Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, shadow is very tied to sonic, and was designed after super sonic, but so was Luigi after mario, they both are there own characters now and yes, luigi can use mario's moves, but it doesn't show what luigi and he nowadays, he's his completely own character, same with shadow.

Luigi started as a clone in Smash, with barely any more differences than an Echo(though he did have actual differences that would mean he couldn't be an Echo anyway).

Isabelles issue wasn't just proportions, most of villagers moves in the animal crossing series, she doesn't use. Yes, they fixed this but it's good to keep in mind.

Main issue was still proportions to begin with. If she had the same ones, she'd be an Echo easily. Or a regular clone with somewhat re-skinned moves. She's only a semi-clone because she has to have her moves redone a bit due to the fact she can't literally use the same animations simply like that. The personality bit is a secondary nature.

And no, he never uses that damned spindash, at least not enough that it's one of his core moves, sonic's moveset only works because it's based o moves he does in the games. Shadow can still USE a spindash, it's just the fact that it shouldn't be his main way of mobility and damage like it is to sonic.

Which doesn't matter for Echoes, really. It's a matter of can. And he can use it in most of his appearances. That's all it takes.

Shadow doesn't have the same hyper energy that sonic has, yes personality doesn't stop you from being an echo, but frankly, shadows moves just don't reflect who he is in the game and outside of the game, Shadow's more than just a sonic clone, he's his own character and a lot more defined than dark samus and dark pit, Shadow deserves more than just an echo, something that I can surely see the devs seeing. I just have this gut feeling that if shadows going to be playable, he'll either be a semi-echo or a full newcomer.

Shadow's literally a Sonic clone by all means, just in a unique way.

He's not really any more defined than Dark Samus or Dark Pit. They both have tons of unique abilities on their own they can use. He fits just as well as they do. He was literally created as a dark Sonic for the game itself. That's his purpose. He evolved like others did, sure. That's not really relevant though when it comes to being added into Smash. New moves entirely aren't needed at all to represent him properly. A few animation changes, a possibly different Final Smash, his own taunts, some Chaos aesthetics. Easy.

 

[Ninjaed]

Problem is that I don't see why Shadow would get in before Eggman. Same for Tails. A Sonic game is incomplete without Sonic or Eggman. He's also more famous and much much more unique. His inclusion would bring much more to Smash than Shadow's or Tails's.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Problem is that I don't see why Shadow would get in before Eggman. Same for Tails. A Sonic game is incomplete without Sonic or Eggman. He's also more famous and much much more unique. His inclusion would bring much more to Smash than Shadow's or Tails's.

I agree. Eggman is a better antagonist, or just edgy character, than Shadow too.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Problem is that I don't see why Shadow would get in before Eggman. Same for Tails. A Sonic game is incomplete without Sonic or Eggman. He's also more famous and much much more unique. His inclusion would bring much more to Smash than Shadow's or Tails's.

I don’t know how you can say Eggman is more famous than Shadow. By this day and age, Shadow is the number two Sonic character for most people.

 

[Ninjaed]

I don’t know how you can say Eggman is more famous than Shadow. By this day and age, Shadow is the number two Sonic character for most people.

Maybe famous wasn't the right word. More well-known or at least more significant. Shadow is indeed #2 in terms of popularity, but Eggman is pivotal to any Sonic game, moreso than anyone else beside Sonic. Smash would benefit more from Eggman than from Shadow, is what I think.

 

[RileyXY1]

Maybe famous wasn't the right word. More well-known or at least more significant. Shadow is indeed #2 in terms of popularity, but Eggman is pivotal to any Sonic game, moreso than anyone else beside Sonic. Smash would benefit more from Eggman than from Shadow, is what I think.

I think that Eggman is more likely to be a boss than a playable character.

 

[SonicMario]

Problem is that I don't see why Shadow would get in before Eggman. Same for Tails. A Sonic game is incomplete without Sonic or Eggman. He's also more famous and much much more unique. His inclusion would bring much more to Smash than Shadow's or Tails's.

Eggman isn't as popular as a Smash request compared to either Shadow or Tails. And feels more fitting to be a Boss or a Dr. Wily type assist trophy first (I don't think we get many asking for Wily to be the next Megaman rep when there's Protoman, Bass, or Zero). Tails had the background cameo and Mii costume while Eggman has just been a trophy/sticker. Plus it took forever to add more villains in Smash like Ridley and K. Rool to begin with even though they were first party. I'm not sure how we're going to get a 3rd party villain so easily. The only 3rd party villain I could see show up soon enough is Heihachi, but that's an entirely different case of villain where you could include Heihachi and you could get away with that being it for Tekken.

