Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Curious Villager]

The cuts will go past third-parties, clones and technical difficulties. It will start cutting original first-party characters. Because if you cut a handful of third-parties and a handful of clones, you're still going to be left with more characters than they'll have the resources to bring back if the rebuild the roster.

In looking at Brawl and 4 for precedent, you're focusing on how many characters they cut, but not that those games rebuilt their rosters, which is why most of those cuts happened. If they do that this time, it's not like 20 characters brought back from Melee, or 30-something from Brawl - 50 returning would still omit nearly 40. 60 would still omit nearly 30. And you have to factor in newcomers. If there are cuts past licensing, there are going to be a lot of cuts, just based on finite resources.

So basically a small number from that pool, just not compared to what Brawl and Smash 4 took from Melee and Brawl's pool respectively because naturally this game has a much larger roster.
I didn't say the exact same number of cuts that Brawl and Smash 4 had, obviously the number would be bigger. Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I get that in the end they did choose Ness, but at the same time...I feel like if the Original Twelve were well and truly auto-additions, it wouldn't have even been a question lmao.

Fair enough.

Just pointing out that at least Ness has a scapegoat that would be taken out first before they go after him since it's unlikely they'd change course and keep Lucas instead if the situation came up again.

Either scenario, Lucas is ****ed. Just a matter of whether or not he takes Ness with him.

 

[Gengar84]

My stance is more that the original twelve are unlikely to be cut more so than guaranteed locks. I do think they will come back if the next Smash is just a normal sequel. If there’s a radical shift, I can see Jigglypuff and Ness being cut. I think Fox and Captain Falcon are still likely safe even in that scenario. I don’t really like to think in absolutes in either direction so I try to keep an open mind whatever happens.

 

[Opossum]

Fair enough.

Just pointing out that at least Ness has a scapegoat that would be taken out first before they go after him since it's unlikely they'd change course and keep Lucas instead if the situation came up again.

Either scenario, Lucas is ****ed. Just a matter of whether or not he takes Ness with him.

Yeah I'm not optimistic about Lucas's odds...which is sad because I love having him here. Hell, if it came down to it I'd easily keep him over Ness lmao. Alas.

As someone who doesn't think Puff is untouchable and has even cut her from hypothetical rosters in the past, you're way too hung up on Puff's status as an original 12. You're missing many of the more substantial points behind her inclusion:

1. She's incredibly easy to develop. She's a ball with stubby arms and legs, which is already relatively easy to animate, that has been reusing the same animations for 22 years now. Smash for 3DS even shows you don't need a unique model for her, as she just used her X/Y model in that game.
2. She has a unique playstyle that only Wario and Sora come close to replicating, with Sora being generally agreed upon to be out the door for the base game.
3. She's become a unique part of Smash's iconography despite not being that prominent in her home series due to her legacy with Smash as a franchise, similar to Sheik and Roy.

I'd say Puff's worse-case scenario is being Pokemon Cut #4. Pichu and Incineroar definitely aren't out-prioritizing her and TPC's fascination with Greninja has come to a close, so she'd likely out-prioritize him due to ease of development, additional legacy, and higher popularity in Smash. There's also the possibility that Pokemon Trainer is axed in favour of Solozard, which I don't think is very likely, but Puff's chances would further increase if that were to happen.


Is there any evidence to support this claim? The only thing I can think of is how late Ness was revealed in that game's pre-release cycle, but a lot of that can be chalked up to Smash for 3DS' secret fighters not being revealed before the game's launch.

It was listed as such in the Gematsu leak, so yes. It outright said that there were discussions over whether or not Ness or Lucas should be cut, since they couldn't allocate enough resources to prioritize both of them, and that the other would likely be post launch DLC. Lo and behold, Ness was kept, and Lucas was the second DLC character.

 

[smashkirby]

World of Light had some neat ideas like the overworld navigation but the lack of platforming stages and any co-op play kind of killed it for me. The spirit battles were basically just event matches that we’ve already seen before in previous games. I will admit that the very end was really cool allowing us to finally play as Master Hand.

Just because SSE wasn’t handled perfectly, it doesn’t mean the whole idea was bad. I had a ton of fun with it even though I acknowledge its faults. I think if they took a bit more time to refine the stage design and knock back mechanics as well as including more direct references to existing properties, it could be something really special. The co-op play of that mode gave us something that Smash has never really had before. There aren’t a whole lot of co-op platformers with simultaneous play in general and being able to play one with many of our favorite characters was awesome despite its imperfections. The mode also allowed for story and character interactions that WoL was lacking.

