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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
I really don't think Isaac is that popular, I mean if you look at the source gaming post, you'll see that he was only 2.9%, considering the fact that Waddle dee was super high and he's not even in smash as an assist, points to the fact that Isaac was kinda doomed from the start, in short, he didn't get enough of a push and not that many people wanted him.
Okay, so... I'm going to run through these points.

Isaac is currently the most popular character not already in the game on this site (at last count, he had twice as many Supporters as the 2nd Place character), and has the biggest board by far. However, even though Isaac has more than 500 supporters on this site, that doesn't mean that he's everyone's number one.

Polls like the Source Gaming one (and the ballot, to be fair) don't mean much for proving general popularity in great detail if you can only vote for one character, all it can tell you is "who are the general #1s?". Additionally, Source Gaming is just one gaming venue that held a poll, other sites held similar polls, all of which had different results (some moreso than others), the most important point is that Isaac consistently scored Top 10 in almost all of them (one of the exceptions was ResetERA, and that was apparently botted to hell and back).

This (the live reaction at Nintendo NY) shows how people feel regarding Isaac's Assist Trophy status (they also had a strong reaction to Shadow), there are also a lot of individual reactors who expressed disappointment, either for themselves or on behalf of others.

Not only that, Golden Sun sold approximately 1.7 million copies worldwide (this doesn't include sales of the sequel, just the first game); this is only slightly less than the amount Fire Emblem Awakening sold (and nobody would claim that game wasn't a huge success). Assuming most of the people who played Golden Sun liked it (Golden Sun was a major critical success, scoring highly in reviews), they'd probably want Isaac in Smash (even if he's not their number one), this is 1.7 million people (and that's not counting siblings who share copies, those who bought the VC version, and those who emulated the game).
 
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FlawedAI

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
833
Do you mean Isaac from Golden Sun? He's has already been de-confirmed to be an assist trophy.

Any thoughts on a Monster Hunter character making their way into Ultimate as DLC?
I am very much aware Isaac's an Assist, but many different circumstances lead me to not just want him in the game, but I actively believe he will be DLC (or another Golden Sun character). This is due to a variety of reasons, but the biggest one to me is his overwhelming popularity and other teases, like the Rathalos tweet, not to mention Isaac's model doesn't look the best. I have a whole conspiracy theory on this, but I don't think you want to hear it, so I'll just end this here.
 

JohnKnight416

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Messages
297
NNID
Reddemonknight
I am very much aware Isaac's an Assist, but many different circumstances lead me to not just want him in the game, but I actively believe he will be DLC (or another Golden Sun character). This is due to a variety of reasons, but the biggest one to me is his overwhelming popularity and other teases, like the Rathalos tweet, not to mention Isaac's model doesn't look the best. I have a whole conspiracy theory on this, but I don't think you want to hear it, so I'll just end this here.
I wouldn't mind hearing your theory. It might not convince me that Isaac still has a chance at becoming playable in smash, but I'll still hear you out nonetheless.
 
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KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
I am very much aware Isaac's an Assist, but many different circumstances lead me to not just want him in the game, but I actively believe he will be DLC (or another Golden Sun character). This is due to a variety of reasons, but the biggest one to me is his overwhelming popularity and other teases, like the Rathalos tweet, not to mention Isaac's model doesn't look the best. I have a whole conspiracy theory on this, but I don't think you want to hear it, so I'll just end this here.
I'd like to hear this theory as well.
 

FlawedAI

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
833
I wouldn't mind hearing your theory. It might not convince me that Isaac still has a chance at becoming playable in smash, but I'll still hear you out nonetheless.
So this mostly hinges on Isaac's perceived popularity in the Ballot, but here goes:

THE GREAT ISAAC IN ULTIMATE THEORY:

Let's establish one thing: Ultimate looks rushed. Some models look bad (Isaac), some strange choices were made (Chrom's still in Robin's Final Smash, what?), and in general the turnaround from Smash 4 was crazy. Sakurai had like two years to finish this game, as opposed to Brawl or Smash 4, which each had a longer development time. With the focus on bringing back vets and fan favorites, Sakurai realized Isaac was popular enough to warrant inclusion, but he couldn't be finished in time, as his Psynergy attacks would take up too much development time. So, Sakurai decides he'll bring back Isaac's Assist Trophy for the time being, since he already got the rights from Camelot (not rights, per say, but permission, I guess).

