Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Sour Supreme]

I think the problem with getting more women and racially diversifying the cast lies less with the idea of it, and more to do with the theoretical execution of it based on the current breakdown of the games industry.

I apologize in advance for the length. However, given the sensitive nature of this topic, I wanted to be as precise in both my speech and logic as possible when sharing my thoughts on the matter.

Spoiler

Counting Sheik as female, the current gender ratio for the roster is approximately 47 males to 12 females (not counting characters who have alternate gendered costumes like Robin or Pokemon Trainer, genderless characters like Dark Samus or R.O.B., characters who represent a species rather than a specific individual like the Pokemon or Piranha Plant, or the Ice Climbers and Banjo & Kazooie who have a member of each gender).

Likewise, nearly the entire cast is white, east asian, or ambiguously between those two, with the only characters not falling into those camps are Pokemon Trainer, Villager (who both have alts of multiple races), and Ganondorf (who is debatable, given how he's technically a fantasy race).

So, it can be seen that Smash is pretty homogenous in terms of race and gender. However, the question then becomes, what do you do about that? The obvious answer is put more females and more racially diverse people into the cast. That's a lot easier said than done, honestly.

Most of Nintendo's leading ladies are already in the game, such as Peach, Daisy, Samus, Lucina, and Isabelle. Off the top of my head, the only remaining female Nintendo characters I really think have much of a chance at this point are Ayumi Tachibana, Style Savvy Girl, and Edelgard. Likewise, there aren't that many third party franchises with female leads, so that's a pretty dead end as well. Out of all the non-Nintendo games I can think of, the only major female leads I can really think of Jill Valentine (unless you count Chris or Leon as the lead of Resident Evil), Lara Croft, Shantae, Nakoruru (unless you count Haohmaru as the lead of Samurai Showdown), and Kasumi (unless you count Ryu Hayabusa as the lead of Dead or Alive).

Games with non-white/asian protagonists are even harder to come by. The only one I can think of is CJ from Grand Theft Auto. Likewise, the only Nintendo character period I can think of that fits that description is Anthony Higgs from Metroid: Other M.

So, then the question becomes, do you give characters in these categories priority over other candidates who may be more popular or could translate themselves in a more interesting way? Ultimately, that's a subjective judgement based on personal values. However, I don't think its as easy as simply pressing the "add underrepresented groups to Smash button", given how the imbalance between these groups will still be relatively vast even if Sakurai were to go out of his way to add characters to solve this issue.

Likewise, I think it's the fact these groups don't have an abundance of candidates that makes the Smash community less supportive of them as opposed to a quota like "villains" or "side characters". I don't think the movement to get villains into Smash came about because people really liked the idea of playing as the bad guys, but instead came because a handful of villains were really popular and people wanted to play as those characters. That's why a lot of people stopped playing the "Smash needs more villains!" quota once Ridley and K. Rool joined the roster. There wasn't this great sentiment that Smash finally had enough bad guys, a lot of people just supported it as a vehicle for those two in particular and withdrew there support once they got what they wanted. Likewise, the side character quota didn't really come up until recently, when it was felt that characters like Waluigi and Bandana Waddle Dee had a realistic shot now that most franchises have their main cast in order. Put simply, I don't think much of the Smash fanbase will support the "female" and "racial diversity" quotas until they have some popular faces who fall under those labels.

TL;DR: There is a gender and racial imbalance in Smash Bros. However, the issue lies in the the lack of prominent females and non-white/asian people that Smash could really draw from. Likewise, most of the Smash Bros. community isn't super supportive of the idea given this lack of prominent candidates to draw from.

You should post this in the Female Newcomer discussion if you haven't. I touched on this idea, although it was brief. The thread could use the discourse.

 

[Deleted member]

You should post this in the Female Newcomer discussion if you haven't. I touched on this idea, although it was brief. The thread could use the discourse.

Yeah, it'll need it.

 

[Plank08]

Let's share our "Never-evers", characters you think have a slim to none chance at getting into Smash at this point but you'd still love to see against all odds.

I'll start with this Alola League Champ and professional good boy:

Sackboy for the love of god

 

[Sour Supreme]

Yeah, it'll need it.

Stow your fear depression!