Thank you. I'll give WoL this, it's fun for what it tried to do and Heaven knows I actually loved seeing all of the little Nintendo references sprinkled throughout the mode. Not to mention the various characters embodied as Spirits who would probably NEVER have a ghost of a chance (lol) of appearing as (at the very least) a Trophy, but between that and the Spirit Battle mode? It felt like I was just playing Event Match after Event Match.

Say what you will about SSE's platforming, but I feel like something like that would have helped break up WoL's Spirit Battle loop a good deal.

Speaking of platforming, I feel like Smash 4 (Wii U) and Ultimate were severely lacking in such a thing, and I've found that a bit disappointing, given how Smash has always set itself apart from other fighting games because of such a thing.

As someone who is relatively easy to please, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that I would have VERY little complaints if something like Smash Run returned for Ultimate. No joke, the hours I've put into Ultimate would be far-and-away higher than any other Switch game I currently have.

Finally, I have to give SSE its props here. I'm not going to sit here and say that SSE got everything right on the first try, but I definitely had more fun with it. I'm sure I don't need to bring up SSE's cutscenes. Given how in-game interactions between the Smash Bros. cast leaves quite a bit to be desired for me these days, it would have been nice to see these folks actually TALK to each other for once, which WoL gave us... ONLY in the opening cutscene.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

That said, I don't think Captain Falcon or Ness would be cut. The simple reason is that they're the only representatives for their franchises, which despite not being active are still shown some love by Nintendo when possible. Though this is just the stock-in-trade argument, and I give more details below.

Ness isn't the only MOTHER character, you have made Lucas very sad.

 

[SPEN18]

Ness isn't the only MOTHER character, you have made Lucas very sad.

lol I even mentioned Lucas in the same post. From what I explained though, Ness presumably wouldn't be in consideration to be cut unless Lucas was already decided to be cut, so in that case cutting Ness would be cutting the only Mother character left. That's what I meant there.

 

[Garteam]

It was listed as such in the Gematsu leak, so yes. It outright said that there were discussions over whether or not Ness or Lucas should be cut, since they couldn't allocate enough resources to prioritize both of them, and that the other would likely be post launch DLC. Lo and behold, Ness was kept, and Lucas was the second DLC character.

I'm skeptical if this is solid enough to really say Ness was considered to be cut from Smash for. The initial Gematsu leak's list was undoubtedly true, but some of the later claims were somewhat suspect. Putting aside "Enjoy Shulk, my friends!", it seems odd that the leaker would be deeply attached enough to Smash for Wii U/3DS' later development to know Lucas was cut mid-development, but not closely attached enough to know Chrom and the Chorus Kids were cut. A lot of people were also speculating that one of the Mother boys had been cut by the end of Smash for's speculation period, so it's not like this was a particularly novel or creative claim.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

As someone who doesn't think Puff is untouchable and has even cut her from hypothetical rosters in the past, you're way too hung up on Puff's status as an original 12.

Considering the entire context of the conversation was about Jigglypuff being "safe" because Original 12, it really is a wonder why that point is being focused on, hmm.

 

[CannonStreak]

If we are still talking about any of the original 12 characters being cut, I would like to say that if there were a reboot of Smash Bros., possibly a hard reboot, I think cuts for any of those 12 characters would be more likely due to relevance reasons. I could see Ness, Captain Falcon and maybe Fox not being in at least the first game of a potential reboot.

Just wanted to get something off my mind.

 

[fogbadge]

I feel we often forget when we talk about cuts that they might not be permanent

 

[CannonStreak]

I feel we often forget when we talk about cuts that they might not be permanent

Of course. I may have forgotten that for a second, but yeah, any character can return, and now that characters like Young Link have returned in Ultimate, I do not think it would be bad to say that we could get a three Links scenario again, whether it is a second "Everyone is Here" event or not.

 

[Opossum]

Of course. I may have forgotten that for a second, but yeah, any character can return, and now that characters like Young Link have returned in Ultimate, I do not think it would be bad to say that we could get a three Links scenario again, whether it is a second "Everyone is Here" event or not.

That... I'd absolutely contest.

It's one thing to bring back a niche but well liked character like Lucas as DLC, but genuinely I don't think a three Link scenario would ever happen outside of Everyone Is Here.