Let's back up a few months to when Sakurai got these rights. Camelot has previously stated they'd make a new Golden Sun game if fans were interested, but they didn't actually expect this amount of demand. When Sakurai goes to Camelot, they're surprised at just how popular Isaac is, and realize people actually do want more Golden Sun. This is probably in Q3 (Late Summer-Fall) 2016, giving Camelot plenty of time to start working on a new game. While they have to finish Mario Tennis Aces, they start contacting other companies, like Monolith, to help them remake the first 2 Golden Sun games to get the team used to working on Golden Sun. Once Mario Tennis wraps up the pre-launch development, most of its team is sent to help with Golden Sun, but the game still needs more time, and it finally projected to release sometime (probably late) in 2019, prime opportunity for Smash DLC. Obviously, this game would line up perfectly for Isaac to be added in Smash, since it offers an excellent promotion for a revived IP, and Sakurai also gets to satisfy fans.

Fast foward to August of 2018, when most of the game is probably done (as in the characters are just being balanced, extra modes being worked on, etc.), and Sakurai tweets the infamous "Rathalos Tweet". This tweet shows three swordsmen lined up to face Rathalos in the Colosseum, and the resemblance to Golden Sun is uncanny. Link as the silent protagonist, Marth as "Mars", like a Mars Adept, and Shulk as the future-seeing Ivan. The tweet couldn't have been just a coincidence, as it's impossible to line up the characters like that in a normal match. Not to mention, the battle in the Colosseum is reminiscent of the Doom Dragon battle at the end of Golden Sun, against a giant dragon in an arena. Now, at first, the Isaac community (myself included) believed this to be a sure sign of Isaac being in Smash. However, this was not the case. Some say the tweet is a Monster Hunter reference, but I think differently. (This part doesn't come from me, but I think JaidynReiman brought it up first) Back during the Smash 4 hype cycle, Sakurai tweeted a picture of the Monado, and lo and behold, exactly one year later, to the date, Shulk is revealed. I believe the Rathalos tweet wasn't something of "Hey, check this out! This thing is in the game!", but rather, "Hey! Check out what we're currently working on!", as DLC would have been started to have been discussed right about now.

This brings us to the present day. Isaac's revealed as an Assist Trophy, and we're all sad. However, do not fear! Sakurai confirms that Nintendo decided DLC, not him. This is good news for Isaac's base, as Nintendo might be more willing to not only give fans what they want, being directly on the receiving end of requests, but also to promote any upcoming games. As it so happens, one of these upcoming games is a new Golden Sun, and Nintendo can see the dollars rolling already. They realize they can basically double dip on Isaac's popularity: Not only will nostalgic fans buy him and the new Golden Sun, but his inclusion in Smash as a brand new geomancer will make casuals interested in Isaac as a character. Now Nintendo can say "Hey, you like this Isaac guy? Check this out: it's the game he starred in! And it just came out! Crazy, right?" This will help to ensure the Golden Sun remake sells as well.

I have a bit more evidence to add that doesn't really fit anywhere else: Isaac's model doesn't look great (compare it to other Assist Trophies - it looks pretty bad, especially with the sleeves and face), giving evidence to my theory that he was added in last-minute to please fans, and not to mention when Isaac was shown off in the Direct, they used the Felix Battle Theme that's been around since Brawl. Brawl! He was the only Assist not introduced with new music, which is quite strange, huh? Maybe they're saving it for a Fighter Pack with Isaac?

That's my crackpot theory on Isaac's chances in Smash. I've managed to completely convince myself, but I give it around a 5% chance of actually happening. Mostly, I'm banking on Camelot realizing the demand for a new Golden Sun and Nintendo wanting to promote characters with Ultimate's DLC. What do you guys think? (Also, KMDP, feel free to remind me of anything I missed, since most of this comes from the Isaac thread.)

EDIT: Holy crap, I forgot all about the trademarks! In August, Nintendo trademarked "Golden Sun" in Japan, different from the usual 「黄金の太陽」trademark usually used. This leads me to believe that Golden Sun will be relaunched worldwide as "Golden Sun", creating a single, stronger brand.
 