Never forget that the fact people like you are voicing your opinion does mean something. You aren't the only one voicing your concerns about lacking female representation. And I would say even those who aren't in favor of deliberation on this matter can at least understand where you're coming from. (Right? Or are you sexist ******** lurking on the guest list?) I will personally boycott Super Smash Bros. Ultimate if we don't get any female fighters, that's how confident I am in the game receiving one (hopefully more).

pls Sakurai I love this game

 

[Plank08]

I’m so upset

I finally finished my Sackboy moveset and finished my Sackboy thread, but smash boards told me to restart cause I tried to add a video and it erased EVERYTHING, my moveset, the info, EVERYTHING.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I’m so upset

I finally finished my Sackboy moveset and finished my Sackboy thread, but smash boards told me to restart cause I tried to add a video and it erased EVERYTHING, my moveset, the info, EVERYTHING.

Homie they're called word documents! Seems you're passionate enough to start over though, aha.

 

[Plank08]

Homie they're called word documents! Seems you're passionate enough to start over though, aha.

You got that right! Lol

 

[ChronoBound]

Off the top of my head, the only remaining female Nintendo characters I really think have much of a chance at this point are Ayumi Tachibana, Style Savvy Girl, and Edelgard.
[/spoiler]

Dixie not found.

Toadette not found.

Those two are very major actors in the mainline portions to their respective franchises, yet people continue to ignore them.

People say they want more female characters, yet they ignore characters that are very major actors in two of Nintendo's biggest franchises.

Toadette is a mainline Mario character now. A character that started off merely as just to give Toad a partner, but now has become the fourth playable character in Mario titles (see Super Mario Maker 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe).

Dixie Kong was headlining a blockbuster game before Lara Croft and Jill Valentine existed (she outright was listed before Diddy Kong in Japan's subtitle for DKC2, Super Donkey Kong 2: Dixie & Diddy), and she also got top billing for DKC3 (which was still one of the Top 10 best selling SNES titles, which is extremely impressive considering the game came out after the 64 had launched, and all eyes were on the next generation of consoles at the time).

Dixie Kong is a rare heroine that does not embrace sex appeal (or waifuism) for much of her appeal and popularity, yet has a lot of femininity about her. She embraces femininity while at the same time is subverts tropes behind females in gaming, while also managing to be appealing across demographics.

The biggest and shiniest jewel of them all is right there, yet many here are reaching for characters that most outside the Smash Bubble have never heard of (especially on the Nintendo side of things). Again, I don't think people here don't know about the existence of Dixie and Toadette and their importance to their respective of their franchises, so I might have to err about the people clamoring for more females being disingenuous about the reason of wanting them merely being for the sake of bringing more females to Smash.

 

[Ninjaed]

...based on?

リース 聖剣伝説 (Riesz Seiken Densetsu) => 305,000 results on google
ランディ 聖剣伝説 (Randi Seiken Densetsu) => 124,000 results on google

You can also find tons of fanart of Riesz, much more so than Randi. The same research on pixiv gives you less than 300 results for Randi, more than 2.6k for Riesz. You've also had many more people cosplay as Riesz (and not just japanese). She's basically become the poster girl for the series at this point (her tvtropes page even states she's a Breakout Character).
Now obviously, she's not as widely popular in the west... and yet even then, you have more results for Riesz than for Randi on google or deviantart. Even though her game had never released overseas until recently, unlike Randi's which released in Europe as well.

I hope that answered your question? I tried looking for japanese popularity polls but there were none at the time.

-
Edit: oh and she appeared as a playable guest character in the fighting game Million Arthur: Arcana Blood, alongside Iori Yagami. Here's a link to the Riesz combo video that made me consider her for Smash - https://youtu.be/NttBQN1LcR8

 

[SvartWolf]

Who here don't want Female!Terry and think that female hero is much more fitting?

I'm all for female characters and alts, but female terry is terryble (heh) and only work as a joke character for that specific fighting game.

The Atelier games feature alchemy, where you gather ingredients then craft items through recipes. The crafting itself is a mini-game. Otherwise, they're light-hearted J-RPGs and from those I've played, you don't have to save the universe for once.

Sometimes the simpler things are the most refreshing.

