Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Zinith]

Ghirahim didn't leave an impact?

Even people who hate Skyward Sword call him a highlight

 

[Jassassino]

We can argue about one off characters in Zelda all we want. Ultimately, when we're talking about specific Zelda characters, I think our positions will come down to whether or not we think those specific characters had a substantial enough impact to justify their inclusion.

For example, I think Skull Kid and Midna are unforgettable and deserve to be playable, but Ghirahim or Vaati are fine where they are.

One thing that cannot be debated is that while the Zelda series has many one-off characters, the series also has many mainstay RACES that have yet to be represented in any significant sense. By focusing only on Hylians, Smash is missing out on much of the wonderful diversity that makes Hyrule and other Zelda locales feel so alive.

I'm talking Gorons. I'm talking Zora's. I'm talking Deku Scrubs, Ritos, Gerudos (even though Gabondorf technically is Gerudo lol), Kokiri, Koroks, Fairies, heck even those Mole men from Skyward Sword.

At a certain point, proper Zelda representation would include a playable character from one of the non-human races that make Zelda so distinct and so fun to explore in the first place.

Who cares if it's a one off character? We need a Darunia, or a Ruto, or a Kass. This is the untapped potential of the Zelda series, and the main reason the current playable fighter representation feels so lacking, even while Link and Zelda get consistent makeovers. Makeovers mean next to nothing when so much is still missing.

I'd love Urbosa or Darunia in Smash. I honestly think it's gutting we haven't got a LOZ character on the same level as either in the sense that they're important single title characters.

But I'd also love to see Majora's Link with a mask function similar to Pokémon Trainer. A lot of missed potential there IMO.

 

[KatKit]

Ghirahim is kinda in since Ganondorf finally fights with a sword.

 

[IAmGiles]

This go around Skull Kid got the same thing Ghirahim got last time, the last man standing effect, except this time it was propped up by a fake leaker.

Ghirahim didn't leave an impact?

Even people who hate Skyward Sword call him a highlight

Oh he left an impact, he was a highlight for me as well. But he's a big fish in a small pond, Skyward Sword being the worst console Zelda game and all. (I still really enjoy the game, but it's got little to nothing going for it compared to the rest)

Ghirahim is kinda in since Ganondorf finally fights with a sword.

You are technically correct. The best kind of correct. (Top notch stuff lol)

 

[Zinith]

Oh he left an impact, he was a highlight for me as well. But he's a big fish in a small pond, Skyward Sword being the worst console Zelda game and all. (I still really enjoy the game, but it's got little to nothing going for it compared to the rest)

Skyward Sword is my 3rd favorite 3D Zelda and 5th overall. Breath of the Wild is below it for me.

I like that declarative statement you have. "Worst console Zelda game"

 

[Nquoid]

We can argue about one off characters in Zelda all we want. Ultimately, when we're talking about specific Zelda characters, I think our positions will come down to whether or not we think those specific characters had a substantial enough impact to justify their inclusion.

For example, I think Skull Kid and Midna are unforgettable and deserve to be playable, but Ghirahim or Vaati are fine where they are.

One thing that cannot be debated is that while the Zelda series has many one-off characters, the series also has many mainstay RACES that have yet to be represented in any significant sense. By focusing only on Hylians, Smash is missing out on much of the wonderful diversity that makes Hyrule and other Zelda locales feel so alive.

I'm talking Gorons. I'm talking Zora's. I'm talking Deku Scrubs, Ritos, Gerudos (even though Gabondorf technically is Gerudo lol), Kokiri, Koroks, Fairies, heck even those Mole men from Skyward Sword.

At a certain point, proper Zelda representation would include a playable character from one of the non-human races that make Zelda so distinct and so fun to explore in the first place.

Who cares if it's a one off character? We need a Darunia, or a Ruto, or a Kass. This is the untapped potential of the Zelda series, and the main reason the current playable fighter representation feels so lacking, even while Link and Zelda get consistent makeovers. Makeovers mean next to nothing when so much is still missing.

In an ideal world, Young Link would have a transformation mechanic ala Pokemon Trainer for the three MM forms and Fierce Deity as the final smash. But that's immediately three more unique movesets which would push Zelda into "really?" territory for a lot of people.

