Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Flyboy

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In terms of Capcom reps I feel like Amaterasu is slept on big time
I'm with you. While it may be a cult classic, Okami is rightly regarded as one of the best games ever and Ammy has a beautiful art style and is one of Capcom's most recognizable heroines as a result. Maybe she isn't talked about, but I can't see any backlash coming from her inclusion and she'd be a lovely surprise.
 
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Speaking of being slept on. I feel in terms of Square reps I think Lara Croft is one especially after Terry's reveal which I recall wasn't demanded that much or at least close to the likes of:ultbanjokazooie::ultkrool::ultridley::ultsimon::ultrichter:

I say this because there's a reason Terry was added. SNK's legacy in gaming and Fatal Fury/King of Fighters being the inspiration for Smash.

Lara is THE video game female protagonist and a big thing in the 90's. Something to think about I wouldn't be surprised if she's chosen as the another Square rep if they get another one beyond this pass.
 
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I think people were hyped for Sans because even fans didn’t expect him or Undertale itself to appear in Smash. His mii costume also hides the mii even moreso than Skull Kid’s so it looks just like him, and it’s even better because the gunner fits him (though it still has things he probably wouldn’t do but hey, you can give him Ness’s down special and shoot lasers), however people would’ve certainly been more hyped if he was an actual fighter.

Personally, I would be somewhat happy for, say, Ninten getting in as an echo, but also disappointed that he’s not a full fighter. He has moves in his game that can make him unique from Ness or Lucas, and if he were to be a Ness echo then they sure as heck better change the yo-yo attacks, PK Flash and PK Starstorm, because they don’t even exist in the first Mother game. Of course, characters like Octoling could just be like Daisy and Richter.
 

KatKit

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If this is referring to the Street Fighter one, her proportions are too different. Ken may be the cheating echo, but he still abides by rules like body shape and weight.
Like the Wii Fit Trainers, they're as close to body proportions as opposite sex can get. Her poofy shirt sleeves even match his buff shoulders lol. It's about as much of a difference as between the Belmonts (Simon is buff; Richter is fit).

 
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ROBnWatch

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Personally, I would be somewhat happy for, say, Ninten getting in as an echo, but also disappointed that he’s not a full fighter. He has moves in his game that can make him unique from Ness or Lucas, and if he were to be a Ness echo then they sure as heck better change the yo-yo attacks, PK Flash and PK Starstorm, because they don’t even exist in the first Mother game. Of course, characters like Octoling could just be like Daisy and Richter.
That never even occurred to me...what WOULD Ninten’s FS be? Echo or not, he can’t have PK Starstorm...and PK (favorite thing) didn’t exist in EarthBound Beginnings either... Maybe just other party members show up and unleash some attacks similar to Shulk’s FS? Perhaps it could also incorporate EVE too as the finishing blow.

As for Octoling, the only change that would be necessary to make from Inkling (other than model adjustments) would be giving them the Octoshot as the primary weapon instead of the Inkling’s Splattershot.
 

EricTheGamerman

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just want to say that the main reason echos take less time is because they DON'T have to be balanced and that cuts out most of the development time
That depends on how different the Echo is to the original. Chrom, Lucina, and especially Ken all differ enough from their original counterparts to need more fine tuned balancing. It may be easier to balance them overall than a full character, but there's still plenty of work that goes into making them work properly. Not to mention, almost all of the ideas surrounding Echoes seems to be more on the Chrom side of things as opposed to the Richter side. People want characters to be more unique.

