Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Deleted member]

I mean...every way you look at it...

He looks totally normal in game. It's just that this is the one artwork from FE Echoes that goes for a weird camera angle.

 

[Herocin]

The wound is from the sages' attempt to execute Ganondorf, not from Link.



I swear, whenever I see that artwork I think that he has some very weird tiny feet.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Deleted member]

He looks totally normal in game. It's just that this is the one artwork from FE Echoes that goes for a weird camera angle.

I'm more of a fan of his other appearance though. Angle ruined it for me.

 

[Gamma Ray]

He looks totally normal in game.

As normal as he can look anyway, he's an odd fellow regardless.

 

[Deleted member]

As normal as he can look anyway, he's an odd fellow regardless.

Okay yeah, you can tell he's the bad guy on design alone.

 

[Deleted member]

Today's a Sunday for you guys, while I drift to sleep.

Stay sharp, everyone.

P.S. if you think something got leaked that seems liek something I should know, don't forget to page me.

 

[Calamitas]

he's an odd fellow regardless.

But he steams a good ham.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Yeah, but not 10 good ones.

I like all the Pokemon we have in Smash right now...

I kinda disagree. I man, Shovel Knight is popular..in the West..not as much in Japan (I expect that Undertale would be the Indie Darling series to get a character in the game, it was loved worldwide). I kinda think Shantae is more popular than Shovel Knight is in Japan and, honestly, I'd rather see if Shovel Knight has longevity before he appears in Smash and isn't just a One Hit Wonder since, well, he's only had a single game made thus far.

This is such a weird way to try and defend Shantae when she's only got like 3 years on Shovel Knight and specifically Shovel Knight has multiple releases of different games within the Shovel Knight IP that has maintained as much consistency, if not more experimentation than the Shantae games have over the course of the past 5 years. There are multiple Shovel Knight games and Shovel Knight isn't exactly fading from the public conscious. He's more than a one-hit wonder, and he basically has the same longevity as Shantae (Yes, she technically dates back to 1997... then had a release in 2002 that absolutely bombed and she wasn't heard from again until 2010, she's only shown consistent longevity in the past decade, 8 years of nothing with barely anything to account for the first 5 before that shouldn't really be counted towards her record of longevity).

 

[DarthEnderX]

This is such a weird way to try and defend Shantae when she's only got like 3 years on Shovel Knight

Uh...12 years.

 

[Plank08]

You do realize female Mr. Mimes exist, right?

Thanks I hate it

What if Pac-Man is supposed to be a last name like Hartman or Chapman?

So then what’s Pacmans first name? God this is so confusing

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Uh...12 years.

No, Shantae came out on the Game Boy Color in 2002 and bombed basically out immediately with no future. Has she technically existed longer than Shovel Knight? Of course. But she didn't actually become a relevant indie gaming icon until Risky's Revenge actually made a splash alongside a return on the 3DS Virtual Console. Shantae has only been an "indie gaming icon" in the past decade. Before that, she was just a failed Game Boy Color character. Sitting dormant for 8 years after an initial release completely failed to make even the slightest dent in the gaming conscious doesn't really count towards any consistent legacy that people should point to, especially when it comes to trying to assert some sort of superiority over Shovel Knight in the process of making such a claim.

 

[Plank08]

Any Pokemon would offer more to the roster than Crash. Heck, Incineroar is already an animal-like character that can spin.

People don’t want Crash for moveset potential, they want him because he’s CRASH ****ING BANDICOOT that should be enough to warrant a spot in smash

 

[KatKit]

Shantae's older games should definitely be counted towards her longevity because that's part of her appeal. She not only has a loyal fanbase that's been around for a while, but it's consistently grown over time.

The first Shantae was a late-life Game Boy Color game that came out after the release of the Game Boy Advance and before 'Indies' as we know them nowadays were popular. Publishers didn't consider her marketable because she's not a guy and suggested making her one. It was doomed from the start. The second game was well received and actually more of a commercial success. The third game was one of the top sellers on the Nintendo Eshop. The 4th game had a Kickstarter goal of $400k and almost doubled that. She's got another one on the way, and if the trend continues, it'll be even bigger than the previous entries. People want her in Smash because she'd fit right in and because it started on a Nintendo platform and has been on them ever since (it helps that her games are all pretty solid). Her story is an underdog tale and she came back from the brink of failure and turned it around. That's pretty amazing for an Indie title. To disregard her older games is nonsensical. Especially since she's been with Nintendo from the beginning.