Ghirahim didn't leave an impact?

Even people who hate Skyward Sword call him a highlight

Urgh no, Ghirahim is probably my least favourite part of that game and I hated that he was a recurring boss fight. As good as some of the dungeon design in SS is, I was never happy if he showed up at the end of a dungeon

 

[MasterOfKnees]

The Zelda flavor of the week argument is just another soft fan rule imo. Is there something to it? In the sense that it makes it more difficult for the character to make it in, yes. Does it mean that those type of characters are never going to happen? Hell no. Some day that argument is going to join 'too big' and 'irrelevant', it's a stumbling block, but one that likely will be overcome in the future.

I think Skull Kid would be as well received as any Nintendo newcomer could be (except Waluigi), we saw just a glimpse of that when the whole crazy chair theory gained traction, and it wasn't just Smashboards either, the wider internet community really ate it up. He's not a character who's ever had consistent support due to being perceived as unlikely, but he's an extremely popular Nintendo character in the wider scope, he's obviously not happening in Ultimate, but I'm positive that some day he'll get in. Other than him, new characters will stand a great chance, we might have seen a BotW newcomer had it not split the flavor of the week between four characters, the timing was pretty good, there just wasn't a clear option, but maybe there will be around the time the next Smash happens.

 

[Calamitas]

Zelda has grown a lot in terms of lore since Ocarina of Time. Even Twilight Princess dealt with how the eternal conflict between the three affects other realms and kingdoms (in this case the Twili). It wouldn't nearly be as well remembered without the Twilight elements

Let's not kid ourselves, Nintendo doesn't care about the "lore" of the Zelda series. The timeline is nothing but an oversight, and gameplay is the most important thing. Any attempt to make out any kind of consistent lore that spans multiple games is just inherently futile. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the series, but story and lore has never been its strong point.

Ghirahim is kinda in since Ganondorf finally fights with a sword.

Wrong sword.

 

[Zinith]

Let's not kid ourselves, Nintendo doesn't care about the "lore" of the Zelda series. The timeline is nothing but an oversight, and gameplay is the most important thing. Any attempt to make out any kind of consistent lore that spans multiple games is just inherently futile. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the series, but story and lore has never been its strong point.



Wrong sword.

I was talking about the "it's only about the three main characters" argument, which even if you grant that Zelda isn't about story or lore is silly...

 

[StormC]

If Geno makes the jump there's technically nothing holding back Zelda one-offs.

Geno has consistent support though, feels like Zelda one-offs fluctuate depending on both recent games and fake leaks.

 

[KatKit]

Wrong sword.

Maybe not. We know that the Master Sword has incomplete forms. Ganondorf's sword could very well be an unevolved form of the Sword of Demise.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If Geno makes the jump there's technically nothing holding back Zelda one-offs.

Geno has consistent support though, feels like Zelda one-offs fluctuate depending on both recent games and fake leaks.

I'd say Midna and Tetra have been pretty consistent but both quite low level overall.
Then again, Tetra is another Zelda.

 

[Calamitas]

Maybe not. We know that the Master Sword has incomplete forms. Ganondorf's sword could very well be an unevolved form of the Sword of Demise.

If that were the case, we'd get Ghirahim popping out of the sword every few minutes to remind Ganondorf that his batteries are low on energy.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

Let's say hypothetically there was a Fighter's Pass featuring characters who are currently in Ultimate as assist trophies. With the only "rule" being one character per series, who would you want/think are going to be the 5 fighters?

For me I'd want:
-Midna (gee no one saw this coming)
-Bomberman
-Krystal
-Spring Man
-Shovel Knight

Who I think Nintendo would go with:
-Waluigi
-Spring Man
-Isaac
-Skull Kid
-Shadow

Thwomp
Shovel Knight
Bomberman
Waluigi
Thwomp
Alucard
Thwomp

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If that were the case, we'd get Ghirahim popping out of the sword every few minutes to remind Ganondorf that his batteries are low on energy.

