Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[TheCJBrine]

Hahahaha, Sakurai said he finished roster in December 2015, there was no stopgap, because everything was already set in stone, do your research next time.

The project plan was in 2015, the roster was decided but not finished.

That being said, I don't think they would plan Isaac as a playable character and then push him to Assist Trophy status, I think they'd have pushed him back to being free bonus DLC alongside Piranha Plant if they couldn't finish him.

 

[Luigifan18]

Hahahaha, Sakurai said he finished roster in December 2015, there was no stopgap, because everything was already set in stone, do your research next time.

Yes, the roster of playable characters was decided in 2015. The roster of Assist Trophies was settled later. Assist Trophies take less time to develop than playable characters.

 

[Blackwolf666]

I trimmed down my wanted DLC characters to just 2. Why? While I would enjoy it if say Ganon, Rex & Pyra, Viridi, Bandana Dee, Sora or Dixie Kong got in my feelings towards their inclusion pales in comparison to my top 2... Banjo & Kazooie and Shantae.

 

[GoodGrief741]

No. Isaac did well on the ballot yes, was an interesting character yes. But we know for a fact that Waddle dee didn't even get in as an assist and was a lot more popular than Isaac, k rool and rideley were the most popular and the HIGHEST REQUESTS, of course they got in smash, while vocal during the ballot period, the golden bois weren't loud enough to isaac into smash, this is why he's an assist trophy to say, "hey, you guys did a lot of work, here, we'll give you this as our sign of recognition. Nintendo doesn't give a **** about golden sun, so there was no pressure from them and, that thing about him being unique, on the top of my head I can think of a least 3 guys that are very similar to Isaac, you can't say that he'll be unique because the character will be unique as however much effort is put into it.



Hahahaha, Sakurai said he finished roster in December 2015, there was no stopgap, because everything was already set in stone, do your research next time.

You got any evidence that Dee was, overall, more popular than Isaac, worldwide? I know he’s probably top 10 in the West and number 1 in Japan.

 

[Daedulus]

The project plan was in 2015, the roster was decided but not finished. That being said, I don't think they would plan Isaac as a playable character and then push him to Assist Trophy status, I think they'd have pushed him back to being free bonus DLC alongside Piranha Plant if they couldn't finish him.

Yes, the roster of playable characters was decided in 2015. The roster of Assist Trophies was settled later. Assist Trophies take less time to develop than playable characters.

And you say Isaac was playable but they didn't have the time, do you get what I'm saying.

You got any evidence that Dee was, overall, more popular than Isaac, worldwide? I know he’s probably top 10 in the West and number 1 in Japan.

I think it's obvious that Waddle Dee was more popular have you looked at source gamings graph? It shows waddle dee and magalor right next to eachother.

 

[FancySmash]

I will say, if anything was against Isaac in terms of getting into Ultimate, it'd look like his popularity in Japan was what hurt him.

That's not to say he did bad. He did just as well as Bayonetta, though let's remember most of Bayonetta's support was not from Japan. I guess Ridley beat him to the "outside of Japan requested" spot.

 

[VashTehStampede]

https://mynintendonews.com/2018/11/15/tales-of-series-23rd-anniversary-broadcast-8th-december-2018/

"Bandai Namco will be hosting a special Tales of series broadcast on the 8th of December"
""Lloyd's Japanese VA will be featured."
"Two days after the VGA, and one day after Ultimate's release."

 

[GoodGrief741]

And you say Isaac was playable but they didn't have the time, do you get what I'm saying.




I think it's obvious that Waddle Dee was more popular have you looked at source gamings graph? It shows waddle dee and magalor right next to eachother.

That’s just Japan though. Unless we’re thinking about different graphs.

Regardless, I think one poll pales in comparison to constantly getting in the top 5 of many polls.

 

[KMDP]

No. Isaac did well on the ballot yes, was an interesting character yes. But we know for a fact that Waddle dee didn't even get in as an assist and was a lot more popular than Isaac, k rool and rideley were the most popular and the HIGHEST REQUESTS, of course they got in smash, while vocal during the ballot period, the golden bois weren't loud enough to isaac into smash, this is why he's an assist trophy to say, "hey, you guys did a lot of work, here, we'll give you this as our sign of recognition. Nintendo doesn't give a **** about golden sun, so there was no pressure from them and, that thing about him being unique, on the top of my head I can think of a least 3 guys that are very similar to Isaac, you can't say that he'll be unique because the character will be unique as however much effort is put into it.

Bandana Dee was only more popular than Ridley and Isaac in Japan (and even then K. Rool was more popular still).

How do I know K. Rool was more popular than Bandana Dee in Japan? PushDustIn 's "poll" had K. Rool higher than BWD, and K. Rool is the one who's playable. The poll being the one FancySmash just posted.