And Shadow can only get in first if he's an echo fighter and there's no room for unique/Semi-clone Sonic characters.

Again, not that it matters since Sonic looks to be going alone again this time. But I would dare say, that if Sonic ever got a non-echo. Tails would come first. I feel the pull of having Mario & Luigi Vs. Sonic & Tails would be pretty strong. Not that Mario & Sonic Vs. Eggman & Bowser in Smash would be any less epic. But Tails just kind of has more history Smash-wise. He was even with Sonic in that old EGM April Fools Melee prank, which no doubt has probably garnered many fans around him. I kind of attribute that old prank to the huge demand Sonic got for Brawl in the first place. Tails support obviously wouldn't be as loud as getting Sonic himself because it seemed impossible due to how limited 3rd party spots were until Ultimate happened (Reminder that we'll already have 10 in the base game compared to how we only got 2 and 3 respectively for Brawl and Smash 4), but there's no doubt it's been around nearly just as long.

 

[Daedulus]

Luigi started as a clone in Smash, with barely any more differences than an Echo(though he did have actual differences that would mean he couldn't be an Echo anyway).


Main issue was still proportions to begin with. If she had the same ones, she'd be an Echo easily. Or a regular clone with somewhat re-skinned moves. She's only a semi-clone because she has to have her moves redone a bit due to the fact she can't literally use the same animations simply like that. The personality bit is a secondary nature.


Which doesn't matter for Echoes, really. It's a matter of can. And he can use it in most of his appearances. That's all it takes.


Shadow's literally a Sonic clone by all means, just in a unique way.

He's not really any more defined than Dark Samus or Dark Pit. They both have tons of unique abilities on their own they can use. He fits just as well as they do. He was literally created as a dark Sonic for the game itself. That's his purpose. He evolved like others did, sure. That's not really relevant though when it comes to being added into Smash. New moves entirely aren't needed at all to represent him properly. A few animation changes, a possibly different Final Smash, his own taunts, some Chaos aesthetics. Easy.

1. Yeah and now luigi has his own moves set and his own moves know that he's his own defined character.

2. Yeah the main thing was proportions, but you said it yourself that they remolded her moves.

3. Yes, he is a sonic clone in universe, does that make him the same as sonic? No. Just like every other twin brother and clone in media history, they can be different. And are you joking?! Dark pit has been in 1 GAME, he hasn't evolved because he hasn't gotten the Chance to evolve. Dark Samus... yeah she or he(I don't care) has been in a few games... But she's also dead.... And from a series that rarely gets mainline games.... and literally just Samus' body taken over. She is her own character but, now do you get were I'm coming from? Shadow has changed A LOT SINCE HIS DEBUT, DS and DP have not.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Dark Samus isn't Samus with her body taken over.

Dark Samus is Metroid Prime using a corrupted power suit. She's an alien, and uses a lot of different moves. (I haven't really played Metroid but I've seen people say this, and it's pretty obvious anyway from a cutscene/gameplay video and fanart).

The problem isn't that Shadow can't have his own unique moves, because no, he definitely can (and honestly I'd rather he use some of his Chaos moves, anyway), but it's that Shadow can also be a straight-up clone of Sonic moveset-wise, meaning Sakurai and his team would probably happily add him as an Echo if they wanted to since it takes a lot less development time.

 

[Daedulus]

Dark Samus isn't Samus with her body taken over.

Dark Samus is Metroid Prime using a corrupted power suit. She's an alien, and uses a lot of different moves. (I haven't played Metroid but I've seen people say this, and it's pretty obvious anyway from a cutscene and fanart).

The problem isn't that Shadow can't have his own unique moves, because no, he definitely can (and honestly I'd rather he use some of his Chaos moves, anyway), but it's that Shadow can also be a straight-up clone of Sonic moveset-wise, meaning Sakurai and his team would probably happily add him as an Echo if they wanted to since it takes a lot less development time.

Oh, sorry I've only played the metroid game on 3ds. I thought she was samus' body taken over.

Yes, it would be easier to just make him a clone, but sakurai doesn't put that low level effort into his characters and 2 I think everybody would rather have a moveset that reflects the character.

