Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[pupNapoleon]

Did people forget that ARMS has in game lore? That Spring Man is actually the 3rd generation to take that title and Spring Man is seen as a local hero? Did people forget that Dr. Coyle created a Springtron robot because she saw Spring Man as something special? Then there's Max Brass and his connection to Spring Man. The in-game artwork and lore drops hints that Max Brass might have been the original Spring Man especially since they have similar powers.

"But Spring Man is just the guy on the box!"

...and in that lore, Min Min wins the championship. I cannot think of another fighting game wherein the first game, the not-lead wins. Hmm.....

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Yeah, but Waluigi's just one example among many.

Can you actually look at any of Ultimate's other Assist Trophies and prove or at least fairly say the uproar over their inclusion as one was as bad as it was for Waluigi?

Easy.

Spoiler: Large image

 

[Lamperouge]

I rarely play Smash with items on so having some of my favorite characters being turned into assist trophies does almost nothing for me.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Then again, if Spring-Man weren't an Assist Trophy by that point, then it's possible that Spring Man would've taken priority and that Ninjara may not have even come to his mind. It calls into question whether or not Kosuke Yabuki would've personally requested Min Min by that point in time, too. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it's been clarified if her popularity at the time of the DLC decision-making process had anything to do with his request.

It's not. Min Min was the favorite of both fans, and the creator. Two separate statements.

Y'know, after all is said and done, I think we'll see Spring Man make an appearance as a fighter in the next game thanks to multiple factors (Spring Stadium being Min Min's stage, Min Min being in at all).

That reminds me, considering the ahem "tepid" reactions to Assist Trophies in this game, what do you lot think will happen to them in the next? I know it's too early to be thinking about this sort of stuff, I just can't shake off the feeling that the concept as a whole may get the axe because of the drama.

I think assist trophies are likely really cool to the general fanbase- they get to see characters they know and don't know make an appearance. I believe that it's only the online community that reacts negatively to assist trophies, because of the perception that they cannot become fighters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I rarely play Smash with items on

And the majority of the remaining players by this point are like this as well. Another reason why the idea of AT promotions shouldn't be considered worse than Hitler.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Yes, but that doesn't mean you should stop wanting a character to be playable after their non-fighter representation is shown off. Otherwise a good chunk of the base game newcomers would've been different choices, as they were based off the ballot, which people assumed was for Smash 4 DLC.

That's not what I was saying at all. I've actually been defending non-playable upgrades for a while now. If you wanna continue supporting assisted characters, be my guest.

Speaking personally though, I'm typically content with them being in the game as is. But I totally understand the longing for the upgrade from others.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Easy.

Spoiler: Large image

View attachment 291676

Posting an image of a character doesn't prove anything though.

Isaac has been a popular newcomer request for years, but Golden Sun is also a relatively obscure series nowadays. The most uproar over Isaac being an AT again would've been from longtime fans of the series. Unless you're telling me some major corporations took notice of that or that massive petitions attaining millions of signatures happened because of this, then no, Isaac is hardly on the same level as Waluigi is on that front.

 

[RileyXY1]

I can't believe that people haven't gotten over Min Min getting in.

 

[SKX31]

Y'know, after all is said and done, I think we'll see Spring Man make an appearance as a fighter in the next game thanks to multiple factors (Spring Stadium being Min Min's stage, Min Min being in at all).

That reminds me, considering the ahem "tepid" reactions to Assist Trophies in this game, what do you lot think will happen to them in the next? I know it's too early to be thinking about this sort of stuff, I just can't shake off the feeling that the concept as a whole may get the axe because of the drama.

Several of them are likely to be upgraded IMHO, since they can use the ATs themselves as very very rough bases for Smash 6 characters (depending on when Smash 6 starts of course). It would be one way to mitigate the talks of cuts, and there are quite a few characters that Nintendo could choose from. They could promote say 5 ATs in Smash 6 and be off to a decent start (provided they get enough dev time of course).

The concept's not getting the axe though. It's a pretty good way to include significant characters who don't make the playable roster, and the drama was hyper-focused around a couple ATs (Waluigi, Isaac) - but the vast majority of ATs faced little-to-no complaints IIRC.

 

[RileyXY1]

Several of them are likely to be upgraded IMHO, since they can use the ATs themselves as very very rough bases for Smash 6 characters (depending on when Smash 6 starts of course). It would be one way to mitigate the talks of cuts, and there are quite a few characters that Nintendo could choose from. They could promote say 5 ATs in Smash 6 and be off to a decent start (provided they get enough dev time of course).

