Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SNEKeater]

Smash fans only make these conspiracy theories when they dislike the new character, if Banjo was fighter 4 I'm pretty sure no one would have brought up that stupid idea lol

 

[Deleted member]

Was watching a PapaGenos video, when this post was brought up.

View attachment 261316

PapaGenos said he believes he was just speculating (I really hope so), but what do you all think?

Would be pretty tough since they would have to come with a stage and Spirit board.

I'm SUPER late, but like others have said, this isn’t as much of a problem as people think it is.

There is still plenty of content from already represented series ( both first & third party ) that isn’t in Ultimate.
A bunch of iconic and unique worlds, places and levels to make fun and unique stages.
A treasure trove of great and catchy music tracks to port and remix.
And I can't stress this last one enough,
TONS of notable characters, enemies, bosses, ect. to make Spirits out of.

So no, It wouldn’t be pretty tough at all.

 

[cosmicB]

Considering we have, pretty much no one left from Fire Emblem they could add...

If we discount the 3H house leaders and spin-offs/Heroes, there are still 10 Fire Emblem main characters that are not represented in gameplay (discounting Lyn here because she's an AT). There are no reps from Sakurai's favorite game in the series (FE4).

 

[DevaAshera]

Some people say that another Fire Emblem will show up next pass because of Heroes, which I think is a pretty dumb assumption. Considering we have, pretty much no one left from Fire Emblem they could add... Unless they added someone from Cindered? Which I highly doubt, considering they already splurged on all the Three Houses content with Byleth.

I also don't think Heroes has enough to represent it, music wise, and I'm not really sure what they would do for the stage either? Tbh I already dislike Heroes so seeing someone from it would really suck, but I think it has a 0% chance to happen and Byleth is it for FE

In before Celica as an Echo Fighter of Robin~
..Just Kidding..though I am surprised she wasn't done for Base Game instead of Chrom.

 

[osby]

In before Celica as an Echo Fighter of Robin~
..Just Kidding..though I am surprised she wasn't done for Base Game instead of Chrom.

I'm not.

Celica is great, but Chrom was much more requested and is an easy echo. Her being a Robin clone doesn't make much sense. Just make her a Marth clone like Warriors did

 

[Cosmic77]

My last sentence is in response to you saying that we shouldn't have arguments/debates about Smash when we don't know what's in the second pass specifically because you seem to be disparaging the very act of discussing the possibilities of how Volume 2 might be handled. "No point in arguing when there's so little to go off of" was the exact phrase you used that just seems to be an attempt to shut down discussions despite there being plenty of things to reference in regards to speculating what might come next. Your interpretation of "nothing to discuss" is based inherently on discussing Volume 2 in a vacuum devoid of all the additional context of past Smash DLC and the other sources I listed.

Everybody in this thread knows their predictions could be wrong, but it's not exactly a negative point against them to say that they hold to their convictions until future evidence sways their thought process a different way. But, as myself and many others have pointed out, there is plenty of evidence and information to start making predictions and start using a variety of critical thinking skills to attempt to recognize what Volume 2 might look like. Meanwhile, you're the one who constantly belittles people trying to do that as saying there is "no evidence" to base our predictions and analysis of despite that blatantly being false. People sticking to their convictions on stuff after observing a body of evidence =/= complete confidence that this is 100% going to happen or that they don't see other interpretations.

I see you Pokemon interpretation for example, but I don't agree with the conclusion because it doesn't maintain logical consistency with the rest of speculation when it comes to Spirits. That's the point of speculation and discourse specifically, for people to arrive at conclusions that are not definitive. I'm more than capable of recognizing that people see other things differently, but I'm also willing to admit that I don't put much value in "interpretations based upon feelings" for what I hope are fairly obvious reasons. Nor do I put much value towards conclusions that are derived from just technical possibility of existence. Some people enjoy that, but I don't personally. But for a different example, there are plenty of avenues to discuss something like why was Byleth chosen as the single first party in sea of third parties for the original Fighter's Pass, and there are certainly a wide variety of conclusions that one can reach there as well.

