JOJONumber691
Smash Lord
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YES YES! A THOUSAND TIMES YES! THIS WOULD BE HILARIOUSLY ACCURATE LOL!
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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion
- Thread starter Cyn
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Ugh, I'm glad I never mained Jill. Just throw in a different character. Never massively overhaul a character in a sequel. That only makes them impossible to adjust to and less fun to use. And I know a lot of fighting games use styles, so she should've had both movesets anyway.
No thanks to Dead Man's Volley. If it isn't properly reflectable by any kind of weaponary attack in general, what's the point? Go full canon or don't bother(especially with how hypocritical it'd be to ignore canon with this move, but Ganondorf being non-canon is suddenly okay if it's just one iconic move, that's not even a legitimate signature move to him?). Warlock Punch actually is usable now, unlike before, due to quite a lot of armor.
Now what needs to outright go is his Up Tilt. That's completely unusable, and doesn't even work in his moveset. All his other moves flow just fine, and have their own unique uses. And Dark Dive really could be changed out for Dark Fists. That actually feels right, though less useful since you can't combo with it. I could go either way on that. Keeping in mind I've gotten a massive amount of KO's easily with Warlock Punch, and that's without Super Armor(plus, it is based upon something he actually did in the games. Wizard's Foot barely is, and the Up Tilt isn't).
As for Falcondorf, just wait for another possible Ganondorf variation or "styles" as an option. You should never get rid of the old moveset. It serves no purpose other than pissing off fans just for the sake of it. It's one thing to throw a slightly different one on another character for a past moveset(effectively that's what Dr. Mario is for Mario, but he also already played that way so it doesn't alienate fans). Overall, I'm glad Sakurai is sticking with this philosophy. I wouldn't even bother playing Ganondorf if he wasn't who he was from the start of Smash. Sure, I'd have likely used him if he wasn't a Falcon clone, but the way he generally plays is massively enjoyable to me.
Also, no, not everybody needs to be competitively viable. That's not how fighting games work. It appeals to all kinds of players. They just need to have a flowing enough moveset to be easy to use. Fun is subjective, but he hit him with each character overall. The ones who got changes to be better were either joke characters or weren't even worth using in casual play(Ganondorf is just fine in casuals in each game).
To further go into DMV, the move was actually Agnahim's from the start(so was the lightning ball). What Ganondorf in OOT did was reuse Agnahim's moves to reeneact a cool boss fight, but in 3D. In addition, what was actually unique to him was his ground punch(which Warlock Punch represents, though Wizard's Foot partially does too for the animations), and that's really it at that point. Otherwise, one of his promotional images is his fist-fighting with Link via an overhead punch, which is his Forward Aerial. So he was pretty much, from the start, intended to be mostly about power with some projectiles. But he still is clearly a magic user in Smash(Smash however lists Darkness instead, due to "Magic" being its own unique element for purposes of special items that give buffs. Which is silly, but that's how it does it. Magic in general focuses on some kind of specific school or element. Generic magic really never existed as is).
The Lighting Ball wouldn't be bad, as it at least is something he uses more than once, though not that often. In OOT and TP. To even more elaborate on what's silly about DMV is that not only did the move not have a legitimate name till the DS games, it also is thrown onto tons of bosses. It's very iconic, yes, but also to Agnahim and Phantom Ganon. In addition, a list of some of users are Agnahim(the original), Nightmare/Shadow Agnahim, Phantom Ganon, Ganondorf, Phantom Ganon(again), Twinrova, a Blue Stalfos, Cubus Sisters, and I forget if it was Yuga or Yuga Ganon for the last one. Though to be fair, Yuga is a otherworld counterpart of Ganondorf, however, Agnahim is supposed to be a form of Ganon(it's unclear if he's possesed or his human form at the time of the actual game. Though with Ganondorf an actual thing now, it's most likely a poesession. The Manga/Comics vary on it too, incidentally), so for the most part, the move has a lot of ties to Ganon or people under him. Except now a literal generic enemy starts using it... which is the point it lost all meaning as being a core boss move to any particular character. It's best to think of it as "a cool boss move in Zelda to use" at that point. Since that's its purpose. Who knows what name it would've had in Brawl at that point if it was given to Ganondorf(though frankly only Toon Ganondorf would've used it. TP Ganondorf definitely does not have it, nor is it ever once used in the game. The lighting ball is, which imo, fits Ganondorf better in Smash, since it is a lot easier to represent properly).