What? Almost any post-release content increases activity in fighting games; Smash is no exception. You seriously believe that there will be outrage of adding hype characters that take considerably less time/resources to make (at a discount), when a Mii costume like Sans got people excited? By all means, I think they should focus on adding new complete characters first, but echoes have a lot to bring to the table once development slows down. You don't even have to 'bastardize' certain characters to make them work (see: Ken). Why not expand some of these worlds we just introduced? Kasumi Yoshizawa from Persona 5 comes to mind (seriously, what was with that whole "Jane" thing?). Smash needs more villains? How about Akuma or Evil Ryu. More Women? Sakura or the DQ Heroines. I know I'd buy it. Felt Fantasy got the short end of the stick, or don't like Cloud as a character? Here's Zack Fair. What about 1st party characters? How about Octolings. Any of the upcoming DLC could have dope Echo equivalents, too. Hypothetically speaking, if we got Travis, for example, there's Henry. I think you get the idea.
Once again, bringing up the excitement of the Mii costume is a horrible false equivalency given his specific set of circumstances that literally no Echo will even come close to. The success of Sans is specific to that character, much as the success of other additions to Smash would be because of the character that people are interested in and very few of the Echoes even provide the opportunity for recognition, let alone hype. I don't think people will be outraged (I mean, some will because this is still Smash and I do think putting development resources towards Echoes is a more legitimate thing to take issue with), but I do think on the whole people will be more apathetic about their inclusion and they are never going to be able to even achieve a portion of the hype that is critical to post game support that full newcomers will.

I mean, the options you're giving for Echoes reek of padding the roster with mid-effort clones. Kasumi has yet to be proven as a character on her own merit/people are probably not going to be super excited about another Persona 5 character. Street Fighter is already the third party series with arguably the most representation in the game, so I'm sure just padding out the Shoto clones even more will not go over well. 4 Marths? How about 4 Ryus? (and Evil Ryu would be as bad if not worse than Dark Pit I feel like). Zack Fair isn't exactly some beloved icon in his own right either as mostly just an extended FF7 lore type character.

All these characters just serve the purpose of appealing to existing niches and don't really have extended excitement factor. They lose their value substantially when presented on their own without a larger base roster to back them up. They only kind of work if you present with another character... but at that point, why are you throwing additional resources behind a character you know is just kind an addendum as opposed to its own marquee thing? I just don't see Nintendo jumping on the idea of Echoes. Yes, they are inherently cheaper to produce, but they are less profitable (you would have to sell them for less than a full fighter AND they're less attractive to the consumer as glorified alternate costumes), fundamentally cannot achieve any expansion into new universes, more or less have to be B-tier and below characters in terms of popularity and recognition, and don't satisfy much fan demand. I just don't see any reason for them to really bring enough benefit to take any amount of resources away from full characters at this point. They were an elegant solution to a problem exclusive to the base roster, now they would function as inelegant padding given that time, money, and priority are not the problems they were for base game.
 

CapitaineCrash

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That never even occurred to me...what WOULD Ninten’s FS be? Echo or not, he can’t have PK Starstorm...and PK (favorite thing) didn’t exist in EarthBound Beginnings either... Maybe just other party members show up and unleash some attacks similar to Shulk’s FS? Perhaps it could also incorporate EVE too as the finishing blow.
To be fair Ness doesn't even learn Pk Starstorm in Earthbound, but it's Poo.
 
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To be fair Ness doesn't even learn Pk Starstorm in Earthbound, but it's Poo.
At least PK Starstorm existed in EarthBound, it wouldn't represent Beginnings at all.

I think the Melee trophies mentioned that Paula and Poo taught Ness those powers for Smash, but that excuse can't be used for Ninten.
 
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Flyboy

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That depends on how different the Echo is to the original. Chrom, Lucina, and especially Ken all differ enough from their original counterparts to need more fine tuned balancing. It may be easier to balance them overall than a full character, but there's still plenty of work that goes into making them work properly. Not to mention, almost all of the ideas surrounding Echoes seems to be more on the Chrom side of things as opposed to the Richter side. People want characters to be more unique.



Once again, bringing up the excitement of the Mii costume is a horrible false equivalency given his specific set of circumstances that literally no Echo will even come close to. The success of Sans is specific to that character, much as the success of other additions to Smash would be because of the character that people are interested in and very few of the Echoes even provide the opportunity for recognition, let alone hype. I don't think people will be outraged (I mean, some will because this is still Smash and I do think putting development resources towards Echoes is a more legitimate thing to take issue with), but I do think on the whole people will be more apathetic about their inclusion and they are never going to be able to even achieve a portion of the hype that is critical to post game support that full newcomers will.

