Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

?

What does this have to do with Mother 3?

I don't think Captain Rainbow is going to be translated because part of it involves proving Birdo is a girl because she has a certain kind of sex toy.

I'm surprised that flew even in Japan, frankly.

cause that’s what I thought happened with mother 1

I think you're missing the point. My point was that the problem with Mother 3 specifically is that the game is a lawsuit minefield waiting to happen if it ever releases outside of Japan. That has nothing to do with Captain Rainbow (who has a bunch of other issues, but I digress).

Alright.

 

[Will]

?

What does this have to do with Mother 3?

I don't think Captain Rainbow is going to be translated because part of it involves proving Birdo is a girl because she has a certain kind of sex toy.

I'm surprised that flew even in Japan, frankly.

Unrelated but I just want to point out that this still exists

 

[CannonStreak]

Unrelated but I just want to point out that this still exists

View attachment 384374

I could be wrong, but I don't think what Birdo had was not shown like Peach's thing there.

 

[Opossum]

Unrelated but I just want to point out that this still exists

View attachment 384374

I mean in general it's less that and more so that everything surrounding Birdo's portrayal in the game is very grossly transphobic.

 

[fogbadge]

Oh yeah I forgot about that

 

[SPEN18]

Gen 9 is literally the worst time to cut the character since like Gen 2? The whole "Puff is not relevant" thing kinda died this generation lol. Jigglypuff is all over Paldea and uh, you know, Scream Tail exists? Literally the only Pokémon in Smash who got a paradox form too, not even Pikachu and Charizard have one. Why would this time be the one where they get cut for "being irrelevant" and not say, Brawl or Smash 4 when they actually were irrelevant?

It's the time that Jiggs might get cut because there will likely be way more cuts than in Brawl or Smash 4, and Jiggs was already almost cut during times when there were only a handful of cuts.
I would put essentially zero stock into Scream Tail; the choices for the regional forms are all over the place and largely just meant to give a new spin on some older designs, not necessarily indicative of marketing push or popularity.
I wouldn't say Jiggs is really any more or less relevant than it was during the Brawl or 4 eras; it's just that there is more competition for spots now. Relevance was never the issue with Jiggs, anyway; the likes of Lucario and Charizard have gotten better priority than Jiggs even when they weren't new faces, and we could go down the list of Pokemon, both vets and potential newcomers, and compare them favorably against Jiggs.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Unrelated but I just want to point out that this still exists

View attachment 384374

Yeah but that isn't used as proof of Peach's womanhood.

 

[Garteam]

Considering the entire context of the conversation was about Jigglypuff being "safe" because Original 12, it really is a wonder why that point is being focused on, hmm.

Osby, Swamp, and I have all provided posts detailing alternative merits for Puff's inclusion beyond her just being a member of the original 12. Each of your replies strawmanned our arguments by exclusively discussing Puff's original 12 status as if this were the only premise we provided. Stratos is the only person who has made any explicit claim to the original 12 being untouchable, but he's far from the only person in this thread backing Jiggs' inclusion.

I love a good hot take and I don't think Jigglypuff's exclusion is an entirely out-there idea, especially when she only made it into Brawl due to the game's second delay. However, people's reasoning for supporting Puff is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be and you're not deaing with those beliefs in good faith when you refuse to move past this one point.

 

[Sucumbio]

Unrelated but

Disney just spent 1.5 billion investing in Epic Games.

 

[SneakyLink]

Unrelated but

Disney just spent 1.5 billion investing in Epic Games.

Can’t wait to have Elsa hit the griddy after defeating a team consisting of Goku, Batman, Solid Snake, and Omni Man.

Edit: If I had to tie this to Smash, it’s proof Disney isn’t afraid of investing into video game projects. Thus I think Sora returning in future installments is safe.

 

[dream1ng]

So long Toys for Bob (probably)

https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/tech-layoffs-microsoft-activision-blizzard-18651552.php

Don't worry Crash and Spyro, you can go sit next to Banjo and Conker. :|

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Osby, Swamp, and I have all provided posts detailing alternative merits for Puff's inclusion beyond her just being a member of the original 12. Each of your replies strawmanned our arguments by exclusively discussing Puff's original 12 status as if this were the only premise we provided. Stratos is the only person who has made any explicit claim to the original 12 being untouchable, but he's far from the only person in this thread backing Jiggs' inclusion.