Well, you can think that, but I believe I've made enough points to suggest that he was at least planned but cut in development, and that lends even more support to my DLC theory.

I believe that had Smash Ultimate spent 6 more months in development we'd have gotten at least one more character (I'd have bet on Isaac and/or Shadow).

 

[Ninjaed]

I want to believe the Isaac For Smash theories more because I want him but also because... his in-game model looks "meh" compared to many others. Look at Chrom who is said to have been rushed, there's so much more detail on him. Look at newly introduced camera girl, it's on a whole different level (understandably so for her). Even Vince, Dr Wily or Black Knight have better models.

On the other hand, Isaac is the first one to have been given new moves, including teleportation to quickly reposition himself. Each of them using a different animation: thrusting his arm forward to push, joining his hands together to lift, swinging his arm downwards to pound...

Why this discrepancy? A meh model without real attention to details (just look at his hair...) yet giving him unprecedented "love" by increasing his range of attacks, even giving him new animations. Sakurai must have known how fans would react to Isaac being a trophy, new moves or not. If the reaction is the same, why not just bring the old moveset back? Why go the extra mile on that point, yet not on the 3D model? It just feels like something doesn't add up. You could handwave it saying "he wanted to appease the fans in some way" but then why show him in the very last direct? Why so late? Why not upgrade his looks rather than his moveset, since it's what people will see first? I really think something feels off.

Edit: forgot the absence of new music in his introduction, just lazily taking the Brawl remix and call it a day.

 

[KMDP]

I want to believe the Isaac For Smash theories more because I want him but also because... his in-game model looks "meh" compared to many others. Look at Chrom who is said to have been rushed, there's so much more detail on him. Look at newly introduced camera girl, it's on a whole different level (understandably so for her). Even Vince, Dr Wily or Black Knight have better models.

On the other hand, Isaac is the first one to have been given new moves, including teleportation to quickly reposition himself. Each of them using a different animation: thrusting his arm forward to push, joining his hands together to lift, swinging his arm downwards to pound...

Why this discrepancy? A meh model without real attention to details (just look at his hair...) yet giving him unprecedented "love" by increasing his range of attacks, even giving him new animations. Sakurai must have known how fans would react to Isaac being a trophy, new moves or not. If the reaction is the same, why not just bring the old moveset back? Why go the extra mile on that point, yet not on the 3D model? It just feels like something doesn't add up. You could handwave it saying "he wanted to appease the fans in some way" but then why show him in the very last direct? Why so late? Why not upgrade his looks rather than his moveset, since it's what people will see first? I really think something feels off.

I actually thought Isaac looked fine when watching the Direct, maybe I need to take a look again.

 

[Ninjaed]

I actually thought Isaac looked fine when watching the Direct, maybe I need to take a look again.

Really? I thought they had straight up taken the Brawl model (maybe slightly modified it) and boom, job's done.

 

[KMDP]

Really? I thought they had straight up taken the Brawl model (maybe slightly modified it) and boom, job's done.

They absolutely did not just take the Isaac model from Brawl (though that doesn't mean they didn't port it and modify it).

 

[Daedulus]

That’s just Japan though. Unless we’re thinking about different graphs. Regardless, I think one poll pales in comparison to constantly getting in the top 5 of many polls.

Might I remind a lot of characters come from the japanese crowd

Bandana Dee was only more popular than Ridley and Isaac in Japan (and even then K. Rool was more popular still). How do I know K. Rool was more popular than Bandana Dee in Japan? PushDustIn 's "poll" had K. Rool higher than BWD, and K. Rool is the one who's playable. The poll being the one FancySmash just posted. I believe that had Smash Ultimate spent 6 more months in development we'd have gotten at least one more character (I'd have bet on Isaac and/or Shadow).

Bandana dee is just very popular in Japan for some reason, yes, k rool was more popular, but bandana dee is still very popular, another thing is too, if smash ultimate had 6 more months, 2018 would be a bust, they wouldn't get the sales from christmas and while we did have a lot of good games... none of them were system sellers, smash is the one more push people need to buy a switch, there's a lot more that goes into a games release than just development cycle.

 

[Pinguino21v]

I personally like the new one more if you don't zoom on his face.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

From what I've seen of Isaac, he looks like a fighter from Smash 4.

Still better than Waluigi at least. I don't think his tennis hand even has individual fingers.

 

[Ninjaed]

Since when has Bandana Dee been actively (and massively?) requested though? Like, if you take Geno, before E3, hardly anyone knew about him. Now, he's the "only viable SE rep" for some reason according to some. Is Bandana Dee in the same boat?

