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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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osby

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So, about DLC echoes: Yeah, they would need much less development time, but remember that there's a reason clones are almost always added at the end of development. They get added when some part of the development team has free time before the release date.

With DLC having a smaller amount of people working on it, we don't know if they're going to have free time for echoes or if they'd want to prioritize them over other stuff. Also there's the fact that not every character is suitable for being an easy, 1-to-1 echo or has their owners okay with them being like that.

Not saying we won't get any echoes, but at this point Nintendo obviously more interested in unique newcomers. So, don't be surprised if none of the DLC characters are clones. Just because something is easy to do, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
 

Rie Sonomura

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So, about DLC echoes: Yeah, they would need much less development time, but remember that there's a reason clones are almost always added at the end of development. They get added when some part of the development team has free time before the release date.

With DLC having a smaller amount of people working on it, we don't know if they're going to have free time for echoes or if they'd want to prioritize them over other stuff. Also there's the fact that not every character is suitable for being an easy, 1-to-1 echo or has their owners okay with them being like that.

Not saying we won't get any echoes, but at this point Nintendo obviously more interested in unique newcomers. So, don't be surprised if none of the DLC characters are clones. Just because something is easy to do, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Would semi clones like Isabelle and Lucas be off the table though, or?
 

Flyboy

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Yeah, well, that's what Capcom gets for having the highest number of interesting characters and franchises after Nintendo.

Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
Nathan Spencer [Bionic Commando]
Phoenix Wright [Ace Attorney]
Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
Viewtiful Joe [Viewtiful Joe]
Amaterasu [Okami]
Mike Haggar [Final Fight]
Strider Hiryu [Strider]
Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
Firebrand [Gargoyle’s Quest]
Zero [Mega Man X]

ALL good and acceptable possibilities.

The last Capcom rep people would expect is Momotaro from Pirate Ship Higemaru!
We're popping the BIGGEST bottles when Ruby Heart returns and brings the MvC2 character select screen music with her!!

That's a great list, and it isn't even (outside of Zero) getting into the other potential great Mega Man reps that would be cool to have in like Roll, Tron Bonne, Geo/Omega-XIS, Bass.EXE...

People may say "you want too many Capcom characters!" but man, maybe Capcom should stop making so many awesome franchises then!
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
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So, about DLC echoes: Yeah, they would need much less development time, but remember that there's a reason clones are almost always added at the end of development. They get added when some part of the development team has free time before the release date.
I mean, you say that, but we got a bunch of Echoes in Ultimate, despite the fact that Piranha Plant, who was clearly intended to be base roster, wasn't even finished in time for release. So clearly SOMEBODY was working on Echoes when they should have been working on the core game.

People may say "you want too many Capcom characters!" but man, maybe Capcom should stop making so many awesome franchises then!
1000% this.

I'm almost sad that Capcom has turned things around and is doing so well lately, because a few years ago, I was hoping Nintendo would just buy Capcom(like I'm still wishing they'd do with Konami) and make all of Capcom's franchises 1st party franchises. Then you'd be pretty much guaranteed to see them all in Smash.
 
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CapitaineCrash

Smash Champion
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Considering that the team have the time to build some new games modes will doing the Fighter pass characters, and that they will most likely stop doing new game modes, I think some echo might happen.
 

osby

Smash Obsessed
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Would semi clones like Isabelle and Lucas be off the table though, or?
*shrugs*

I personally expect neither, because Nintendo and Sakurai's comments really drilled the whole "adding new stuff" thing, as far as characters go.

Though, I think Daisy-like echoes would be somehow more likely, if they come with a newcomer like :ultsimon::ultrichter:.
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
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I understand and respect your position on Echoes. I really do. You clearly have a very firm stance on their place in Ultimate, so all I'm gonna do is counter argue super quick.

- People only passionately hated Echoes back when they were considered clones, and that was only because they genuinely thought that Dark Pit and Lucina were "stealing slots" from other characters. We now know that that isn't the case and, while yes they still do take time to develop, they are also not taking up nearly as much development time as you think.

- Echoes exist to pad out the roster with more fan favorites, and you're acting like that's a bad thing, which I don't understand?