I love a good hot take and I don't think Jigglypuff's exclusion is an entirely out-there idea, especially when she only made it into Brawl due to the game's second delay. However, people's reasoning for supporting Puff is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be and you're not deaing with those beliefs in good faith when you refuse to move past this one point.

Except my argument was never about what merits she has or lack thereof.
You are the one arguing a strawman when the entire crux of my argument was always specifically about people claiming she was untouchable over the Original 12 status.

Telling me about whatever else other merits for why she should stay is completely irrelevant to what I was talking about because I was NEVER arguing about whether or not she had merits in the first place. Nor was I ever arguing that she SHOULD be cut.

 

[Will]

Unrelated but

Disney just spent 1.5 billion investing in Epic Games.

It makes sense. They have a lot of Marvel content.

 

[Garteam]

Unrelated but

Disney just spent 1.5 billion investing in Epic Games.

That's a bold move from the Mouse. The reference to "a new expansive, open, persistent, and social universe" gives me major Metaverse vibes, so I predict the project's scope will expand to an absurd degree in an unfocused manner and later blow up in their face. Still, it will be cool to see what this materializes as.

It does show that Disney is turning their eye to gaming to a greater degree though. That's a good sign for Sora's return.

 

[Louie G.]

Original 12 talk, alright.

I always furrow my brow a bit at the occasional Ness disrespect. I see no real reason why he should be placed on a lower pedestal than Captain Falcon, as a similarly definitive and popular character within Smash Bros itself. When people judge the obscurity of the Mother series, they are working off statistics from 25+ years ago. Earthbound is, indisputably, more popular than it's ever been nowadays due to its availability on modern consoles and increased prestige among cult circles, influencing a number of successful indie games and so forth. If the Original 12 is not untouchable, it still at least provides the basic framework for the series' conventions and values moving forward. Smash is no Smash at all without its cult characters, in my opinion, and Ness is the first and pretty much most definitive example.

I believe the Gematsu leak stated that there was dispute whether or not Ness or Lucas would return, and the other would be cut. It should be noted, the roster was presumably decided before Earthbound was added to Virtual Console for the first time worldwide. A lot has changed since Smash 4, and Earthbound's notoriety and value has only increased. Now not only has Earthbound been available on every current gen console since, as well as SNES Classic, but Nintendo makes quite a show of doing so. This one too.

Maybe the most compelling point though, is that Smash Bros is littered with Mother content which would feel tremendously lost provided the series was cut wholesale. You could say those could return without a character, but to what end? Why keep around Mr. Saturn, Franklin Badge, Ramblin Evil Mushroom and cut that universe's core representative loose without the difficulty of technical constraints? Maybe it's a byproduct of Ness being around since the beginning, but Mother's prominence in Smash makes it pretty hard to surgically remove without feeling some significant loss in the process. And considering it continued to get new stages, items and so forth I have to imagine the Smash team still considers it to be a priority. That's why Ness isn't going anywhere.

And then swapping him out in favor of Ninten or Lucas accomplishes pretty much nothing when he's still the most popular of the bunch, both in and out of Smash Bros. Actually, the thought of swapping him with Ninten is really funny because most people would just ask why they changed his name.

Which makes Jigglypuff the one O12 member who has something to be concerned about. And it's easy to explain, because she's obviously one of the less popular or significant characters among the cast of essential, iconic Pokemon such as Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario... Greninja is extremely popular... You could probably make a strong case to keep Squirtle and Ivysaur over her, they're at least widely more popular. But for one reason or another, Jigglypuff finds her way back every time.

Obviously this is one of the easiest characters to animate in the entire game, and shares traits with one of the characters the crew spends the most time developing (Kirby). That ease of access probably carries her harder than her Smash legacy, although I doubt the latter is a complete nonfactor. Characters can increase in popularity and create new legacies by virtue of being in Smash, and while Jigglypuff hasn't experienced that to the degree of Falcon or Ness I think the team must be aware that a character who has been with the series for 25 years would be a hard loss for some. I think under the circumstance that we get veterans back later as DLC, if Jigglypuff were cut, she would be among that pack. I think I'm personally expecting her to return again as a lower priority later add, it's worked out for her every other time, but I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking she's getting the boot. I love Smash's traditions and the legacy of the original game but it's not as if that doesn't live on in a bunch of other ways too, and she's at least two steps below the rest when placed relative to everything else.