I mean, the options you're giving for Echoes reek of padding the roster with mid-effort clones. Kasumi has yet to be proven as a character on her own merit/people are probably not going to be super excited about another Persona 5 character. Street Fighter is already the third party series with arguably the most representation in the game, so I'm sure just padding out the Shoto clones even more will not go over well. 4 Marths? How about 4 Ryus? (and Evil Ryu would be as bad if not worse than Dark Pit I feel like). Zack Fair isn't exactly some beloved icon in his own right either as mostly just an extended FF7 lore type character.

All these characters just serve the purpose of appealing to existing niches and don't really have extended excitement factor. They lose their value substantially when presented on their own without a larger base roster to back them up. They only kind of work if you present with another character... but at that point, why are you throwing additional resources behind a character you know is just kind an addendum as opposed to its own marquee thing? I just don't see Nintendo jumping on the idea of Echoes. Yes, they are inherently cheaper to produce, but they are less profitable (you would have to sell them for less than a full fighter AND they're less attractive to the consumer as glorified alternate costumes), fundamentally cannot achieve any expansion into new universes, more or less have to be B-tier and below characters in terms of popularity and recognition, and don't satisfy much fan demand. I just don't see any reason for them to really bring enough benefit to take any amount of resources away from full characters at this point. They were an elegant solution to a problem exclusive to the base roster, now they would function as inelegant padding given that time, money, and priority are not the problems they were for base game.
While I mostly agree with what you're saying I will say that Zack Fair is absolutely a beloved icon in his own right, to the point that they made a whole game for him just because of how popular he was in his one scene. A Zack echo would be universally praised among FF7 fans, I can guarantee that.

On a personal level I'd love Sakura and Dan as well but I'm a Street Fighter nerd who really wants Chun-Li and M. Bison in the game so, y'know, it's all subjective.
 

Us3inMN

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I want more characters from new franchises, just because we can truly make this the biggest gaming crossover of all time! I mean, there's already around 240 (including spin-offs like Mario Party and Dedede's Drum Dash Deluxe) series represented in some way, why not add more??
 

EricTheGamerman

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Speaking of being slept on. I feel in terms of Square reps I think Lara Croft is one especially after Terry's reveal which I recall wasn't demanded that much or at least close to the likes of:ultbanjokazooie::ultkrool::ultridley::ultsimon::ultrichter:

I say this because there's a reason Terry was added. SNK's legacy in gaming and Fatal Fury/King of Fighters being the inspiration for Smash.

Lara is THE video game female protagonist and a big thing in the 90's. Something to think about I wouldn't be surprised if she's chosen as the another Square rep if they get another one beyond this pass.
Tomb Raider sells fairly poorly in Japan, so I think that hurts her more than people recognize. She's not the same icon over there that she is to the Western PS1 generation. She's barely even a "Square Enix" rep too since she's an acquisition of a western company (Eidos), so I don't really think if we got her that would somehow rule out other Square Enix options.

She's certainly a good option, but much like Doom Guy, I think the lack of Japanese appeal is her biggest hurdle and may stop her from being as obvious as an inclusion as people in the West think. I also think the Geno factor (and I'm obviously biased here, but entertain me) is kind of at a do or die moment for Smash Bros. If Sakurai is ever going to get Geno in, this is arguably his best (and possibly only) opportunity to do so in order to both create the fighter he is interested in and fulfill the fan demand for the character.

In an ideal world we'd pick up Sora, Lara, and Geno since they all represent different facets of Square Enix that are also separate from the mainstream Square Enix already realized in Ultimate (Disney, Edios, and niche Nintendo/Square Enix crossover)... but that may be asking for too much. Much like Capcom has too many damn IPs worth putting in Smash, Square Enix holds a lot of really good and desired options.

While I mostly agree with what you're saying I will say that Zack Fair is absolutely a beloved icon in his own right, to the point that they made a whole game for him just because of how popular he was in his one scene. A Zack echo would be universally praised among FF7 fans, I can guarantee that.