Lastly, I've seen that Legacy moveset. I was impressed by the work itself, but it didn't look very enjoyable to me. It didn't flow whatsoever and just looked like it was trying too hard to throw in canon moves without taking into account how to make a moveset work. It's cool, no doubt. But cool doesn't make the character actually work. It's why when I work on movesets nowadays, I focus on an actual theme and point to them. "Canon" is not a strong thing to work in itself. It only is a small piece and is at best good for animations/references to think on. Smash is not designed to be really about canon, otherwise you couldn't fill out a single proper moveset in Smash 64. Mr. Game & Watch is the first and only charactr to actually be nothing but straight canon moves(well, canon is kind of awkward to say for him, since there is no "Mr." specifically. That's specific to Smash in itself, but you get the idea). No other character can actually pull it off. The only other one who came close was Mario, and it wasn't all that close. He has a fair amount of moves from his games, but many had to be thrown in(practically all his aerials, his dash attack, even his taunt isn't really from the games directly. Though almost no taunts are, so that's forgiveable. Note that the taunt is a light reference to Big Mario, but he's already Big. The idea of growing huge didn't even come up till after Smash anyway. Mario Party used that in the GameCube days, so, it's kind of a unique one?). Generally, the special moves were usually the only thing based around canon, though some were references instead(Fox's Reflector and Fire Fox are loosely based upon his ship. The Laser is a much more clean reference. On foot, he actually doesn't use a Laser gun anyway, so... it's still odd in a way).
I could go on, but Smash just doesn't work trying too hard to focus on canon for most characters. The exceptions are super few, and only because they were able to create a good flowing moveset.
I did forget to mention the sword. The only reason it kind of works is he was going to be thrown a non-canon sword in Smash in Melee by design anyway. It feels awkward in Ultimate and while nice, it at least fits his gameplay style correctly. Despite the awkwardness, it flows right in the end. This is overall why I still can have fun playing as him. He's a little difficult to adjust to, but he still feels like he was since the beginning. Though I'll again note I doubt I would've actually mained him if he wasn't a slow massive power user. That's overall what made him feel like Ganondorf to me. The guy with the Triforce of Power. The strongest man in Hyrule. The king of evil. He overall feels just like that in Smash, and has since Melee. Brawl admittedly only made him feel even more murderous and the right personality.
Now what needs to outright go is his Up Tilt. That's completely unusable, and doesn't even work in his moveset. All his other moves flow just fine, and have their own unique uses. And Dark Dive really could be changed out for Dark Fists. That actually feels right, though less useful since you can't combo with it. I could go either way on that. Keeping in mind I've gotten a massive amount of KO's easily with Warlock Punch, and that's without Super Armor(plus, it is based upon something he actually did in the games. Wizard's Foot barely is, and the Up Tilt isn't).
As for Falcondorf, just wait for another possible Ganondorf variation or "styles" as an option. You should never get rid of the old moveset. It serves no purpose other than pissing off fans just for the sake of it. It's one thing to throw a slightly different one on another character for a past moveset(effectively that's what Dr. Mario is for Mario, but he also already played that way so it doesn't alienate fans). Overall, I'm glad Sakurai is sticking with this philosophy. I wouldn't even bother playing Ganondorf if he wasn't who he was from the start of Smash. Sure, I'd have likely used him if he wasn't a Falcon clone, but the way he generally plays is massively enjoyable to me.
Also, no, not everybody needs to be competitively viable. That's not how fighting games work. It appeals to all kinds of players. They just need to have a flowing enough moveset to be easy to use. Fun is subjective, but he hit him with each character overall. The ones who got changes to be better were either joke characters or weren't even worth using in casual play(Ganondorf is just fine in casuals in each game).