The concept's not getting the axe though. It's a pretty good way to include significant characters who don't make the playable roster, and the drama was hyper-focused around a couple ATs (Waluigi, Isaac) - but the vast majority of ATs faced little-to-no complaints IIRC.

That of course assumes that Smash 6 is going to build off of Ultimate, instead of going in a fully new direction.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Posting an image of a character doesn't prove anything though.

Isaac has been a popular newcomer request for years, but Golden Sun is also a relatively obscure series nowadays. The most uproar over Isaac being an AT again would've been from longtime fans of the series. Unless you're telling me some major corporations took notice of that or that massive petitions attaining millions of signatures happened because of this, then no, Isaac is hardly on the same level as Waluigi is on that front.

What about this then?

Isaac Might Not Be Playable In Smash Ultimate, But Fans Spread The Love With #GoldenSunday Messages

A celebration of all things Golden Sun

www.nintendolife.com

1,323 people signed and won this petition

Isaac in Super Smash Bros Ultimate for DLC!

www.change.org

 

[pupNapoleon]

Honestly I think Sakurai cares more about that than Smash fans. As far as I know, the rework for Thanos was pretty well recieved (I mean, a character of his caliber shouldn't be known for being crap except for a bubble attack...not that his revamped moveset is at all interesting).

Also, I would love it if the weapon mechanic he had from Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 was expanded to Kirby levels. When ever he beats a character, Dr. Light sends Rush to give Mega Man a power inspired by the fighter. Mega Man also changes form like in Mega Man 11 so you know what power he has equipped.

As an example, beating Ryu gives Mega Man access to Hadouken. When having this weapon active, he swaps the helmet for a bandana, and his armour looks like a gi.


I think the answer is simple: Make a few (like one or two) playable characters into Assist Trophies as a way of saying "yes, the option is open. Shut up". Characters with boss patterns like Bowser or King Dedede would be good candidates to do this with, though if you really wanted to do it quick and dirty, you could just copy and paste a Final Smash like Octopus or Giga Bowser or something (though that might be a bit lazy looking).

I'd love a Petey Piranha assist.
Honestly, my only problem with Assist Trophies is that it is odd there are more fighters than players.

This is coming from a guy who wants Isaac and Bomberman quite badly, with the latter being one of the few characters I consider to be actually disconfirmed.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It's not. Min Min was the favorite of both fans, and the creator. Two separate statements.

Ah, I think I heard that she was the creator's favorite at some point but forgot it later on. In any case, that clears it up. Thank you!

And the majority of the remaining players by this point are like this as well. Another reason why the idea of AT promotions shouldn't be considered worse than Hitler.

???

Where did you even get the idea that people were bashing AT promotions that badly? None of us in this thread have saying or acting as such, at least.

What about this then?

Isaac Might Not Be Playable In Smash Ultimate, But Fans Spread The Love With #GoldenSunday Messages

A celebration of all things Golden Sun

www.nintendolife.com

1,323 people signed and won this petition

Isaac in Super Smash Bros Ultimate for DLC!

www.change.org

All I see here is people celebrating their favorite franchise and kindly requesting it's comeback on a level noticed by Nintendo Life, not people being up in arms by the the hundred thousands over the character failing to make the cut yet again to the point where multiple corporations take notice or getting meme'd to hell and back.

I feel like people are just exaggerating the uproar over Waluigi and extending it into Assist Trophies as a whole.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Actually, support characters have been upgraded in fighters before.

Like Pokken for example actually had Croagunk as a support mon initially, then still ended up making it playable later. And from what I recall, they kept the Croagunk support completely intact.

May still be unlikely, but I really wouldn't consider it impossible

 

[pupNapoleon]

Otherwise a good chunk of the base game newcomers would've been different choices, as they were based off the ballot, which people assumed was for Smash 4 DLC.

Does anyone else remember the ballot actually stating something, nearly identical, to "This is going to be used to determine Smash 4 and future titles," meaning, both more Smash and other Nintendo games (this last part is interpretation)?
I cannot tell if its the Mandela effect, but I swear I took mental note of this.

I'm beginning to realize the difference between mascots and protagonists is to Smash speculation as the quarter-circle motion is to competitive Smash.

I recall "mascot/protagonist" being phrased just like that often, as well as interchangeably.

... unrelated. What's the game in your signature with the Green Ranger? I've wanted to know for so long and kept forgetting to ask. It looks like a fun mod/concept game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Like Pokken for example actually had Croagunk as a support Mon initially, then still ended up making it playable later

It still has a support version of Croagunk. The fighter's super foreshadows how Croagunk can support Croagunk.