 

[Midoriki]

Shadow is indeed #2 in terms of popularity

Are there official popularity polls out for Sonic characters somewhere? Some of the unofficial one's I've seen actually put Shadow as #1 but polls localized to a fan group mean very little about the entire player base

I'm curious if Tails is "officially" more popular than Knuckles, because if so Knuckles being less popular and arriving later in the series but getting an assist when Tails didn't might point to Tails as a relatively likely DLC character.


And in-case anyone feels that Sonic already having 2 stages means getting a DLC character is less likely:

If we count Pokemon Trainer and Mii fighter as one fighter each, and count Yoshi's Island and Wario Ware as their own series (based on the official site)
11 of the 32 series with fighters have more stages than fighters, or 12 If we don't count echos.
The average number of stages per fighters by series is ~1.27, or ~1.34 if we don't count echos.

So having 3 stages and 2 fighters from a series would be pretty normal. Animal Crossing has exactly that, as does Kid Icarus if we (again) don't count echos.

 

[TheCJBrine]

tbh if they left out a major character even as a Spirit, i.e. let's assume King K. Rool wasn't even playable in the base-game, it'd be very odd since he's the main villain of the DK games, not to mention he showed up as a trophy in each Smash game since Melee, so it would raise eyebrows and expectations for him to show up as DLC.

So either:

1. Nintendo, Sakurai, and the dev team make him for DLC.

or

2. Everyone is Disappointed!

This same logic could also be used for other major characters that aren't playable, and even this: let's assume we get literally every Mario enemy as a Spirit except for Piranha Plant. Now, we already know the plant is coming, but it'd still be odd especially if we didn't know about PP beforehand.

 

[SonicMario]

Are there official popularity polls out for Sonic characters somewhere? Some of the unofficial one's I've seen actually put Shadow as #1 but polls localized to a fan group mean very little about the entire player base

I'm curious if Tails is "officially" more popular than Knuckles, because if so Knuckles being less popular and arriving later in the series but getting an assist when Tails didn't might point to Tails as a relatively likely DLC character.


And in-case anyone feels that Sonic already having 2 stages means getting a DLC character is less likely:

If we count Pokemon Trainer and Mii fighter as one fighter each, and count Yoshi's Island and Wario Ware as their own series (based on the official site)
12 of the 32 series with fighters have more stages than fighters, or 13 If we don't count echos.
The average number of stages per fighters by series is ~1.3, or ~1.37 if we don't count echos.

So having 3 stages and 2 fighters from a series would be pretty normal. Animal Crossing has exactly that, as does Kid Icarus if we (again) don't count echos.

I do think Shadow probably is #2 in popularity when you consider just the Sonic fanbase. But in terms of like overall recognizability and awareness. Classic characters like Tails and Knuckles strike a chord with not just the Sonic fanbase but general gaming fans in general since they've been there from nearly the very beginning. Tails being one of the few characters with a Luigi style recognizability that's nearly as synonymous with the franchise as the title character.

I wish I could say Tails is a likely character. As he's the only one I could ever want else over anything. It's just hard for me to think that out of the 5 possible spots a 2nd Sonic character might not be a priority in comparison to unrepresented 3rd parties or more promotional 1st parties.

I REALLY would love Tails to make it. But at this point I think I'd have to hope for either another fighter pass or echoes still being a thing and fitting Tails into a more Ken-style echo. Where he's labeled as an echo, but actually has a pretty amazing amount of differences all things considered. Though Ken and Ryu still kind of share a body type, while Tails is slightly smaller and not in Sonic's shape. So even the latter option is in incredible doubt.

 

[GoodGrief741]

1. Yeah and now luigi has his own moves set and his own moves know that he's his own defined character.

2. Yeah the main thing was proportions, but you said it yourself that they remolded her moves.

3. Yes, he is a sonic clone in universe, does that make him the same as sonic? No. Just like every other twin brother and clone in media history, they can be different. And are you joking?! Dark pit has been in 1 GAME, he hasn't evolved because he hasn't gotten the Chance to evolve. Dark Samus... yeah she or he(I don't care) has been in a few games... But she's also dead.... And from a series that rarely gets mainline games.... and literally just Samus' body taken over. She is her own character but, now do you get were I'm coming from? Shadow has changed A LOT SINCE HIS DEBUT, DS and DP have not.

Dark Pit gets quite a lot of character development in Uprising. I wonder, have you actually played it or are you talking about characters you don’t know?