On a personal level I'd love Sakura and Dan as well but I'm a Street Fighter nerd who really wants Chun-Li and M. Bison in the game so, y'know, it's all subjective.
Well ****, seems you're right on Zack. That's super weird to me since I'd never really seen much fanfare for him anecdotally and it seemed like the additional Final Fantasy VII extended world stuff never got great reviews or was even super well received among fans (I've heard some positive stuff about Crisis Core and that's it). I just seem to have missed his popularity entirely.
 
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Us3inMN

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She's certainly a good option, but much like Doom Guy, I think the lack of Japanese appeal is her biggest hurdle and may stop her from being as obvious as an inclusion as people in the West think.
If I'm correct, isn't the SNK fighting games more popular in Japan? If they follow what they did with Hero and Banjo, then a Western rep could be the 5th DLC.
 

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Resident Evil has a lot in its corner, but I'm a little iffy given Proto Man and Zero had their Mii costumes released alongside Banjo, when it feels like it would be a better idea to sell all of the previous Capcom costumes alongside a Capcom character. After all, Tails and Knuckles had their costumes sold alongside fellow Sega character Joker (granted, Akira and Jacky weren't sold alongside Joker, but hindsight does say it would make more sense to bring those costumes back for Terry's release).

Then again, Geno and Chocobo weren't sold alongside Hero, so who knows what could be happening.
 
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Flyboy

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Tomb Raider sells fairly poorly in Japan, so I think that hurts her more than people recognize. She's not the same icon over there that she is to the Western PS1 generation. She's barely even a "Square Enix" rep too since she's an acquisition of a western company (Eidos), so I don't really think if we got her that would somehow rule out other Square Enix options.

She's certainly a good option, but much like Doom Guy, I think the lack of Japanese appeal is her biggest hurdle and may stop her from being as obvious as an inclusion as people in the West think. I also think the Geno factor (and I'm obviously biased here, but entertain me) is kind of at a do or die moment for Smash Bros. If Sakurai is ever going to get Geno in, this is arguably his best (and possibly only) opportunity to do so in order to both create the fighter he is interested in and fulfill the fan demand for the character.

In an ideal world we'd pick up Sora, Lara, and Geno since they all represent different facets of Square Enix that are also separate from the mainstream Square Enix already realized in Ultimate (Disney, Edios, and niche Nintendo/Square Enix crossover)... but that may be asking for too much. Much like Capcom has too many damn IPs worth putting in Smash, Square Enix holds a lot of really good and desired options.



Well ****, seems you're right on Zack. That's super weird to me since I'd never really seen much fanfare for him anecdotally and it seemed like the additional Final Fantasy VII extended world stuff never got great reviews or was even super well received among fans (I've heard some positive stuff about Crisis Core and that's it). I just seem to have missed his popularity entirely.
I could also attribute the lack of people talking about Zack to the fact that his entire existence...shall we say, leans heavily on some of the biggest spoilers in FF7. Still, the dude was in the PlayStation port of Ehrgeiz with Cloud, Tifa, and Sephiroth for a reason and this was before Advent Children and Crisis Core.
 

cothero

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Speaking of being slept on. I feel in terms of Square reps I think Lara Croft is one especially after Terry's reveal which I recall wasn't demanded that much or at least close to the likes of:ultbanjokazooie::ultkrool::ultridley::ultsimon::ultrichter:

I say this because there's a reason Terry was added. SNK's legacy in gaming and Fatal Fury/King of Fighters being the inspiration for Smash.

Lara is THE video game female protagonist and a big thing in the 90's. Something to think about I wouldn't be surprised if she's chosen as the another Square rep if they get another one beyond this pass.
I agree. Lara is a obligatory addition if Sakurai really wants Smash to be the greatest video-game all-stars crossover.
 

Us3inMN

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I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia. They say it's because of a unique moveset yet his modern design looks like (and would probably play like) Mii Gunner. Plus, some people just jump on the hype train because everyone else is doing the same.