To further go into DMV, the move was actually Agnahim's from the start(so was the lightning ball). What Ganondorf in OOT did was reuse Agnahim's moves to reeneact a cool boss fight, but in 3D. In addition, what was actually unique to him was his ground punch(which Warlock Punch represents, though Wizard's Foot partially does too for the animations), and that's really it at that point. Otherwise, one of his promotional images is his fist-fighting with Link via an overhead punch, which is his Forward Aerial. So he was pretty much, from the start, intended to be mostly about power with some projectiles. But he still is clearly a magic user in Smash(Smash however lists Darkness instead, due to "Magic" being its own unique element for purposes of special items that give buffs. Which is silly, but that's how it does it. Magic in general focuses on some kind of specific school or element. Generic magic really never existed as is).
The Lighting Ball wouldn't be bad, as it at least is something he uses more than once, though not that often. In OOT and TP. To even more elaborate on what's silly about DMV is that not only did the move not have a legitimate name till the DS games, it also is thrown onto tons of bosses. It's very iconic, yes, but also to Agnahim and Phantom Ganon. In addition, a list of some of users are Agnahim(the original), Nightmare/Shadow Agnahim, Phantom Ganon, Ganondorf, Phantom Ganon(again), Twinrova, a Blue Stalfos, Cubus Sisters, and I forget if it was Yuga or Yuga Ganon for the last one. Though to be fair, Yuga is a otherworld counterpart of Ganondorf, however, Agnahim is supposed to be a form of Ganon(it's unclear if he's possesed or his human form at the time of the actual game. Though with Ganondorf an actual thing now, it's most likely a poesession. The Manga/Comics vary on it too, incidentally), so for the most part, the move has a lot of ties to Ganon or people under him. Except now a literal generic enemy starts using it... which is the point it lost all meaning as being a core boss move to any particular character. It's best to think of it as "a cool boss move in Zelda to use" at that point. Since that's its purpose. Who knows what name it would've had in Brawl at that point if it was given to Ganondorf(though frankly only Toon Ganondorf would've used it. TP Ganondorf definitely does not have it, nor is it ever once used in the game. The lighting ball is, which imo, fits Ganondorf better in Smash, since it is a lot easier to represent properly).
Lastly, I've seen that Legacy moveset. I was impressed by the work itself, but it didn't look very enjoyable to me. It didn't flow whatsoever and just looked like it was trying too hard to throw in canon moves without taking into account how to make a moveset work. It's cool, no doubt. But cool doesn't make the character actually work. It's why when I work on movesets nowadays, I focus on an actual theme and point to them. "Canon" is not a strong thing to work in itself. It only is a small piece and is at best good for animations/references to think on. Smash is not designed to be really about canon, otherwise you couldn't fill out a single proper moveset in Smash 64. Mr. Game & Watch is the first and only charactr to actually be nothing but straight canon moves(well, canon is kind of awkward to say for him, since there is no "Mr." specifically. That's specific to Smash in itself, but you get the idea). No other character can actually pull it off. The only other one who came close was Mario, and it wasn't all that close. He has a fair amount of moves from his games, but many had to be thrown in(practically all his aerials, his dash attack, even his taunt isn't really from the games directly. Though almost no taunts are, so that's forgiveable. Note that the taunt is a light reference to Big Mario, but he's already Big. The idea of growing huge didn't even come up till after Smash anyway. Mario Party used that in the GameCube days, so, it's kind of a unique one?). Generally, the special moves were usually the only thing based around canon, though some were references instead(Fox's Reflector and Fire Fox are loosely based upon his ship. The Laser is a much more clean reference. On foot, he actually doesn't use a Laser gun anyway, so... it's still odd in a way).
I could go on, but Smash just doesn't work trying too hard to focus on canon for most characters. The exceptions are super few, and only because they were able to create a good flowing moveset.
I did forget to mention the sword. The only reason it kind of works is he was going to be thrown a non-canon sword in Smash in Melee by design anyway. It feels awkward in Ultimate and while nice, it at least fits his gameplay style correctly. Despite the awkwardness, it flows right in the end. This is overall why I still can have fun playing as him. He's a little difficult to adjust to, but he still feels like he was since the beginning. Though I'll again note I doubt I would've actually mained him if he wasn't a slow massive power user. That's overall what made him feel like Ganondorf to me. The guy with the Triforce of Power. The strongest man in Hyrule. The king of evil. He overall feels just like that in Smash, and has since Melee. Brawl admittedly only made him feel even more murderous and the right personality.