 

[Idon]

Actually, despite the strong stigma on assists being considered an automatic deconfirmation, support characters been upgraded in fighters before.

Like Pokken for example actually had Croagunk as a support Mon initially, then still ended up making it playable later

Yeah and Alex from Street Fighter V appears as a random dude in the background of a stage before he makes his official fighter appearance in-game.

I don't see how that has anything to do with Smash. A game doing something has no bearing on whether Smash does it or not, otherwise I'd be expecting Negan from the Walking Dead in by now.

 

[SharkLord]

We doing this again? Fine, I'll just reiterate my points that I've always used:

Based on the promotion of NPCs to playable like with Spirits, Spring Man being promoted in the ARMS guessing game like any other character, and Bomberman's Mii Costume being near-identical to his Assist Trophy, I don't think Sakurai or Nintendo care if a fighter is already an AT or not. However, the amount of ATs with a feasible chance of promotion is slim, and even then they have their own issues (Not enough content to support a Challenger's Pack, dormant series, lack of fan support, etc.).

There, I said it again. Please don't make me repeat it anymore...

 

[SKX31]

That of course assumes that Smash 6 is going to build off of Ultimate, instead of going in a fully new direction.

They wouldn't need to do that. They can just take a look at how the AT moves and attacks, construct a skeleton from there and voila, you've got something going (there would still be a lot of work in order to complete the transition from AT to fighter).

Waluigi for example already has a potential D-tilt, jump animation and weapon. That's some of the potential groundwork done.

Edit: I'm primarily thinking of Little Mac's transition from AT to fighter between Brawl and Smash 4. I'm not entirely sure if his Brawl uppercut is the progenitor of his KO Punch, but the Brawl uppercut is similarily powerful (being able to KO early).

Yeah and Alex from Street Fighter V appears as a random dude in the background of a stage before he makes his official fighter appearance in-game.

I don't see how that has anything to do with Smash. A game doing something has no bearing on whether Smash does it or not, otherwise I'd be expecting Negan from the Walking Dead in by now.

... Damn it, now I want Negan for Smash. Despite him being a practical impossibility.

Or someone else who would be as much of a "WTF" addition. I'll take that too.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I think when it comes to Assist Trophies, the best thing we can is remain realistic, but open-minded.

There's no official statement outright confirming they can never be Promoted to Playable (as TV Tropes puts it) in the same game they debuted at this point in time, but we also have no precedent for the idea actually being realized. Does that make it a fan rule? Yes, it very much does, but there's also no hard evidence to completely disprove it.

Until the DLC ends, or until Sakurai confirms either belief, we have no way or knowing for sure whether or not it could ever happen.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Anyone saying Isaac’s fallout wasn’t that bad must’ve missed the Grinch Leak...

oof

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The fact Isaac was totally absent from Smash 4 also gave his supporters hope for Ultimate

then... November 1st, 2018 happened

 

[pupNapoleon]

And the majority of the remaining players by this point are like this as well. Another reason why the idea of AT promotions shouldn't be considered worse than Hitler.

I'm not sure that's true...

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Anyone saying Isaac’s fallout wasn’t that bad must’ve missed the Grinch Leak...

oof

In my defense, the fallout for the Grinch Leak as a whole was far worse.

 

[SharkLord]

Anyone saying Isaac’s fallout wasn’t that bad must’ve missed the Grinch Leak...

oof

Just how bad was the fallout? I keep hearing about how bad it is... What it really that bad?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The fact Isaac was totally absent from Smash 4 also gave his supporters hope for Ultimate

then... November 1st, 2018 happened

Eh, in hindsight, the reason he didn't make the final cut, unlike Ken and Banjo-Kazooie, was probably because he wears a cape.

"NOVEMBER 1ST, 2018! CAPE SET ON FIRE BY INCINEROAR!"

"NO CAPES!"

 

[Slime Master]

I said this earlier but it got buried and is still relevant so: I don't think assist trophies deconfirm explicitly, but I do think Spring Man being an assist made them consider other ARMS characters more closely, which led to Min Min's other nice traits helping her get in. I think this could easily happen with any assist trophy too. IE, they might consider Waluigi, but because he already has a significant role, consider Captain Toad in his place. It doesn't mean assists can't get upgraded, but it does mean their path to playability has more obstacles than it would otherwise.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Just how bad was the fallout? I keep hearing about how bad it is... What it really that bad?

It was just very sad, which brought on anger.
Imagine thinking we would get 7 more characters- many fan favorites- and instead we get one of them and one Pokemon, and that's it for the base?

