was actually flat out expecting a secondary FFVII character in Vol. 2 as a sort of "apology tour" for the lack of substantial content in For and Ultimate's base compared to other guests. Geno's costume and the Chocobo Hat still unaccounted for and coming with Cloud last time only solidified my thoughts.

My initial guess was Tifa until I remembered the Seven Squares thing and how Sephiroth was the only Final Fantasy character on it period. Showing he'd be the one that is on the minds of the higher ups.

....then like I said, Min Min happened and threw a puppet-shaped monkey wrench in my logic now that Spirit promotions were a thing. Especially since Geno's own costume was one of the ones unaccounted for and he too was on the Seven Squares list.
In hindsight I should have stood my ground because in essence, I did predict Sephiroth at a point secondary third party guests outside Echoes weren't taken seriously.

 

[JOJONumber691]

7 has more characters than 14 in both of them. Now I’m a bit unsure of the numbers in the other crossovers like theatrhytm but sephiroth is still one of the first in line

I mean yeah, but I will be honest Safer Sephiroth could’ve easily been a boss tbh.

 

[Gengar84]

With how FF7 remakes are going, there's a good chance it will still be the latest Final Fantasy to promote when the next Smash rolls around.

Final Fantasy VII Rebirth Part 2 actually comes out later this month and I predict it will do a lot better than Final Fantasy XVI did earlier on. It makes sense that they’d want to continue to promote the series since the sequels/remakes are an ongoing thing are by far the most hyped thing Square-Enix has done in many years. I don’t really see a scenario where Sephiroth gets cut for another Final Fantasy character like Tidus. I also don’t really see us getting another Final Fantasy character at all. I think Cloud and Sephiroth fill that well themselves. Not that I wouldn’t be excited to get more. Some music from the rest of the series would be great though. I’d love to see someone from Chrono Trigger or Octopath Traveller make it in as the next Square-Enix rep because I find that more exciting than a third character from the same franchise. I won’t complain about some FFIX content since that might be my all time favorite game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I looked it up, I was wrong. Sorry for being an idiot. Here’s the Top 20 from the 35th Anniversary Poll as translated by a Tweet.
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Only major two I can name off the top of my head are Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Kingdom Hearts was mostly VII Characters and also Squall Leon iirc. Then the first Dissidia was pretty much just Heroes vs Villains, Cloud vs Sephiroth. Again, wouldn’t Square want shill XIV more?

I didn’t know about this so do elaborate.

You still have Cloud and actual content if he still manages to be Base Game.

Yo... Wakka is number two?

Yoooooooooooooo!

 

[fogbadge]

I mean yeah, but I will be honest Safer Sephiroth could’ve easily been a boss tbh.

true but that wouldn’t have stopped him being playable as well

 

[Gengar84]

Yo... Wakka is number two?

Yoooooooooooooo!

I was under the impression that Wakka was generally disliked. I always liked the character myself but I’ve read a lot of comments from people that didn’t care for him.

 

[osby]

I'm just happy to see Lightning in the top 20, even above characters like Zack or Sephiroth.

 

[Speed Weed]

It's worth noting that Wakka placed so high because he was the center of a meme that exploded in Japan for a while

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's worth noting that Wakka placed so high because he was the center of a meme that exploded in Japan for a while

Explain the meme.

I must learn this tidbit of Wakkaology.

 

[JOJONumber691]

true but that wouldn’t have stopped him being playable as well

Fair enough. I just feel like Sephiroth would’ve likely been third if Cloud wasn’t screwed over, and I also feel like Sephiroth being in as unique of a position as he is has definitely dipped his chances a little. I hope he returns though, because even if another Final Fantasy should get in alongside Sephiroth, Sephiroth’s Design is Peak and I love him!