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Kinda missed out on newcomer speculation since I'm 99.99% sure salt was spilled over the past couple days, but...
If we're talking potential SE representatives, I'm pushing for Gilgamesh as a Final Fantasy representative.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Since when has Bandana Dee been actively (and massively?) requested though? Like, if you take Geno, before E3, hardly anyone knew about him. Now, he's the "only viable SE rep" for some reason according to some. Is Bandana Dee in the same boat?

Uhh, where have you been? Geno has been requested since the days of Melee.

I can’t attest to Dee having that long lasting support, but he’s been a huge player at least since before Smash 4.

 

[11th]

Still better than Waluigi at least. I don't think his tennis hand even has individual fingers.

He does have fully modeled hands in Ultimate, actually, though I doubt they're rigged. I remember seeing that his entire model was updated for Smash for... except for those hands. Still bothers me, and I'm glad that they were finally cleaned up.

As for Isaac: Keep in mind that the Brawl render used a higher poly model than what was actually used for his AT and trophy in-game. Isaac's new model looks solid enough, other than his hair being a bit off. The real problem seems to be the pose they used for his new render and the "Move" action. It's a bit stiff compared to his Brawl one, and the rotation on his left thigh looks off. The rest of his animations are pretty solid, though.

 

[Ninjaed]

Uhh, where have you been? Geno has been requested since the days of Melee.

I can’t attest to Dee having that long lasting support, but he’s been a huge player at least since before Smash 4.

Reminder: These were the "Most Wanted" characters before E3
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77205279

 

[GoodGrief741]

Reminder: These were the "Most Wanted" characters before E3
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77205279

According to a single poll on GameFAQs? Yeah, you can absolutely discard that. You can even find interviews online where Sakurai speaks about Geno’s fanbase. It’s been around for years.

I mean, think a little critically. Why would Geno of all characters suddenly gain traction after E3? Nothing happened with him.

 

[Ninjaed]

According to a single poll on GameFAQs? Yeah, you can absolutely discard that. You can even find interviews online where Sakurai speaks about Geno’s fanbase. It’s been around for years.

I mean, think a little critically. Why would Geno of all characters suddenly gain traction after E3? Nothing happened with him.

... Thanks for not even bothering to CLICK on the link. I guess I'll do the legwork for you again and post the 3 of the 5 different polls the person on gamefaqs shared with others (the gamefaqs one doesn't have enough votes, the 4chan one I can't find the date and didn't have that many votes compared to the other polls anyway):

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/89n2gq/
www.sourcegaming.info/2018/06/10/mega-smash-poll-switch-results/
https://smashboards.com/threads/top-10-most-wanted-newcomers-for-smash-switch.453658/

And if you're not satisfied with those polls, here's another one from 2015 with over 13k votes, which is representative enough I think:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._results_the_smash_bros_dlc_reddit_survey_is/

You'll notice the Geno craze wasn't present back then. Geno WAS requested by some, but it was nowhere near as high as now. It only truly boomed recently, which usually indicates bandwagoning. Also, one event did happen: Vergeben leaked there'd be a Square Enix rep and people started connecting Geno with Square Enix. This is quite often mentioned now.

 

[TheCJBrine]

... Thanks for not even bothering to CLICK on the link. I guess I'll do the legwork for you again and post the 3 of the 5 different polls the person on gamefaqs shared with others (the gamefaqs one doesn't have enough votes, the 4chan one I can't find the date and didn't have that many votes compared to the other polls anyway):

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/89n2gq/
www.sourcegaming.info/2018/06/10/mega-smash-poll-switch-results/
https://smashboards.com/threads/top-10-most-wanted-newcomers-for-smash-switch.453658/

And if you're not satisfied with those polls, here's another one from 2015 with over 13k votes, which is representative enough I think:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._results_the_smash_bros_dlc_reddit_survey_is/

You'll notice the Geno craze wasn't present back then. Geno WAS requested by some, but it was nowhere near as high as now. It only truly boomed recently, which usually indicates bandwagoning. Also, one event did happen: Vergeben leaked there'd be a Square Enix rep and people started connecting Geno with Square Enix. This is quite often mentioned now.

Didn't Geno gain traction before Vergeben's SE statements? I wasn't very familiar with Geno before Smash speculation this time around, but I know I started supporting him before Verge's words about SE. SG's poll at least has Geno above Sora (albeit not by much) and second to Waluigi when only looking at Mario characters. Geno may have also had a lot of requests during the Ballot, fan-polls won't matter here. If we consider leaks, then most of those fan-poll characters aren't getting in anyway.

If you ask me, some Geno fans probably lost hope, but seeing Ridley and K. Rool get in, who were seen as big fan-requests, and this being the "Ultimate" Smash game, might have sparked some activity.