- No Echo would sell nearly as well as a brand new fighter, especially for $5.99. I 100% agree with that. After all, Sakurai specifically stated that the Pass would not include Echoes. But we're getting DLC AFTER the Pass, and nobody except Nintendo knows what that will entail. If we got a bunch of Echoes for, say, $3 instead of $6, you better believe they would sell.

- Your argument insists that any remaining Echoes would only be scrapping the bottom of the barrel in terms of characters, but you're forgetting Dixie Kong, Impa, and Tetra, three beloved characters who fans do love and want. Hell, throw Urbosa in there as a more modern option, as well. Alongside Shadow/Metal Sonic and Ms. Pac-Man (and hell maybe even an Echo of one of our Pass fighters) and you have a hell of a lineup being sold for a discounted price. I've heard people say they would 100% spend money on costume packs for existing characters, they would ABSOLUTELY buy more Echoes.
I actually don't expect this new love affair with Echoes to last. I think people have generally always had issues with clones and Sakurai managed to supress that for a little while with the Echo rebranding. Post game content is different from base game, and it brings with it a new set of expectations. There's no "Everyone is Here!" to lean on like there was in base game, so echoes have to survive on their own merits in the DLC season... and I don't think they measure up on any level but towards the handful of people clamoring for them. They have very little range. Like, you list Tetra and Urbosa as options... those characters literally have no options to be an Echo of. Most of Impa's designs also don't align with Sheik's outside of Hyrule Warriors. Mrs. Pac-Man is probably never going to happen because Bandai-Namco has little to no interest in her as a character and she's missed out on any Smash representation twice now. Shadow would have also probably happened if he was possible given how he's one of the ideal choices for an Echo fighter, but he didn't. The only one you've mentioned that works is Dixie Kong, and a great deal of people prefer her to be a semi-clone and actually use her hair attacks because the whole Donkey Kong Up-B transition has always seemed like seriously underestimating the differences between what a Dixie Kong hair whip would be and DK's massive rotating his arms Up-B.

As for my issue with padding, Smash's roster is 81 character deep right now counting the existing Echoes. Smash is one of the games with the fewest number of clone fighters (at least certainly of game's this size) and it just comes off as cheap monetization when you start cranking out clones for the sake of clones. Your just throwing developmental resources to buff up a number at a certain point given how few Echoes are more broadly appealing and can contribute to Smash's legacy. Except for a couple of third party options, they largely don't and just shallowly expand universes with a different face. Again, my question is, why spend the effort developing Echoes when all of those resources could be put towards unique newcomers? If Nintendo is only giving a shoestring budget to support Ultimate, sure, they make sense in that scenario, but that's completely unlikely to be the case given what has been said about the next wave already and how they're all in on post Fighter's Pass support. People on average prefer unique newcomers (look at every poll, it's dominated by characters that would have to be unique inclusions), so in the name of accomplishing your goals as a developer, I don't see the logic behind continuing Echo fighters.

Will they sell? Yes, of course they will. But it's the same argument as first parties vs third parties, except, as I've mentioned before, the issues of the first parties are exacerbated. All of these options will sell in a vacuum and appeal to specific audiences, but which ones are the most beneficial from a sales perspective, which ones benefit the ongoing health of post launch support the most widely, which of the options satisfy the fan base, etc. Nintendo is a company we all like and even love, but we would do well to not forget that they are a business looking at their business interests and Smash is a cash cow that they are looking to make the most of and Sakurai is looking to passionately expand Smash in meaningful ways. I just don't see them aligning with those goals in the same way as others.
 

RaintheCriminalWhirlwind

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I hope if we do get a Tales rep in Smash, I would personally love to see Estelle/Yuri from Tales of Vesperia OR Luke/Tear from Tales of Abyss. I know many want Luke from Tales of Symphonia but I think any of those 4 would be awesome.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I hope if we do get a Tales rep in Smash, I would personally love to see Estelle/Yuri from Tales of Vesperia OR Luke/Tear from Tales of Abyss. I know many want Luke from Tales of Symphonia but I think any of those 4 would be awesome.
Lloyd's the one people want from Symphonia. Though there's been rumours for Velvet from Berseria
 

DaybreakHorizon

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Not at all related to Smash, but this is something neat for my fellow KH fans. Donald and Goofy in KH costumes showed up at a Disney park.