 

[darkvortex]

FF14 would almost certainly get some more characters in a new dissida. Game is huge. it's one of their biggest money makers. But 7 will always have the icon factor and it's importance to JRpGS in general (series like Persona don't get popular in the West without FF7). it'll always be the mainline title they push (after that 6 is up there but if also say X is a big one)

 

[Ivander]

It's worth noting that Wakka placed so high because he was the center of a meme that exploded in Japan for a while

Wait, if I'm remembering the intention of it correctly, that meme wasn't exactly favourable, wasn't it?

 

[Gengar84]

It’s sad that I was a huge Final Fantasy fan during the PS1 and PS2 eras but I’ve never heard of three of the top ten most popular Final Fantasy characters. I would have never guessed that so many characters from FFXIV were so popular. I actually played the game myself for about a week with my friends but I don’t remember a single character from it. I generally don’t play games that require a subscription fee so I’m pretty ignorant on any characters from XI or XIV.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

On the off-chance Sephiroth is cut and second Final Fantasy Rep is open for the taking, who would you rather have?

A different FF7 rep (Tifa, Vincent, Barret, Cait Sith etc) or another title in general (Terra, Black Mage, XVI guy etc)?

 

[Gengar84]

On the off-chance Sephiroth is cut and second Final Fantasy Rep is open for the taking, who would you rather have?

A different FF7 rep (Tifa, Vincent, Barret, Cait Sith etc) or another title in general (Terra, Black Mage, XVI guy etc)?

My next favorite Final Fantasy character is probably Vincent but I think representing a different game would probably be more interesting. There’s a lot of characters from the series that I love like Squall, Garnet, Amarant, Lulu, and Auron but if I had to pick just one it’s probably Garnet from FFIX. Final Fantasy IX is probably my favorite game ever and I think a summoner character would be awesome in smash. She and Amarant are my two favorites from that game so that helps too.

 

[FazDude]

On the off-chance Sephiroth is cut and second Final Fantasy Rep is open for the taking, who would you rather have?

A different FF7 rep (Tifa, Vincent, Barret, Cait Sith etc) or another title in general (Terra, Black Mage, XVI guy etc)?

I'd take a rep from another game entirely - My personal pick is Vivi from FF9, with Kefka in second.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let's be clear, if Sephiroth goes, there won't be another Final Fantasy character to "take his place".

Cloud and Sephiroth are not only the two biggest names of Final Fantasy as a whole, but arguably of Square entirely.

And honestly? What reason would Sephiroth go now that he's here that wouldn't involve Cloud going as well?

 

[Dukefire]

Let's be clear, if Sephiroth goes, there won't be another Final Fantasy character to "take his place".

Cloud and Sephiroth are not only the two biggest names of Final Fantasy as a whole, but arguably of Square entirely.

And honestly? What reason would Sephiroth go now that he's here that wouldn't involve Cloud going as well?

As he said, "I'll never be a memory."

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Prior to Min Min, I was actually flat out expecting a secondary FFVII character in Vol. 2 as a sort of "apology tour" for the lack of substantial content in For and Ultimate's base compared to other guests. Geno's costume and the Chocobo Hat still unaccounted for and coming with Cloud last time only solidified my thoughts.

My initial guess was Tifa until I remembered the Seven Squares thing and how Sephiroth was the only Final Fantasy character on it period. Showing he'd be the one that is on the minds of the higher ups.

....then like I said, Min Min happened and threw a puppet-shaped monkey wrench in my logic now that Spirit promotions were a thing. Especially since Geno's own costume was one of the ones unaccounted for and he too was on the Seven Squares list.
In hindsight I should have stood my ground because in essence, I did predict Sephiroth at a point secondary third party guests outside Echoes weren't taken seriously.

Low key same, i didnt know if it would actually happen but i did foolishly expect a second FF character at some point.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Let's be clear, if Sephiroth goes, there won't be another Final Fantasy character to "take his place".

Cloud and Sephiroth are not only the two biggest names of Final Fantasy as a whole, but arguably of Square entirely.

And honestly? What reason would Sephiroth go now that he's here that wouldn't involve Cloud going as well?

Agreed.