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Actually, some folks already are edgy forum goers.
Everybody is a little bit edgy. It’s just that not everybody realizes it!
After all, you gotta be careful that you don’t cut yourself on the edge!
Guynamednelson
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More like Mewtwo's nair.
random rendum
Smash Journeyman
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A certain Mysterious Mr. L? But who could he be the echo of? It's not like there's anyone in Smash that...
No... You're telling me that Mr. L is Mario?!
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ChunkySlugger72
Smash Lord
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Without a doubt he was the number one requested character and most glaring roster omission in "Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale".
Some forget to mention that Sony didn't give Superbot Entertainment (Developer) and Sony Santa Monica studio much of a budget with the game as it really shows with the presentation and 3rd party picks.
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This just makes me want Shadow more. It helps even his main theme from Sonic Adventure 2 was edgy(though it got worse with the final stage theme he had. Jeez...).
I know we joke about Ow The Edge, but he never felt incorrect to me during that game. Bar the weird swearing. He always fought while never holding back, and he grew up on a military base. He'll use whatever tools gets the job done. That's what really made me love the character. Heroes on the other hand took away a lot from him and made him too damn cheesy. Shadow's hardly a perfect game, but he felt like himself far more. Sonic 06 then went beyond that and even furthered solidified him for me. Extremely badass, powerful, and knows when it's okay to use a tool to get the job done. He doesn't care about things like "I only need my own power", cause that doesn't matter. He has nothing to prove at that point. He was aware in the end he would be imprisoned for his own power and still fought till the end against the main villain. That's what I like about him. Sadly this transferred poorly to Sonic X as at a point he just seemed mean for the sake of it at times. That and he was clearly overpowered in the show. ...Sonic Boom(games and show) ruined him on the other hand entirely, by making him just an ass for the sake of it. The show is even worse, since he's a villain for literally no reason. At least Metal Sonic was kind of cool?
RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
I would actually be fine with that. Just make Ganondorf really feel like Ganondorf instead of Falcondorf.
RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
If Activision is going to pull a Sephiroth on us, I hope they tell Sakurai to put in Spyro alongside Crash.
SharkLord
Smash Hero
I feel like we could move Warlock Punch to the down special so we can turn the aerial version into the Ground Punch. The Warlock Punch has basically become the Ganondorf move and managed to get adapted into canon to some degree, while Warlock Kick is just a kick.
Faso115
Smash Lord
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Unlikely. Given how mangled the first 2 spyro games were in japan, that side of the world doesn't like Spyro as much as they love Crash.
So its either Crash alone or an echo
Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
Oh they don't even need to announce a third pass, no Vergil 2 means i'll start a riot
pupNapoleon
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I guess my point is- that's been me, that's half of America- it's many other countries, but not by choice, but because we cannot just refuse to work.
I guess my point is- that's been me, that's half of America, but not by choice, but because we cannot just refuse to work.
Then I'm more of a fan. I'm tired of the male equivalent being a prepubescent boy (I assume Shulk is 12. Maybe he is 14. Or Immortal. Or an Eternal. I dont understand the world wherein after deah you become a blade (Pokemon) ).
D
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Guest
So do we know how long the Sephiroth presentation will be?
The Min Min presentation was 35 minutes long, and the Steve presentation was 45 minutes long.
cringe edgy.
The Min Min presentation was 35 minutes long, and the Steve presentation was 45 minutes long.
Honestly, I am quite
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Do you mean Age of Calamity? Or something else? Cause I don't know if that's canon, or just incorporating BOTW as its own separated storyline.
I never actually heard what is what in that situation. Though hey, if it's canon, even better. I would be more than okay with HW being a canon alternate universe(in a similar way like Termina is).