The closest I could see is us having only base Link for the base game and then adding Toon Link as DLC, and even that seems like a stretch considering how far reaching the cuts are likely to be.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think by game 3 into a successful fighter (anyone remember wondering where Sonya Blade or Kano were in MK2?) most devs including Mr. Sakurai have a solid and very personal list of characters they'd want in a sequel. When 4 got rid of some characters I was surprised but - Hindsight and stuff... anyway yeah so even 4 only cut Wolf without a reason ... "Time" eh whatever I'd have to ask him. So since the first 12 haven't been dropped yet, it's like dropping any "first" -solidified- roster

Spoiler: poor Tekken [wiki]

Only three characters have been playable in all eight main Tekken installments to date: Yoshimitsu, Nina Williams, and Paul Phoenix. While King and Kuma also have been playable in all the games but as two different characters, with King I and Kuma I being in first two games and King II and Kuma II being in remaining games.

Four characters: Heihachi Mishima, Kazuya Mishima, Marshall Law, and Lee Chaolan would come close, having been playable in seven installments. Jack...

... Point being 7 games worth of the same characters and more at just under in 6 games.

Jiggs having been considered for what I'm assuming is time and resource reasons is maybe unimportant at this point because now we're 3 games deep into a Bamco fighter and they know who's OG.

Put another way, if Kirby gets cut, and/or they change how Kirby is made so much that Jigglypuff can't be easily made from him if that's even still a thing, then I'll worry about Jigglypuff not being in the next Smash.

 

[Ivander]

If Peach is the equivalent of Cammy, then who's the equivalent of Chun-Li in Smash.

Samus. Much like how Chun-Li was the first female fighter for Street Fighter and originally the only female fighter in Street Fighter 2, Samus was the first female fighter for Smash Bros. and arguably the only female fighter in Smash 64, considering Jigglypuff could be male or female and their gender in Smash 64 is never specified. Heck, Chun-Li was 1 out of 8 Playable fighters in SF2 and when you first start Smash 64, you have 8 fighters to choose from and Samus is one of them.

Also helps that both have a job that involved hunting criminals, their father was killed by an enemy they consider their nemesis(Ridley and M.Bison), they have endings that put them in casual wear and taking off their hairbands to reveal long flowing hair, seriously the 80s and 90s often had alot of similarities between characters, stories and whatnot, and we have people who say originality was lost when we got to the 2000s.

 

[Zerp]

I like how everyone's talking about Jigglypuff cuts and nobody has brought up the elephant in the room yet. Like, I agree with you all that the original 12 isn't a real thing. And, I also agree Puff isn't untouchable in general but uh guys... Gen 9 is literally the worst time to cut the character since like Gen 2? The whole "Puff is not relevant" thing kinda died this generation lol. Jigglypuff is all over Paldea and uh, you know, Scream Tail exists? Literally the only Pokémon in Smash who got a paradox form too, not even Pikachu and Charizard have one. Why would this time be the one where they get cut for "being irrelevant" and not say, Brawl or Smash 4 when they actually were irrelevant?

Most plausible scenario for Jigglypuff getting the axe this generation is literally just being replaced by a prehistoric Jigglypuff lol.

 

[CannonStreak]

That... I'd absolutely contest.

It's one thing to bring back a niche but well liked character like Lucas as DLC, but genuinely I don't think a three Link scenario would ever happen outside of Everyone Is Here.

The closest I could see is us having only base Link for the base game and then adding Toon Link as DLC, and even that seems like a stretch considering how far reaching the cuts are likely to be.

I do appreciate you contesting this, but I would say it is not entirely out of the blue. Then again, I do see that Young Link in particular could be arguably just there for "Everyone is Here", like GoldenYuiitusin said in a debate with myself and him earlier. Me? I still see that a Young Link, or a three Links scenario could happen and does not have to be limited to "Everyone is Here". Sure, Young Link may need popularity to make that happen, which I do not see him having, but while it could be contested, I would not rule it out. Sure, a three Links happening again in any game may be superfluous, but I can see it happening, even if the idea is rather contestable. That said, I can see Link and Toon Link in base game next game and Young Link making it in as a DLC character. A likely scenario? No. But while Smash 4, especially on the 3DS may have had its limits for some characters, Ultimate had all returning characters, and Smash 4 did not get much DLC outside what it did because the Wii U was a sinking ship, which makes me think that with Ultimate being the next game and some circumstances between the two games, more characters could have been included as DLC for Smash 4. Yeah, I know, this may or may NOT have included Young Link at that time.

But more importantly, it would not be the cases on what happened before Smash Bros. Ultimate, but after and maybe during it that makes me rather think that, while it may not be likely, a three Links scenario could happen again.

But yeah, I do appreciate your contesting this.