To add to this, I don't expect we're going to see a lot of "company reps," (for as much as that's even a thing) getting outright replaced when they don't come back. Put another way, don't expect Dante if Ryu and Mega Man are gone. Don't expect Geno if Cloud and Sephiroth don't return. It's hard to imagine them not making veterans a priority.

 

[Gengar84]

Agreed.

To add to this, I don't expect we're going to see a lot of "company reps," (for as much as that's even a thing) getting outright replaced when they don't come back. Put another way, don't expect Dante if Ryu and Mega Man are gone. Don't expect Geno if Cloud and Sephiroth don't return. It's hard to imagine them not making veterans a priority.

Same here. I think those characters were chosen because they’re the most popular and/or iconic characters for each company or there was a ton of fan support for the character. It doesn’t really make much sense to cut them for a less popular character overall. I can see a scenario where both Cloud and Sephiroth are cut if they want to drastically scale back the roster or if working with Square-Enix is no longer feasible. Cutting Sephiroth for Clive doesn’t really make any sense, especially since VII is both more recognizable and now also more relevant thanks to the upcoming release of the next chapter of Rebirth and another down the line.

 

[Will]

As he said, "I'll never be a memory."

Someone in the Nintendo corporate office must’ve really loved Sephiroth to throw him in the pass when he wasn’t doing **** on a Nintendo system. When he first got revealed, I thought the Switch was getting a cloud version of the remake or something.

 

[fogbadge]

Someone in the Nintendo corporate office must’ve really loved Sephiroth to throw him in the pass when he wasn’t doing **** on a Nintendo system. When he first got revealed, I thought the Switch was getting a cloud version of the remake or something.

7 was on the switch long before that

 

[Louie G.]

I think Konami may be gone as a whole.

Why? They're one of two partners (alongside Capcom) that provided Nintendo with new characters and a well of new content without any additional character added later. Everything added on base roster was unconditional - all that Castlevania content could have easily sustained a DLC pass, and I'm sure there are other companies who would have pushed for it to be that. We even got Bomberman randomly popping up as an Assist Trophy, and Konami joins Namco as one of a select few third parties with an item via Death's Scythe, interestingly enough. They were one of the most openly generous and cooperative participants who were clearly just happy to be here and saw the very prospect of being in Smash Bros as profitable enough longterm, keeping their series in the public eye and introducing them to new fans.

We've established that cooperation isn't the be all end all of third party character inclusion, since Nintendo can feasibly grab whoever they want, but both Snake and Simon are here because people asked for them. They are popular characters and presumably quite easy to get back, it looks as if Konami was smooth sailing all around, I don't see why they wouldn't bring at least one of the two back and keep Konami in their pocket given their apparent generosity. Castlevania seems especially cheap and simple to work out given the surplus of content and their frequency of crossovers lately.

I get that at the end of the day we gotta cut someone and minimizing third parties is tricky, but I think anyone who displayed a lot of cooperation for base game, had their characters appear in trailers and cutscenes, didn't deliberately rely on upsells to expand their content is pretty much a no-brainer to collaborate with once again. It feels a bit arbitrary to single them out, outside of them simply not being involved with Smash 4 which doesn't represent their current relationship or status.

 

[MasterCheef]

hmm , PSO2 New Genesis is the highest player count online RPG in Japan.

bet this massively increases likelihood for the next Smash release

The Most Popular MMORPGs in Japan 2023 - Japan Venge

The most popular MMORPGs in Japan are Phantasy Star Online 2 and Final Fantasy XIV amongst others. As a player myself, I would love to try new and popular

www.japanvenge.com

 

[Will]

7 was on the switch long before that

Yeah. But I’m not talking about the original, I mean concurrent releases during that time.

 

[Sucumbio]

Wakka

Hm that list of top 20 FF characters looks like mostly playstation fans of the game ... Just the SNES games had some awesome characters..

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah. But I’m not talking about the original, I mean concurrent releases during that time.

right, cause only relevance matters in this game about history