 

[Midoriki]

I wish I could say Tails is a likely character. As he's the only one I could ever want else over anything. It's just hard for me to think that out of the 5 possible spots a 2nd Sonic character might not be a priority in comparison to unrepresented 3rd parties or more promotional 1st parties.

If you mean Nintendo prioritizing these characters over Tails I disagree. I don't think there are that many characters Nintendo would prioritize over Tails.

I'm guessing Nintendo's primary motivation for selecting characters for DLC was simply selling the DLC, with additional promotions as a nice bonus. We don't know exactly how the Smash 4 DLC fighters were picked, but 3 being veterans and 2 having limited representation on Nintendo systems makes me think Nintendo cares at least as much about a character's ability to sell DLC to Smash Players as their ability to promote other games.

The only 1st party character I think would maybe make more money Tails would be An 8th Gen Pokemon, since Pokemon is always going to sell well and Nintendo gets to make some gen 8 Pokemon Hype. Another Mario, Zelda, or DK rep would have a decent chance too just because those games sell well.

The only 3rd party characters I think could maybe make more money than Tails are Steve, Chocobo, and Crash Bandicoot. GTA, Dragon Quest, Halo, Assassin's Creed, Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, and Monster Hunter have sold well enough to compete with a Sonic rep, but lack a defining iconic rep and/or have significantly less intersection and/or might be too violent for Smash in Nintendo's eyes.

Any other series is either lacking a viable rep or has sold so many fewer games than the Sonic series that Tails would probably sell as good or better than their potential reps. (No offense to these series, Sonic is just incredibly popular)

So in my opinion there are no more than 4-7 characters that Nintendo would prioritize over Tails as fighter DLC. Whether or not Sakurai would prioritize Tails as a fighter is a much harder question, but I'd imagine its at least not a hard no.

I'd give very good odds for Tails being on the list of characters Nintendo gave Sakurai to pick fighters from. I'd give decent odds that Sakurai would then pick Tails from that list. I'd still be hopeful for Tails

 

[Daedulus]

Dark Pit gets quite a lot of character development in Uprising. I wonder, have you actually played it or are you talking about characters you don’t know?

Yah, he does get character devopment, but not like shadow or dark samus, and yes, I've played up to chapter 7.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Honestly when I saw Isabelle’s reasons for not being a echo

That told me no way shadow can be a sonic echo

He’s too connect to chaos control and the personalities are different

 

[PokéfreakofBACON]

Yah, he does get character devopment, but not like shadow or dark samus, and yes, I've played up to chapter 7.

There are 25 chapters. You're not even halfway through the game.

 

[Daedulus]

There are 25 chapters. You're not even halfway through the game.

I know, played it before Pokemon sun came out and yeah.... Do you see were this is going? It's somewhere deep in my backlog. I still played through the Dark Pit chapter though.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Isaac, Paper Mario, Banadana Dee, Phoenix Wright. I'll trade all three never getting into Smash if it meant I could get Isaac.

Do you mean Isaac from Golden Sun? He's has already been de-confirmed to be an assist trophy.

Any thoughts on a Monster Hunter character making their way into Ultimate as DLC?

 

[GoodGrief741]

Do you mean Isaac from Golden Sun? He's has already been de-confirmed to be an assist trophy.

Well, you asked who people wanted.

Any thoughts on a Monster Hunter character making their way into Ultimate as DLC?

I don’t know if it will happen. The fact that we have content in base game implies that they think the game is correctly represented by its monsters (which I kind of agree with)

 

[Ninjaed]

Do you mean Isaac from Golden Sun? He's has already been de-confirmed to be an assist trophy.

In fact, we don't know for certain. I'll quote KMDP who brought up several good points on the subject:

You know...

Why would ATs and Spirits disconfirm characters anyway?

Okay, hear me out. Look, in order to force it so that ATs and Spirits don't overlap with 1st Party (and some 3rd Party) DLC characters, those characters would have to not show up in any form whatsoever within the game (at least in the parts a normal player can see).

Let's say they were making (pulling a character we know is a spirit) Dixie Kong as a DLC fighter, when people get the game, fans will realise very quickly that Dixie is strangely missing from all parts of the game. This would immediately give away that they are doing something with Dixie (because she recently appeared in Tropical Freeze, so there's no way anyone would be justified in saying she's not important enough to show up or some claptrap like that).