 

[Curious Villager]

I like how everyone's talking about Jigglypuff cuts and nobody has brought up the elephant in the room yet. Like, I agree with you all that the original 12 isn't a real thing. And, I also agree Puff isn't untouchable in general but uh guys... Gen 9 is literally the worst time to cut the character since like Gen 2? The whole "Puff is not relevant" thing kinda died this generation lol. Jigglypuff is all over Paldea and uh, you know, Scream Tail exists? Literally the only Pokémon in Smash who got a paradox form too, not even Pikachu and Charizard have one. Why would this time be the one where they get cut for "being irrelevant" and not say, Brawl or Smash 4 when they actually were irrelevant?

Most plausible scenario for Jigglypuff getting the axe this generation is literally just being replaced by a prehistoric Jigglypuff lol.

I mean, the whole original 12 arguments is mostly just a thinly veiled "Will Jigglypuff get cut?" debates at the end of the day anyway. With some Ness's, Fox's and Captain Falcon's occasionally briefly sprinkled around here and there and quickly brushed aside in the same posts.

But yeah, as far as "relevancy" goes, right now Jigg's has the least amount of reasons as any to get cut at this point when it has been given some attention recently from the Pokemon company and GameFreak, Not to mention, Pichu and probably a couple other Pokemon veterans that would take the fall before it anyway...

 

[CannonStreak]

Hey guys, I just had the funniest thought of something that may never happen in Smash Bros. You know the option in more recent Smash Bros. games that turn off stage gimmicks and hazards? Well, I thought of the idea to turn off character gimmicks just now. Ice Climbers consists of one character, either Pyra and Mythra must be chosen, but not two of them in one character, that kind of stuff.

Like I said, it may never happen, but I thought it was funny enough to share.

By the way, didn't someone here say we should not talk about character cuts again? I mean, is it really hard to avoid that, or do we have nothing else to talk about?

 

[BritishGuy54]

Hey guys, I just had the funniest thought of something that may never happen in Smash Bros. You know the option in more recent Smash Bros. games that turn off stage gimmicks and hazards? Well, I thought of the idea to turn off character gimmicks just now. Ice Climbers consists of one character, either Pyra and Mythra must be chosen, but not two of them in one character, that kind of stuff.

Like I said, it may never happen, but I thought it was funny enough to share.

By the way, didn't someone here say we should not talk about character cuts again? I mean, is it really hard to avoid that, or do we have nothing else to talk about?

It would likely be implemented prior to the CSS. And perhaps a supplemental move to compensate.

Character cuts being a topic is just inevitable. It shouldn’t be simply ignored, but I understand how grating and annoying it must be.

 

[CannonStreak]

It would likely be implemented prior to the CSS. And perhaps a supplemental move to compensate.

Character cuts being a topic is just inevitable. It shouldn’t be simply ignored, but I understand how grating and annoying it must be.

I see.

Also, yeah, I figured character cuts was an inevitable topic. I wonder why that person thought it would be an effective idea to say we shouldn't talk about such a thing anymore.....when it is inevitable as you said?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Lucas is allegedly "particularly popular".
I can see that being the case, you meet him a lot in online play and he's still featured in memes and such pretty often. Plus he's a relatively easy character to understand, more than Ness probably.
I know he has the least "external" reasons to be brought back than anyone else, but him being particularly well-liked as a Smash fighter might end up being his saving grace (again).

 

[darkvortex]

is it me or do these spirit events feel like a countdown to something ?

Not really in my opinion. I don't doubt something smash will happen in the next couple of years but I doubt this year, unless it's just an enhanced port of ultimate. I think they where just working on the game anyway fort he does update and they three something extra in.

 

[RileyXY1]

Lucas is allegedly "particularly popular".
I can see that being the case, you meet him a lot in online play and he's still featured in memes and such pretty often. Plus he's a relatively easy character to understand, more than Ness probably.
I know he has the least "external" reasons to be brought back than anyone else, but him being particularly well-liked as a Smash fighter might end up being his saving grace (again).

But the fact that his game still hasn't been localized after 18 years might ultimately be his undoing. Ness was already prioritized over him in Smash 4 after all.

 

[fogbadge]

That... I'd absolutely contest.

It's one thing to bring back a niche but well liked character like Lucas as DLC, but genuinely I don't think a three Link scenario would ever happen outside of Everyone Is Here.

The closest I could see is us having only base Link for the base game and then adding Toon Link as DLC, and even that seems like a stretch considering how far reaching the cuts are likely to be.

how about the incredibly unlikely scenario where we get totem link?

 

[CannonStreak]

Not really in my opinion. I don't doubt something smash will happen in the next couple of years but I doubt this year, unless it's just an enhanced port of ultimate. I think they where just working on the game anyway fort he does update and they three something extra in.

I do personally think it IS a countdown to something. However, to be on the safe side, I say it won't be something big.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That... I'd absolutely contest.