Last edited:

JohnKnight416

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Messages
297
NNID
Reddemonknight
So this mostly hinges on Isaac's perceived popularity in the Ballot, but here goes:

THE GREAT ISAAC IN ULTIMATE THEORY:

Let's establish one thing: Ultimate looks rushed. Some models look bad (Isaac), some strange choices were made (Chrom's still in Robin's Final Smash, what?), and in general the turnaround from Smash 4 was crazy. Sakurai had like two years to finish this game, as opposed to Brawl or Smash 4, which each had a longer development time. With the focus on bringing back vets and fan favorites, Sakurai realized Isaac was popular enough to warrant inclusion, but he couldn't be finished in time, as his Psynergy attacks would take up too much development time. So, Sakurai decides he'll bring back Isaac's Assist Trophy for the time being, since he already got the rights from Camelot (not rights, per say, but permission, I guess).

Let's back up a few months to when Sakurai got these rights. Camelot has previously stated they'd make a new Golden Sun game if fans were interested, but they didn't actually expect this amount of demand. When Sakurai goes to Camelot, they're surprised at just how popular Isaac is, and realize people actually do want more Golden Sun. This is probably in Q3 (Late Summer-Fall) 2016, giving Camelot plenty of time to start working on a new game. While they have to finish Mario Tennis Aces, they start contacting other companies, like Monolith, to help them remake the first 2 Golden Sun games to get the team used to working on Golden Sun. Once Mario Tennis wraps up the pre-launch development, most of its team is sent to help with Golden Sun, but the game still needs more time, and it finally projected to release sometime (probably late) in 2019, prime opportunity for Smash DLC. Obviously, this game would line up perfectly for Isaac to be added in Smash, since it offers an excellent promotion for a revived IP, and Sakurai also gets to satisfy fans.

Fast foward to August of 2018, when most of the game is probably done (as in the characters are just being balanced, extra modes being worked on, etc.), and Sakurai tweets the infamous "Rathalos Tweet". This tweet shows three swordsmen lined up to face Rathalos in the Colosseum, and the resemblance to Golden Sun is uncanny. Link as the silent protagonist, Marth as "Mars", like a Mars Adept, and Shulk as the future-seeing Ivan. The tweet couldn't have been just a coincidence, as it's impossible to line up the characters like that in a normal match. Not to mention, the battle in the Colosseum is reminiscent of the Doom Dragon battle at the end of Golden Sun, against a giant dragon in an arena. Now, at first, the Isaac community (myself included) believed this to be a sure sign of Isaac being in Smash. However, this was not the case. Some say the tweet is a Monster Hunter reference, but I think differently. (This part doesn't come from me, but I think JaidynReiman brought it up first) Back during the Smash 4 hype cycle, Sakurai tweeted a picture of the Monado, and lo and behold, exactly one year later, to the date, Shulk is revealed. I believe the Rathalos tweet wasn't something of "Hey, check this out! This thing is in the game!", but rather, "Hey! Check out what we're currently working on!", as DLC would have been started to have been discussed right about now.

This brings us to the present day. Isaac's revealed as an Assist Trophy, and we're all sad. However, do not fear! Sakurai confirms that Nintendo decided DLC, not him. This is good news for Isaac's base, as Nintendo might be more willing to not only give fans what they want, being directly on the receiving end of requests, but also to promote any upcoming games. As it so happens, one of these upcoming games is a new Golden Sun, and Nintendo can see the dollars rolling already. They realize they can basically double dip on Isaac's popularity: Not only will nostalgic fans buy him and the new Golden Sun, but his inclusion in Smash as a brand new geomancer will make casuals interested in Isaac as a character. Now Nintendo can say "Hey, you like this Isaac guy? Check this out: it's the game he starred in! And it just came out! Crazy, right?" This will help to ensure the Golden Sun remake sells as well.

I have a bit more evidence to add that doesn't really fit anywhere else: Isaac's model doesn't look great (compare it to other Assist Trophies - it looks pretty bad, especially with the sleeves and face), giving evidence to my theory that he was added in last-minute to please fans, and not to mention when Isaac was shown off in the Direct, they used the Felix Battle Theme that's been around since Brawl. Brawl! He was the only Assist not introduced with new music, which is quite strange, huh? Maybe they're saving it for a Fighter Pack with Isaac?