It was a very convincing leak for a number of coincidental reasons, from how it was done to timing of other events. While we did end up getting 2/7 (Ken + Banjo and Kazooie), I cannot say that getting Chorus Kids, Mach Rider, and Isaac (and also Shadow and Geno), isn't enticing. The first three are characters I really want, and Shadow is an easy echo that I thought should have been included, along with Protoman/Bass and Ms Pacman.

Edit: Normally the fan favorites would have caused more skepticism, sure- but this was coming off of Ridley and K.Rool. So in addition to all other circumstances, it was easy to want to believe.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I still stand by what I said regarding Waluigi.

I might not be familiar with GS, but I do actually support Isaac, among several other characters since Ultimate seems like the ideal and possibly last best chance for everyone's favorites to join the fight and duke it out together. That being said, I doubt Isaac's fallout would've been nearly as bad if the extremely elaborate Grinch Leak get so many people hopeful or hyped up about him, and especially if i hadn't convinced so many people he was in to begin with. That's a big factor to consider.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I thought I took a time machine back to March, why are we discussing Arms lore...

Because everyone has run out of new speculation to discuss given the lack of leaks or news and only thing we can do to keep things running is bringing up old stuff again.

 

[SNEKeater]

Anyone saying Isaac’s fallout wasn’t that bad must’ve missed the Grinch Leak...

oof

Yeah.
Isaac was absent in Smash 4, and after the ballot people expected something for Golden Sun in Smash because obviously Isaac made good numbers in the ballot. Ultimate was announced and the hype cycle began. As time passed people started having hope: his AT was absent, and so far, Ultimate was strongly catering to popular fan requests. I guess after Ridley and K. Rool, Isaac felt very likely.

Then the Grinch leak happened. It came out at the right time, it was a convincing leak for a lot of people, even with some coincidences that helped to it's credibility, like that healing item that some people thought it could be from Golden Sun, the infamous green pixels in Ultimate's banner that somewhat coincided with Isaac's placement in the Grinch leak, the Rathalos pic Sakurai posted...

To be honest, I still think it was understandable to consider the Rathalos pic as a Golden Sun reference. Not necessarily as a sign for Isaac being playable, but the angle of the photo, Rathalos, and the chosen characters looked like a clear reference to a certain Golden Sun boss fight.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Because everyone has run out of new speculation to discuss given the lack of leaks or news and only thing we can do to keep things running is bringing up old stuff again.

Still beats everyone guessing that "THE NEXT NEWCOMER WILL BE REVEALED NEXT WEEK" for three months.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Still beats everyone guessing that "THE NEXT NEWCOMER WILL BE REVEALED NEXT WEEK" for three months.

• Pikmin 3 Deluxe release
• Christmas/Winter update for New Horizons
• Release of Age of Calamity
• Placeholder for shadowdropped announcement

We only got at least three more things to get through before that will happen. Two if I was jumping the gun with that shadowdrop.

 

[Simplythe1]

I never expected just saying that I thought Spring Man was done dirty would lead to all....that.....

 

[pupNapoleon]

Still beats everyone guessing that "THE NEXT NEWCOMER WILL BE REVEALED NEXT WEEK" for three months.

I made a post 8 minutes after Steve was revealed that this would happen.

It didn't even take an hour for the first comments to be made.

________


The new event has posted- All Mouth.
Why is Wii Fit Trainer included in this?

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I swear we had a Grinch leak discussion of some sort somewhere in the last few weeks before today. Am I misremembering that?

I almost miss absent spirit speculation, that was one of the only old Ultimate theories that didn't resurge.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The new event has posted- All Mouth.
Why is Wii Fit Trainer included in this?

Deep Breathing. Apparently it's all about fighters who utilize their mouth in any form for a move, including exhaling in Wii Fit Trainer's case.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Deep Breathing. Apparently it's all about fighters who utilize their mouth in any form for a move, including exhaling in Wii Fit Trainer's case.

Wii Fit Trainer is the only character that breaths confirmed.

 

[ahemtoday]

If we need something new to discuss, uh...

Any of y'all heard of Zero Escape? Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors? SpikeChunsoft visual novel series whose first title was built around the DS in an extremely major way?

I'm not saying it's likely - it's absolutely not - but I'm surprised I've never heard anyone bring it up at all for Smash. And I've seen campaigns for pretty obscure stuff, but there's not even a respect thread.

Am I gonna have to become "the Junpei guy" the same way some of y'all are "the [somewhat obscure character] guy"?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Wii Fit Trainer is the only character that breaths confirmed.

No need for oxygen when the fighters are actually figures.