I think the greatest loss with Jigglypuff would be Smash losing an unorthodox 'Mon, something cute and unassuming. I think she adds a good dynamic to the cast and if we're to believe Squirtle would also be on the chopping block (and Pichu, but that goes without saying) I worry we'd risk Pokemon skewing too much into the "cool" camp and less so the "cute" camp. That's a valuable balance to maintain and I think at least someone ought to be here to fulfill that... that's more a matter of personal taste than any valid reasoning, but I dunno maybe the Smash team is concerned about that too. Could always bear that in mind with whichever new Pokemon is added.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

My feelings on any of the original 12 getting cut are a bit like my suppositions of fighters getting in Smash that haven't been on Nintendo consoles; on some level I can accept it happening, but I have small expectations that it actually will until proven otherwise.

 

[Ivander]

So long Toys for Bob (probably)

https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/tech-layoffs-microsoft-activision-blizzard-18651552.php

Don't worry Crash and Spyro, you can go sit next to Banjo and Conker. :|

And this, kids, along with what's happening with Embracer Games, is why companies buyouts should not be treated so idealistically. Moments like these are why company buyouts should always be treated with caution.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So long Toys for Bob (probably)

https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/tech-layoffs-microsoft-activision-blizzard-18651552.php

Don't worry Crash and Spyro, you can go sit next to Banjo and Conker. :|

Maybe if we get all the Scrimblos together, we can get a whole collaborative Scrimblo game.

 

[fogbadge]

So long Toys for Bob (probably)

https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/tech-layoffs-microsoft-activision-blizzard-18651552.php

Don't worry Crash and Spyro, you can go sit next to Banjo and Conker. :|

they kept your seats warm

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Unrelated but

Disney just spent 1.5 billion investing in Epic Games.

Its not that weird, Disney stuff clogs the fortnite store all the time, this just makes it easier to put their stuff in the game i suppose.

 

[dream1ng]

Maybe if we get all the Scrimblos together, we can get a whole collaborative Scrimblo game.

Sakurai, while also watching sumo:

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Sakurai, while also watching sumo:

Ok, I'm going to patent Sumo Scrimblos now.

 

[chocolatejr9]

So long Toys for Bob (probably)

https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/tech-layoffs-microsoft-activision-blizzard-18651552.php

Don't worry Crash and Spyro, you can go sit next to Banjo and Conker. :|

The already-abysmal chances of a new Skylanders have somehow managed to drop even lower...

Though now that I think about it, did we ever talk about those rumors of Microsoft going third party? Or did I miss that?

 

[dream1ng]

The already-abysmal chances of a new Skylanders have somehow managed to drop even lower...

Though now that I think about it, did we ever talk about those rumors of Microsoft going third party? Or did I miss that?

Not sure, haven't kept up with the thread.

But it seems likelier that at some point Halo comes over. Even if it's not, like, Infinite, something such as the MCC perhaps.

I've heard conflicting claims that it won't be tentpole IP like Halo or Gears, but I think that's inevitable even if not imminent. More liberal multiplatform support is only going to give them a smaller exclusive library and hinder the Xbox's install base. And it's already small and already at a point they're pivoting to this.

I don't know if this is a temporary measure until their next system comes out or what, because despite this, there are also claims they're not dropping out of the hardware game, but it seems like a situation where you can't put the genie back in the bottle once it's out.

I guess we'll get a better idea after their upcoming presentation. But I don't think that thing will give the full picture as much as try to control the narrative and minimize how drastic a shift is coming, albeit potentially coming incrementally.

 

[NintenRob]

Maybe one day Jigglypuff will be cut, but I really think this is the wrong time to do it. Scarlet and Violet feels like the first time Game Freak has truly showed Jigglypuff some love in the games, and a lot of it too.

Obviously there's Scream Tail. A brand new paradox Pokémon based on Jigglypuff. Giving us a version of Jigglypuff who is actually strong and usable (well, as a support). Wolfy was actually able to do quite well with it in VGC

And she's everywhere in Paldea too. You can find igglybuff as among the first Pokémon and she's even intended to be the first Wild Tera Pokémon you come across. She's helping promote the new gimmick of the generation.