I think that my imposible never evers gotta be Ridley Silverlake (Hey I not only like metroid but actually also like radiata stories... ok DX) half of the castlevania playable cast ( I still think that Alucard have a very tiny chance though and i'm pretty happy with what i got), Pious Augustus (Eternal Darkness), one of teh alchemist from the dusk saga of Atelier games. (while, i wouldnt say that atelier have 0 chances... they are low and even if one makes it is likely to be from teh first saga, from arland, or the newest one) Lillith from darkstalkers, Silvally from pokemon (and to a certain extent Lycanrock) Firebrand from Gargoyle quest/Demon's Crest, Plague Knight from Shovel knight, Freya from FF nine, and sadly, Lyn from fire emblem.

I would put Sol, Amateratsu and Morrigan aensland here, but i don't think that their chances are as bad as some people paint them. but i'm certainly not holding my breath for them.

Still, i'm really happy with the roster...and Eternal darknes got a spirit which, is WAAAY more of what i was expecting.... heck, even hotel dusk got an spirit!

 

[DarthEnderX]

リース 聖剣伝説 (Riesz Seiken Densetsu) => 305,000 results on google
ランディ 聖剣伝説 (Randi Seiken Densetsu) => 124,000 results on google

You realize of course that the protagonist of Secret of Mana wasn't given the official name of Randi until years later, and most people don't even know that's his name and, as a result, wouldn't google him as such, right?

That'd be like if you tried to compare the popularity of Secret of Mana and Trials of Mana by googling "Secret of Mana" and "Trials of Mana" even though SD3 only got the name Trials earlier this year.

 

[Garteam]

Dixie not found.

Toadette not found.

Those two are very major actors in the mainline portions to their respective franchises, yet people continue to ignore them.

People say they want more female characters, yet they ignore characters that are very major actors in two of Nintendo's biggest franchises, yet ignore them.

Toadette is a mainline Mario character now. A character that started off merely as just to give Toad a partner, but now has become the fourth playable character in Mario titles (see Super Mario Maker 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe).

Dixie Kong was headlining a blockbuster game before Lara Croft and Jill Valentine existed (she outright was listed before Diddy Kong in Japan's subtitle for DKC2, Super Donkey Kong 2: Dixie & Diddy), and she also got top billing for DKC3 (which was still one of the Top 10 best selling SNES titles, which is extremely impressive considering the game came out after the 64 had launched, and all eyes were on the next generation of consoles at the time).

Dixie Kong is a rare heroine that does not embrace sex appeal (or waifuism) for much of her appeal and popularity, yet has a lot of femininity about her. She embraces femininity while at the same time is subverts tropes behind females in gaming, while also managing to be appealing across demographics.

The biggest and shiniest jewel of them all is right there, yet many here are reaching for characters that most outside the Smash Bubble have never heard of (especially on the Nintendo side of things). Again, I don't think people here don't know about the existence of Dixie and Toadette and their importance to their respective of their franchises, so I might have to err about the people clamoring for more females being disingenuous about the reason of wanting them merely being for the sake of bringing more females to Smash.

That's fair, I kinda forgot about those two. That's my bad.

Dixie is definitely up there in terms of who the next Nintendo character from a major Nintendo franchise could be. She's important to DK and has a lot of unique tricks up her sleave for a moveset.

However, I'm a little iffy on Toadette. Sakurai seems to have this strange distaste towards the idea of adding Toad in general to the roster. Despite being the most important Mario character after Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and (arguably) Yoshi, Toad is seems to be permanently conjoined to Peach in Smash Bros, despite his increased involvement in her Ultimate moveset. Then again, Toadette also has much of an identity than Toad, but that didn't seem to help Captain Toad. Regardless, I'd love to be proven wrong about Toadette's inclusion, especially if she split a moveset with Captain Toad.

 

[Ninjaed]

You realize of course that the protagonist of Secret of Mana wasn't given the official name of Randi until years later, and most people don't even know that's his name and, as a result, wouldn't google him as such, right?

You realise of course that her name used to be translated as Lise and her game was known as Seiken Densetsu 3 until years later, when they were officialised as Riesz and Trials of Mana less than a year ago, yet she still has more google results than Randi?

Also 聖剣伝説2 (= Secret of Mana, in Japanese) has less than 1.3k results on pixiv. The entire Secret of Mana game has less than half the number of fanarts of Riesz alone. Is that still not enough for you?

 

[DarthEnderX]

You realise of course that her name used to be translated as Lise and her game was known as Seiken Densetsu 3 until years later, when they were officialised as Riesz and Trials of Mana less than a year ago, yet she still has more google results than Randi?