More exposure for KH is always a good thing in my book. It shows Disney is taking the series more seriously, and might make more of an effort to promote it like putting Sora in Smash please Disney put him in the game ;((((((.
 

osby

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As for my issue with padding, Smash's roster is 81 character deep right now counting the existing Echoes. Smash is one of the games with the fewest number of clone fighters (at least certainly of game's this size) and it just comes off as cheap monetization when you start cranking out clones for the sake of clones. Your just throwing developmental resources to buff up a number at a certain point given how few Echoes are more broadly appealing and can contribute to Smash's legacy. Except for a couple of third party options, they largely don't and just shallowly expand universes with a different face. Again, my question is, why spend the effort developing Echoes when all of those resources could be put towards unique newcomers? If Nintendo is only giving a shoestring budget to support Ultimate, sure, they make sense in that scenario, but that's completely unlikely to be the case given what has been said about the next wave already and how they're all in on post Fighter's Pass support. People on average prefer unique newcomers (look at every poll, it's dominated by characters that would have to be unique inclusions), so in the name of accomplishing your goals as a developer, I don't see the logic behind continuing Echo fighters.
Okay, I have a few problems with the other paragraphs, but this is a good point.

Clones are always a bonus in the base games. I'm sure a lot of people won't mind paying for the characters they like, but you're essentially selling them the same moveset twice.

Also agreed that Smash hardly needs any more padding, which is what echoes essentially are, like it or not.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

Smash the State
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I hope if we do get a Tales rep in Smash, I would personally love to see Estelle/Yuri from Tales of Vesperia OR Luke/Tear from Tales of Abyss. I know many want Luke from Tales of Symphonia but I think any of those 4 would be awesome.
Lloyd's the one people want from Symphonia. Though there's been rumours for Velvet from Berseria
Nope. The clear choice:
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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Ultimate is very likely to be the final gaming industry crossover. Why don't you want your characters to be invited even they'll end up as boring clones?
If Sakurai managed to get Geno's right but couldn't make him as unique as other DLCs due to time constraints and he became a literal Mii Gunner clone, would you Geno fans really turn him down rather than welcoming him to THE Ultimate Smash?
 

Cutie Gwen

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Ultimate is very likely to be the final gaming industry crossover. Why don't you want your characters to be invited even they'll end up as boring clones?
If Sakurai managed to get Geno's right but couldn't make him as unique as other DLCs due to time constraints and he became a literal Mii Gunner clone, would you Geno fans really turn him down rather than welcoming him to THE Ultimate Smash?
Considering how I've seen people complain that the character they wanted isn't top tier then yeah I can see people complain about a character getting to have little identity of their own
 

BlueMonk

Smash Champion
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Didn't Injustice 2 basically sell echo fighters? I don't think they were met with negative reception.
 

RileyXY1

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Ultimate is very likely to be the final gaming industry crossover. Why don't you want your characters to be invited even they'll end up as boring clones?
If Sakurai managed to get Geno's right but couldn't make him as unique as other DLCs due to time constraints and he became a literal Mii Gunner clone, would you Geno fans really turn him down rather than welcoming him to THE Ultimate Smash?
I highly doubt that UItimate would be the last Smash game ever.
 

RoboFist

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
374
I actually don't expect this new love affair with Echoes to last. I think people have generally always had issues with clones and Sakurai managed to supress that for a little while with the Echo rebranding. Post game content is different from base game, and it brings with it a new set of expectations. There's no "Everyone is Here!" to lean on like there was in base game, so echoes have to survive on their own merits in the DLC season... and I don't think they measure up on any level but towards the handful of people clamoring for them. They have very little range. Like, you list Tetra and Urbosa as options... those characters literally have no options to be an Echo of. Most of Impa's designs also don't align with Sheik's outside of Hyrule Warriors. Mrs. Pac-Man is probably never going to happen because Bandai-Namco has little to no interest in her as a character and she's missed out on any Smash representation twice now. Shadow would have also probably happened if he was possible given how he's one of the ideal choices for an Echo fighter, but he didn't. The only one you've mentioned that works is Dixie Kong, and a great deal of people prefer her to be a semi-clone and actually use her hair attacks because the whole Donkey Kong Up-B transition has always seemed like seriously underestimating the differences between what a Dixie Kong hair whip would be and DK's massive rotating his arms Up-B.