 

[Droodle]

No, Shantae came out on the Game Boy Color in 2002 and bombed basically out immediately with no future. Has she technically existed longer than Shovel Knight? Of course. But she didn't actually become a relevant indie gaming icon until Risky's Revenge actually made a splash alongside a return on the 3DS Virtual Console. Shantae has only been an "indie gaming icon" in the past decade. Before that, she was just a failed Game Boy Color character. Sitting dormant for 8 years after an initial release completely failed to make even the slightest dent in the gaming conscious doesn't really count towards any consistent legacy that people should point to, especially when it comes to trying to assert some sort of superiority over Shovel Knight in the process of making such a claim.

That seems so arbitrary to me, sure maybe her first games didn't do so well but she still existed as a character long before risky's revenge. It's like saying Banjo hasn't existed after Nuts and Bolts, because that game failed.

Besides, if they were going for a indie rep with your criteria; wouldn't they go for someone like Quote, Super Meat Boy, or Isaac over Shovel Knight? Cave Story was seen as a breakout hit in the indie scene back in 2004. Same with Isaac's and Meat boy's games.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Just because a game failed doesn’t make it nonexistent for a character’s history.

 

[osby]

I'm still trying to understand why people are acting like a character's age is a merit by itself. Sure, Sakurai greatly prefers older character but coming out before Wii doesn't magically make games better.

Not all oldies are goldies.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just because a game failed doesn’t make it nonexistent for a character’s history.

If it did then we'd have to get rid of Ike, Ice Climbers and Ness at the very least

 

[Deleted member]

I'm still trying to understand why people are acting like a character's age is a merit by itself. Sure, Sakurai greatly prefers older character but coming out before Wii doesn't magically make games better.

Not all oldies are goldies.

Shantae's appeal is that she was revived successfully as an indie series after presumably being dead, making her iconic to the indie scene. I don't necessarily agree that it puts her above Reimu or Quote, mainly cause the spirit could be damning, but it's cool.

If it did then we'd have to get rid of Ike, Ice Climbers and Ness at the very least

Or Brawl Sonic.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

That seems so arbitrary to me, sure maybe her first games didn't do so well but she still existed as a character long before risky's revenge. It's like saying Banjo hasn't existed after Nuts and Bolts, because that game failed.

Besides, if they were going for a indie rep with your criteria; wouldn't they go for someone like Quote, Super Meat Boy, or Isaac over Shovel Knight? Cave Story was seen as a breakout hit in the indie scene back in 2004. Same with Isaac's and Meat boy's games.

I mean practically speaking? Banjo & Kazooie hasn't existed since 2000's Banjo-Tooie. People forget the existence of the GBA games all the damn time, even die hard Banjo fans, and most would like to forget that Nuts and Bolts even exists. His entire character legacy is the N64 generation and that's what got him into Smash as well as being such a consistent part of Smash speculation to begin with. I have no problem saying Banjo largely doesn't exist beyond those N64 games because that's really what people care about and know him from. And now Smash, but it's not like people sold him on the idea of this character with a 20 year gaming history, they sold him as "an icon of the N64 era that influenced other platformers." Legacy is more than just the time you've existed, it's specifically more when you're in the spotlight and existing as a memorable entity. The original Shantae didn't just "do so well," it bombed and barely had a cartridge run to the point where copies cost hundreds of dollars these days.

I'm not saying pick an indie rep that is the "oldest" or whatever, you're attacking a straw man there because that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying Shantae doesn't really exist as an Indie icon until the 2010s and that is where she has earned her status as such. I have nothing against Shantae as a pick for an indie rep, but I've seen her failed history used to pull some sort of seniority rank over newer indie characters that have made a huge splash on the scene in this same decade alongside Shantae pushed down to prop her up. And I find it especially egregious when people resort to the "Shovel Knight only has one game" comments that are just blatantly false and completely disregard how games can be handled outside of "single boxed releases" these days, and specifically how much spotlight Shovel Knight has managed to retain in the years following its initial release thoroughly fully fledged expansions that have been downright sold as individual titles at different points in time.