Also 聖剣伝説2 (= Secret of Mana, in Japanese) has less than 1.3k results on pixiv. The entire Secret of Mana game has less than half the number of fanarts of Riesz alone. Is that still not enough for you?

No, because it feels like you're doing a bunch of weird selective linguistic searches to get the result you want.

 

[GoodGrief741]

リース 聖剣伝説 (Riesz Seiken Densetsu) => 305,000 results on google
ランディ 聖剣伝説 (Randi Seiken Densetsu) => 124,000 results on google

You can also find tons of fanart of Riesz, much more so than Randi. The same research on pixiv gives you less than 300 results for Randi, more than 2.6k for Riesz. You've also had many more people cosplay as Riesz (and not just japanese). She's basically become the poster girl for the series at this point (her tvtropes page even states she's a Breakout Character).
Now obviously, she's not as widely popular in the west... and yet even then, you have more results for Riesz than for Randi on google or deviantart. Even though her game had never released overseas until recently, unlike Randi's which released in Europe as well.

I hope that answered your question? I tried looking for japanese popularity polls but there were none at the time.

-
Edit: oh and she appeared as a playable guest character in the fighting game Million Arthur: Arcana Blood, alongside Iori Yagami. Here's a link to the Riesz combo video that made me consider her for Smash - https://youtu.be/NttBQN1LcR8

Oh please you can't seriously think that Google Trends and fanart is solid evidence for a character's popularity.

Let's start with the fact that one game got released worldwide and one wasn't, and let's go from there.

 

[Ninjaed]

No, because it feels like you're doing a bunch of weird selective linguistic searches to get the result you want.

What? How?
Okay, you know what? I proved my point. If you wish to disprove it, then it's up to you to do this. Not to me. Go ahead, the burden of proof is now on you.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What? How?

Well, for one thing, you're specifically googling the Japanese text, which is going to massively skew the results to ONLY the Japanese audience. It pretty much completely cuts out ALL NA searches for Secret of Mana. So you've basically rigged it so that one of the most popular JRPGs on the SNES in NA doesn't count any searches from it's NA audience.

Then there's still the fact that Randi wasn't called Randi until the iOS version, effectively leaving out any searches for the character from before 2010.

I proved my point. If you wish to disprove it, then it's up to you to do this. Not to me. Go ahead, the burden of proof is now on you.

Well, if poorly defined google searches count, then:

"聖剣伝説2" + "Secret of Mana" = 22.4m
"聖剣伝説3" + "Trials of Mana" = 21.4m

 

[Plank08]

Eh, to be honest, my female character wishes have been dashed since day one.

What's the point of me being here anymore if it'll only add to depression?

It's hopeless. I'm calling it right now, you guys are having Doomabusa, yay. Meanwhile I'm sulking about why gaming history is written by the men and leaving out the female demographic.

I'm just feeling sour.

Don’t lose hope, DLCs not even close to over yet, you’ll get your female character.(Bayonetta was the last after all)

 

[NoBS]

I think you guys who call for girl characters and girl characters or boycott are completely irrational and rather sexist.

First of all it’s not sakurais or smashes fault that most of the biggest games and protagonists over the years have been male, or most fake mascots are male. It’s not as though sakurai has intentionally kept out female characters. The main ones are in, and there are a couple girl characters that have a chance overall at this point, but if they didn’t get in it would be completely fine and rational as there are still more arguably bigger male characters.

If sakurai wanted terry who is the main mascot of snk, then great, if he wants to get hayabusa next who is the mascot of koei tecmo then great. He shouldn’t be caving to another character simply because he doesn’t want another imaginary penis. I find your arguments ridiculous.

Lastly the fact that most protagonist from gaming history are male is not a bad thing. Most gamers are male, and most game creators are male, if I want to make a male protagonist because it’s my vision as a male then so be it. Stop acting like the industry is just some sexist place

 

[Deleted member]

Don’t lose hope, DLCs not even close to over yet, you’ll get your female character.(Bayonetta was the last after all)

Thanks for the encouragement.

I think you guys who call for girl characters and girl characters or boycott are completely irrational and rather sexist.

First of all it’s not sakurais or smashes fault that most of the biggest games and protagonists over the years have been male, or most fake mascots are male. It’s not as though sakurai has intentionally kept out female characters. The main ones are in, and there are a couple girl characters that have a chance overall at this point, but if they didn’t get in it would be completely fine and rational as there are still more arguably bigger male characters.