That's my crackpot theory on Isaac's chances in Smash. I've managed to completely convince myself, but I give it around a 5% chance of actually happening. Mostly, I'm banking on Camelot realizing the demand for a new Golden Sun and Nintendo wanting to promote characters with Ultimate's DLC. What do you guys think? (Also, KMDP, feel free to remind me of anything I missed, since most of this comes from the Isaac thread.)
Can you please show us this Rathalos Tweet that Sakurai posted?
 

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
Can you please show us this Rathalos Tweet that Sakurai posted?
Shortly after the August Direct, Sakurai tweeted out this image (which can be found on the Assist Trophy page).


Anyway, FlawedAI FlawedAI , this is a theory I myself have thought of, so you... might not be totally insane. :laugh:
Or we can be insane together, I guess...
 

FlawedAI

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
833
Shortly after the August Direct, Sakurai tweeted out this image (which can be found on the Assist Trophy page).


Anyway, FlawedAI FlawedAI , this is a theory I myself have thought of, so you... might not be totally insane. :laugh:
Or we can be insane together, I guess...
"If enough people become insane together, it's not so insane, is it?" - Me, right now.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
So this mostly hinges on Isaac's perceived popularity in the Ballot, but here goes:

THE GREAT ISAAC IN ULTIMATE THEORY:

Let's establish one thing: Ultimate looks rushed. Some models look bad (Isaac), some strange choices were made (Chrom's still in Robin's Final Smash, what?), and in general the turnaround from Smash 4 was crazy. Sakurai had like two years to finish this game, as opposed to Brawl or Smash 4, which each had a longer development time. With the focus on bringing back vets and fan favorites, Sakurai realized Isaac was popular enough to warrant inclusion, but he couldn't be finished in time, as his Psynergy attacks would take up too much development time. So, Sakurai decides he'll bring back Isaac's Assist Trophy for the time being, since he already got the rights from Camelot (not rights, per say, but permission, I guess).

Let's back up a few months to when Sakurai got these rights. Camelot has previously stated they'd make a new Golden Sun game if fans were interested, but they didn't actually expect this amount of demand. When Sakurai goes to Camelot, they're surprised at just how popular Isaac is, and realize people actually do want more Golden Sun. This is probably in Q3 (Late Summer-Fall) 2016, giving Camelot plenty of time to start working on a new game. While they have to finish Mario Tennis Aces, they start contacting other companies, like Monolith, to help them remake the first 2 Golden Sun games to get the team used to working on Golden Sun. Once Mario Tennis wraps up the pre-launch development, most of its team is sent to help with Golden Sun, but the game still needs more time, and it finally projected to release sometime (probably late) in 2019, prime opportunity for Smash DLC. Obviously, this game would line up perfectly for Isaac to be added in Smash, since it offers an excellent promotion for a revived IP, and Sakurai also gets to satisfy fans.

Fast foward to August of 2018, when most of the game is probably done (as in the characters are just being balanced, extra modes being worked on, etc.), and Sakurai tweets the infamous "Rathalos Tweet". This tweet shows three swordsmen lined up to face Rathalos in the Colosseum, and the resemblance to Golden Sun is uncanny. Link as the silent protagonist, Marth as "Mars", like a Mars Adept, and Shulk as the future-seeing Ivan. The tweet couldn't have been just a coincidence, as it's impossible to line up the characters like that in a normal match. Not to mention, the battle in the Colosseum is reminiscent of the Doom Dragon battle at the end of Golden Sun, against a giant dragon in an arena. Now, at first, the Isaac community (myself included) believed this to be a sure sign of Isaac being in Smash. However, this was not the case. Some say the tweet is a Monster Hunter reference, but I think differently. (This part doesn't come from me, but I think JaidynReiman brought it up first) Back during the Smash 4 hype cycle, Sakurai tweeted a picture of the Monado, and lo and behold, exactly one year later, to the date, Shulk is revealed. I believe the Rathalos tweet wasn't something of "Hey, check this out! This thing is in the game!", but rather, "Hey! Check out what we're currently working on!", as DLC would have been started to have been discussed right about now.