****, man, Geno is still one of my most wanted fighters. Under your presumption of seeing things to fit a personal narrative I should be arguing all kinds of other things, especially about Spirits, but I don't because I actively try to separate speculation and character support. One is more an intensely critical look into the nature of character choices because I just enjoy it a ton. The other is just talking about a character I love and their possibilities.

Also, making long posts isn't something I do to be right or try to force my opinion on other people. It's something to do because I enjoy it and it keeps me engaged with the Smash fandom in my own way.

I don't like it when people feel the need to throw out not-so subtle, passive-aggressive jabs at each other during a "debate", so yes, I will try to shut that down before other users join in and the thread gets out of control. My post was meant to de-escalate the tension between a few users and remind everyone to keep an open mind rather than playing a game of "Who can be more condescending?" I guess you somehow misinterpreted that as me trying to stop people from having civil debates or speculating in a thread made for speculation.

As for my response to the largest portion of your post, I don't know what to say. Lately, I've been purposely avoiding responding to posts involving Spirits, and if my assumptions are correct, you're referring to something that happened several days ago. I apologize if I did or said anything that upset you, as I don't want to come across as overconfident in my theories. However, this isn't a one-way street. There are plenty of users here, some intentionally and others unintentionally, who will make sarcastic and cocky comments that insinuate that a person is naive or stupid for believing certain characters aren't deconfirmed. If you thought I was being aggressive, then it was probably me responding to someone who I didn't feel respected my opinions like they should have.

Personally, I don't think there's enough evidence to say Spirits deconfirm. You can disagree and claim that there is in fact plenty of evidence, but that's not how I interpret it. I feel like both of us are already well-aware of all the points brought up. There's nothing worthwhile for us to contribute to the topic until some new developments come through.

 

[DevaAshera]

I'm not.

Celica is great, but Chrom was much more requested and is an easy echo. Her being a Robin clone doesn't make much sense. Just make her a Marth clone like Warriors did

Celica uses Magic and Swords, she'd work fine as a Robin Echo. Just remove the tomes and make her magic have a Pichu mechanic to it to reference how Magic works in Fire Emblem Echoes. To me she'd make more sense as a Robin Echo than a Marth Echo due to magic being a big part of her character. She could obviously pull a Chrom and change a move here or there to give her more Sword moves..like give her Dancing Blade or Dolphin Slash.

 

[P.Kat]

Celica uses Magic and Swords, she'd work fine as a Robin Echo. Just remove the tomes and make her magic have a Pichu mechanic to it to reference how Magic works in Fire Emblem Echoes. To me she'd make more sense as a Robin Echo than a Marth Echo due to magic being a big part of her character. She could obviously pull a Chrom and change a move here or there to give her more Sword moves..like give her Dancing Blade or Dolphin Slash.

Would she be faster than Robin?

 

[DevaAshera]

Would she be faster than Robin?

Most likely. She'd probably be faster to compensate the Pichu effect to her magic..which would also give her more reason to use nosferatu to recover what she's 'pichu'd'..possibly weaker a bit as well to compensate being faster.

 

[Opossum]

The main reason Celica wouldn't work as a Robin echo is because her swordplay is completely different. There's also the fact that Warriors was literally the only time her swordplay was given precedence over her magic (due to how the game worked and her being a last minute addition), so she'd likely be using freehand magic casting for more than just her specials. She's more of Marth+Zelda as far as fighting style than anything like Robin.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't like it when people feel the need to throw out not-so subtle, passive-aggressive jabs at each other during a "debate", so yes, I will try to shut that down before other users join in and the thread gets out of control. My post was meant to de-escalate the tension between a few users and remind everyone to keep an open mind rather than playing a game of "Who can be more condescending?" I guess you somehow misinterpreted that as me trying to stop people from having civil debates or speculating in a thread made for speculation.