If sakurai wanted terry who is the main mascot of snk, then great, if he wants to get hayabusa next who is the mascot of koei tecmo then great. He shouldn’t be caving to another character simply because he doesn’t want another imaginary penis. I find your arguments ridiculous.

Lastly the fact that most protagonist from gaming history are male is not a bad thing. Most gamers are male, and most game creators are male, if I want to make a male protagonist because it’s my vision as a male then so be it. Stop acting like the industry is just some sexist place

Yeah, but even then, female demographics NEED TO BE ADDRESSED FOR ****NESS SAKE.

Apologies for the all caps. I'm just sour.

 

[Ninjaed]

Oh please you can't seriously think that Google Trends and fanart is solid evidence for a character's popularity.

Let's start with the fact that one game got released worldwide and one wasn't, and let's go from there.

http://www.theicecave.org/damage_co...s-localization-fate-legendarily-elusive-mana/

Former Squaresoft employee Brian Fehdrau, who worked as lead programmer for Secret of Evermore, said in an interview with Nintendo Life the Japanese version of Seiken Densetsu 3 contained glitches that would have required serious work to fix before it could pass Nintendo of America’s certification process. Retro Gamer magazine also discussed how text-heavy it is, and said it would have been too costly for Squaresoft to localize this large a game so late in the console’s life cycle.

Here you go. And yes, when the difference in fanarts is that massive, that's clearly indicative of something.

Well, for one thing, you're specifically googling the Japanese text, which is going to massively skew the results to ONLY the Japanese audience. It pretty much completely cuts out ALL NA searches for Secret of Mana. So you've basically rigged it so that one of the most popular JRPGs on the SNES doesn't count any of it's NA audience.

First of all, Secret of Mana was also one of the most popular JRPGs on the SNES.
Secondly, didn't I mention that searching for RANDI and RIESZ, the localised names, also gave similar results?
randi "secret of mana" => 39,900 results
riesz "trials of mana" => 6,750 results

Oh, fewer results... but what about:
riesz "seiken densetsu" => 120,000 results

Now if you search for: Randi Mana, you'll get about 5m results... but they're skewed by a certain language with pages like this one:
https://tirto.id/cara-james-randi-bongkar-tipu-tipu-cenayang-di-tv-ecym
that contain text like this:

Randi kemudian tersadar betapa mengerikannya kondisi di mana orang-orang bisa mudah dieksploitasi oleh mereka yang mengaku sebagai

(it's talking about James Randi)

Well, if poorly defined google searches count, then:

"聖剣伝説2" + "Secret of Mana" = 22.4m
"聖剣伝説3" + "Trials of Mana" = 21.4m

And... what exactly did that prove? I'm not talking about the games but the characters here. Besides, the google results are one thing, the pixiv results are another.

 

[Nquoid]

This may be read as an inflammatory comment, but it's meant only to better inform myself: for some very niche franchises that are really only popular in Japan beside the "weeb"/"otaku" audience, do people really think that they have a chance? Or that people would be wrong in reacting negatively towards such obscure franchises?

I won't name any specific franchises, but I'm not referring to something like Dragon Quest or King of Fighters that did find success outside of Japan, at least in its time. I mean stuff that did release outside Japan but never really found anything more than its cult audience.

I feel seen

 

[TheAJJohnson]

I think the problem with getting more women and racially diversifying the cast lies less with the idea of it, and more to do with the theoretical execution of it based on the current breakdown of the games industry.

I apologize in advance for the length. However, given the sensitive nature of this topic, I wanted to be as precise in both my speech and logic as possible when sharing my thoughts on the matter.

Spoiler

Counting Sheik as female, the current gender ratio for the roster is approximately 47 males to 12 females (not counting characters who have alternate gendered costumes like Robin or Pokemon Trainer, genderless characters like Dark Samus or R.O.B., characters who represent a species rather than a specific individual like the Pokemon or Piranha Plant, or the Ice Climbers and Banjo & Kazooie who have a member of each gender).

Likewise, nearly the entire cast is white, east asian, or ambiguously between those two, with the only characters not falling into those camps are Pokemon Trainer, Villager (who both have alts of multiple races), and Ganondorf (who is debatable, given how he's technically a fantasy race).