This goes similarly with my thoughts on Isaac; let's say they're making Isaac as a DLC character, they would be justified in not including him as an Assist Trophy because he'll show up later, but that creates a minor problem; because of the general secrecy surrounding character inclusions, fans of Isaac will be left wondering where Isaac was had he not shown up as an AT, not only that, but there are Golden Sun spirits in the game (Felix and Matthew have been discovered), so if Felix and Matthew were spirits and Isaac was a no-show? That'd elicit a big "HMMMMMMMMMMM!" from the fans.

If Golden Sun didn't appear at all, then that'd send the wrong message to the fans (that Golden Sun isn't important enough to get into Smash).

What's better? Causing minor disappointment by introducing Isaac as an Assist Trophy before (hypothetically) DLC, or causing major disappointment (and/or rampant conspiracies) by not having him at all until (again, hypothetically) DLC? Not only that, but Isaac's appearance spurred Golden Sun fans to rally together to show their love for the franchise, which might not have happened if Isaac wasn't an Assist Trophy (because of crushed spirits).

I don't know, maybe I'm rambling.

In Isaac's case, the game doesn't even feature his battle theme for now (though we did hear the medley theme from Brawl remix). Which is very odd considering other assist trophies like Guile had their new theme playing when revealed. Speculations? Obviously. But Smash Bros is Sakurai's game. His game, his rules. If he wants to upgrade an assist trophy for whatever reasons (including the WOW factor, setting the community ablaze with excitement), you can be bloody sure he will. Isaac can be replaced by Matthew in his trophy, or Shadow by Silver (who can also use Chaos Control).

 

[JohnKnight416]

I don’t know if it will happen. The fact that we have content in base game implies that they think the game is correctly represented by its monsters (which I kind of agree with)

I mean, we already have Rathalos as an Assist Trophy / Boss, so it's possible that Sakurai has his mind set on developing a playable monster hunter character as DLC

In fact, we don't know for certain. I'll quote KMDP who brought up several good points on the subject:



In Isaac's case, the game doesn't even feature his battle theme for now (though we did hear the medley theme from Brawl remix). Which is very odd considering other assist trophies like Guile had their new theme playing when revealed. Speculations? Obviously. But Smash Bros is Sakurai's game. His game, his rules. If he wants to upgrade an assist trophy for whatever reasons (including the WOW factor, setting the community ablaze with excitement), you can be bloody sure he will. Isaac can be replaced by Matthew in his trophy, or Shadow by Silver (who can also use Chaos Control).

But these are just speculations. Sorry but they don't exactly convince me that Isaac will suddenly turn out to be a playable character by any chance whatsoever. Especially since the 11.1.2018 Smash Direct clearly showed us that Isaac is officially an Assist trophy in Ultimate.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Sorry, I should've mention what sort of characters do you want to see in Ultimate that haven't been de-confirmed already.

Well, we know every character that will be in Ultimate, so every character that isn’t in is disconfirmed.

Unless you mean for DLC? Because if so, there’s an abundant group of people who think Assist Trophies don’t disconfirm characters for DLC.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Issac assist trophy appears at 1:28.

Look, I get that some ppl really want certain characters in Ultimate as playable characters, but how are you gonna make these characters into playable DLC characters when they've already been assigned to be Assist Trophies?

I honestly don't understand why exactly do some people think Assist Trophies don’t disconfirm characters for DLC?

 

[Ninjaed]

Issac assist trophy appears at 1:28.

Look, I get that some ppl really want certain characters in Ultimate as playable characters, but how are you gonna make these characters into playable DLC characters when they've already been assigned to be Assist Trophies?

Isaac can be replaced by Matthew in his trophy, or Shadow by Silver (who can also use Chaos Control).

We know Shadow, Isaac and several others have been made into assist trophies. We know their chances of making it as DLC are slim. But it's not 100% de-confirmation. If Sakurai wants to upgrade one, he will. Nothing is stopping him. "That character is already an assist trophy" - yeah so what? It's his game and Sakurai is no stranger to breaking some rules. Don't you remember?

No Sonic because no 3rd party characters? Think again!
Only named characters, no generic ones? Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.
And now, we've had Piranha Plant.

Sakurai loves his WOW factor. Again, I'm not saying you should be convinced assist trophy X or Y will be upgraded. I'm simply saying the possibility is actually not inexistent. And with so much content from other games like spirits or ATs, fans would instantly notice certain top requested characters being absent. What would be the point in not revealing the DLC roster then? "Oh, Shadow's AT has been removed, he doesn't have any spirits, no music... HMMMMMM, I wonder if there's something fishy here"!