Nah Ghirahim would instead pop out to say "Stan Loona sksksksksksk"

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Girahim makes me uncomfortable. That's probably they point but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I would be totally fine if I didn't have to see his tongue thing up close again.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The idea that Zelda is properly represented without so many of its incredibly iconic and popular characters just because they're one-offs is moronic to me.

 

[Calamitas]

Nah Ghirahim would instead pop out to say "Stan Loona sksksksksksk"

The idea that Zelda is properly represented without so many of its incredibly iconic and popular characters just because they're one-offs is moronic to me.

I've honestly thought for years now that if Zelda got the same kinda treatment that the Mario series did, we would've gotten Wolf Link & Midna back in Brawl. Maybe Smash 4.

 

[Aetheri]

The phrase at least is the problem here.

They're still not really all that important to the series as a whole. Only Link, Zelda, and Ganon(dorf) have that. The only Zelda characters who really have a claim to Smash in my opinion are Impa, who's not all that relevant and has too many iterations to choose one, and Tetra, who falls into the same trap Dixie does where she's relevant and popular, but not all that relevant and popular. Ganon could be another cool character, but he's not nearly popular enough.

I get Zelda has a cool bunch of characters, but most of them are better saved for games celebrating the series' legacy, like Hyrule Warriors.


As a fan of Zelda myself I think the series is pretty solid in terms of representation. There's more to it than just characters. There's stages, assist trophies, items, music, Spirits/Trophies, etc., and Zelda has a lot of content between all of those. I'm personally of the belief that things like stages and assist trophies matter almost equally to Sakurai. While we may only care about the characters, he and the team care about all of it.

The argument of "flavor of the week Zelda" vs. "flavor of the week Fire Emblem" is that Fire Emblem is a game based around flavor of the week characters. It's like Final Fantasy that way. The characters currently in Smash are the mainstays of the series at this point, making appearances in most other games. Zelda is focused around Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. I do believe more variation could be created among them (give Young Link a unique mask moveset, add Ganon as another character, give Toon Link Wind Waker unique items), but characters like Skull Kid don't really stack up (Skull Kid was actually a bandwagon pick that people jumped on after loz18 talked about him though).

I think the Zelda fans in the core fanbase banded together to advocate for a character with solid importance to the series we could see something, but banding behind assist trophy tier characters like Skull Kid and Ghirahim clearly hasn't gotten them anywhere.

Y'know this argument that "Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the core of the Zelda series therefore that's all Smash needs" falls flat when we got frikkin Pirahna Plant on the roster. Y'know an 'assist trophy tier' character. Sure Pirahna Plant isn't exactly a one-off character but he's literally just a Pirahna Plant.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I find the "flavor of the week" argument a bit weird, since we already have characters like and , whose best moments are mostly confined to a single game and then some guest appearances, plus the retro one-game characters like .

At the end of the day, both Zelda and Fire Emblem suffer from weird decisions when it comes to how they're represented in Smash - along with a few other series, like Metroid and DK.

I think my biggest gripe with Corrin wasn't even "too much FE" or "promotional character", but rather that I went from "HOLY ****, HE TURNS INTO A DRAGON!? That's actually pretty cool!" to "Oh, it's just some body parts for some attacks and their down B counter, then it's back to being a swordsman".

Robin was one of the few first party newcomers in Smash 4 that managed to impress me. If we get a Three Houses character, I just hope Sakurai and team actually use some of the new mechanics from that game in their moveset. I think there's actually a lot of stuff that FE and its tactical gameplay could offer to Smash that just... went unexplored so far. Having three stages (two of which are generic series references rather than a particular title) and no boss battle certainly don't help things.

Maybe the team lacked the tools to do so in Melee and Brawl. I understand why Marth, Roy and Ike were made this way. Then again, it took us five whole games to get a character with Critical Hits and MP Gauge in Smash, so maybe it's some sort of problem with implementing RPG/Tactical mechanics.

 

[Flyboy]

With all that said, I do believe there is clear merit to the argument of the Smash fandom totally ignoring the benefit of stages, costumes, assist trophies, and boss battles as a form of series representation.

 

[osby]

*checks the last pages*

Now I remember why I didn't miss the first party speculation.

 

[Curious Villager]

With all that said, I do believe there is clear merit to the argument of the Smash fandom totally ignoring the benefit of stages, costumes, assist trophies, and boss battles as a form of series representation.