So, it can be seen that Smash is pretty homogenous in terms of race and gender. However, the question then becomes, what do you do about that? The obvious answer is put more females and more racially diverse people into the cast. That's a lot easier said than done, honestly.

Most of Nintendo's leading ladies are already in the game, such as Peach, Daisy, Samus, Lucina, and Isabelle. Off the top of my head, the only remaining female Nintendo characters I really think have much of a chance at this point are Ayumi Tachibana, Style Savvy Girl, and Edelgard. Likewise, there aren't that many third party franchises with female leads, so that's a pretty dead end as well. Out of all the non-Nintendo games I can think of, the only major female leads I can really think of Jill Valentine (unless you count Chris or Leon as the lead of Resident Evil), Lara Croft, Shantae, Nakoruru (unless you count Haohmaru as the lead of Samurai Showdown), and Kasumi (unless you count Ryu Hayabusa as the lead of Dead or Alive).

Games with non-white/asian protagonists are even harder to come by. The only one I can think of is CJ from Grand Theft Auto. Likewise, the only Nintendo character period I can think of that fits that description is Anthony Higgs from Metroid: Other M.

So, then the question becomes, do you give characters in these categories priority over other candidates who may be more popular or could translate themselves in a more interesting way? Ultimately, that's a subjective judgement based on personal values. However, I don't think its as easy as simply pressing the "add underrepresented groups to Smash button", given how the imbalance between these groups will still be relatively vast even if Sakurai were to go out of his way to add characters to solve this issue.

Likewise, I think it's the fact these groups don't have an abundance of candidates that makes the Smash community less supportive of them as opposed to a quota like "villains" or "side characters". I don't think the movement to get villains into Smash came about because people really liked the idea of playing as the bad guys, but instead came because a handful of villains were really popular and people wanted to play as those characters. That's why a lot of people stopped playing the "Smash needs more villains!" quota once Ridley and K. Rool joined the roster. There wasn't this great sentiment that Smash finally had enough bad guys, a lot of people just supported it as a vehicle for those two in particular and withdrew there support once they got what they wanted. Likewise, the side character quota didn't really come up until recently, when it was felt that characters like Waluigi and Bandana Waddle Dee had a realistic shot now that most franchises have their main cast in order. Put simply, I don't think much of the Smash fanbase will support the "female" and "racial diversity" quotas until they have some popular faces who fall under those labels.

TL;DR: There is a gender and racial imbalance in Smash Bros. However, the issue lies in the the lack of prominent females and non-white/asian people that Smash could really draw from. Likewise, most of the Smash Bros. community isn't super supportive of the idea given this lack of prominent candidates to draw from.

I appreciate your concise and professional language with a topic like this.
But here's my one question about this: why is this even a topic of discussion? In the most respectful way possible, is this something that people actually care about? And if so, why?

 

[GoodGrief741]

http://www.theicecave.org/damage_co...s-localization-fate-legendarily-elusive-mana/


Here you go. And yes, when the difference in fanarts is that massive, that's clearly indicative of something.


First of all, Secret of Mana was also one of the most popular JRPGs on the SNES.
Secondly, didn't I mention that searching for RANDI and RIESZ, the localised names, also gave similar results?
randi "secret of mana" => 39,900 results
riesz "trials of mana" => 6,750 results

Oh, fewer results... but what about:
riesz "seiken densetsu" => 120,000 results

Now if you search for: Randi Mana, you'll get about 5m results... but they're skewed by a certain language with pages like this one:
https://tirto.id/cara-james-randi-bongkar-tipu-tipu-cenayang-di-tv-ecym
that contain text like this:

(it's talking about James Randi)


And... what exactly did that prove? I'm not talking about the games but the characters here.

I am aware of why the game was not localized, and it's really a tragedy that the West didn't get to play it until recently (in an official form) but that doesn't change the fact that Secret of Mana is a worldwide classic while Trials of Mana was more of a cult thing for the really hardcore fans. It's absurd to pretend that a character from the latter can be more famous or popular than one from the former. It's a simple matter of more exposure, plus the fact that even the fan translation of Trials wasn't as widespread as, say, the ones for Final Fantasy V or Mother 3.

It really seems that you're just trying to find random stats that fit around the narrative that serves you but you're really eschewing common sense here.