Go ahead and yell at me now.
 

osby

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I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia. They say it's because of a unique moveset yet his modern design looks like (and would probably play like) Mii Gunner. Plus, some people just jump on the hype train because everyone else is doing the same.

Go ahead and yell at me now.
Okay, but none of this make his fanbase any smaller.

He was always a character that only backed up with his fans. Why they support him won't change that.
 

M@R!3

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I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia. They say it's because of a unique moveset yet his modern design looks like (and would probably play like) Mii Gunner. Plus, some people just jump on the hype train because everyone else is doing the same.

Go ahead and yell at me now.
Does the reason why really matter if they truly like the character? I don't think it does.
 

EricTheGamerman

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I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia. They say it's because of a unique moveset yet his modern design looks like (and would probably play like) Mii Gunner. Plus, some people just jump on the hype train because everyone else is doing the same.

Go ahead and yell at me now.
He'd play very differently from Mii Gunner. Mii Gunner is a slow, heavy tank like character. Whereas Geno is a fast paced, light, glass cannon type of character in Super Mario RPG. Tons of damage output possibility, but also weak defensively. You'd also probably be including time hits and emphasizing different types of projectiles to further diversify him from the Mii Gunner. I actually think Mii Gunner is a horrible fit for him as a character given how the only thing they really share are the focus on projectiles.

And I mean it's Smash, 95% of what people want in the game comes from nostalgia and jumping on hype trains. Doesn't mean any of those character choices are less legitimate.

If I'm correct, isn't the SNK fighting games more popular in Japan? If they follow what they did with Hero and Banjo, then a Western rep could be the 5th DLC.
Yeha, but Sakurai has often emphasized that he wants to focus on Japanese gaming in Smash Bros. and while I don't think that precludes any Western characters, I do think that characters that have less popularity in Japan are going to have more of an uphill battle than those that do as they're not as immediately recognizable icons. Crash Bandicoot was actually a popular IP in Japan while Spyro completely failed to resonate. Obviously Sakurai does know about worldwide appeal, but he's still going to be influenced by the Japanese gaming scene overall and will likely still prioritize those types of choices. There also doesn't really need to be any inherent balance to how roster additions are made (by the way, SNK is very popular in Latin America, which in part makes his a Western pick, just not the West people usually think of).

I swear to god if we get another Capcom character and "too many Capcom characters" becomes the next common complaint here, I will punch a boulder into the nearest volcano I can find
Eh, just make Nintendo vs. Capcom at this point and let other IPs/companies crossover into Smash is my opinion at this point. It's a little bit harder for me to get excited about Capcom characters when they've basically all appeared in a fighting game with well devised move sets on a personal level. I'm personally also more interested in seeing how you make a character that has never been in one prior or has appeared in very few or no crossovers. I respect the different series and Capcom, they just don't really resonate with me personally in Smash.

Honestly Geno probably wouldn't be that popular if Sakurai never mentionned him in the first place. It's just like Incineroar became very popualr when Vergeben mentioned him, and Chorus kids became also popular because of the Gematsu leak and the unused Rhythm heaven emblem in Smash 4.
You do know that Geno was popular prior to Sakurai's comments on him, right? Like in that interview, Sakurai literally said that, "He's very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests." So by all logic he had to have a fan base prior to Sakurai ever acknowledging him (this is the only time Sakurai has ever commented upon Geno for reference too, and that was in late 2015, almost a decade after his fan base first popped up).
 
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I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia. They say it's because of a unique moveset yet his modern design looks like (and would probably play like) Mii Gunner. Plus, some people just jump on the hype train because everyone else is doing the same.

Go ahead and yell at me now.
I mean, I largely agree with you, but you could say the same about pretty much any newcomer in this game that had any sort of popular demand. Sonic, Mega Man, Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, etc. etc. etc.