The other thing to consider are the other Pokémon in Smash. Yeah, quite a few of them outrank her, but she arguably outranks quite a few of them herself. There's 10 individual Pokémon now. And an argument could be made she'll be out prioritizing Squirtle, Ivysaur, Incineroar and definitely Pichu (heck she already out prioritized Mewtwo.... Twice)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To change the topic somewhat, I've been thinking about third party package deals.

It's really common to hear something like, "Well Sonic is definitely coming back, so Bayonetta and Joker are too." Or perhaps "Mega Man is coming back, so Ryu and Ken are locks."

Do you believe this? Do you believe that one third party veteran makes other from the same company more likely?

 

[Louie G.]

And an argument could be made she'll be out prioritizing Squirtle, Ivysaur, Incineroar and definitely Pichu (heck she already out prioritized Mewtwo.... Twice)

I wonder how much of this would boil down to taking direct precedent over Squirtle / Ivysaur, for example, or just the team cutting their losses and saying hey we can get Jigglypuff done in like half of the time it would take us to make this character. I'm certain that's the reason she was prioritized over Mewtwo, at least... and that particular example probably won't happen again, if I had to guess.

Smash 4 also had that technical limitation, so maybe at this point bringing back the whole Pokemon Trainer would be seen as a better distribution of resources. Hard to say, but I do think Jigglypuff's major boon continues to be her ease of development and not much else. It's cool to know she's more prevalent in this recent generation, although she'd still be a bit of a random pull if we were judging on that merit exclusively.

 

[NintenRob]

I wonder how much of this would boil down to taking direct precedent over Squirtle / Ivysaur, for example, or just the team cutting their losses and saying hey we can get Jigglypuff done in like half of the time it would take us to make this character. I'm certain that's the reason she was prioritized over Mewtwo, at least... and that particular example probably won't happen again, if I had to guess.

Smash 4 also had that technical limitation, so maybe at this point bringing back the whole Pokemon Trainer would be seen as a better distribution of resources. Hard to say, but I do think Jigglypuff's major boon continues to be her ease of development and not much else. It's cool to know she's more prevalent in this recent generation, although she'd still be a bit of a random pull if we were judging on that merit exclusively.

Honestly, as I was writing it, I was thinking about if Pokémon Trainer would return. In Smash 4, they were likely cut due to technical reasons. But that reason seemingly no longer exists. But then when you talk roster reduction, can you give three characters worth of development to the Trainer again? Maybe they actually forego trainer in favour of character switch being a universal thing? Like a new mode?


Pokémon Trainer in general is in a perculiar spot

 

[dream1ng]

To change the topic somewhat, I've been thinking about third party package deals.

It's really common to hear something like, "Well Sonic is definitely coming back, so Bayonetta and Joker are too." Or perhaps "Mega Man is coming back, so Ryu and Ken are locks."

Do you believe this? Do you believe that one third party veteran makes other from the same company more likely?

I think this is a flawed premise because it once again suggests that the sticking point would be the third-party. And of course, the character can't get in without the third-party being on board, but the sticking point will almost certainly be Nintendo, and who they choose to re-include.

There's a mindset of "if Nintendo can get them to return, they will return". But, if the roster is starting again, that's not accurate.

I believe if they want to get back Sonic and Bayonetta and Joker, for example, they could. But not all characters will be given the same priority. It just can't work that way. And to that end, not all third-party fighters will be given the same priority. Some will be prioritized higher, and that will likely result in some of a company making it back, and some not.

Because the alternative is to partition it out in chunks per company. But one, that's not the basis on which third-party characters are added. And two, that would make it likelier that an entire company fails to return, because all vets in certain companies were prioritized above all vets in another.

Like, bar a buyout, something like this:
Returning: Cut:
is likelier than this:
Returning: Cut:
(not that I'm saying those specific characters will get cut, it's just an example)

 

[Louie G.]

Do you believe this? Do you believe that one third party veteran makes other from the same company more likely?