 

[JohnKnight416]

We know Shadow, Isaac and several others have been made into assist trophies. We know their chances of making it as DLC are slim. But it's not 100% de-confirmation. If Sakurai wants to upgrade one, he will. Nothing is stopping him. "That character is already an assist trophy" - yeah so what? It's his game and Sakurai is no stranger to breaking some rules. Don't you remember?

No Sonic because no 3rd party characters? Think again!
Only named characters, no generic ones? Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.
And now, we've had Piranha Plant.

Sakurai loves his WOW factor. Again, I'm not saying you should be convinced assist trophy X or Y will be upgraded. I'm simply saying the possibility is actually not inexistent. And with so much content from other games like spirits or ATs, fans would instantly notice certain top requested characters being absent. What would be the point in not revealing the DLC roster then? "Oh, Shadow's AT has been removed, he doesn't have any spirits, no music... HMMMMMM, I wonder if there's something fishy here"!

It's true that it's up Sakurai to make whatever changes he wants in Ultimate. But adding in certain characters as Assist Trophies in the base game only to convert them into DLC characters seems a bit far fetched in all honesty especially when he officially assigned them to become Assist Trophies in the smash directs.

If he does actually try to pull that sort of stunt in the future during one of the DLC announcements for Smash Ultimate, then it'll be one of the greatest bamboozles that Sakurai has ever pulled.

I honestly wouldn't mind if Assist Trophies do actually become playable DLC characters at some point, even tho I still highly doubt that it'll happen. But knowing how much Sakurai loves to troll ppl, anything is possible.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Issac assist trophy appears at 1:28.

Look, I get that some ppl really want certain characters in Ultimate as playable characters, but how are you gonna make these characters into playable DLC characters when they've already been assigned to be Assist Trophies?

I honestly don't understand why exactly do some people think Assist Trophies don’t disconfirm characters for DLC?

Isaac literally has a son that looks identical to him that they can swap Isaac's AT out with Matthew if they wanted to

I'm not saying it's likely but it isn't out of the realm of possibility. My main focus is to help bring the Golden Sun series back over bringing Isaac to Smash at the moment anyway

 

[KMDP]

In fact, we don't know for certain. I'll quote KMDP who brought up several good points on the subject:



In Isaac's case, the game doesn't even feature his battle theme for now (though we did hear the medley theme from Brawl remix). Which is very odd considering other assist trophies like Guile had their new theme playing when revealed. Speculations? Obviously. But Smash Bros is Sakurai's game. His game, his rules. If he wants to upgrade an assist trophy for whatever reasons (including the WOW factor, setting the community ablaze with excitement), you can be bloody sure he will. Isaac can be replaced by Matthew in his trophy, or Shadow by Silver (who can also use Chaos Control).

It's a very good point that Isaac was unique in his Assist Trophy showcase.

Most other Assist Trophies, if they had a big focus (Alucard, Zero, Guile) used new music to highlight them, Isaac's the only one who used old music to highlight his appearance. Granted, this could just be a case of just not bothering to make new Golden Sun music (why, though?).

When you (over)think about it, it's kind of strange that other Assist trophies got brand new music to show them off, and Isaac... didn't. The music used to show him isn't even his theme song (It's Felix's). What? Out of the 800+ songs they have in Smash Ultimate, not one of them is a new Golden Sun song? Despite the fact that Isaac was clearly wanted enough to bring back and highlight in an AT showcase?

It's true that it's up Sakurai to make whatever changes he wants in Ultimate. But adding in certain characters as Assist Trophies in the base game only to convert them into DLC characters seems a bit far fetched in all honesty especially when he officially assigned them to become Assist Trophies in the smash directs.

If he does actually try to pull that sort of stunt in the future during one of the DLC announcements for Smash Ultimate, then it'll be one of the greatest bamboozles that Sakurai has ever pulled.

I honestly wouldn't mind if Assist Trophies do actually become playable DLC characters at some point, even tho I still highly doubt that it'll happen. But knowing how much Sakurai loves to troll ppl, anything is possible.

There's been plenty of bamboozles in Smash Ultimate already, just saying.

 

[Daedulus]

It's a very good point that Isaac was unique in his Assist Trophy showcase.