As for my response to the largest portion of your post, I don't know what to say. Lately, I've been purposely avoiding responding to posts involving Spirits, and if my assumptions are correct, you're referring to something that happened several days ago. I apologize if I did or said anything that upset you, as I don't want to come across as overconfident in my theories. However, this isn't a one-way street. There are plenty of users here, some intentionally and others unintentionally, who will make sarcastic and cocky comments that insinuate that a person is naive or stupid for believing certain characters aren't deconfirmed. If you thought I was being aggressive, then it was probably me responding to someone who I didn't feel respected my opinions like they should have.

Personally, I don't think there's enough evidence to say Spirits deconfirm. You can disagree and claim that there is in fact plenty of evidence, but that's not how I interpret it. I feel like both of us are already well-aware of all the points brought up. There's nothing worthwhile for us to contribute to the topic until some new developments come through.

You phrased your initial comment in such a way that seemed to challenge the entire concept of speculation. You said we were all just speculating, then proceeded to say there was no point to argue anything. My response was specifically point out that speculation is somewhat inherently determined by a need to argue and discuss different points of view. Your intentions may have been different than that, but that's how it read.

You seem apologetic on the second point, so forgive me when I say I really don't remember which incident you're talking about. I know I've had discussions with you regarding Spirits disconfirming, so maybe it's that, but I genuinely don't know what assumption you're making?

While I understand the frustration with aggression and cockiness, there's also clearly some people who don't want to defend their beliefs in this thread, and that can be very frustrating to others. Nobody is obligated to give their reasoning for a belief, nor are we necessarily people who should be outright criticizing them for not stating those reasons... but, faith based beliefs rarely lead to much in the way of engaging conversation because they're not based on substance to discuss and argue positions from. That, in of itself, seems to be defeating the purpose of a public forum and especially the Newcomer/DLC Speculation thread that exists to be the more deliberative body in comparison to support threads that are more based in just support and discussion of the characters. I'm more than willing to admit that I've been a little more aggressive towards those types after a little while, and that's on me for escalating... but it's also just such a consistent wall to come across in Smash speculation that I do think patience for it can run a little thin too.

One thing I want to address is that there is evidence. You're conflating non-definitive evidence for a lack of evidence. We're free to come to different conclusions in regards to Spirits based upon the evidence, but 9 unique DLC fighters is absolutely evidence or at the very least pertinent information when going into speculation as precedent (which is traditionally considered as evidence in law and thus why we tend to argue it does mean something, though I admit precedents can be broken, but it's some of the best evidence we have in the absence of additional information), it's how you choose to interpret that which will clearly differ from mine. We can disagree on the values of what is before us and arrive at different conclusions, that's fine, but I think trying to say there isn't evidence is being overly dismissive of a lot of related information. To admit that evidence exists is to not make a definitive conclusion one way or the other about it though.

 

[SNEKeater]

If we discount the 3H house leaders and spin-offs/Heroes, there are still 10 Fire Emblem main characters that are not represented in gameplay (discounting Lyn here because she's an AT). There are no reps from Sakurai's favorite game in the series (FE4).

Didn't know that.

Besides all the jokes, with that piece of info I wouldn't be surprised at all if we get Sigurd or Seliph if the rumoured FE4 remake ends happening lmao

 

[DevaAshera]

So, I know it was something being speculated on some pages ago, but I happened to think of a character that could use Bayonetta as a template and I randomly thought of who would fit for that last night.
2B from NieR Automata
Yeah, they both fight with different weapons, but so do Zero Suit Samus & Bayonetta who don't really fight similarly. 2B has a similar body shape to Bayonetta and would likely be another Combo Heavy character like her considering that she's another Platinum-Developed Stylish Femme Fatale.

The main reason Celica wouldn't work as a Robin echo is because her swordplay is completely different. There's also the fact that Warriors was literally the only time her swordplay was given precedence over her magic (due to how the game worked and her being a last minute addition), so she'd likely be using freehand magic casting for more than just her specials. She's more of Marth+Zelda as far as fighting style than anything like Robin.