This brings us to the present day. Isaac's revealed as an Assist Trophy, and we're all sad. However, do not fear! Sakurai confirms that Nintendo decided DLC, not him. This is good news for Isaac's base, as Nintendo might be more willing to not only give fans what they want, being directly on the receiving end of requests, but also to promote any upcoming games. As it so happens, one of these upcoming games is a new Golden Sun, and Nintendo can see the dollars rolling already. They realize they can basically double dip on Isaac's popularity: Not only will nostalgic fans buy him and the new Golden Sun, but his inclusion in Smash as a brand new geomancer will make casuals interested in Isaac as a character. Now Nintendo can say "Hey, you like this Isaac guy? Check this out: it's the game he starred in! And it just came out! Crazy, right?" This will help to ensure the Golden Sun remake sells as well.

I have a bit more evidence to add that doesn't really fit anywhere else: Isaac's model doesn't look great (compare it to other Assist Trophies - it looks pretty bad, especially with the sleeves and face), giving evidence to my theory that he was added in last-minute to please fans, and not to mention when Isaac was shown off in the Direct, they used the Felix Battle Theme that's been around since Brawl. Brawl! He was the only Assist not introduced with new music, which is quite strange, huh? Maybe they're saving it for a Fighter Pack with Isaac?

That's my crackpot theory on Isaac's chances in Smash. I've managed to completely convince myself, but I give it around a 5% chance of actually happening. Mostly, I'm banking on Camelot realizing the demand for a new Golden Sun and Nintendo wanting to promote characters with Ultimate's DLC. What do you guys think? (Also, KMDP, feel free to remind me of anything I missed, since most of this comes from the Isaac thread.)

EDIT: Holy crap, I forgot all about the trademarks! In August, Nintendo trademarked "Golden Sun" in Japan, different from the usual 「黄金の太陽」trademark usually used. This leads me to believe that Golden Sun will be relaunched worldwide as "Golden Sun", creating a single, stronger brand.
Well, I agree that Ultimate looks very rushed.
 

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
I wouldn't actually say Ultimate is that rushed (stuff they showed definitely needed polish though, like Chrom and Wolf).

I can't remember what Sakurai specifically said within the tweet, it was commenting on how cool the image looked (and I think he mentioned the dev team).

While it was filtered through translation, one could read it as Sakurai saying "Hey, fans. Isn't this image coooooool? *nudge nudge wink wink*"
 
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FlawedAI

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
833
The tweet says (according to Twitter translate): "The official website has been update, but this picture is quite amazing." Could be everything, could be nothing. We don't really know.
 

RileyXY1

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
7,465
Hitagi has now taken back his claim on Katalina. He claimed that either the negotiations were for something else or he or his source misunderstood what the negotiations were about.
 

OpticalBlast

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
207
Hitagi has now taken back his claim on Katalina. He claimed that either the negotiations were for something else or he or his source misunderstood what the negotiations were about.
Hate to be this guy, but can I get a source on this?
 
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FancySmash

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
1,136
Location
The elegant battlefield.
If Isaac is a DLC character... I don't see Assist Trophies becoming fighters in season 1. I'd see it more in season 2. What would be the point of showing off these assists only to go back on that decision on the first wave? I could see the assists more testing the waters, waiting with season 1 before season 2 gives them a...
1542254598324.jpeg

Still, even with that, I don't see assists becoming fighters. It's just... unprecedented. Sorry.
 

Ninjaed

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 7, 2018
Messages
468
Let's back up a few months to when Sakurai got these rights. Camelot has previously stated they'd make a new Golden Sun game if fans were interested, but they didn't actually expect this amount of demand. When Sakurai goes to Camelot, they're surprised at just how popular Isaac is, and realize people actually do want more Golden Sun. This is probably in Q3 (Late Summer-Fall) 2016, giving Camelot plenty of time to start working on a new game.
Would just like evidence of that. What happened in 2016 that could've suddenly made them notice demands for Isaac?

Still, even with that, I don't see assists becoming fighters. It's just... unprecedented. Sorry.
Sakurai's game, Sakurai's rules. Isaac's model does look quite unpolished (one of my first thoughts was "is that the Brawl model?!"). It's possible this is a placeholder that will be replaced by Matthew or Felix when Isaac is made available as DLC. It's merely speculation of course, but... that Isaac's model doesn't look that good compared to what Ultimate has to offer is a fact.
 
Last edited:

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
232
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
NNID
Daedulustg
3DS FC
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Switch FC
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Bull**** I tell you, Isaac was propbably an assist trophy from the get go, sorry but I think it's true.
 