I used to, but I don't quite anymore. And that's simply because if we continue to let third parties continue to stack up with this train of thought, there will be far too many to be sustainable. I think Bayonetta, since you used her as an example, is fairly safe in a vacuum. But in the general scope of the roster, maybe we only want to keep the most obvious characters from a given company around and phase out extraneous or more conditional third parties in favor of new ones? Sure we can probably afford to keep Bayonetta, Joker, Kazuya, both Snake and Simon, but how many third parties are a comfortable ratio to Nintendo characters on base roster? At that point it becomes less of a matter of "can Nintendo get this character" and moreso "who is most important to keep around?" And we probably want to keep as many companies directly involved as possible, making those secondary characters a bit less safe.

Certain company "reps", like Sonic and Pac-Man, are just The Guys. They're the obvious one to keep around - they are mascots, they're the most popular characters available - and the secondary character is arguably gonna be a bit more up in the air. But I may argue in cases like Capcom and Microsoft, both of their characters have unique merits not fulfilled by the other that may make them more desirable to keep around alongside the other.

Mega Man and Ryu are, essentially, a package deal in my eyes. Mega Man is the old school Nintendo pull, the fan favorite, whereas Ryu is the evergreen face of Capcom and the fighting game genre. Detached from one another they fulfill unique roles, and as a duo they carry Capcom efficiently on their shoulders. Microsoft, on the other hand, doesn't even have its mascot character in the game (Master Chief). But it does have a character from their most successful (acquired) property in Steve, and pretty much the longest standing fan request and Nintendo icon in their own right Banjo & Kazooie. So I feel like this situation parallels Capcom in a way, where these two are working their magic in different ways and their additions compliment each other. For the latter I believe Minecraft was the reason negotiations with Microsoft went so smoothly in the first place, so those two feel intrinsically linked.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

To change the topic somewhat, I've been thinking about third party package deals.

It's really common to hear something like, "Well Sonic is definitely coming back, so Bayonetta and Joker are too." Or perhaps "Mega Man is coming back, so Ryu and Ken are locks."

Do you believe this? Do you believe that one third party veteran makes other from the same company more likely?

For Capcom? Definitely, they are cheap and easy to work with and characters who will always be popular.

In the example of Sega? I feel like that's kinda different since your dealing with multiple companies and people.

 

[7NATOR]

Now whether there are Cuts or not, I do think that at the very least the Roster will be large in Size. Now whether it's bigger than Ultimate's Final Roster now (maybe even over 100 Characters) or not, remains to be seen, but I think any idea of having a roster being much lower than it is now would probably be vetoed, Especially since I do think Nintendo will give the Smash Team (or Studio S if they are indeed Developing Smash) the Extra Development time if need be like it was for Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom and Mario Wonder


I want to propose a "Gimmick" of this Smash game. I think this might be the time where Smash turns into a "Tag" Fighter of Sorts, Kind of like Squad Strike, but like the main mode

as it is in Smash Ultimate now, Squad strike can only be played in 1v1 Format, with a limit of 5 characters at a Max, with no option to play Online. The Time it takes to Load each character after every stock is also Longer than regular, which while not game-breaking in the slightest is cumbersome, enough to not make it ideal

If the Switch 2 is Beefy enough in power however, I actually could maybe seeing the idea of being able to Play multiple characters in One match finally be feasible in Regular play. I think especially if we have a large roster and there's alot more Collaborations with 3rd parties in the Next Smash game, being able to "Crossover" in Real time I think could be a cool idea. If you want to Play Mario, Sonic, Cloud, and Sora in the same match, now it would be possible in all game Scenraios, King of Fighters Style

Now I don't mean summoning other characters like Assists, as I think that would be Complicated for Casuals. I just mean being able to have Multiple characters for every stock. Maybe being able to Switch to another character while in Play (but keeping the Same Percentage) at a max

To change the topic somewhat, I've been thinking about third party package deals.

It's really common to hear something like, "Well Sonic is definitely coming back, so Bayonetta and Joker are too." Or perhaps "Mega Man is coming back, so Ryu and Ken are locks."

Do you believe this? Do you believe that one third party veteran makes other from the same company more likely?