I dunno, animation-wise she didn't really fight that differently in Echoes from Robin in Awakening. Like I said though, she could easily pull a Chrom or Ken and have some moves changed to play up her swordplay more..or be like Isabelle and just be based on Robin without being a straight Echo.

 

[Flik]

How to cheaply make Celica while making her kinda unique and acurate:

Marth's normals and with specials copied & modified from other character: Hero's neutral Special but smaller, Pit's Up Special (since Warriors gave her wings in one of her specials), Pikachu's thunder for Side Special but smaller and hits in front of her, and and Robin's Archfire but hits once and drains HP instead of being a fire attack

 

[TriggerX]

Just a reminder that Banjos fan demand was enough to get him in over Minecraft and Halo, two of some of the biggest gaming IPs period.

If Geno truly had anywhere near that type of demand, he would’ve got in over both of them, trust me.

IDK about this. I for one believe its still too early to tell if Banjo got in over those two.
May not be the case, and personally I doubt he did. Chances are we'll see another character from Microsoft, and most likely Master Chief. Its hard to believe that their biggest icon wasn't brought up and with the new Halo on the horizon it would make perfect sense why the character could have potentially been held off.
Minecraft is big, but its hard to say the series has a memorable face to it. Who knows maybe we get minecraft content with a Master Chief reveal, technically it was an indie game so its possible its represented by a mii costume down the road. Vergeben seemed dead set on something Minecraft related earlier on, with DLC still ongoing its hard to say if he was even completely wrong.

Overall Smash bros is Nintendo's AAA title, I doubt dlc content is being thought of as like spur of the moment type deal. Its more likely both packs were conceived around the same time, while the second packs contents being more fluid than the first.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Minecraft is big, but its hard to say the series has a memorable face to it. Who knows maybe we get minecraft content with a Master Chief reveal, technically it was an indie game so its possible its represented by a mii costume down the road. Vergeben seemed dead set on something Minecraft related earlier on, with DLC still ongoing its hard to say if he was even completely wrong.

Steve and Alex are very memorable, with Steve's face even on all the boxes, and they're treated like characters even if you can use any skin ingame. It's not indie anymore, that shouldn't be a reason to get a mii costume only, even though it's possible.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Didn't know that.

Besides all the jokes, with that piece of info I wouldn't be surprised at all if we get Sigurd or Seliph if the rumoured FE4 remake ends happening lmao

Last I heard the rumours are Tellius

So, I know it was something being speculated on some pages ago, but I happened to think of a character that could use Bayonetta as a template and I randomly thought of who would fit for that last night.
2B from NieR Automata
Yeah, they both fight with different weapons, but so do Zero Suit Samus & Bayonetta who don't really fight similarly. 2B has a similar body shape to Bayonetta and would likely be another Combo Heavy character like her considering that she's another Platinum-Developed Stylish Femme Fatale.


I dunno, animation-wise she didn't really fight that differently in Echoes from Robin in Awakening. Like I said though, she could easily pull a Chrom or Ken and have some moves changed to play up her swordplay more..or be like Isabelle and just be based on Robin without being a straight Echo.

Celica's supposed to be finesse in swordstyle so no she would NOT work as a Robin echo, Alm's the one with brutish swings

 

[I.D.]

Vergeben seemed dead set on something Minecraft related earlier on, with DLC still ongoing its hard to say if he was even completely wrong.

Vergeben didn't leak "Minecraft content" 2 years in advance

 

[nessdeltarune00]

IDK about this. I for one believe its still too early to tell if Banjo got in over those two.
May not be the case, and personally I doubt he did. Chances are we'll see another character from Microsoft, and most likely Master Chief. Its hard to believe that their biggest icon wasn't brought up and with the new Halo on the horizon it would make perfect sense why the character could have potentially been held off.
Minecraft is big, but its hard to say the series has a memorable face to it. Who knows maybe we get minecraft content with a Master Chief reveal, technically it was an indie game so its possible its represented by a mii costume down the road. Vergeben seemed dead set on something Minecraft related earlier on, with DLC still ongoing its hard to say if he was even completely wrong.