WaddleMatt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
1,065
Location
United Kingdom
Switch FC
SW 5950 1333 3717
So this mostly hinges on Isaac's perceived popularity in the Ballot, but here goes:

THE GREAT ISAAC IN ULTIMATE THEORY:

Let's establish one thing: Ultimate looks rushed. Some models look bad (Isaac), some strange choices were made (Chrom's still in Robin's Final Smash, what?), and in general the turnaround from Smash 4 was crazy. Sakurai had like two years to finish this game, as opposed to Brawl or Smash 4, which each had a longer development time. With the focus on bringing back vets and fan favorites, Sakurai realized Isaac was popular enough to warrant inclusion, but he couldn't be finished in time, as his Psynergy attacks would take up too much development time. So, Sakurai decides he'll bring back Isaac's Assist Trophy for the time being, since he already got the rights from Camelot (not rights, per say, but permission, I guess).

Let's back up a few months to when Sakurai got these rights. Camelot has previously stated they'd make a new Golden Sun game if fans were interested, but they didn't actually expect this amount of demand. When Sakurai goes to Camelot, they're surprised at just how popular Isaac is, and realize people actually do want more Golden Sun. This is probably in Q3 (Late Summer-Fall) 2016, giving Camelot plenty of time to start working on a new game. While they have to finish Mario Tennis Aces, they start contacting other companies, like Monolith, to help them remake the first 2 Golden Sun games to get the team used to working on Golden Sun. Once Mario Tennis wraps up the pre-launch development, most of its team is sent to help with Golden Sun, but the game still needs more time, and it finally projected to release sometime (probably late) in 2019, prime opportunity for Smash DLC. Obviously, this game would line up perfectly for Isaac to be added in Smash, since it offers an excellent promotion for a revived IP, and Sakurai also gets to satisfy fans.

Fast foward to August of 2018, when most of the game is probably done (as in the characters are just being balanced, extra modes being worked on, etc.), and Sakurai tweets the infamous "Rathalos Tweet". This tweet shows three swordsmen lined up to face Rathalos in the Colosseum, and the resemblance to Golden Sun is uncanny. Link as the silent protagonist, Marth as "Mars", like a Mars Adept, and Shulk as the future-seeing Ivan. The tweet couldn't have been just a coincidence, as it's impossible to line up the characters like that in a normal match. Not to mention, the battle in the Colosseum is reminiscent of the Doom Dragon battle at the end of Golden Sun, against a giant dragon in an arena. Now, at first, the Isaac community (myself included) believed this to be a sure sign of Isaac being in Smash. However, this was not the case. Some say the tweet is a Monster Hunter reference, but I think differently. (This part doesn't come from me, but I think JaidynReiman brought it up first) Back during the Smash 4 hype cycle, Sakurai tweeted a picture of the Monado, and lo and behold, exactly one year later, to the date, Shulk is revealed. I believe the Rathalos tweet wasn't something of "Hey, check this out! This thing is in the game!", but rather, "Hey! Check out what we're currently working on!", as DLC would have been started to have been discussed right about now.

This brings us to the present day. Isaac's revealed as an Assist Trophy, and we're all sad. However, do not fear! Sakurai confirms that Nintendo decided DLC, not him. This is good news for Isaac's base, as Nintendo might be more willing to not only give fans what they want, being directly on the receiving end of requests, but also to promote any upcoming games. As it so happens, one of these upcoming games is a new Golden Sun, and Nintendo can see the dollars rolling already. They realize they can basically double dip on Isaac's popularity: Not only will nostalgic fans buy him and the new Golden Sun, but his inclusion in Smash as a brand new geomancer will make casuals interested in Isaac as a character. Now Nintendo can say "Hey, you like this Isaac guy? Check this out: it's the game he starred in! And it just came out! Crazy, right?" This will help to ensure the Golden Sun remake sells as well.

I have a bit more evidence to add that doesn't really fit anywhere else: Isaac's model doesn't look great (compare it to other Assist Trophies - it looks pretty bad, especially with the sleeves and face), giving evidence to my theory that he was added in last-minute to please fans, and not to mention when Isaac was shown off in the Direct, they used the Felix Battle Theme that's been around since Brawl. Brawl! He was the only Assist not introduced with new music, which is quite strange, huh? Maybe they're saving it for a Fighter Pack with Isaac?