We can have whatever indie rep, I actually have come back around more to Shantae as a kickass women in gaming that would be a great inclusion after being more apathetic to her. But I don't like that people pretend she's has some sort of longer seniority that's at relevant to the indie status she's known for these days. It's a cool part of her story as a character, sure, but I don't think it counts much for the legacy Wayforward has spent the past decade cultivating in the indie scene. She has existed for longer, but she's only been an indie icon in the past 10 years.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Any Pokemon would offer more to the roster than Crash. Heck, Incineroar is already an animal-like character that can spin.

People want characters in a crossover game for the character more then how they play. Crash has more value to people then most other characters in general just for the nostalgia alone.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Or Brawl Sonic.

Ehhh, 1 specific game in the franchise doesn't really compare to an entire franchise or every game featuring the character, Sonic had plenty of history and merit before 06

 

[Deleted member]

Ehhh, 1 specific game in the franchise doesn't really compare to an entire franchise or every game featuring the character, Sonic had plenty of history and merit before 06

I mean, true. It's just an example where failure doesn't mean "**** off" in Smash Bros.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm still trying to understand why people are acting like a character's age is a merit by itself. Sure, Sakurai greatly prefers older character but coming out before Wii doesn't magically make games better.

Not all oldies are goldies.

It hangs off of the mentality that 3rd party characters need to all the hugest icons of the gaming scene like &. Personally I find this to be a little silly ( & don't fit this criteria and they're seen as great additions to the roster.) and if they decided to add Shantae or Shovel Knight, and the series falls into oblivion, they could always just remove the characters, or realize that it doesn't matter because everyone will love their inclusion regardless; Once a Smash Brother, always a Smash Brother.

TLDR: I don't think adding a new character to the Super Smash Bros. is a bad idea regardless of their accomplishments or staying power so long as people want the character in the moment of their addition.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It hangs off of the mentality that 3rd party characters need to all the hugest icons of the gaming scene like &. Personally I find this to be a little silly ( & don't fit this criteria and they're seen as great additions to the roster.) and if they decided to add Shantae or Shovel Knight, and the series falls into oblivion, they could always just remove the characters, or realize that it doesn't matter because everyone will love their inclusion regardless; Once a Smash Brother, always a Smash Brother.

TLDR: I don't think adding a new character to the Super Smash Bros. is a bad idea regardless of their accomplishments or staying power so long as people want the character in the moment of their addition.

Ok but Smash Brothers demands high prestige which is why old dead game good third party bad or some ****

 

[Schnee117]

If it did then we'd have to get rid of Ike, Ice Climbers and Ness at the very least

Fs in the chat for Captain Falcon

 

[Gamma Ray]

If it did then we'd have to get rid of Ike

While Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn weren't succesful commercially, Path of Radiance in particular remains my favourite Fire Emblem game to date. Though that's probably a minority opinion.

But I still need to finish Three Houses so who knows, my opinion may change.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

While Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn weren't succesful commercially, Path of Radiance in particular remains my favourite Fire Emblem game to date. Though that's probably a minority opinion.

But I still need to finish Three Houses so who knows, my opinion may change.

Oh I've heard amazing stuff about PoR, it's just that they sold like dog **** despite Ike being in the top 5 most popular FE characters twice. Where's my Tellius remake IntSys?

 

[BZL8]

Oh I've heard amazing stuff about PoR, it's just that they sold like dog **** despite Ike being in the top 5 most popular FE characters twice. Where's my Tellius remake IntSys?

You must have heard the news about a 3DS remake of a Fire Emblem game being cancelled.

 

[NintenZ]

I have never been more conflicted on when a character is releasing until Terry

On one hand there’s a lot of evidence pointing towards this week

On the other hand there’s some evidence to suggest it may be late November

I wish we could get an update of some sort soon instead of them pulling an Atlus and keeping quiet till the last minute

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You must have heard the news about a 3DS remake of a Fire Emblem game being cancelled.

Yeah but I think it'd be an Elibe remake. Then it turns out we get a promoted assist with Lyn and people scream about how awful she is

 

[Kotor]

You must have heard the news about a 3DS remake of a Fire Emblem game being cancelled.

The fact that Nintendo was still gonna support the 3ds into 2020 is utterly baffling. Maybe this remake will be repurposed as a Switch title. It'd at least have a better financial success. I suppose we have AlphaDream to thank for making Nintendo realize the 3ds in 2019 and beyond is no longer viable.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The fact that Nintendo was still gonna support the 3ds into 2020 is utterly baffling. Maybe this remake will be repurposed as a Switch title. It'd at least have a better financial success. I suppose we have AlphaDream to thank for making Nintendo realize the 3ds in 2019 and beyond is no longer viable.