Overall Smash bros is Nintendo's AAA title, I doubt dlc content is being thought of as like spur of the moment type deal. Its more likely both packs were conceived around the same time, while the second packs contents being more fluid than the first.

Even if either one makes it in Vol 2, Banjo was still prioritized over them first.

 

[DevaAshera]

Celica's supposed to be finesse in swordstyle so no she would NOT work as a Robin echo, Alm's the one with brutish swings

And Ryu is mostly punches but Ken uses more kicks. They could easily alter her moves to show more finesse than Robin while still being an Echo Fighter.
Beyond that..Chrom is an Echo of Marth yet he fights fairly brutishly..I mean, heck, he breaks training dummies regularly..so its not like Echoes really go for accuracy that hard (just look at Dark Samus).
And still, like I said, they could also go the Isabelle route of being very Echo-ish without actually being an Echo.
For the record though, Celica didn't really come off as having that much 'finesse' to me in Fire Emblem Echoes..she still swung the sword kind of amateurly. She had finesse in Fire Emblem Warriors..but that was also where she was a Marth clone with a little Light Magic thrown in.
If Smash decided to add her and play up the mage side of her character over the sword side, she'd be fine as a Robin Echo with a few more fancy sword moves replacing Robin's less fancy ones and would still fit just fine in the role.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It still crazy to me that simply calling clones "echo" change everyone perspective of them.

Smash 4 have 3 clones: "no they took Ridley, Geno, Banjo slot, no more clones please!!"

Ultimate have 5 new echoes, 8 in total: "why don't we have more? It's such a cool concept!"

That's the power of branding, baby!

 

[DevaAshera]

It still crazy to me that simply calling clones "echo" change everyone perspective of them.

Smash 4 have 3 clones: "no they took Ridley, Geno, Banjo slot, no more clones please!!"

Ultimate have 5 new echoes, 8 in total: "why don't we have more? It's such a cool concept!"

Yeah, like DarthEnderX said, that's the power of branding.

It makes me so happy though since I've always been a proponent of clones..but heaven forbid you ever say that it was okay for clones to exist and okay for characters to be clones..Echoes made it much nicer for speculating on who could be added regardless of whether or not they were similar to other characters.

 

[Idon]

The main reason Celica wouldn't work as a Robin echo is because her swordplay is completely different. There's also the fact that Warriors was literally the only time her swordplay was given precedence over her magic (due to how the game worked and her being a last minute addition), so she'd likely be using freehand magic casting for more than just her specials. She's more of Marth+Zelda as far as fighting style than anything like Robin.

To be fair, we got Lucina acting all graceful with what is supposed to be a giant broadsword version of the falchion. None of the typical big hefty UNGA swings she's inherited from her dad.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/65570728

Threads like this and their replies are hilarious to look back on considering how third parties were received back then.

 

[TriggerX]

Steve and Alex are very memorable, with Steve's face even on all the boxes, and they're treated like characters even if you can use any skin ingame. It's not indie anymore, that shouldn't be a reason to get a mii costume only, even though it's possible.

Personally I only know who steve is from this forum and people mentioning him. I play with a lot of casual gamers, and Id say about like 10 out of every 50 know who Steve is by name. I guess that's like 20%, but my conclusion to all that is is that the general population is way more familiar with series and artstyle by name rather than the characters themselves.
Ive only played the game like 2-3 times so I may have just missed the name.