Also, I see "bandwagonning" as a silly excuse for a character's popularity, as I don't see why people would ask for them or support them without actually liking them or caring at all, it's more that they saw the character without knowing them before and yet liked them and wanted to know more about them (or in my case with Skull Kid, Smash never crossed my mind despite liking the character :S )

And Sakurai has said how Geno is really popular and that he get's a lot of requests.

 

[GoodGrief741]

... Thanks for not even bothering to CLICK on the link. I guess I'll do the legwork for you again and post the 3 of the 5 different polls the person on gamefaqs shared with others (the gamefaqs one doesn't have enough votes, the 4chan one I can't find the date and didn't have that many votes compared to the other polls anyway):

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/89n2gq/
www.sourcegaming.info/2018/06/10/mega-smash-poll-switch-results/
https://smashboards.com/threads/top-10-most-wanted-newcomers-for-smash-switch.453658/

And if you're not satisfied with those polls, here's another one from 2015 with over 13k votes, which is representative enough I think:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._results_the_smash_bros_dlc_reddit_survey_is/

You'll notice the Geno craze wasn't present back then. Geno WAS requested by some, but it was nowhere near as high as now. It only truly boomed recently, which usually indicates bandwagoning. Also, one event did happen: Vergeben leaked there'd be a Square Enix rep and people started connecting Geno with Square Enix. This is quite often mentioned now.

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...ans-one-most-requested-smash-bros-characters/

This is the creator of Super Smash Bros. speaking about how he’s wanted to add Geno since Brawl and how far back his popularity goes.

Interview came out in 2016.

You joined this site this year, so don’t pretend to tell me when characters became popular. Ask anyone who’s been in Smash speculation since Brawl, they’ll tell you Geno has been popular since forever.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Reminder: fan-polls aren't completely accurate, and Sakurai/his team/Nintendo may find popularity elsewhere. I remember 2015 fan-poll data on it that had Geno at a decent placing, and Dark Samus wasn't on it despite the character being "highly popular" as said in the August Direct (and the data had taken over 45k votes from different fan-polls if I recall correctly).

Since Sakurai mentioned how Geno is popular and he got a Mii Costume, I think it's safe to say Geno did at least decently in the Ballot.

 

[FlawedAI]

No. Isaac did well on the ballot yes, was an interesting character yes. But we know for a fact that Waddle dee didn't even get in as an assist and was a lot more popular than Isaac, k rool and rideley were the most popular and the HIGHEST REQUESTS, of course they got in smash, while vocal during the ballot period, the golden bois weren't loud enough to isaac into smash, this is why he's an assist trophy to say, "hey, you guys did a lot of work, here, we'll give you this as our sign of recognition. Nintendo doesn't give a **** about golden sun, so there was no pressure from them and, that thing about him being unique, on the top of my head I can think of a least 3 guys that are very similar to Isaac, you can't say that he'll be unique because the character will be unique as however much effort is put into it.



Hahahaha, Sakurai said he finished roster in December 2015, there was no stopgap, because everything was already set in stone, do your research next time.

Waddle Dee is more popular in Japan, yes, but keep in mind Isaac is most likely many times more popular in both the U.S. and especially Europe. Isaac is basically Europe's Ridley, the most requested if I'm remembering correctly. Also, who exactly is "very similar" to Isaac? Felix and Matthew of course, but given that they're meant to be similar, they don't count. I can think of Lycanroc as an earth user, but Isaac also has utility Psynergy (the big hands), and I don't believe anyone else has that.

Bandana Dee was only more popular than Ridley and Isaac in Japan (and even then K. Rool was more popular still).

How do I know K. Rool was more popular than Bandana Dee in Japan? PushDustIn 's "poll" had K. Rool higher than BWD, and K. Rool is the one who's playable. The poll being the one FancySmash just posted.

I believe that had Smash Ultimate spent 6 more months in development we'd have gotten at least one more character (I'd have bet on Isaac and/or Shadow).

Yep, I wholeheartedly agree that Isaac was next up, which also gives me faith in my theory, since he's on Sakurai's mind.

 

[Ninjaed]

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...ans-one-most-requested-smash-bros-characters/

This is the creator of Super Smash Bros. speaking about how he’s wanted to add Geno since Brawl and how far back his popularity goes.

Interview came out in 2016.

You joined this site this year, so don’t pretend to tell me when characters became popular. Ask anyone who’s been in Smash speculation since Brawl, they’ll tell you Geno has been popular since forever.

I've only recently joined to support Isaac. I could've sworn I had an account back when I was playing Brawl semi-competitively (online ones) but I must've lost it... I'm sad; Anyway!