Otherwise, he has yet to use it in any of the regular Zelda games. ...It'd help if he was used again, though. Thankfully BOTW sequel is coming eventually~
RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
I somewhat agree. But the Spyro series has sold over like more than 20 million in sales while Banjo-Kazooie have sold under 10 million. Spyro might not be as big as Crash or Banjo in Japan, but he's just as big as them in the west. I would say Spyro is a bigger gaming icon than Banjo & Kazooie and this is coming from the mouth of a big Banjo-Kazooie fan.
JOJONumber691
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I'm talking an Echo with Crash, not a literal impossibility.
RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
I just saw that. My bad for misreading it or not reading it all.
JOJONumber691
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It's fine. But yeah Activision is getting Coco in with Crash lol.
kirbsmash
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he's 18-19, c'mon now. The dude is an scientist.
Evil Trapezium
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Why would Coco be an echo of Crash Bandicoot? Inkling Boy and Female Byleth both showed that alternate costumes can have different idle animations and taunts. She could easily be an alternate costume.
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TheTuninator
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"Making the mother of all omelettes here, Mario - can't fret over every egg!"
I sometimes want trailers to be connected. This would be such a glorious addition
D
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I don't get why people are constantly claiming an echo will occur attached to a character in FP2. It never happened in FP1, and FP2 is clearly going off the same format that FP1 had. You know, a character, stages, songs, and spirits. They aren't going to fudge up their own rules.
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SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
I agree with the second point. Dead Man's Volley should be able to be hit back by any attack. I guess the reason why people are apprehensive about that is because Gordos suck, but I think there are solutions to that. For example, unless the projectile is reflected by an actual reflector, Ganondorf could passively hit the ball back if he's not in the startup or end lag of something.
EDIT: Honestly it's probably less that Gordos suck and more that King Dedede sucks too much to make use of them properly. They do have their uses, and can be quite strong with the right setups.
100% agree. Volcano Kick has no reason to exist while Warlock Punch does. It's literally just Warlock Punch, but only on the ground, completely stationary, and not nearly powerful enough to justify the startup. Just replace it with a weaker version of his old Up Smash or something. Give him a good anti-air.
I think I get why I disagreed with this before. It's because Smash Ganondorf is like that barbarian wizard meme who's all like "I cast FIST!", and you don't get to see his more cunning side, which is a shame because that's probably what sets Ganondorf apart from Ganon the most. I think adding Dead Man's Volley to his Neutral Special (while keeping Warlock Punch as a held input so you can still do it if you want) would go a long way to fixing that, and might even fix it entirely. It shouldn't take over his gameplan like Gordos do for King Dedede (that would be pretty dumb and annoying), but I think the ability to attack at range would be something that Ganondorf could appreciate, and it shouldn't really come at the cost of any of his power since there's no way you could play keepaway with it.
Top 10 anime crossovers.
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Agreed on Incin, perhaps give it a slight ability to angle Up-B so it's not completely linear.
TBF re: K.Rool, the animation thing is to make it more accurate (that's probably why Sakurai and Bamco were comfortable giving it buffed armor). But still, the trade-off is dumb - I'd prefer if K.Rool could choose to either put the crown back onto the head or use it as a regular item on the return. It'd allow him to do the nasty item combos as well, with the animation as a still-existing trade-off.
Dedede... yeah. The problem probably stems from him being a floaty, multiple-jump heavy and thus he's undertuned elsewhere. Gordos should not be sent back by everything - perhaps make them impervious to jabs, some multi-hits and some tilts for starters? I haven't thought much about Dedede's grab though - if I may ask, do you mean that the relative lack of reward that harms him here, or the fact that he can't reliably initiate grabs to begin with?
The Ground Punch would be Aerial Wizard's Foot, but even more disrespectful. I'm not sure if I find the idea completely unneccessary or completely hilarious. Probably both. Considering we have this as baseline:
"Genetical engineering, hmm? Sorry, but your JENO-whatever cells won't stand a chance against Nanomachines...
I sometimes want trailers to be connected. This would be such a glorious addition
...Son."
JOJONumber691
Smash Lord
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One has different weapon position, the other is holding a laptop.
kirbsmash
Smash Champion
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How did you get this idea from??? No, Skulk isn't an minor so...again, HOW did you get this idea?
Hydreigonfan01
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Every major character in Xenoblade 1 is at least 18.