As for my issue with padding, Smash's roster is 81 character deep right now counting the existing Echoes. Smash is one of the games with the fewest number of clone fighters (at least certainly of game's this size) and it just comes off as cheap monetization when you start cranking out clones for the sake of clones. Your just throwing developmental resources to buff up a number at a certain point given how few Echoes are more broadly appealing and can contribute to Smash's legacy. Except for a couple of third party options, they largely don't and just shallowly expand universes with a different face. Again, my question is, why spend the effort developing Echoes when all of those resources could be put towards unique newcomers? If Nintendo is only giving a shoestring budget to support Ultimate, sure, they make sense in that scenario, but that's completely unlikely to be the case given what has been said about the next wave already and how they're all in on post Fighter's Pass support. People on average prefer unique newcomers (look at every poll, it's dominated by characters that would have to be unique inclusions), so in the name of accomplishing your goals as a developer, I don't see the logic behind continuing Echo fighters.

Will they sell? Yes, of course they will. But it's the same argument as first parties vs third parties, except, as I've mentioned before, the issues of the first parties are exacerbated. All of these options will sell in a vacuum and appeal to specific audiences, but which ones are the most beneficial from a sales perspective, which ones benefit the ongoing health of post launch support the most widely, which of the options satisfy the fan base, etc. Nintendo is a company we all like and even love, but we would do well to not forget that they are a business looking at their business interests and Smash is a cash cow that they are looking to make the most of and Sakurai is looking to passionately expand Smash in meaningful ways. I just don't see them aligning with those goals in the same way as others.
Real talk? Fair enough haha.
 

Hypercat-Z

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I think the reception of Sans has opened the doors for more and more costumes than originally planned.
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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I highly doubt that UItimate would be the last Smash game ever.
I'm saying that Ultimate would probably be the last Smash with the opportunity to fight against this many gaming legends.
At this point, I think "wanting to be in Smash" and "wanting to be in Ultimate" aren't the same.
 

3BitSaurus

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Just out of curiosity: we know for a fact that we're getting more than just one bonus fighter after the pass. That means there is a chance of yet another double E3 reveal next year.

Who do you guys think it would be? Which characters could be next season's "Hero and Banjo"?
 
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TheCJBrine

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Ultimate is very likely to be the final gaming industry crossover. Why don't you want your characters to be invited even they'll end up as boring clones?
If Sakurai managed to get Geno's right but couldn't make him as unique as other DLCs due to time constraints and he became a literal Mii Gunner clone, would you Geno fans really turn him down rather than welcoming him to THE Ultimate Smash?
A clone is still better than a costume.

But yeah I'd be disappointed that he doesn't use his own moves. This scenario is unlikely, though.
 
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EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
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Ultimate is very likely to be the final gaming industry crossover. Why don't you want your characters to be invited even they'll end up as boring clones?
If Sakurai managed to get Geno's right but couldn't make him as unique as other DLCs due to time constraints and he became a literal Mii Gunner clone, would you Geno fans really turn him down rather than welcoming him to THE Ultimate Smash?
Actually? Yeah, I’d probably turn that down because I absolutely despise how the Mii gunner plays. That’s a waste to me at that point and not the character I’m interested in and I would prefer if someone else got a character they wanted that actually fit more accurately as an Echo if they absolutely had to make an Echo. It’s why on the whole I prefer assist trophies to Mii costumes for characters that can’t be fighters. I have zero enjoyment of Mii fighters and they don’t even look like the characters they’re supposed to be representing, whereas assist trophies can at least realize a proper modeling of the character.