It's one thing to bring back a niche but well liked character like Lucas as DLC, but genuinely I don't think a three Link scenario would ever happen outside of Everyone Is Here.

The closest I could see is us having only base Link for the base game and then adding Toon Link as DLC, and even that seems like a stretch considering how far reaching the cuts are likely to be.

I do think Toon Link would be a base game addition purely because the Smash team seems to think a younger Link is important.

Regardless we certainly aren't getting three Links again. Young Link isn't as easy to make as Doc is, so I doubt he can be a last minute echo.

 

[fogbadge]

But the fact that his game still hasn't been localized after 18 years might ultimately be his undoing. Ness was already prioritized over him in Smash 4 after all.

it took 26 years for the first to get localized

 

[CannonStreak]

I do think Toon Link would be a base game addition purely because the Smash team seems to think a younger Link is important.

Regardless we certainly aren't getting three Links again. Young Link isn't as easy to make as Doc is, so I doubt he can be a last minute echo.

Um, not that I am arguing with your stance, except I believe it is Young Link being a clone, not an echo. Same with Dr. Mario if you meant the same thing for him, unless I am missing something on what you are saying for both?

 

[Opossum]

it took 26 years for the first to get localized

They already had Earthbound Beginnings translated back in the NES days. Prototypes had existed for a long, long time. They didn't release it because it wasn't considered economically viable.

Mother 3's issue is that releasing it outside of Japan could literally cost a fortune in legal fees because of the music. It's not at all the same situation.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Um, not that I am arguing with your stance, except I believe it is Young Link being a clone, not an echo. Same with Dr. Mario if you meant the same thing for him, unless I am missing something on what you are saying for both?

I'm saying Doc works well as a last minute addition. Young Link is so different now, that I doubt he'd be feasible as one.

 

[fogbadge]

They already had Earthbound Beginnings translated back in the NES days. Prototypes had existed for a long, long time. They didn't release it because it wasn't considered economically viable.

Mother 3's issue is that releasing it outside of Japan could literally cost a fortune in legal fees because of the music. It's not at all the same situation.

did they really? oh well disregard the previous statement

there goes my hopes for captain rainbow

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

But the fact that his game still hasn't been localized after 18 years might ultimately be his undoing. Ness was already prioritized over him in Smash 4 after all.

On the other hand, Mother 3 was already a lost cause even during Smash 4, and he was still one of the few veterans to not need Ultimate to get brought back.

 

[Opossum]

did they really? oh well disregard the previous statement

there goes my hopes for captain rainbow

I'm...not sure what this has to do with Captain Rainbow at all.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'm saying Doc works well as a last minute addition. Young Link is so different now, that I doubt he'd be feasible as one.

That makes sense.

But wasn't the data that would have been used for those Melee characters for Smash 4 on the Gamecube not compatible with the 3DS and Wii U by then? I mean, that must be the reason why most Melee characters did not get in the fourth Smash Bros., some initially in base game, but later DLC. I mean, they had to redo the characters to make them part of Smash 4, and since Young Link was in Ultimate, provided they don't wait until a future console that becomes incompatible with the Switch's workings, maybe it could be easier to bring him back now, if you know what I mean?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To back track a bit. I do think that Ness is effectively untouchable.

People bring up Smash 4 and I say it actually proves he's here to stay. Gematsu said they were talking about keeping either Ness or Lucas. They ended up choosing Ness for the base game. There were never any talks about removing Earthbound as a franchise. Ness was just chosen to be the de facto representative.

I'd say that the whole discussion with Smash 4 proves he isn't going anywhere, because Lucas was deemed less essential than Ness and Earthbound as a franchise is here to stay.

 

[darkvortex]

I feel like Nintendo being aware of the popularity of the series, the big fanfare they did for putting it on VC, and it leading to stuff like Undertale, means Ness is staying. I also can't see falcon going. He is smash bros more than anyone else, he has lived through smash, and f-zero did just get a new project

 

[fogbadge]

I'm...not sure what this has to do with Captain Rainbow at all.

Nintendo might have started randomly translating their previously Japan only games

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nintendo might have started randomly translating their previously Japan only games

?

What does this have to do with Mother 3?

I don't think Captain Rainbow is going to be translated because part of it involves proving Birdo is a girl because she has a certain kind of sex toy.

I'm surprised that flew even in Japan, frankly.

 

[Opossum]

Nintendo might have started randomly translating their previously Japan only games

I think you're missing the point. My point was that the problem with Mother 3 specifically is that the game is a lawsuit minefield waiting to happen if it ever releases outside of Japan. That has nothing to do with Captain Rainbow (who has a bunch of other issues, but I digress).