Remember when people used to count all the Kid Icarus trophies, music, items and Smash run enemies etc when justifying their complaints of the series overrepresentation back in the Smash 4 day's?

I mean I'd love to see a new Zelda character as well but come on now...

 

[Dinoman96]

Y'know this argument that "Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the core of the Zelda series therefore that's all Smash needs" falls flat when we got frikkin Pirahna Plant on the roster. Y'know an 'assist trophy tier' character. Sure Pirahna Plant isn't exactly a one-off character but he's literally just a Pirahna Plant.

Piranha Plant was explictly chosen as the game's "surprise character", though. Essentially Ultimate's equivalent to G&W, R.O.B and Duck Hunt.

The joke is that it's just some random Mario mook that's playable in a game filled with main characters. It's more of a special exception.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda representation is sort of weird because we already have Young Link and Toon Link representing N64 and Wind Waker. Current Link reps BOTW, current Zelda is kind of a SNES and LBW rep. It's already sorta generational.

I'm just glad we got the best designs for Zelda and Ganondorf. Thise were my biggest gripes with Zelda (series) in Smash, they looked ugly since Brawl and weren't really fun to play.

 

[Opossum]

I'd love a playable Goron. Either Darunia or Daruk is fine by me.

Is that really an axe?... Looks more like a scepter. Not gonna lie though, she looks decent. We don't have any axe user yet.

They had to get a bit creative since Aymr, like all Relic Weapons, is actually

Spoiler: Three Houses

made out of dragon bones.

The angle also obscures it a bit, so here's a better look at it.

Spoiler

 

[Flyboy]

Yeah, for the record, Urbosa or Darunia would be really awesome as a playable character. I'd also love Midna or Tetra.

 

[Aetheri]

Piranha Plant was explictly chosen as the game's "surprise character", though. Essentially Ultimate's equivalent to G&W, R.O.B and Duck Hunt.

The joke is that it's just some random Mario mook that's playable in a game filled with main characters. It's more of a special exception.

Sakurai said outright that he doesn't pick characters for their shock value because that novelty fades very quickly after their reveal. Which is true because that's a terrible reason to put a character in the game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I said this in the Ultimate thread but Fire Emblem honestly just kept getting lucky ever since Marth was added much to the chagrin of Zelda fanatics

 

[Nquoid]

I read this the other day and actually found it quite interesting how much Nintendo were struggling to make a Zelda that clicked at home and in the West

Just another interesting wrinkle in what exactly the internal reaction to certain characters might have been at the time in regards to Smash.

 

[IAmGiles]

With all that said, I do believe there is clear merit to the argument of the Smash fandom totally ignoring the benefit of stages, costumes, assist trophies, and boss battles as a form of series representation.

I can only really speak for myself, but as I mostly play competitively, almost none of this stuff actually affects the gameplay.

Even when I'm playing with friends at home, individual stages, items, and assist trophies hardly seem to affect the way we play the game, whereas each playable character offers incredible variety in gameplay that keeps things interesting.

I do enjoy the boss battles, my only issue is that they're underutilized (especially Dracula).

So I definitely ignore the benefit for most of that representation, because for me there is actually little benefit and makes little difference on how I play the game.

It's purely a selfish perspective to want greater character representation for specific series, but so is saying something like "this series has enough representation". Clearly for me as a Zelda fan, the series does not have enough representation. It's all subjective imo

 

[SNEKeater]

About Fire Emblem representation. I'm a fan of the series but for now I wouldn't pick a character from FE for DLC. If it has to happen maybe I'd choose Edelgard, the thing is some people that played Three Houses didn't pick her house, and the same problem happens with Dimitri and Claude. The three are very cool and interesting characters, specially their timeskip versions (I love his grown up designs, 10/10), but not everyone has played all the routes that the game offers. I've only played Golden Deer and the 'secret' route but I will play the other two.
With this in mind the most probably scenario if Sakurai picks a Three Houses rep is Byleth. I like Byleth and even if he would bring cool things (whip sword, potential time mechanics, potential gambit/batallion abilities, and more), I'd honestly prefer any of the three main lords, so the solution that comes to my mind is:
1. Byleth as the Three Houses rep but it acts like Pokémon Trainer, where he's commanding one of the three lords (like Byleth does in his game), so that way we could have Edelgard, Claude and Dimitri as playable characters.
2. Byleth as the Three Houses rep but in most of his attacks he "summons" one of the main lords. For long range attacks Claude will appear and attack with his bow, for mid range attacks we would have Dimitri and his lance and for close range attacks, Edelgard and his axe.

