Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Can someone elaborate on this? I had no idea about this. This is an interesting little morsel of information.

There isn't much TO elaborate on, Sora didn't get voiced and unlike the rest of the DLC he didn't become a purchasable character, making him a limited time only character, si you'd need to hack the DLC in if you want Sora in your copy now

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

SuperSmashStephen You should probably stop double posting.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

There isn't much TO elaborate on, Sora didn't get voiced and unlike the rest of the DLC he didn't become a purchasable character, making him a limited time only character, si you'd need to hack the DLC in if you want Sora in your copy now

See, this to me is more damning of Sora’s chances than a former industry insider’s speculation. I’ll still hold out hope, but this does seem problematic.

 

[TriggerX]

I'm going to paraphrase Imran Khan here, because I see so much misinformation about the video in question:

"I think fighter pass 2 will include either Sora or Master Chief. Nintendo has approached Disney once about adding Sora to Smash. Disney Japan was the roadblock to it happening."

These are his thoughts. It's not a confirmation nor disconfirmation. He certainly doesn't believe that whatever issues there were when Nintendo and Disney talked previously are insurmountable, else he would not have opened the topic with the Sora/Master Chief prediction. All we can take away from it is that Nintendo wanted Sora at one point in time and Disney Japan stopped it from happening then. That's it.

Which is odd to think the Japan branch has that kind of veto power considering its a western based company. You would think a big decision like that would make its way to the Main Headquarters somehow.

 

[merchantofsalt]

Which is odd to think the Japan branch has that kind of veto power considering its a western based company. You would think a big decision like that would make its way to the Main Headquarters somehow.

When was the last time Disney's Western marketing department was directly involved in Kingdom Hearts?

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

SuperSmashStephen You should probably stop double posting.

I did? Oops. I’m sorry. It was an honest mistake if I did. I wasn’t paying attention.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Well duh! It's no surprise that Sora isn't going to be in Smash.

He's too busy working on the game itself!

 

[TriggerX]

When was the last time Disney's Western marketing department was directly involved in Kingdom Hearts?

Who knows, I don't work at Disney personally, but if you do Id love to hear more.

I have no clue how they divvy up their marketing department to be honest with you. However, I don't think its as simple as KH being a Japanese game means that only the marketing team at Disney japan handles it.

 

[DevaAshera]

An unfortunate side-effect of the current third-party additions is that the bar has been raised "too high". Some people consider anything less than Crash Bandicoot or Master Chief a disappointment now, and that's pretty ungrateful.

Honestly, its been like that since Brawl. Imagine if Terry had been put into Brawl instead of Sonic?
People weren't that disappointed by Terry in Smash Ultimate though, so I don't think it'd be a big deal no matter who gets in.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've seen people talk about echoes with significant changes a lot of times so I'll just throw this out there: I think Ken's echo status is pretty much honorary; if not for the fact that he's the original fighting game clone he would be considered a unique character.

I think it's the other way around actually.

I think a lot of the Melee returners like Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, etc. would be considered echoes, but because them coming back was a big deal, they got honorary full character status when they clearly aren't.

I kind of wished Echo fighters used some of the custom moves from Smash 4 like for example, Instead of the Default moveset that peach has, Daisy would get the sleepy toad, flower bomber, light veggie and the floaty parasol custom movesets for her to use.

I also kind of wish Dr. Mario had the Mega Capsule, shocking sheet and the ol' one two custom moves. It'd give custom moves some use. That's just what I think.

God, so much this.

Give me Bass with a bunch of Mega Man's alternate Specials from 4!

 

[SKX31]

2. The only people who truly, 100%, without a doubt, know the fighters of Fighters Pass Volume 2. are Sakurai, his team, and some big shots at Nintendo.

Could some information slipped through the grape vine? Of course it could have, but I think that’s something Nintendo would have under pretty tight wraps. Look at Fighter Pass Volume 1. None of the characters ever really leaked. There was lucky speculation and lucky rumors but that’s just what it was, lucky guesses. I think it’s important that when you support a characters inclusion that you take everything you hear in regards to their inclusion/exclusion with a massive grain of salt. Especially if it’s coming from some rando on the internet.

If I may be a bit nitpicky: There's a reason why I've often mentioned Shuntaro Furukawa. He occupies two very important roles here: He's Nintendo's President and he's also Ultimate's Excecutive Producer. If anything there's a good reason to believe he's the main guy behind the FP suggestions. Not the only one (the other executives like Miyamoto and Doug Bowser are probably also aware and involved, and likely a few of Nintendo's legal and marketing staff) - but the central figure in the selections because he is deeply involved with both Sakurai and the other execs.