I know Sakurai said this about him but to me, this is more of a consolation to his fans than actual acknowledgement of his popularity (though he must've done decently well regardless). The reason I'm saying this is because of polls like the ones I've shared (showing Geno not even making it to top 10 with good sample size) and because King K. Rool who he never said a thing about won the ballot. This is a "please and appease" marketing strategy. People in the smash community mostly know of Mother/Earthbound's Geno because of how much people have been throwing his name around. That's it. Many players who played the original game, myself included, don't care about Geno in Smash. As for those who aren't checking the boards, Geno might as well not exist. Do you know who Stocke is? He's the MC of Radiant Historia, one of my favourite games which got a remake on the 3DS. Yet I know it's a niche series no one knows about. Stocke is to you what Geno is to everyone else.

And because I have played the game, I know that Geno is not from Mother/Earthbound like some people have said. The fact you do have people saying this goes to show just how much bandwagoning is taking place here. They don't know about the character, they don't even know what game he's from. He's a fad that gets revived every time a new smash game is coming out, then dies again. Geno has no future as a character, he was a one-off character. Square Enix can't use him at all and don't get fooled, few people actually know him. This means Nintendo has no reason to go through all the trouble of getting his rights to add him in Smash as DLC... especially as DLC! These are supposed to sell! Anyone younger than 20 will have never heard of SMRPG, and that is a LOT of customers. Nintendo learned to be more cautious with their DLC characters ever since Corrin raised controversy.

Geno got a Mii costume, a profile picture and a comment from Sakurai. Until he gets better known outside of the Smash community - with people spreading let's plays, making cosplays, creating goodies and so on - he will never, ever make it as a fighter. Unless you want to claim Geno deserves a slot more than video game behemoths like monster hunter, dovahkiin, Chocobo, Sora, 2B, Erdrick (from Dragon Quest) and many more. In which case, I'm sorry to say: you're deluding yourself.

 

[KMDP]

Bandana Dee's popularity has been a slow creep.

Basically, around the time of Brawl, was considered sufficient to consider the Kirby series "complete".

Then Kirby games slowly started including Bandana Waddle Dee in increasingly important roles and, now, the Kirby series isn't complete anymore; Bandana Dee is now a missing piece of the puzzle.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I've only recently joined to support Isaac. I could've sworn I had an account back when I was playing Brawl semi-competitively (online ones) but I must've lost it... I'm sad; Anyway!

I know Sakurai said this about him but to me, this is more of a consolation to his fans than actual acknowledgement of his popularity (though he must've done decently well regardless). The reason I'm saying this is because of polls like the ones I've shared (showing Geno not even making it to top 10 with good sample size) and because King K. Rool who he never said a thing about won the ballot. This is a "please and appease" marketing strategy. People in the smash community mostly know of Mother/Earthbound's Geno because of how much people have been throwing his name around. That's it. Many players who played the original game, myself included, don't care about Geno in Smash. As for those who aren't checking the boards, Geno might as well not exist. Do you know who Stocke is? He's the MC of Radiant Historia, one of my favourite games which got a remake on the 3DS. Yet I know it's a niche series no one knows about. Stocke is to you what Geno is to everyone else.

And because I have played the game, I know that Geno is not from Mother/Earthbound like some people have said. The fact you do have people saying this goes to show just how much bandwagoning is taking place here. They don't know about the character, they don't even know what game he's from. He's a fad that gets revived every time a new smash game is coming out, then dies again. Geno has no future as a character, he was a one-off character. Square Enix can't use him at all and don't get fooled, few people actually know him. This means Nintendo has no reason to go through all the trouble of getting his rights to add him in Smash as DLC... especially as DLC! These are supposed to sell! Anyone younger than 20 will have never heard of SMRPG, and that is a LOT of customers. Nintendo learned to be more cautious with their DLC characters ever since Corrin raised controversy.

Geno got a Mii costume, a profile picture and a comment from Sakurai. Until he gets better known outside of the Smash community - with people spreading let's plays, making cosplays, creating goodies and so on - he will never, ever make it as a fighter. Unless you want to claim Geno deserves a slot more than video game behemoths like monster hunter, dovahkiin, Chocobo, Sora, 2B, Erdrick (from Dragon Quest) and many more. In which case, I'm sorry to say: you're deluding yourself.

You are the first person in existence I have seen refer to Geno as a character from Mother/Earthbound. Stop making up strawmen.

Nobody’s saying Geno’s famous or well-known at all outside of the Smash scene, what I am saying is that he’s been a massive demand for a long time. You can ask anyone here and they’ll tell you that, Sakurai will also tell you that (consolation prize my ass, how many fanbase get their character spoken about just as consolation), and no ****ty evidence you can provide can disprove that because it’s a fact. I lived it.

 

[Ninjaed]

You are the first person in existence I have seen refer to Geno as a character from Mother/Earthbound. Stop making up strawmen.