Between the two options I guess the most possible one is the second one, which would be cool. It would suppose a lot of work for Sakurai, maybe too much for one DLC, but that way you would satisfy all Three Houses and Fire Emblem fans, and at the same time I'd arge even haters of Fire Emblem wouldn't be able to complain that much beyond the silly "not another anime character" argument.

Besides Three Houses characters, as a follower of Fire Emblem I've always thought the franchise is not very well represent in Smash and I'm not talking about the controversy.
I think a more proper selection of characters to represent Fire Emblem would be something like this:

- Marth. Mostly because he's the first protag of FE and the face of the franchise for most Smash players. Also represents classic Fire Emblem games. Fast and agile sword user.

- Lyn or Hector. Lyn is one of the most popular characters among FE fans, at least top 3. Even if he uses a sword she would play like an assassin. I'd imagine her like his assist trophy: few attacks, but really powerful hits, maybe with a crit system? She also can use a bow.
If not Lyn, Hector is another really popular character and he uses an axe, he would be very strong and slow. Besides moveset, the both would represent Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword (also known as Fire Emblem in the West), the first game to be localized outside of Japan, which is one of the most popular entries.

- Ike. He should stay in my opinion, maybe I'm a little biased but he's without discussion one of the most popular FE characters not only in Smash, also among Fire Emblem followers. He represents Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance which was the first 3D Fire Emblem game, and his sequel for the Wii, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. About his moveset even if he's faster in his games, I think it's okay to have him as a heavy sword user, that way you can cover different playstyles.

- Robin. I will clarify: if we talk about characters I'm more of a Chrom and Lucina guy than Robin, but he, like the other two, is one of the main characters of Fire Emblem: Awakening, a game that as we all know saved and resurrected the franchise. So even if some people didn't enjoy Awakening it deserves a special treatment. His playstyle focuses in magic as we know.
-- What about Lucina and Chrom? Well I don't have any problem with the two being in the roster, honestly. They're from Awakening and they're very popular characters among fans. But I guess some people sees them (plus Roy) as a waste of slots. Personally, I wouldn't care if Lucina and Chrom were Marth skins. Another option is another slot but for the two characters, like Olimar. Chrom and Lucina would share the same slot and each one would have 4 different skins, like Olimar and Alph. Lucina would be the default character for having joined Smash in first place.

- At this point, I think a 5th character is well deserved. Before the release of Three Houses I would have suggested Ephraim, from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones for the GBA. While Ephraim maybe isn't the most popular character of the franchise, he's a spear user and has a cool design. But with the release of Three Houses I would replace him with some of the options I mentioned at the beginning of my post, Byleth with Edelgard, Claude and Dimitri. The four characters would represent the basic weapons and also the weapon triangle of Fire Emblem: sword (Byleth), Edelgard (axe) and Dimitri (lance).

Maybe isn't a perfect list. I did it trying to represent different parts of Fire Emblem history with popular characters among the fanbase of Fire Emblem, plus having in mind different movesets and playstyles to avoid sword users (with whom I don't have a problem). Maybe a proper rep for the SNES games would be nice, but these games are the ones I didn't play yet, so I guess I'm sorry.

 

[osby]

With all that said, I do believe there is clear merit to the argument of the Smash fandom totally ignoring the benefit of stages, costumes, assist trophies, and boss battles as a form of series representation.

*actually playing the game*

*not just staring at the character selection screen*

Sorry sir, this forum is for Smash fans.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Impa deserves to be playable. Even if it's only as a Sheik echo. Tingle and Ghirahim deserve their ATs back. Ganondorf deserves a new, completely unique moveset.

This is all the content Zelda needs to have added to Smash.