Which is odd to think the Japan branch has that kind of veto power considering its a western based company. You would think a big decision like that would make its way to the Main Headquarters somehow.

If we're talking megacorps like Disney (or Warner Bros., Universal, Tencent, or other megacorps Nintendo works with) they are pretty much so damned big that it's simply more effective for various sub-branches to handle the neccessary paperwork. Nintendo works with Universal's theme park division on one project, with Illumination (owned by Universal) on another (the upcoming Mario movie) for example.

 

[Kokiden]

Can't say I'm surprised that Disney are being Tom Nook when it comes to licensing, fees and permit of usage.

Limited time DLC? Did SE have to pay compound interest for every day Sora was in that game?

I'm not a huge advocate for Sora but even I can see that getting him into Smash is way more trouble, and costly, that he’s worth.

Sucks for his fans, but Disney being a total ***** to work with is what they're infamous for.

Wouldn't mind the music in Smash since Yoko Shimomura is amazing but it just ain’t happening, not when getting other characters is cheaper and less of a red tape headache.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Honestly, I'm not very surprised about this. I'm not a big Sora for Smash guy myself, but still, that is ****ed up.

 

[Ben Holt]

Hell, this is why I left my ex-friend in the first place!

If you're going to vilify me, you could at least use my name.

 

[Kokiden]

An unfortunate side-effect of the current third-party additions is that the bar has been raised "too high". Some people consider anything less than Crash Bandicoot or Master Chief a disappointment now, and that's pretty ungrateful.

Considering how high profile and hype inducing characters in season 1 pass were, could you blame them?

I don’t see anything wrong with expecting high profile characters, especially if they’ve got a huge legacy or fan following in the general gaming industry.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

An unfortunate side-effect of the current third-party additions is that the bar has been raised "too high". Some people consider anything less than Crash Bandicoot or Master Chief a disappointment now, and that's pretty ungrateful.

And this... this right here people is why we need more reps from Mega Man or Final Fantasy.

 

[Ben Holt]

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned, but out of over 2,000 pages, I could have easily missed it.

The Video Game Hall of Fame opened in 2015, and of the first year inductees, 3 out of 5 are represented in Smash.
This is positive for Doom Slayer and a World of Warcraft character if we take Smash to be a celebration of video games, as Sakurai calls it.

 

[Cosmic77]

Alternatively doing yet another Pikmin itself took too long and they scrapped Rock Pikmin altogether(or had no time to implement it).

Just to clarify, Rock Pikmin and Alph as a clone were separated thoughts. Rock Pikmin were intended with Olimar in general. Alph was considered as a clone(I think some work done too, but I forget that detail). In the end, the costume was decided upon since they weren't(for no reason given) able to make him a clone.

To be honest, it's not that being a costume is bad, it's that the animations and lack of voice make Alph look a lot different than he really is in his home games. So it's a disservice to the character. Even a voice would help a bit. Sure, the Pikmin are a core part of the character too(and either a lack of time or not having an idea of how to make the Pikmin and Alph combined stand out) are a thing too, but you could split up the Pikmin more or use only 3 Pikmin per character(or slightly more). You still have Rock Pikmin, Bulbmin, as well. You could even give Alph the Pikmin chain. Even if he became a fairly eh Echo Fighter like Daisy, just the animation changes alone(voice or no voice) would do wonders.

Keep in mind I'm not all that bothered he's a costume, but only cause I view Pikmin themselves as a core part of the character(and it was named Pikmin & Olimar in Japan, making it akin to Rosalina & Luma, though considering what the franchise is and the Pikmin kind of the general stars of the series, it makes some sense. That, and Olimar is described as "needing Pikmin to actually do stuff" on his Brawl profile page paints the picture of how important the partnership is to the design behind the character). So give more Pikmin, and Alph is an easy split in itself. Sadly, they might just pick another Captain instead for that...

Honestly, there's very little reason why Alph can't be an Echo fighter separate from Olimar. Animations and voice clips are essentially all Daisy has to distinguish herself from Peach.

I think Sakurai should do it just because it's so unlikely for Pikmin to receive another character until they create several new types of Pikmin.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I'm going to paraphrase Imran Khan here, because I see so much misinformation about the video in question:

"I think fighter pass 2 will include either Sora or Master Chief. Nintendo has approached Disney once about adding Sora to Smash. Disney Japan was the roadblock to it happening."