I’m just not on board with more Echoes. I think you could do alternate costumes and be fine if you really needed to sell more stuff (and I don’t think you do, but this is my compromise) while focusing all of the heavy lifting on further unique newcomers. It doesn’t matter who the character is, Echoes don’t seem like the most valuable additions to me. My only Echo Want is Mrs. Pac-Man and that’s entirely in my Ultimate wish fulfilling scenario that she gets bundled with a PAC-Maze stage (which means I just want the stage actually, I don’t need her really haha). Or even if we had to get characters based off of others I would prefer semi-clones that go further in differentiating themselves and can pick up more unique qualities.
 

DarthEnderX

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I'm saying that Ultimate would probably be the last Smash with the opportunity to fight against this many gaming legends.
I don't. I think the whole "We'll probably never be able to do this again." schtick is just a ruse so that people will be excited all over again when the next game ends up being "EVERYONE IS HERE!" as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo worked out deals so they always have the option of reupping each deal for future Smash games.
 
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RaintheCriminalWhirlwind

Smash Journeyman
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I don't. I think the whole "We'll probably never be able to do this again." schtick is just a ruse so that people will be excited all over again when the next game ends up being "EVERYONE IS HERE!" as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo worked out deals so they always have the option of reupping each deal for future Smash games.
Honestly, I bet Nintendo will keep porting Ultimate and adding more characters honestly. This game is pretty damn perfect before the DLCs and will be damn near legendary once they are done
 

RileyXY1

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Honestly, I bet Nintendo will keep porting Ultimate and adding more characters honestly. This game is pretty damn perfect before the DLCs and will be damn near legendary once they are done
The roster would get too big if that was the case. Eventually, they are going to need to cut it down.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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Also for anyone thinking Sora is a Square rep take a look at this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is supposedly normal for most KH merchandise in the US. Sora is very much a Disney character.
 
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EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
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3,197
I don't. I think the whole "We'll probably never be able to do this again." schtick is just a ruse so that people will be excited all over again when the next game ends up being "EVERYONE IS HERE!" as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo worked out deals so they always have the option of reupping each deal for future Smash games.
At a certain point, having Everyone is Here just becomes unreasonably expensive from a production standpoint. They had to draw heavily from Smash 4 just to make Ultimate, and unless they continue doing that in future titles, there's just no way to efficiently retain this large of a roster. The roster will end at a minimum of 84 characters (Terry, #5, post Fighter's Pass #1 and #2 since they said characters plural) and will probably end closer to 90 overall. That's an absurd number to bring back regardless of if they've made long-term deals or not for these characters. Could you imagine, having to ensure that 90 characters are in your game and then knowing you had to probably implement another 10 brand new ones? Ultimate only had to bring back 65 characters and it still struggled to get over 10 newcomers and was lacking in modes. With that many characters, you're basically going to have to just have Smash and the characters haha.

I don't know if Sakurai would want to negotiate with a non-video game company.
Why wouldn't he? Sora is a video game character and Disney has had video game divisions before that produced Kingdom Hearts. They're just another company that has to be licensed from in the grand scheme of things, and a business that typically realizes that fruitful ventures can pay off for them.
 
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RileyXY1

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Why wouldn't he? Sora is a video game character and Disney has had video game divisions before that produced Kingdom Hearts. They're just another company that has to be licensed from in the grand scheme of things, and a business that typically realizes that fruitful ventures can pay off for them.
Sakurai might be worried that doing so would open the floodgates to allow non video game characters in Smash.
 

BlueMonk

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Sakurai might be worried that doing so would open the floodgates to allow non video game characters in Smash.
Sakurai might not include Sora due to the Disney elements, but I doubt he's concerned with "opening the floodgates", he's the one who controls the floodgates
 

Flyboy

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Sakurai might not include Sora due to the Disney elements, but I doubt he's concerned with "opening the floodgates", he's the one who controls the floodgates
You don't get it man if they add Sora that means that Sakurai will lose all self-control and that's how we get Scrooge McDuck, so...

So........

...This sounds great, actually. Turns out he was our Capcom rep all along. Moon Theme in Smash when.
 
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