Vergeben didn't leak "Minecraft content" 2 years in advance

Lol that would be ridiculous, but I do think its somewhat possible. Although, I wouldn't necessarily give him credit for it. Who knows how he gets some of his information and it could be more coincidence if anything.
Once again, a lot of AAA titles have some kind of road map as to where they see the game after release. If Nintendo approached Microsoft at any point for Banjo, its not too far off base to believe that they discussed Halo and Minecraft as well, or at least set up some follow up discussions regarding the IPs.

Honestly I find it more ridiculous to think that Nintendo would draw up a contract for Banjo, then go out their way to contact Microsoft again after like 6-12 months.

Even if either one makes it in Vol 2, Banjo was still prioritized over them first.

There would be too many factors to determine if Nintendo "prioritized" them first. A big part of marketing is timing so if any character was held off on purpose it would likely be due for promtion of some kind.
Even if Nintendo did prioritize Banjo over Master Chief, it could have been for something as simple as diversifying the roster with a more animal like character versus having all human like characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The main reason Celica wouldn't work as a Robin echo is because her swordplay is completely different. There's also the fact that Warriors was literally the only time her swordplay was given precedence over her magic (due to how the game worked and her being a last minute addition), so she'd likely be using freehand magic casting for more than just her specials. She's more of Marth+Zelda as far as fighting style than anything like Robin.

She would definitely need more animation changes. This and she usually wields a longer sword I think.

EDIT: I bet they could pull attacks from various Fire Emblem characters since they all have the same body type.

To be fair, we got Lucina acting all graceful with what is supposed to be a giant broadsword version of the falchion. None of the typical big hefty UNGA swings she's inherited from her dad.

It does kinda bother me; Fire Emblem: Awakening put a lot of emphasis on how similar Lucina fights in regards to her father but in Super Smash Bros. they fight nothing alike. *sigh* I suppose it goes into the pile of lore nitpicks with Gaur Plain not taking place on Gaur Plain, and the Mega Arm being incorrectly referred to as the Hard Knuckle.

 

[Deleted member]

Good morning.

I see that there hasn't been as much discussion lately. Oh well, gotta wait for the next direct on the next week. And then next week, and then next week....

 

[TheCJBrine]

Personally I only know who steve is from this forum and people mentioning him. I play with a lot of casual gamers, and Id say about like 10 out of every 50 know who Steve is by name. I guess that's like 20%, but my conclusion to all that is is that the general population is way more familiar with series and artstyle by name rather than the characters themselves.
Ive only played the game like 2-3 times so I may have just missed the name.

Java Edition doesn't really mention him, but Bedrock Edition, which has become the main version, has his and Alex's skins labeled with their names. Their instagram uses them a lot as well, talking about what they're doing in pixel art, and they use them in other stuff sometimes as well, and in a lot of merchandise/promotional stuff. Many people online know who they are. Besides, people would still recognize them and the creeper as Minecraft's mascots at least.

 

[3BitSaurus]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/65570728

Threads like this and their replies are hilarious to look back on considering how third parties were received back then.

I think for the most part, the third party negative reactions on these responses seems fixated on Sora. Which makes sense, as characters that are very popular in the core fanbase will also draw a lot of irrational hate. See Banjo & Kazooie's character trailer being simultaneously the most liked and the second most disliked among the english trailers on Youtube.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Personally I only know who steve is from this forum and people mentioning him. I play with a lot of casual gamers, and Id say about like 10 out of every 50 know who Steve is by name. I guess that's like 20%, but my conclusion to all that is is that the general population is way more familiar with series and artstyle by name rather than the characters themselves.
Ive only played the game like 2-3 times so I may have just missed the name.

That's not to say they aren't recognizable though. If you see them and go "hey it's those Minecraft peeps" then they count as recognizable.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/65570728

Threads like this and their replies are hilarious to look back on considering how third parties were received back then.

Did people with that principle give it up, or do they just not post much anymore?

New Smash characters have eroded former pillars of the game's identity, such as a focus on Nintendo and a general lack of references to sex and violence. Now the people who never cared about those things or just adopt whatever Smash gives them as their new standard **** on anyone who advocates for those principles.