These are his thoughts. It's not a confirmation nor disconfirmation. He certainly doesn't believe that whatever issues there were when Nintendo and Disney talked previously are insurmountable, else he would not have opened the topic with the Sora/Master Chief prediction. All we can take away from it is that Nintendo wanted Sora at one point in time and Disney Japan stopped it from happening then. That's it.

This.

I don't know why everyone's going crazy over this when there's so much we don't know.

 

[Aerospherology]

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned, but out of over 2,000 pages, I could have easily missed it.
View attachment 261436

The Video Game Hall of Fame opened in 2015, and of the first year inductees, 3 out of 5 are represented in Smash.
This is positive for Doom Slayer and a World of Warcraft character if we take Smash to be a celebration of video games, as Sakurai calls it.

Technically it's not Pong.

Also, I'm calling an Angry Birds Mii hat

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, there's very little reason why Alph can't be an Echo fighter separate from Olimar. Animations and voice clips are essentially all Daisy has to distinguish herself from Peach.

I think Sakurai should do it just because it's so unlikely for Pikmin to receive another character until they create several new types of Pikmin.

Also, Daisy's animations does affect her hurtbox, so she isn't a 100% costume overall for Peach in the longrun. She's just the weakest gameplay variance of all Echoes to begin with. Alph would already have gameplay differences from animations alone(which is why it shouldn't be hard to do if they literally do nothing but give him new animations at this point).

I can get why he wasn't just yet. Rock Pikmin, a core idea that was intended for Olimar, at least, has a different model entirely. So that requires extra work if he wants to use that one. Otherwise, yeah, he should be. Albeit, Pikmin & Alph would be a far more fun take just due to correctly displaying his personality. I don't remember all the ideas, but one suggestion when talking on a Discord was to split the Pikmin up among them so they all have unique Pikmin. I think the core difference was while Alph still had the three original Pikmin, he also had Bulbmin and Rock Pikmin in place of White and Purple. Pikmin Chain is just a perfect way to separate them further akin to Chrom. You could also give the leaf-flower mechanic to Alph in return for the less useful Up B, maybe?

Pikmin has also been fairly inactive as a series, so a lower priority for an Echo I can understand too. The other Echoes make a lot of sense in context too. Richter and Simon were created together in a unique manner(combining their mechanics), Ken is from a very active series and is the "original" echo fighter. Dark Samus and Chrom are both from very active series and highly requested(Alph was still at least partially playable, albeit in an eh way). Daisy likewise too, and popular regardless(and actually doable quite easily, unlike Waluigi who needs a lot more work). Dark Pit and Lucina are hold overs from Smash 4.

That said, I wouldn't mind an Echo pack. Especially if Pikmin & Alph led it off, allowing more Pikmin & Olimar costumes, and it'd be a major change to what can happen. Especially since it'd lead to speculation of costume DLC too(which really, why can't some characters have more than 8 costumes anyway? It'd be nice, at least...).

 

[Deleted member]

Oh well, I pretty much could say that this is an avergae day in the Smash speculation thread. There's always going to be that someone who claims that **** is the means to end all, even though it won't be in the end.

I don't know if the Smash community ever does a damn thing change at all. Once it's all done, people just go back to being who they are, People should be like the Sonic song, Live and Learn. This sector just lives.

 

[N3ON]

Oh well, I pretty much could say that this is an avergae day in the Smash speculation thread. There's always going to be that someone who claims that **** is the means to end all, even though it won't be in the end.

I don't know if the Smash community ever does a damn thing change at all. Once it's all done, people just go back to being who they are, People should be like the Sonic song, Live and Learn. This sector just lives.

It's fine advice, but you're not really one to be throwing stones.

 

[Ben Holt]

Oh well, I pretty much could say that this is an avergae day in the Smash speculation thread. There's always going to be that someone who claims that **** is the means to end all, even though it won't be in the end.

I don't know if the Smash community ever does a damn thing change at all. Once it's all done, people just go back to being who they are, People should be like the Sonic song, Live and Learn. This sector just lives.

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

King Mickey costume for disney infinity was event exclusive. That's disney doing disney and that was still temporary kh content.
The whole Sora being temporary dlc for world of final fantasy was stated on the page. It's just another one of those rare collectables people do all that time like mew, or special event skins for games. Idk why use it like evidence that that Sora is not getting in smash.

It's also likely that they choose not to voice Sora because he is only an exclusive character, and it wouldnt be worth the labor to give a voice if its limited.
Another thing, don't assume square paid big royalties to disney when they were giving sora away for free.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Question: If there is a Pokémon from Sword & Shield that was chosen as one of the six fighters from FP2, do you think Sakurai and his team might take the extra effort and add some new PokéBall Pokémon? Not many, just a few like 5 or 6.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don’t know that it’s entirely smart to rule out any particular character when new information comes to light. With Sora, it’s a tough call because we simply don’t know.