That's my crackpot theory on Isaac's chances in Smash. I've managed to completely convince myself, but I give it around a 5% chance of actually happening. Mostly, I'm banking on Camelot realizing the demand for a new Golden Sun and Nintendo wanting to promote characters with Ultimate's DLC. What do you guys think? (Also, KMDP, feel free to remind me of anything I missed, since most of this comes from the Isaac thread.)

EDIT: Holy crap, I forgot all about the trademarks! In August, Nintendo trademarked "Golden Sun" in Japan, different from the usual 「黄金の太陽」trademark usually used. This leads me to believe that Golden Sun will be relaunched worldwide as "Golden Sun", creating a single, stronger brand.
I also thought of a similar theory, wow. But I was leaning more towards that he was added as an AT because Sakurai wouldn't believe Nintendo would choose him for DLC and he wanted him in the game in some form.
 

Guynamednelson

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Switch FC
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Supposedly, Rex is too new to even be DLC, but Incineroar got chosen because of USUM. Is it possible the DLC characters are all ones that had to be cut to work on Incineroar?
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
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Supposedly, Rex is too new to even be DLC, but Incineroar got chosen because of USUM. Is it possible the DLC characters are all ones that had to be cut to work on Incineroar?
That's not what sakurai said, he said that he was too new for base, he could still get in as DLC, Mewtwo and Ness had assist trophies, chrom is still in robins final smash, and samus and captain falcon both had mii costume, nothing is stopping rex from being DLC.
 

Megadoomer

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You don't necessarily need to respond to every post if you have nothing to contribute, and there's a huge difference between assist trophies (which are like Pokeball summons) and trophies (which are static 3D models).
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
In his latest Famitsu column, Sakurai mentions that he left a ‘character frame’ open for a Pokémon rep.

So, I guess we’ve got confirmation that character slots are a thing.
 

Daedulus

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In his latest Famitsu column, Sakurai mentions that he left a ‘character frame’ open for a Pokémon rep.

So, I guess we’ve got confirmation that character slots are a thing.
I don't think that's what he meant, I don't know what he meant, but I think that's not it.
 

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JaidynReiman

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Supposedly, Rex is too new to even be DLC, but Incineroar got chosen because of USUM. Is it possible the DLC characters are all ones that had to be cut to work on Incineroar?
I don't think the DLC characters are characters that had to be cut to work on Incineroar. I think they tried to add several more characters, and Incineroar, but they ran out of time with everything they were doing so the other characters got cut. Incineroar took priority cuz Pokemon. Chrom and the like got added to fill in missing roster gaps.


Pokemon gets special treatment because its Pokemon. That's the only reason it gets a new character planned before the game comes out. Rex didn't get special treatment because he's not from the biggest media franchise in existence, he's from a relatively niche franchise that traditionally hasn't sold well, already had representation in Smash, and they didn't know if the new game would sell well in advance (turns out, it did).


I do think all the DLC was planned based on what they had planned for the base roster. But Incineroar didn't shove them out, Incineroar was always getting that priority.
 

FlawedAI

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Would just like evidence of that. What happened in 2016 that could've suddenly made them notice demands for Isaac?



Sakurai's game, Sakurai's rules. Isaac's model does look quite unpolished (one of my first thoughts was "is that the Brawl model?!"). It's possible this is a placeholder that will be replaced by Matthew or Felix when Isaac is made available as DLC. It's merely speculation of course, but... that Isaac's model doesn't look that good compared to what Ultimate has to offer is a fact.
Yeah, as Pinguino said, the Smash Ballot and Isaac's perceived popularity is my "evidence" for this theory. It's really about how well Isaac did, and if it shocked Camelot enough into making a new game.
Bull**** I tell you, Isaac was propbably an assist trophy from the get go, sorry but I think it's true.
Well, you can think that, but I believe I've made enough points to suggest that he was at least planned but cut in development, and that lends even more support to my DLC theory.
I also thought of a similar theory, wow. But I was leaning more towards that he was added as an AT because Sakurai wouldn't believe Nintendo would choose him for DLC and he wanted him in the game in some form.
While this is a possibility, I still believe Isaac had the support to become playable, but his overall complexity killed his chances of making base roster. Look at all the newcomers - the only one with a "gimmick" is the Inklings, the others all have fairly simple moves (for the most part, not saying they're "simple", or anything), and Isaac's Psynergy attacks would probably take quite a bit of development time, and he wasn't quite a high enough priority to join. This also probably means he's on Sakurai's mind (and is a pretty safe bet for Smash 6 if he doesn't join Ultimate), and if a Golden Sun game comes along, adding Isaac would be perfect to promote it. The planets are basically lining up for us Isaac fans on this one, but it hinges on Camelot making a new Golden Sun.
 