As for the difference in fanart, the fraction of any given audience that draws fanart is so small it's barely worth giving consideration.

 

[Nquoid]

I appreciate your concise and professional language with a topic like this.
But here's my one question about this: why is this even a topic of discussion? In the most respectful way possible, is this something that people actually care about? And if so, why?

Yes, and because diversity is a good thing that helps grow a fanbase beyond what can ultimately be a limiting niche.

PoC, women, LGBTQ+ (and everyone else) like to see themselves represented in the media they consume (cue, "lol all those green dinosaur fans") and adding in more representation might help Smash appeal to people it might not normally.

 

[Deleted member]

This may be read as an inflammatory comment, but it's meant only to better inform myself: for some very niche franchises that are really only popular in Japan beside the "weeb"/"otaku" audience, do people really think that they have a chance? Or that people would be wrong in reacting negatively towards such obscure franchises?

I won't name any specific franchises, but I'm not referring to something like Dragon Quest or King of Fighters that did find success outside of Japan, at least in its time. I mean stuff that did release outside Japan but never really found anything more than its cult audience.

I'm probably guessing you are referring to series like Tohou or Sakura Wars and If I'm being honest with you, there's always chance of them happening sooner or later.

I have said this before, but given that there's less and less characters that are popular WW there's an increased likehood that we get characters that are unknown or niche in some parts of the world.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Secondly, didn't I mention that searching for RANDI and RIESZ, the localised names, also gave similar results?
randi "secret of mana" => 39,900 results
riesz "trials of mana" => 6,750 results

How is that "similar results"? That shows Randi being the far more popular search. That's the exact OPPOSITE of the results of your previous search.

This entire process is just laughably flawed and subjective.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, and because diversity is a good thing that helps grow a fanbase beyond what can ultimately be a limiting niche.

PoC, women, LGBTQ+ (and everyone else) like to see themselves represented in the media they consume (cue, "lol all those green dinosaur fans") and adding in more representation might help Smash appeal to people it might not normally.

Going back to the statement I made from my seminar:

People want to be able to see characters who are like them in the media they consume. They should.

Looks like someone's listening to my lessons.

 

[Ninjaed]

I am aware of why the game was not localized, and it's really a tragedy that the West didn't get to play it until recently (in an official form) but that doesn't change the fact that Secret of Mana is a worldwide classic while Trials of Mana was more of a cult thing for the really hardcore fans. It's absurd to pretend that a character from the latter can be more famous or popular than one from the former. It's a simple matter of more exposure, plus the fact that even the fan translation of Trials wasn't as widespread as, say, the ones for Final Fantasy V or Mother 3.

It really seems that you're just trying to find random stats that fit around the narrative that serves you but you're really eschewing common sense here.

Fine, then I can go that way too. The Secret of Mana remake had a smaller budget than the one for Trials of Mana. Therefore, SE had higher expectations of Trials of Mana than Secret of Mana. It actually proves nothing but hey, I can act like it does.

Also, all you've been doing is try to discredit what I've given you instead of addressing it. I don't know what you want me to give you. If you can find a popularity poll, I'd welcome it. Same if you can find sales number for merchandise of both these characters.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

All this discussion about women I got nothing to add so here's some good music that should have come with Ryu and Ken but oh well

@Lesley Black Velvet I'd say please if these discussions are too much its best to take a break play a game or listen to music

 

[Deleted member]

I swear if the next fighter gets leaked, is male, and the fighter after that, and the fighter after that...

Why is the female demographic in gaming such a cruel place...at that point I'll just boycott Smash in its entirety. Maybe this isn't my game.

NoOtherPersona you don't ****ing get it. Smash influenced a lot of stuff about me. It even reflected my choice of college course. Now for me to abandon all of this ****..

 

[NoOtherPersona]

I swear if the next fighter gets leaked, is male, and the fighter after that, and the fighter after that...

Why is the female demographic in gaming such a cruel place...at that point I'll just boycott Smash in its entirety. Maybe this isn't my game.

NoOtherPersona you don't ****ing get it. Smash influenced a lot of stuff about me. It even reflected my choice of college course. Now for me to abandon all of this ****..

I'm sorry I don't know you personally so yeah I don't get it but also I never said abandon I said take a break

 

[Nquoid]

I'm probably guessing you are referring to series like Tohou or Sakura Wars and If I'm being honest with you, there's always chance of them happening sooner or later.