If Disney shot down the prospect once, then it would suggest that something would need to change for Disney to actually allow it.

Then again, we’d need to know the timeline. I for one more or less feel it shouldn’t be surprising that Disney is quite strict with their properties, and as such I will temper my expectations of that quite steadily.

Sora would be a great pick though. I can appreciate that Nintendo at least tried.

Also, new avi!

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Sorry to shift the topic, but where can I get an image like this for Mega Man Zero?

 

[SpectreJordan]

Sorry, but that boat sailed the moment Snake was added in Brawl.

Sakurai has said many times that Smash represents all of gaming now.

And ngl, if Smash didn’t evolve and just stayed stagnant with no third parties/M rated characters, it would honestly be very anti hype imo, and I don’t think the speculation scene would be as active today if they didn’t take risks like that with the newcomers.

From what I've heard, Alph was actually the opposite case as Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario where-in he was originally going to be a separate character and use Rock Pikmin but they ended up scrapping that and just made him an alternate costume instead.
Though considering Lucina, Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, and the Koopalings were all either originally or are alternate costumes, it wouldn't have been that odd..would you want them to just say 'Olimar' still?
My only guess is that either they weren't satisfied with his differences or Pikmin wasn't a popular enough series to split him off.


Sorry dude, but I disagree with you soo hard.
Adding 3rd Parties into Smash has actually enhanced the game for me and many others. Like, I absolutely love Nintendo and their games, but I, like many Nintendo fans, also like series outside of them..so adding in Sonic, Mega Man, Cloud, Joker, etc has been nothing but awesome to me.
If you want Nintendo only, there's Melee and 64 or you can purposely not unlock/purchase any 3rd Parties.

Not to mention Nintendo doesn't really produce that many successful new IPs..so bringing in 3rd Parties helps add a bit of freshness to it, even if the 3rd Parties included are from older games they're at least new to Smash.

I don't mind third-parties, but I do think they should be spaced out more between other Nintendo characters. I'm not saying third-parties don't belong, but Smash has always had a focus on Nintendo franchises. That's kinda what got me hooked in the first place.

Plus, it's way harder to get a third-party you want than it is with first-parties. It's one company's characters vs all (realizable) video game characters in existence.

I think the main problem with Nintendo characters is that we’re at the point where the majority of them only appeal to HARDCORE Nintendo fan.

With the exception of like Waluigi, Dixie, more Pokemon & some Zelda characters, all of the Nintendo characters left wouldn’t really excite casual Nintendo fans & they definitely wouldn’t attract any potential new customers.

Casual Nintendo fans already have the notable secondary characters they may like such as Dedede, K Rool, Rosalina, etc...

Waddle Dee, Isaac, Geno, etc... would excite hardcore Nintendo fans but it would leave a lot of people scratching their heads or going “Oh okay... Meh”.

It’s nice to throw in some characters occasionally for hardcore Nintendo fans, but that’s not the only audience that Nintendo & Sakurai are trying to attract/appease to. Adding new worlds that are popular on a larger scale is a lot more exciting to most people. It really helps the crossover seem more grand & epic as opposed to “Lesser side character from a series that already has multiple characters” or “main character from a series that Nintendo let die”.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but that’s not the only audience that Nintendo & Sakurai are trying to attract/appease to

Which is something third-party stans also don't get. When your FP2 predictions are something like Crash, Doomguy, 2B, Steve, Dante, and Sora, you're mainly catering to what the general Western gaming audience likes. Likewise, if they were concerned about casuals, FP1 would've been a whole lot different.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Question: If there is a Pokémon from Sword & Shield that was chosen as one of the six fighters from FP2, do you think Sakurai and his team might take the extra effort and add some new PokéBall Pokémon? Not many, just a few like 5 or 6.

I highly doubt it, but I would love for that to happen. I also wish that every dlc would come with a new assist trophy so it would really feel like the representation is complete but I guess it's just a lot of work for something that is not that important.

 

[SvartWolf]

So I tried making a pass with female characters only with the guidelines of:

1. No female character represented in some way in Ultimate already(so spirits, mii costume, AT etc).
2. One per company.

1. Velvet Crowe(Tales of Berseria)
2. Amaterasu(Okami)
3. Sakura Shinguji(Sakura Wars)
4. Kasumi(Dead or Alive)
5. Reimu Hakurei(Touhou)
6. Fury(Darksiders)

Did this to mainly pass the time and I guess to see the potential female 3rd parties that can be added.