Most other Assist Trophies, if they had a big focus (Alucard, Zero, Guile) used new music to highlight them, Isaac's the only one who used old music to highlight his appearance. Granted, this could just be a case of just not bothering to make new Golden Sun music (why, though?).

When you (over)think about it, it's kind of strange that other Assist trophies got brand new music to show them off, and Isaac... didn't. The music used to show him isn't even his theme song (It's Felix's). What? Out of the 800+ songs they have in Smash Ultimate, not one of them is a new Golden Sun song? Despite the fact that Isaac was clearly wanted enough to bring back and highlight in an AT showcase?

You're lucky they even brought Isaac back, Nintendo just was either to lazy or doesn't give a ****.

 

[KMDP]

You're lucky they even brought Isaac back, Nintendo just was either to lazy or doesn't give a ****.

Sad, but true.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Issac assist trophy appears at 1:28.

Look, I get that some ppl really want certain characters in Ultimate as playable characters, but how are you gonna make these characters into playable DLC characters when they've already been assigned to be Assist Trophies?

I honestly don't understand why exactly do some people think Assist Trophies don’t disconfirm characters for DLC?

Robin can summon Chrom to beat up Chrom and The Chrome From The Fire Embull. A mediocre Isaac model helping out a higher-quality one can't be a problem if Sakurai thought that was okay.

 

[Daedulus]

I think a lot people over estimate Geno and Isaac on the ballot, source gamings chart has geno at 4.5 and Isaac at 2.5, if Waddle dee couldn't even get in with 7.9, you shouldn't expect, them to get in that's the true that a lot of people won't admit, they say that they were still highly requested and that K. rool ridely got in. But really, Ridely was the 1 biggest request in the west and k rool in japan, if people want these characters enough, they'll add them, so unless Isaac and Geno get a spike in popularity... they probably won't get in.

 

[KMDP]

Robin can summon Chrom to beat up Chrom and The Chrome From The Fire Embull. A mediocre Isaac model helping out a higher-quality one can't be a problem if Sakurai thought that was okay.

Is it wrong of me to want more mediocre knockoffs?

"It is I, the Sam from the Merturd!"

 

[Midoriki]

I have defended Waluigi's chances at being upgraded to a DLC fighter still existing, but the same logic makes me think that Isaac's are effectively 0%

The main issue is dev time. I don't see a situation existing where the devs know who the DLC fighters are but are also continuing to work on one of those characters as an assist trophy. Assist trophies probably take nearly as much effort as a fighter to develop, I highly doubt they would be willing to waste that much time even for the surprise factor.

It's reasonably likely DLC was planned before any of the assist trophies were done and assist trophies are in-fact de-confirmation

There is also a chance that some assist trophies were finished before DLC planning was finished. If your upgraded fighter of choice is a direct port and/or was ready by the demo maybe don't lose all hope.

There is almost no chance that Isaac, who wasn't a Smash 4 port and got model and move updates, was finished before the DLC fighters were planned.

Of course if there is another round of DLC fighters later, I'd say Isaac and any other assist trophy is fair game -- maybe even more likely since they already have models and move animations

 

[Ninjaed]

I have defended Waluigi's chances at being upgraded to a DLC fighter still existing, but the same logic makes me think that Isaac's are effectively 0%

The main issue is dev time. I don't see a situation existing where the devs know who the DLC fighters are but are also continuing to work on one of those characters as an assist trophy. Assist trophies probably take nearly as much effort as a fighter to develop, I highly doubt they would be willing to waste that much time even for the surprise factor.

It's reasonably likely DLC was planned before any of the assist trophies were done and assist trophies are in-fact de-confirmation

There is also a chance that some assist trophies were finished before DLC planning was finished. If your upgraded fighter of choice is a direct port and/or was ready by the demo maybe don't lose all hope.

There is almost no chance that Isaac, who wasn't a Smash 4 port and got model and move updates, was finished before the DLC fighters were planned.

Of course if there is another round of DLC fighters later, I'd say Isaac and any other assist trophy is fair game -- maybe even more likely since they already have models and move animations

Assist Trophies take way less time. You do need the modelling, the particles etc but from a gameplay perspective? It always behaves in a certain pretermined way. For fighters, you need to take player input into consideration - glitches are bound to occur and must be sniffed out. Even before that, you need to actually come up with a balanced kit, looking at every single move, tinkering with dmg/angle/knockback values as well as hitboxes and at which frames they're active. For Assist Trophies, these values matter way less because they won't see the day in the competitive scene. Assist Trophies are widely unbalanced, so these numbers hardly matter.