Well 2 ways to look at it

For the Veteran character side, I think being able to Collaborate with the Company makes it more likely that all the content already developed is in play for Re-usablity. If you're able to use Mega Man again, than it's likely Ryu and Ken are in play too. Granted I know that Capcom of Japan and Capcom of USA actually are different entities to deal with, but they commonly operate with each other on Business dealings, so it should work in that scenario, Unless the Company wants to retire the characters, or try to phase them out for whatever reason, like Marvel did with the X-Men for when they were owned by FOX.

I think the main thing that makes working with 3rd parties hard (Besides Licensing costs and such) is making sure the 3rd party is on board with any Developments on their content in the game, what's allowed and not allowed and such. But if the characters are already made from previous games, even if they talk to the company about any changes, it's much easier than creating a New character from scratch

The other thing, and this applies to any potential new characters from a 3rd party already in the game, Is I could see a Scenraio where Nintendo could have 3rd Party characters in the base game and not eat too much into Potential Profits, but maybe for any DLC the 3rd Party company gets more pieces of the Pie. Using Square Enix as an example, maybe Nintendo can have Cloud, Sephiroth, Hero in the base game for a lower price, and maybe any Square Enix Newcomer in the base game as well, but DLC is where Square can have more of the profits, especially on the side of Music Licensing. I know that was a Talking point about Sephiroth as DLC in Ultimate making getting Cloud in base an easier deal to settle.

 

[NintenRob]

Potential hot take, I think Banjo is more likely than Steve


We know Steve was a tricky character to negotiate for, taking up to 5 years. And is mechanically very complicated. And didn't even get any of core Minecrafts themes


Banjo meanwhile, by all accounts, was easy to acquire. Has a relatively simple move set and was noted as scoring extremely high on the ballot, potentially even second

 

[Louie G.]

Potential hot take, I think Banjo is more likely than Steve

I actually agree with you, marginally, but I think it's more likely they just both come back.

I don't think Steve would be that particularly difficult to bring in, with those negotiations already settled now and many of the technical complications having been solved. It is a bit easier for me to visualize the characters with less out-there "DLC" factors to return on base because some of those wilder characters are not designed with the same philosophy as most of the others - not particularly logical, but they do operate on a bit of a different design philosophy than the average character. I'd expect someone like Hero or Steve to be dialed back a tad if they return, the response would probably sooner be to tweak them than to immediately disregard them on the principle of complexity. Unless that starts to manifest into different issues down the line.

Minecraft is also a game that feels big enough to go through the whole shebang for. I don't really like, on its own, the argument that Minecraft is the biggest game ever so its a lock to return since it feels like it's ignoring the way third party additions differ than Nintendo characters. I think the more compelling argument people should use is that Steve comes from a new generation of classic games. He appeals to a younger audience, and our current third party lineup skews heavily in a nostalgic 80s-90s direction. Obviously some characters like Sonic or Pac-Man are going to appeal to gamers of any age, but I think it's valuable to keep a guest around from a game that debuted this century. He's gonna be one of a handful of characters that your little cousin, who will be within the target age range to buy Smash once this new one comes out, can recognize.

 

[dream1ng]

Potential hot take, I think Banjo is more likely than Steve


We know Steve was a tricky character to negotiate for, taking up to 5 years. And is mechanically very complicated. And didn't even get any of core Minecrafts themes


Banjo meanwhile, by all accounts, was easy to acquire. Has a relatively simple move set and was noted as scoring extremely high on the ballot, potentially even second

But those Steve problems have been solved, or at least accepted. The negotiation was completed and the character was added. It reached a point MS, Mojang, Nintendo and Sakurai were all on board. The bridge has been built, now they just need to go over it again.

And yes, Steve is more intensive to develop for than most characters, especially due to how he interacts with the stage, but one, a lot of that work has now been done, and two, doing it incrementally will be less taxing than having to go back and do it all retroactively. Like Kirby hats.

Not that I'm weighing in on Banjo vs. Steve. I would prefer Banjo return. I imagine Steve sold to a level where they'd want him back.

But the argument of "x was difficult to acquire", which you especially see a lot with Sora, isn't really as salient... after they've already done the hardest part.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Minecraft is so evergreen that I can imagine Nintendo would want to keep it represented in SSB and its entirely possible Sakurai and/or the next Smash team have new ideas for him, so he feels likely to me.

 

[NintenRob]

I actually agree with you, marginally, but I think it's more likely they just both come back.