 

[Nintenboi]

I think it would be awesome to see someone like Crash or Rayman is smash
I even have an idea fore Rayman's final smash.
He would jump to a side of the stage and then his fist would get super big (you can probably predict what will happen next) Yeah, he'll smash his fist down and anyone below 100% will take mass damage and will get stuck in the ground.

 

[Slime Master]

I've seen people talk about echoes with significant changes a lot of times so I'll just throw this out there: I think Ken's echo status is pretty much honorary; if not for the fact that he's the original fighting game clone he would be considered a unique character. I don't really have any evidence to support this other than the fact that, IMO, he's more different from Ryu than Pichu is from Pikachu, but that's kind of debatable so... just food for thought I guess.

 

[Koopaul]

Yeah, like DarthEnderX said, that's the power of branding.

It makes me so happy though since I've always been a proponent of clones..but heaven forbid you ever say that it was okay for clones to exist and okay for characters to be clones..Echoes made it much nicer for speculating on who could be added regardless of whether or not they were similar to other characters.

Ultimate actually made me a bit disappointed in clones. Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter (all really cool characters) have almost nothing distinct about their moveset.

Historically, clones always had something to set them apart from whom they were cloned from. Like Lucina and her sword being different from Marth. It was enough to make them feel a little unique. But those characters mentioned above barely have anything. It's kind of sad.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I've seen people talk about echoes with significant changes a lot of times so I'll just throw this out there: I think Ken's echo status is pretty much honorary; if not for the fact that he's the original fighting game clone he would be considered a unique character. I don't really have any evidence to support this other than the fact that, IMO, he's more different from Ryu than Pichu is from Pikachu, but that's kind of debatable so... just food for thought I guess.

It would make sense, but I still believe Ken, Chrom, and to a lesser extent, Lucina are the gold standard for Echo Fighters.

Also I cannot look away from that slime. It's...mesmerizing. And it's cheeks look like little Kirby arms.

 

[Garteam]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/65570728

Threads like this and their replies are hilarious to look back on considering how third parties were received back then.

To be fair, third parties were starting to become a contentious issue after 4 were added back to back, so I have no idea how people would've reacted if 5 were added in base Smash for Wii U/3DS lol.

 

[Slime Master]

It would make sense, but I still believe Ken, Chrom, and to a lesser extent, Lucina are the gold standard for Echo Fighters.

Also I cannot look away from that slime. It's...mesmerizing. And it's cheeks look like little Kirby arms.

Agreed, I've thought for a while now that more games should offer low-effort alt characters with a slight playstyle shift so if you mostly enjoy a character but want to focus a little on one aspect more than another you can (though I believe this describes Lucina and Chrom more than it does Ken). In terms of actual expectations though, I think Ken is the exception more than the rule.

 

[PSIGuy]

Ken still has identical animations in a lot of places, doesn't he? I see Echoes as characters who start out developmentwise as a palette/model swaps and have additional content added from that base.

Although since it's largely a marketing term it's not worth being too literal with definitions either; all the Echoes in game seem to have wildly differing reasons for existing. Lucina and Dark Pit were originally model swaps and then had varying amounts of differences applied based on convenience. Richter and Ken must've been agreed in negotiations when deciding what to carry forward/add for third parties. And Dark Samus/Chrom were originally support characters so they already had models (and in Chrom's case, apparently uses the exact same model as before). And their differences vary from "effects on one attack" to "flat stt change across the board, several attacks have new animations, more input moves".

 

[Nintenboi]

I think Alph should be separated from Olimar and become an Echo Fighter.
Just makes more sense than having him be a character with an announcer clip and everything but just cast him aside as a costume.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Ken still has identical animations in a lot of places, doesn't he?

Yes he does. Mr. Cheating Echo still has plenty of Ryu animations plus the same weight, air speed etc. despite walking/running faster.

so they already had models

That didn't matter for Dark Samus and Isabelle, their Ultimate models were made from scratch.