So basically: decide what the assist trophy does, decide on the values, create the 3D model, animate it (they only have so many animations anyway), create the particles along with it... code in the actual effect, and you're mostly done. Just need to check if it behaves as intended. That's it.

Meanwhile, fighters have to go through many many cycles of testing, seeing what clicks in the kit, what doesn't, what is fun to use/play against, what is obnoxious or meh. You also have to make sure the whole kit has a certain synergy, as well as accurately depicting the character (hence why Shadow would need chaos vibes and skating even if a Sonic clone, or why Ken has fire in his moves). Then you have to debug. Only after that can you start balancing the character, which also takes time - look at Bayonetta, despite the nerfs she can still somewhat manage to do her combo, to Sakurai's dismay. It's no easy task and takes much longer than developing an assist trophy - like the swatting flies one...

 

[Midoriki]

Meanwhile, fighters have to go through many many cycles of testing, seeing what clicks in the kit, what doesn't, what is fun to use/play against, what is obnoxious or meh.

I completely agree that fighters need *a lot* more of this, but I'd assume assist trophies get a few rounds of balance testing and tweaking too, especially the ones that can be KO'd, have more complex AI, or show up in Spirits battles. It's no where near as big a deal if an assist trophy isn't well balanced, but its still not unimportant or trivial.

You're also right that Assist trophies do take way less time than fighters. My saying "nearly as much effort as a fighter" should probably have been "second only to a fighter in effort" But I'm thinking of someone like Shovel Knight when I say that -- 3rd party rights and designers to coordinate with for character accuracy, multiple attack animations, and AI that needs to navigate all of the stages. As you point out Flies and Hand is probably closer to a stage hazard in terms of effort.

The assists that would make the most sense as fighters (imo) are mostly the higher effort assist trophies, which makes sense. Shadow, Skull Kid, and Lyn are notable exceptions though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's a very good point that Isaac was unique in his Assist Trophy showcase.

Most other Assist Trophies, if they had a big focus (Alucard, Zero, Guile) used new music to highlight them, Isaac's the only one who used old music to highlight his appearance. Granted, this could just be a case of just not bothering to make new Golden Sun music (why, though?).

When you (over)think about it, it's kind of strange that other Assist trophies got brand new music to show them off, and Isaac... didn't. The music used to show him isn't even his theme song (It's Felix's). What? Out of the 800+ songs they have in Smash Ultimate, not one of them is a new Golden Sun song? Despite the fact that Isaac was clearly wanted enough to bring back and highlight in an AT showcase?

Don't forget that Isaac is also not Third Party. Showcasing characters like that would still require the permission from the IP holder, as they overall have a say in any use of their IP. That includes cutscenes, showcasing, how they play in the game, and so on. Golden Sun is clearly not high priority on its own, but it also didn't have a third party factor that made the IP holder really really care about it. Him just being shown off is enough. Camelot seems to really not care much about the series right now. Capcom and Konami are far more protective, clearly. Camelot isn't as much.

 

[KMDP]

Don't forget that Isaac is also not Third Party. Showcasing characters like that would still require the permission from the IP holder, as they overall have a say in any use of their IP. That includes cutscenes, showcasing, how they play in the game, and so on. Golden Sun is clearly not high priority on its own, but it also didn't have a third party factor that made the IP holder really really care about it. Him just being shown off is enough. Camelot seems to really not care much about the series right now. Capcom and Konami are far more protective, clearly. Camelot isn't as much.

That's why I said "(over)think".

On a somewhat related note, the item showcase in August used new Donkey Kong Country music (specifically, a joint remix of "Simian Segue" and "Bonus Room Blitz"), naturally this eventually tied into K. Rool getting revealed in that same direct.

 

[Daedulus]

That's why I said "(over)think".

On a somewhat related note, the item showcase in August used new Donkey Kong Country music (specifically, a joint remix of "Simian Segue" and "Bonus Room Blitz"), naturally this eventually tied into K. Rool getting revealed in that same direct.

I really don't think Isaac is that popular, I mean if you look at the source gaming post, you'll see that he was only 2.9%, considering the fact that Waddle dee was super high and he's not even in smash as an assist, points to the fact that Isaac was kinda doomed from the start, in short, he didn't get enough of a push and not that many people wanted him.