Nobody’s saying Geno’s famous or well-known at all outside of the Smash scene, what I am saying is that he’s been a massive demand for a long time. You can ask anyone here and they’ll tell you that, Sakurai will also tell you that (consolation prize my ***, how many fanbase get their character spoken about just as consolation), and no ****ty evidence you can provide can disprove that because it’s a fact. I lived it.

Earthbound Geno is kinda a meme, but that many people don't know who Geno is or what game he's from is fact. You yourself are not trying to argue he's well-known outside the Smash scene because he's not. Problem is, the smash scene is only a small part of the smash playerbase. "Massive" demand is up to debate, considering he didn't make top 10 a few years ago. His popularity has increased recently... wait, I already said all that. Ugh, I hate repeating myself.

Point is, you have yet to provide valid reasons as to why Geno should be picked. He's a massive demand from the smash scene? Fine, I'll bite. Let's say he is. What does that change? He's unknown outside of it. The Smash community is a small part of the Smash playerbase. They can't sell that as DLC. He'd be fine in the base roster, but Nintendo and Square Enix want the character AND the amiibos to sell. Geno is already falling flat there. As for his future as a character? He has none right now. He wasn't even included in the remake of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga in 2017 despite making a cameo in the original game back in 2003.

He's no DLC material and this isn't up to debate. Whether he's base roster material maybe is, but certainly not DLC. Geno won't be in Ultimate. The only hope is that he gets in as a free echo fighter, of mii cannon for example.

Unless you want to claim Geno deserves a slot more than video game behemoths like monster hunter, dovahkiin, Chocobo, Sora, 2B, Erdrick (from Dragon Quest) and many more. In which case, I'm sorry to say: you're deluding yourself.

And I'll add Amaterasu and Eggman to that list.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Earthbound Geno is kinda a meme, but that many people don't know who Geno is or what game he's from is fact. You yourself are not trying to argue he's well-known outside the Smash scene because he's not. Problem is, the smash scene is only a small part of the smash playerbase. "Massive" demand is up to debate, considering he didn't make top 10 a few years ago. His popularity has increased recently... wait, I already said all that. Ugh, I hate repeating myself.

Point is, you have yet to provide valid reasons as to why Geno should be picked. He's a massive demand from the smash scene? Fine, I'll bite. Let's say he is. What does that change? He's unknown outside of it. The Smash community is a small part of the Smash playerbase. They can't sell that as DLC. He'd be fine in the base roster, but Nintendo and Square Enix want the character AND the amiibos to sell. Geno is already falling flat there. As for his future as a character? He has none right now. He wasn't even included in the remake of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga in 2017 despite making a cameo in the original game back in 2003.

He's no DLC material and this isn't up to debate. Whether he's base roster material maybe is, but certainly not DLC. Geno won't be in Ultimate. The only hope is that he gets in as a free echo fighter, of mii cannon for example.

And I'll add Amaterasu and Eggman to that list.

I’m not saying he should be in, or he will be in. I’m just disputing your idiotic, delusional, and completely untrue claim that Geno only gained support after E3.

 

[Ninjaed]

I’m not saying he should be in, or he will be in. I’m just disputing your idiotic, delusional, and completely untrue claim that Geno only gained support after E3.

I don't recall saying he was unpopular or completely unknown. What I did say is that his support has greatly increased since the E3. Saying Geno has always been a massive demand is false. It's not my opinion, it's fact backed by evidence as I have already proven. He was requested but nowhere near as much as he he is now. If you wish to insist this fact is idiotic, delusional and completely untrue, have it your way. Just please do so without resorting to insults.

 

[Daedulus]

Waddle Dee is more popular in Japan, yes, but keep in mind Isaac is most likely many times more popular in both the U.S. and especially Europe. Isaac is basically Europe's Ridley, the most requested if I'm remembering correctly. Also, who exactly is "very similar" to Isaac? Felix and Matthew of course, but given that they're meant to be similar, they don't count. I can think of Lycanroc as an earth user, but Isaac also has utility Psynergy (the big hands), and I don't believe anyone else has that. Yep, I wholeheartedly agree that Isaac was next up, which also gives me faith in my theory, since he's on Sakurai's mind.

Sakurai cares a lot more about japan then the us, it's where most of his sales come from and were he's from, you make no solid proof that isaac was big in europe and even if he was..... do you think any body cares about europe? And if you believe that isaac was next to be added, that's just wishful thinking, I think you know that too.

 

[KMDP]

Sakurai cares a lot more about japan then the us, it's where most of his sales come from and were he's from, you make no solid proof that isaac was big in europe and even if he was..... do you think any body cares about europe? And if you believe that isaac was next to be added, that's just wishful thinking, I think you know that too.