I think Zelda is represented well (though they could differentiate the Links some more)

Definitely this. Each of the Links should be using different subweapons.

The idea that Zelda is properly represented without so many of its incredibly iconic and popular characters just because they're one-offs is moronic to me.

You think everything is moronic though, so it loses all meaning.

Y'know this argument that "Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the core of the Zelda series therefore that's all Smash needs" falls flat when we got frikkin Pirahna Plant on the roster.

Yeah, and PP was an AWFUL pick. Just because they made an awful pick doesn't mean it's okay to make more awful picks.

 

[Aetheri]

Impa deserves to be playable. Even if it's only as a Sheik echo. Tingle and Ghirahim deserve their ATs back. Ganondorf deserves a new, completely unique moveset.

This is all the content Zelda needs to have added to Smash.

Definitely this. Each of the Links should be using different subweapons.

You think everything is moronic though, so it loses all meaning.

Yeah, and PP was an AWFUL pick. Just because they made an awful pick doesn't mean it's okay to make more awful picks.

Whether you believe PP was an awful pick or not is on you. Point is Sakurai is capable of adding characters into the game that aren't just the main heroes/villains.

Once again if you believe they are 'awful' is due to your subjectivity.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Say that Tweet from yesterday was right? How would you guys be overall with this Season Pass if Hat Kid was DLC fighter 5?

At the same time though this feels like a character I could see Sakurai pulling off and nobody fans would had expected likeand Terry.

 

[Flyboy]

Say that Tweet from yesterday was right? How would you guys be overall with this Season Pass if Hat Kid was DLC fighter 5?

At the same time though this feels like a character I could see Sakurai pulling off and nobody fans would had expected likeand Terry.

Complicated.

A Hat In Time is...like...pretty good. Hat Kid is a Pretty Cool Character. But not really my pick for an Indy character and not really my favorite Indy game or anything. Cool but it's not like I'd be flipping my desk or anything.

 

[ProfPeanut]

Hat Kid, for all her charms, is just flat out not a good idea.

• Gears For Breakfast, compared to most other indie studios, is quite the underperformer. Their DLC takes a lot longer and costs more, and they cancelled the Wii U version of A Hat in Time that they initially promised back in their Kickstarter. In terms of getting things done, they're not very noteworthy.
  
  
• Hat Kid would be skipping over a ton of indies that've been around Nintendo longer. Shovel Knight and Sans arguably deserve the spot more, and the likes of Shantae and Hollow Knight have been far more loyal than Hat Kid has.
  
  
• Hat Kid would be skipping over a few important platforming candidates too. Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, Spyro - they somehow don't make the cut when Hat Kid does?
  
  
• In fact, every Western franchise between Banjo-Kazooie and A Hat in Time would throw a ruckus. No, I don't like the idea of that at all.

She could get away with a Mii Swordfighter costume, but that's all I'd give her at most.

 

[TheAJJohnson]

Honestly? There will never be a reveal that can live up to the hype of "EVERYONE IS HERE!" that wasn't only the biggest mic-drop reveal they could've possibly done but in my opinion it's the biggest moment in Smash history it can never be replicated or topped as that reveal was the most exciting thing Smash has ever done or at least in my opinion. That said here's what my tier list would look like:

S-Tier: EVERYONE IS HERE!, K. Rool reveal, Banjo reveal, Inkling/New Smash game announcement, Sonic reveal.

A-Tier: Cloud reveal, Mega Man reveal, Ridley reveal, Pac-Man reveal, Snake reveal/Brawl announcement.

B-Tier: Ryu reveal, Hero reveal, Terry reveal, Joker reveal, Sm4sh reveal, Bayo reveal.

C-Tier: Wii Fit trainer reveal, Isabelle reveal.

D-Tier: Kencineroar reveal, Plant reveal.

F-Tier: Corrin reveal.

This is probably the closest to what I would say.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Hat Kid would be skipping over a few important platforming candidates too. Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, Spyro - they somehow don't make the cut when Hat Kid does?

There's still the additional DLC assuming this would happen which I don't think it will anyways.

Also female rep (Besides Kazooie) in that pass. As Thanos would quote it.

"Perfectly balanced. As all things should be".