Morrigan - Darkstalkers (Capcom)
Ryza Stout - Atelier Ryza (koei tecmo/gust)
2B - Nier automata (square enix)
Alicia melchiott - Valkirya Chronicles (Sega)
Ring fit trainer - ring fit adventure (Nintendo)
Cadence - Crypt of the necrodancer (indie)

There, no side characters, from actually great smash worthy games that I would actually love having in smash, honorable mention, amateratsu (also from Capcom)

 

[Cosmic77]

I think the main problem with Nintendo characters is that we’re at the point where the majority of them only appeal to HARDCORE Nintendo fan.

With the exception of like Waluigi, Dixie, more Pokemon & some Zelda characters, all of the Nintendo characters left wouldn’t really excite casual Nintendo fans & they definitely wouldn’t attract any potential new customers.

Casual Nintendo fans already have the notable secondary characters they may like such as Dedede, K Rool, Rosalina, etc...

Waddle Dee, Isaac, Geno, etc... would excite hardcore Nintendo fans but it would leave a lot of people scratching their heads or going “Oh okay... Meh”.

It’s nice to throw in some characters occasionally for hardcore Nintendo fans, but that’s not the only audience that Nintendo & Sakurai are trying to attract/appease to. Adding new worlds that are popular on a larger scale is a lot more exciting to most people. It really helps the crossover seem more grand & epic as opposed to “Lesser side character from a series that already has multiple characters” or “main character from a series that Nintendo let die”.

To play devil's advocate, I'd argue half of the third-parties mainly appealed to hardcore fans. Banjo and Terry are far far away from being "large scale characters". Joker is pretty niche too, and the only reason why I didn't lump him with the other two is because he's fairly new. Hero is from an extremely iconic franchise, but that's mostly for Japan; it's moderately well-known at best in other parts of the world.

If we were talking about Steve or Sora, then yeah, obviously it'd be stupid to choose Dixie or Waluigi instead. But that's not who got in the first pass. Most of the characters we did get aren't as iconic, and I genuinely believe some of them (especially Terry) wouldn't cause as much hype as reveals of other Nintendo characters would have.

Question: If there is a Pokémon from Sword & Shield that was chosen as one of the six fighters from FP2, do you think Sakurai and his team might take the extra effort and add some new PokéBall Pokémon? Not many, just a few like 5 or 6.

I doubt it. SF and Bayo had to wait for a new game, and every DLC third-party so far has gotten squat.

If new Pokeball Pokemon are what you want, you'll probably have to wait until Smash 6.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Oh well, I pretty much could say that this is an avergae average day in the Smash speculation thread. There's always going to be that someone who claims that **** is the means to end all, even though it won't be in the end.

I don't know if the Smash community ever does a damn thing change at all. Once it's all done, people just go back to being who they are, People should be like the Sonic song, Live and Learn. This sector just lives.

Why don't you start by being the change you want to see yourself?

 

[Lamperouge]

I don’t know that it’s entirely smart to rule out any particular character when new information comes to light. With Sora, it’s a tough call because we simply don’t know.

If Disney shot down the prospect once, then it would suggest that something would need to change for Disney to actually allow it.

Then again, we’d need to know the timeline. I for one more or less feel it shouldn’t be surprising that Disney is quite strict with their properties, and as such I will temper my expectations of that quite steadily.

Sora would be a great pick though. I can appreciate that Nintendo at least tried.

Also, new avi!

It's gonna take a while for me to adjust to your new pfp since you've kept Edelgard for so long, but it looks great.

I take it that you're really enjoying your time with Automata, then? :-P

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Someone should get Vergeben on the case regarding this whole Sora fiasco.

 

[Idon]

Which is something third-party stans also don't get. When your FP2 predictions are something like Crash, Doomguy, 2B, Steve, Dante, and Sora, you're mainly catering to what the general Western gaming audience likes. Likewise, if they were concerned about casuals, FP1 would've been a whole lot different.

Except 2B, Dante, and Sora are from Japanese properties with huge Japanese followings...?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Except 2B, Dante, and Sora are from Japanese properties with huge Japanese followings...?

I know that. What I mean is that western Smash fans believe they're realistic predictions because western gamers are very familiar with them, when that wasn't Nintendo's criteria.

 

[Lamperouge]

Someone should get Vergeben on the case regarding this whole Sora fiasco.

I thought you turned against Vergeben?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I thought you turned against Vergeben?

Not anymore its clear he had gotten misinformation.