I have said this before, but given that there's less and less characters that are popular WW there's an increased likehood that we get characters that are unknown or niche in some parts of the world.

Thing is, because of the way that the game industry historically broke down into three segments, Japan, America and Europe with 2/3 console manufacturers this century hailing from Japan; it does feel like a lot more weight is given to secondary or tertiary Japanese game franchises whilst being skeptical of large western franchises (or then there's me who's skeptical of both!)

I'd also say that where the pass sits now theres enough characters to pull from before we get to Touhou or Sakura Wars. Resident Evil, Tekken, Tales, Devil May Cry, Contra, Guilty Gear, No More Heroes, Dark Souls, Kingdom Hearts, Crono, Nier. All popular games that have been translated world wide and I know they're basic ***** choices, but I really can't imagine Sakurai dips into franchises that haven't been heavily localised outside of Japan before getting through a chunk of those.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sorry I don't know you personally so yeah I don't get it but also I never said abandon I said take a break

Well, at least you gav eme that advice.

I don't want to hear gloomy music. I'm not in the mood to watch my favorite anime, and I threw all my Mobile Legends matches.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think you might have larger issues than dissatisfaction with a game roster and might want to speak to someone more qualified...

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm probably guessing you are referring to series like Tohou or Sakura Wars and If I'm being honest with you, there's always chance of them happening sooner or later.

I have said this before, but given that there's less and less characters that are popular WW there's an increased likehood that we get characters that are unknown or niche in some parts of the world.

I don't think Touhou fits, but yeah, Sakura Wars fits more what I'm thinking. I honestly doubt that Smash will ever get to a point where a series that's such a non-entity outside one character will get in Smash, but I wonder what fans of it or another series like that seriously think/expect/hope for.

By the by, I disagree with the notion of being less characters that are popular worldwide. Also, given how more homogeneous taste-wise the countries outside of Japan tend to be, if anything I'd expect more characters that are wildly popular outside of Japan rather than only in it.

Fine, then I can go that way too. The Secret of Mana remake had a smaller budget than the one for Trials of Mana. Therefore, SE had higher expectations of Trials of Mana than Secret of Mana. It actually proves nothing but hey, I can act like it does.

Also, all you've been doing is try to discredit what I've given you instead of addressing it. I don't know what you want me to give you. If you can find a popularity poll, I'd welcome it. Same if you can find sales number for merchandise of both these characters.

First off, I'd like a source on the budget situation. Second, that might be due to many factors, for example: they thought Secret of Mana remake would sell on the name alone, while they figured Trials of Mana needed good reviews to succeed; or, the poor critical reception of the former remake led them to up the resources on the latter remake.

I discredited the arguments that you posted because they don't lead to the conclusion and ignore the glaring and essential fact that the large majority of the planet was exposed to one set of characters and not the other.

Like, what character is more famous and popular? Saber from Fate or Iron Man? According to you, it might be Saber, who has ten times more fanart on pixiv than Iron Man.

I think you might have larger issues than dissatisfaction with a game roster and might want to speak to someone more qualified...

This, but maybe in a kinder tone. @Lesley Black Velvet I don't necessarily agree with you, but maybe getting that invested isn't too healthy? Like, I get boycotting and such, make corporations hear you, but you constantly sound way too depressed by the notion of not getting a female character and it's somewhat concerning.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I’m-a be honest here.

While it’s still not enough, when it comes down to representation, I don’t get why character alts. aren’t counted.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Stow your fear depression!

Doesn't that make it worse?

 

[Ninjaed]

Then tell me what you're expecting to test their popularity against each other? It's not like I don't know that it's not airtight evidence, you know. I'm just at a loss at what to provide given the lack of resources I have.

 

[Nquoid]

Like, what character is more famous and popular? Saber from Fate or Iron Man? According to you, it might be Saber, who has ten times more fanart on pixiv than Iron Man.

I think this nails down to the core of passionate fanbase vs large fanbase. Probably a higher proportion of people who have played Fate games come away and do fan art, but there are so many purely casual Iron Man fans that its impossible to compare the two. Who don't go online and espouse a love for the character.

Iron Man is definitely the bigger character, but if you ran in the right circles you'd never see Iron Man brought up and your entire exposure would be to Saber.

We all just exist as bubbles within bubbles interacting with other bubbles.