"Do you think anybody cares about Europe?"

****ing what?

What about the people in Europe!?

I'm pretty sure most of the sales for Smash come from "not Japan"; America and Europe, even alone, are way bigger than Japan, not to mention that Japan prefers mobile gaming over console gaming.

As for Europe and Golden Sun, the biggest Golden Sun fan forum is, I believe, a German one.

 

[FlawedAI]

Sakurai cares a lot more about japan then the us, it's where most of his sales come from and were he's from, you make no solid proof that isaac was big in europe and even if he was..... do you think any body cares about europe? And if you believe that isaac was next to be added, that's just wishful thinking, I think you know that too.

I know the odds seem overwhelming, but I think to completely discount Isaac from discussion is close-minded and short-sighted. It's fine if you don't think he's likely, but it's a non-zero chance of him getting in, and as such, deserves discussion. I believe my theory to be correct, as it seems like a miracle is lining up for us Isaac fans. Also, while I'm sure that Sakurai is much more "in-tune" with what Japan wants, after the ballot, he is more than aware of the rest of the world, with Ridley as evidence. I believe it is a possibility that we might see a DLC character for each region: Dee for Japan, Geno for the U.S., and Isaac for Europe, since I'm pretty confident Isaac (or K. Rool) won Europe (it definitely wasn't Bayonetta, that's BS). Our "solid proof" for Isaac's popularity is the many, many polls he's placed (or even won) in, such as the massive exit poll that he placed second in, and while it doesn't have a lot of bearing on his popularity in 2015, the recent Reddit tournament poll, Isaac received the most amount of votes overall and placed second, only loosing to Banjo twice. I think we've given more than enough evidence to support Isaac's popularity, especially since your evidence for Dee being more popular than Isaac is one Source Gaming poll, while Isaac beats him in many, many others.

 

[Daedulus]

I know the odds seem overwhelming, but I think to completely discount Isaac from discussion is close-minded and short-sighted. It's fine if you don't think he's likely, but it's a non-zero chance of him getting in, and as such, deserves discussion. I believe my theory to be correct, as it seems like a miracle is lining up for us Isaac fans. Also, while I'm sure that Sakurai is much more "in-tune" with what Japan wants, after the ballot, he is more than aware of the rest of the world, with Ridley as evidence. I believe it is a possibility that we might see a DLC character for each region: Dee for Japan, Geno for the U.S., and Isaac for Europe, since I'm pretty confident Isaac (or K. Rool) won Europe (it definitely wasn't Bayonetta, that's BS). Our "solid proof" for Isaac's popularity is the many, many polls he's placed (or even won) in, such as the massive exit poll that he placed second in, and while it doesn't have a lot of bearing on his popularity in 2015, the recent Reddit tournament poll, Isaac received the most amount of votes overall and placed second, only loosing to Banjo twice. I think we've given more than enough evidence to support Isaac's popularity, especially since your evidence for Dee being more popular than Isaac is one Source Gaming poll, while Isaac beats him in many, many others.

I never said Isaac should be completely out of discussion, It's just that he's not as popular as people think, and to say Isaac would have been the character to make it in next would be completely disregarding vastly more likely characters like Waddle Dee and so on. And enough with that miracle ****, you say that about any group, Rideley was the ONLY character directly chosen from America, and Isaac wasn't that requested in Europe because 1 you don't have any proof, 2 golden sun didn't sell that well in most european countries and 3 why? Why would he be popular there in the first place? And do you realize that most of the fan polls aren't accurate to the whole community? And that source gaming poll is not only the most accurate poll we have from Japan right now, but also it is about the buzz of the character online IN JAPAN DURING THE BALLOT PERIOD. Those polls don't only have potential bias, but don't reflect the wants of the community at all. It's like America choosing whether to go Communist and only the Communist party get to vote.(don't say you can't make that comparison because I just did)

"Do you think anybody cares about Europe?"***ing what? What about the people in Europe!? I'm pretty sure most of the sales for Smash come from "not Japan"; America and Europe, even alone, are way bigger than Japan, not to mention that Japan prefers mobile gaming over console gaming. As for Europe and Golden Sun, the biggest Golden Sun fan forum is, I believe, a German one.

Ok, yeah it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that no body cares about Europe but...... You now what I mean. And most of sales DO come from Japan because 1 X-box and Playstation don't have the same market share they do here and in Europe and 2 it's no only expensive to translate the games into european languages but sometimes they just don't do it!(Monster Hunting cartoon 3ds game or Mother 3 anyone?) and yes the us and europe are bigger in population, they don't have the same market share that japan does.