Luigifan18

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Bull**** I tell you, Isaac was propbably an assist trophy from the get go, sorry but I think it's true.
Assist Trophies are not in place "from the get go"; they're decided upon and developed later in the development process than playable characters. For instance, Bomberman wasn't relevant in 2015 (the proper timeframe for being playable), but he became relevant again in 2017, and so there was time available to develop him as an Assist Trophy. It is entirely feasible that Isaac was part of the 2015 project plan as a playable character, but they couldn't make him work properly in time for the game's release, so they made him an Assist Trophy instead. And it is likewise possible that the Isaac Assist Trophy is a stopgap while development of playable Isaac is completed for the Fighter Pass.
 

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Sakurai left open a slot for Pokemon twice. He rarely does so, but sometimes that's what he wants.

He did so for "Pokemon from X/Y", which became Greninja. He did the same thing for USUM, which became Incineroar. Sometimes he has simple reasons for an addition. He just wanted another Metroid rep when he added Zero Suit Samus. Not everything is super special. And that's okay. Sometimes you just need a quick buff to the roster. Sometimes you want to really analyze the best possible choices. Both are valid ways to add a character. Yes, sometimes it's not just about the character, but what series they're from. I'm aware that many think that there's no such thing as "series reps" and all, but the reality is, yes, yes there is. It's just not a huge thing that happens often. It very rarely does. But the reality is also that it's not the only reason the character gets in. That's just what makes it easy to start off who to choose. It doesn't do more than give you a list of characters to work with, really.
 

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Well, you can think that, but I believe I've made enough points to suggest that he was at least planned but cut in development, and that lends even more support to my DLC theory. While this is a possibility, I still believe Isaac had the support to become playable, but his overall complexity killed his chances of making base roster. Look at all the newcomers - the only one with a "gimmick" is the Inklings, the others all have fairly simple moves (for the most part, not saying they're "simple", or anything), and Isaac's Psynergy attacks would probably take quite a bit of development time, and he wasn't quite a high enough priority to join. This also probably means he's on Sakurai's mind (and is a pretty safe bet for Smash 6 if he doesn't join Ultimate), and if a Golden Sun game comes along, adding Isaac would be perfect to promote it. The planets are basically lining up for us Isaac fans on this one, but it hinges on Camelot making a new Golden Sun.
No. Isaac did well on the ballot yes, was an interesting character yes. But we know for a fact that Waddle dee didn't even get in as an assist and was a lot more popular than Isaac, k rool and rideley were the most popular and the HIGHEST REQUESTS, of course they got in smash, while vocal during the ballot period, the golden bois weren't loud enough to isaac into smash, this is why he's an assist trophy to say, "hey, you guys did a lot of work, here, we'll give you this as our sign of recognition. Nintendo doesn't give a **** about golden sun, so there was no pressure from them and, that thing about him being unique, on the top of my head I can think of a least 3 guys that are very similar to Isaac, you can't say that he'll be unique because the character will be unique as however much effort is put into it.

Assist Trophies are not in place "from the get go"; they're decided upon and developed later in the development process than playable characters. For instance, Bomberman wasn't relevant in 2015 (the proper timeframe for being playable), but he became relevant again in 2017, and so there was time available to develop him as an Assist Trophy. It is entirely feasible that Isaac was part of the 2015 project plan as a playable character, but they couldn't make him work properly in time for the game's release, so they made him an Assist Trophy instead. And it is likewise possible that the Isaac Assist Trophy is a stopgap while development of playable Isaac is completed for the Fighter Pass.
Hahahaha, Sakurai said he finished roster in December 2015, there was no stopgap, because everything was already set in stone, do your research next time.
 
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