I.D.
Smash Lord
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do americans really
pupNapoleon
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The more you know! I'm learning much more about this.
But I think it's completely irrelevant to other nations, who are forced to work to death via lack of healthcare, necessity to work more hours, and not making a humane wage.
They seem related but fully different.
D
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Guest
No, no. Yes, it would be a good callback if Dead Man's Volley was able to be reflected by any attack, but don't you know how bad of a move that would be?
If Ganondorf was to go against Pikachu, Pikachu could easily reflect that with a jab, and Ganondorf's moves are a lot slower, so he may struggle against Pikachu if he even uses that move. It could go wrong for Ganondorf in terms of a balancing perspective if they go through with that.
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pupNapoleon
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I was clearly estimating. I had no idea he is 22 and secretly a scientist. He looks underage.
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
I wouldn't get rid of all of the end lag, just enough for him to get more use out of Krownerang than just hitting people with it. I'm not so sure about letting King K. Rool use the crown as an item since characters with items tend to only use their items, and I don't think that would fit the character, but for goodness sake just let people cancel the pickup animation!
Problem is, you can't not have him be a floaty, multi-jump heavy. Those attributes are who he is. You might could do with lowering his damage output in exchange for attacks that aren't so laggy. Kirby bosses don't generally boatloads of damage anyway. It's the war of attrition that The Arena is that makes the bosses hard.
Perhaps instead of going with the fact that Kirby bosses are easy to avoid, but hard to perfect, they should go for how the fight dynamic works; When it's their turn, it's their turn. Attacking them while they're attacking is almost always inadvisable.
EDIT: Oh, and I don't think King Dedede needs grabs, it's just an archetype that he's a part of that he doesn't really get to abuse the benefits of all that much. It's really just the survivability part, and that also works against him.
That's why I suggested a passive ability to knock the ball back. So like if the Pikachu player is camping with Thunder Jolts, and just Forward Airs the projectile, then the Ganondorf player can just jump over one of the Thunder Jolts into the ball, and so long as the player doesn't hit any attack buttons or try to air dodge, Ganondorf will automatically hit the ball back with no input from the player. That way the projectile is always in his favor, not his opponent's.
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Evil Trapezium
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So? What's a laptop going to do to stop Coco from being a alternate costume? She is a literal skin of Crash Bandicoot in both the N.Sane trilogy and Crash 4.
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That's exactly why it doesn't work in Smash as well as an idea. It means it's completely worthless as a projectile cause nearly everybody can reflect it. The Electric Ball he has is actually far more useful as a move, and workable via the canon version. It's not meant for any kind of real player use. It's designed directly to be something a player fights against.
His old Up Smash is a bit too strong for that. His Melee one, that was basically Falcon's, actually does work better as a combo move. Though maybe just a single hit, but only semi-strong? So kind of like mix of Melee/Brawl. This way it feels like a more proper tilt. Albeit, his Forward Tilt is ridiculous, but it also fits so damn well with his personality.
I will note that Ganondorf clearly isn't designed to be cunning in Smash. He also never really showed that whatsoever in TP anyway. He was actually just a brute(which to be frank, makes it hilarious that Sakurai went with that in Brawl). It's what improved him so damn much. The cutscenes never transferred over to proper gameplay anyway, just a special thing in the SSE only. Very few of those were shown off in multiplayer. So his cunning is there, but only when there's actual story to it.
GoodGrief741
Smash Legend
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- Sep 22, 2012
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- 10,169
"Secretly a scientist" lol, someone hasn't played Xenoblade
Momentary
Smash Cadet
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you didnt assume that when he called shulk 12?
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
I think the deal is that while her abilities line up with Crash's pretty exactly, her personality and mannerisms really don't. You might could get it to work, but it'd be a pretty difficult task to portray them differently without any gameplay differences.
Wait wut? Wasn't he behind the scenes the entire time manipulating Zant and being the reason he started his conquest in the first place?
Or am I just remembering wrong? I'm honestly not sure.
To be fair it doesn't really come up much. It's mostly the beginning, and a few sidequests where he has special dialogue.
SNEKeater
Smash Master
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- Sep 4, 2019
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