 

[KMDP]

Ok, yeah it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that no body cares about Europe but...... You now what I mean. And most of sales DO come from Japan because 1 X-box and Playstation don't have the same market share they do here and in Europe and 2 it's no only expensive to translate the games into european languages but sometimes they just don't do it!(Monster Hunting cartoon 3ds game or Mother 3 anyone?) and yes the us and europe are bigger in population, they don't have the same market share that japan does.

No, I don't know what you mean. Why would Nintendo not care about Europe and what they want?

Playstation is still bought in Japan, in fact the only place the PS Vita succeeded is Japan, the XBox definitely failed there.

Mother 3 wasn't released anywhere outside of Japan, and it wasn't the translation aspect that held it back.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's try to be more respectful about other opinions. Even when calling out incorrect information, there is no reason to go overboard in your way of talking.

Describing something as "moronic", for instance, is becoming unnecessary as it just is flaming. Let's remember this is just a game and to not get worked up.

 

[FlawedAI]

I never said Isaac should be completely out of discussion, It's just that he's not as popular as people think, and to say Isaac would have been the character to make it in next would be completely disregarding vastly more likely characters like Waddle Dee and so on. And enough with that miracle ****, you say that about any group, Rideley was the ONLY character directly chosen from America, and Isaac wasn't that requested in Europe because 1 you don't have any proof, 2 golden sun didn't sell that well in most european countries and 3 why? Why would he be popular there in the first place? And do you realize that most of the fan polls aren't accurate to the whole community? And that source gaming poll is not only the most accurate poll we have from Japan right now, but also it is about the buzz of the character online IN JAPAN DURING THE BALLOT PERIOD. Those polls don't only have potential bias, but don't reflect the wants of the community at all. It's like America choosing whether to go Communist and only the Communist party get to vote.(don't say you can't make that comparison because I just did)

Okay so I'm going to take this point by point.
1. I'm not disregarding characters like Dee, or any others, it's my (and many others) personal opinion that Isaac was next. I feel like enough circumstantial evidence points to this being the case, as I detailed in my theory.
2. If we look at popular characters during the ballot era and those that made it into Smash, we can see that Ridley and K. Rool were really the only ballot choices. Inklings were obvious, Simon's a great third-party rep, and Incineroar didn't even exist until 2016. It's common knowledge that Ridley was a huge request for a long time, and when he was finally revealed, Japanese players started calling him "Captain America" jokingly, since he got almost zero support from over there. K. Rool, however, is considered a widespread request, and I believe that he might have been the overall winner, since he places highly on many polls. Additionally, echoes like Chrom, Dark Samus, and Richter are also fan choices, as if you look at the exit poll for the Smash ballot, both Chrom and Dark Samus placed quite highly.
3. Golden Sun sold exceptionally well in Europe. The first game sold 380,000 copies (according to VGChartz) alone in Europe, and the total sales reached 1.8 million lifetime. The Lost Age, the second game in the Golden Sun franchise, sold 270,000 copies in Europe, reaching 1.22 million lifetime sales. Dark Dawn sold much less, only selling 100,000 in Europe, but that game only reached 810,000 copies lifetime (which is still incredible for when it released in the DS's lifespan). So, both Golden Sun and The Lost Age happened to outsell a particular game that features a particular character you might know: Kirby's Return to Dreamland sold a whopping 210,000 copies in Europe, and its lifetime sales are 1.66 million, less than the first Golden Sun. You are simply wrong in your assertions that Golden Sun didn't sell.
4. Why would Bandana Dee be popular in Japan? I don't know, I'm not from Europe, but I imagine it's very similar to how I got drawn to him: his unique abilities, neat design, and excellent home series. It's a taste thing, man.
5. I know that polls don't represent the entire voting population, but it's about sample size. In the exit poll with over 45,000 votes, Isaac placed second worldwide. The only character ahead of him? King K. Rool. It's by far the largest exit poll we have, and is fairly reflective of what we got in Ultimate. The top 10 featured 5 characters that didn't make it: Paper Mario, Bandana Dee, Shovel Knight, Banjo-Kazooie, and Isaac. Of the top 10 that did make it, Bayonetta, Inkling, Snake, Wolf, and King K. Rool, the four returned in Ultimate. This poll is highly reflective of what actually happened.
6. Yep, I've already admitted that Bandana Dee beats Isaac in Japan. He's definitely the most requested over there, so if there was a Japan pick, it'd probably be him. However, he doesn't have the worldwide popularity Isaac has. The Source Gaming poll is very reflective of Japan's picks, but this game's fan service wasn't just about Japan, and Ridley is the proof.
7. I don't think these polls have bias, and I believe them to be reflective of the general community during the ballot era. Just like how political polls don't actually show what's going to happen, they usually can predict a general theme and results, just like these polls.