Nintendo didn't consider the Switch as a sequel to the 3DS so they took that wakeup call pretty badly, 3ds games underperforming and people wanting Switch versions of 3DS games showed the truth. It also explains how Alphadream died as they were a rather small studio suddenly having to get new tech they know **** all about and bigger budgets they couldn't afford

 

[DarthEnderX]

No, Shantae came out on the Game Boy Color in 2002 and bombed basically out immediately with no future.

Clearly it DID have a future because it went on to become a successful franchise.

That's basically like pretending the Street Fighter series began at SF2 just because it was more popular.

Shantae started in 2002. Shovel Knight started in 2014. That's 12 years, not 3. Trying to discount the first game for made up reasons is just a sad attempt to bias the facts.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm still trying to understand why people are acting like a character's age is a merit by itself. Sure, Sakurai greatly prefers older character but coming out before Wii doesn't magically make games better.

Not all oldies are goldies.

Dunno why it is used as an argument for Shantae. In the case of Shantae, its a series of okayish games with a quite good one (Pirate's Curse).

If age is a merit, it surprises me how people are taking Reimu with disdain.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Dunno why it is used as an argument for Shantae. In the case of Shantae, its a series of okayish games with a quite good one (Pirate's Curse).

If age is a merit, it surprises me how people are taking Reimu with disdain.

Age is indeed important, it depends on how old I was when I played a game with the character, otherwise they're stinky baby poopoo minecraft bad or whatever

 

[Schnee117]

Dunno why it is used as an argument for Shantae. In the case of Shantae, its a series of okayish games with a quite good one (Pirate's Curse).

If age is a merit, it surprises me how people are taking Reimu with disdain.

"It only counts if it's in favour of someone I like"

 

[Plank08]

This is obviously never gonna happen (and looking at it, I feel like Smash speculation and wishing has driven me at least a little insane)... but here's a wishlist that I made on the assumption that we're getting 4 more Fighters Passes worth of characters (spoiler-ed so the post isn't too big)...

Spoiler: Too Big

Replace Ratchet with Sackboy and it’s perfect for me, I need to know how to make these formats

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Clearly it DID have a future because it went on to become a successful franchise.

That's basically like pretending the Street Fighter series began at SF2 just because it was more popular.

Shantae started in 2002. Shovel Knight started in 2014. That's 12 years, not 3. Trying to discount the first game for made up reasons is just a sad attempt to bias the facts.

You're still missing the point. Shantae becomes an Indie icon in the 2010s and her legacy is from the 2010s. Street Fighter's legacy, the genuine legacy that made it popular and closer to a household name, starts with Street Fighter 2, so that's the legacy that you look at (and this is clearly the case as Street Fighter has extremely minimal references to the first title in Smash and focuses on the II almost entirely).

I'm not pretending the original Shantae doesn't exist, I'm saying it doesn't really contribute much to Shantae's status as a recognizable face of Indie gaming enough to make her have some sort of "seniority" over other Indie characters that became more popular Indie characters during the exact same time frame. It's entirely attacking this bull**** notion that "seniority" of an Indie character makes them the more viable Indie rep, and also specifically refuting the notion that Shantae's nearly 20 year history should be looked at as anything more than just a fact of the character. If she wasn't even around for half of that time frame and did not become at all even marginally popular until 2010, then I don't think you should say she has some "20 year legacy." You don't get a legacy just by existing, you don't retain a status just by existing, you have to earn those things. Shantae earned those in the 2010s.

A character's legacy is infinitely more important than the date that character came into existence when it comes to Smash. Being old or older doesn't entitle characters to anything special.

 

[Lamperouge]

Dunno why it is used as an argument for Shantae. In the case of Shantae, its a series of okayish games with a quite good one (Pirate's Curse).

Half Genie Hero was pretty fun.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Dunno why it is used as an argument for Shantae. In the case of Shantae, its a series of okayish games with a quite good one (Pirate's Curse).

If age is a merit, it surprises me how people are taking Reimu with disdain.

Uhhhh because unga bunga anime bad? The one thing Smash fans hate more than zoomer characters is anime despite the game literally being made in Japan and most of the characters having some "anime" influence as a result.