I don't think Steve would be that particularly difficult to bring in though, with those negotiations already settled now and many of the technical complications having been solved. It is a bit easier for me to visualize the characters with less out-there "DLC" factors to return on base because some of those wilder characters are not designed with the same philosophy as most of the others - not particularly logical, but they do operate on a bit of a different design philosophy than the average character. I'd expect someone like Hero or Steve to be dialed back a tad if they return, the response would probably sooner be to tweak them than to immediately disregard them on the principle of complexity. Unless that starts to manifest into different issues down the line.

Minecraft is also a game that feels big enough to go through the whole shebang for. I don't really like, on its own, the argument that Minecraft is the biggest game ever so its a lock to return since it feels like it's ignoring the way third party additions differ than Nintendo characters. I think the more compelling argument people should use is that Steve comes from a new generation of classic games. He appeals to a younger audience, and our current third party lineup skews heavily in a nostalgic 80s-90s direction. Obviously some characters like Sonic or Pac-Man are going to appeal to gamers of any age, but I think it's valuable to keep a guest around from a game that debuted this century.

But those Steve problems have been solved, or at least accepted. The negotiation was completed and the character was added. It reached a point MS, Mojang, Nintendo and Sakurai were all on board. The bridge has been built, now they just need to go over it again.

And yes, Steve is more intensive to develop for than most characters, especially due to how he interacts with the stage, but one, a lot of that work has now been done, and two, doing it incrementally will be less taxing than having to go back and do it all retroactively. Like Kirby hats.

Not that I'm weighing in on Banjo vs. Steve. I would prefer Banjo return. I imagine Steve sold to a level where they'd want him back.

But the argument of "x was difficult to acquire", which you especially see a lot with Sora, isn't really as salient... after they've already done the hardest part.

Something to consider though in the context of Ultimate Vs being in the next game is based game Vs DLC. So negotiations is still an important factor.


I should clarify though, I'm not saying Banjo is staying while Steve is getting cut, reality is the two characters have very little in common aside from the same parent company (and even then, it's more Mojang and Rare)

Banjo just seems to have less hurdles.

 

[dream1ng]

I know we like to look at Smash like it's the artistic vision of Sakurai but it's also a business that Nintendo has a big hand in guiding and I imagine that blocky ****** sold a hell of a lot of units and Nintendo might be fiscally motivated to not overlook that going forward.

 

[SPEN18]

I think the greatest loss with Jigglypuff would be Smash losing an unorthodox 'Mon, something cute and unassuming. I think she adds a good dynamic to the cast and if we're to believe Squirtle would also be on the chopping block (and Pichu, but that goes without saying) I worry we'd risk Pokemon skewing too much into the "cool" camp and less so the "cute" camp. That's a valuable balance to maintain and I think at least someone ought to be here to fulfill that... that's more a matter of personal taste than any valid reasoning, but I dunno maybe the Smash team is concerned about that too. Could always bear that in mind with whichever new Pokemon is added.

Not saying it's likely, but that just makes me think of Eevee as an undeniably evergreen option for the "cute and unassuming Pokemon" role. Not that it would be directly replacing or that it couldn't coexist with the likes of Puff, of course. Just makes me think of how a candidate like that could stand out more if we had never gotten Pichu, Puff, or Trainer, or if those ones were to get cut.

 

[Louie G.]

Something to consider though in the context of Ultimate Vs being in the next game is based game Vs DLC. So negotiations is still an important factor.

I've considered it, but I don't think it's a problem with Microsoft. If use Square Enix as an example, they seem more willing to play ball if there's a DLC incentive down the line... which makes sense, I think by default most companies would feel this way. Microsoft has a slew of characters who would be incredibly profitable as DLC - Master Chief, Crash Bandicoot, Doom Slayer, etc.

We don't have a lot of basis for it yet since they've only been playing ball for one game, but I feel like they would be more than willing to toss Banjo and Steve back their way with the promise of future content and profit. And since they own so many popular characters, that seems like kind of an inevitability one way or another. I agree that Banjo comes with less "baggage", but I can't imagine them putting up that much of a fight about Steve either. Especially if Nintendo pays handsomely which, for Steve / Minecraft, I feel like they would be eager to do since Steve is the kind of character that moves units.