The fact of the matter is that, for some reason, a large amount of people latched on to this character and are vocally advocating for their inclusion, and Geno's main barriers of entry are out of the way. If Geno has a chance, it's now.
Honestly Geno probably wouldn't be that popular if Sakurai never mentionned him in the first place. It's just like Incineroar became very popualr when Vergeben mentioned him, and Chorus kids became also popular because of the Gematsu leak and the unused Rhythm heaven emblem in Smash 4.
Geno's always been a thing. He was a very popular request for Brawl, but largely died down in Sm4sh speculation since no one thought it'd happen. When the other two characters in the "unholy trinity" (Ridley and K. Rool) got in, all of the sleeper cell Geno fans activated and started back up again.

Gosh, imagine the day I end up advocating for Geno. What a world we live in...
 
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ze9

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I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia. They say it's because of a unique moveset yet his modern design looks like (and would probably play like) Mii Gunner. Plus, some people just jump on the hype train because everyone else is doing the same.

Go ahead and yell at me now.
What's wrong with nostalgia? Nostalgia is basically the entire premise of Smash Bros., or at least it's something that's been deeply ingrained into the series' identity ever since the very first game.
 

ROBnWatch

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At least PK Starstorm existed in EarthBound, it wouldn't represent Beginnings at all.

I think the Melee trophies mentioned that Paula and Poo taught Ness those powers for Smash, but that excuse can't be used for Ninten.
Well Ninten doesn’t learn any offensive PSI in Beginnings, so he’d need to learn it from Ana anyways.
 
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Honestly Geno probably wouldn't be that popular if Sakurai never mentionned him in the first place. It's just like Incineroar became very popualr when Vergeben mentioned him, and Chorus kids became also popular because of the Gematsu leak and the unused Rhythm heaven emblem in Smash 4.
Sakurai mentioned Geno because of how popular and requested he was. You got your timeline backwards.
 

Garteam

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Honestly Geno probably wouldn't be that popular if Sakurai never mentionned him in the first place. It's just like Incineroar became very popualr when Vergeben mentioned him, and Chorus kids became also popular because of the Gematsu leak and the unused Rhythm heaven emblem in Smash 4.
No, Geno was popular prior to Sakurai. Back in Brawl speculation, before Sakurai said anything regarding Geno, he was the most requested character after Sonic. He was more requested than Mega Man, Ridley, Little Mac, or Krystal. Honestly, Geno was more popular back then than Banjo is now.
 

Calamitas

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I'm not particularly fond of Geno, either. But I'll say, if he does still make it in somehow, then we can probably conclude that all the DLC Mii costumes for this game, like Rex, have no chance of becoming DLC fighters.

He'd play very differently from Mii Gunner. Mii Gunner is a slow, heavy tank like character. Whereas Geno is a fast paced, light, glass cannon type of character in Super Mario RPG. Tons of damage output possibility, but also weak defensively. You'd also probably be including time hits and emphasizing different types of projectiles to further diversify him from the Mii Gunner. I actually think Mii Gunner is a horrible fit for him as a character given how the only thing they really share are the focus on projectiles.
Home game stats honestly don't really matter to Smash. Mewtwo in Pokémon games is reasonably tanky, in Smash it's an utter glass cannon. Ike in his own games is pretty fast, yet in Smash he got stuck with the "slow and powerful" archetype. Marth in his games isn't all that fast, and yet Smash made him into an all-around fast fighter. Shulk in his own game was more on the speedy side with lots of utility coming from the Monado, and yet, in Smash, his moves are somewhat on the slower side (though at least nowhere near as badly as they were in 4).
Point being, Sakurai might not even care that much about home game stats when it comes to translating any character to Smash.
 
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I became a Geno fan last year, I certainly have no nostalgia for him.

His projectiles are different from Mii Gunner's, the only moves the Gunner has that sort-of match one of Geno's moves is up-air and side-smash, but even then they're not the same.

Well Ninten doesn’t learn any offensive PSI in Beginnings, so he’d need to learn it from Ana anyways.
Yeah I wasn't thinking, I guess I was just focused on PK Starstorm.

He could work as a Lucas echo tbh, but they'd still need to change up at least a few of his normal moves and final smash.
 
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RoboFist

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Is there any good reason for revealing them all at once when Smash characters are easily the single biggest DLC reveals in basically all of gaming right now? Like, the speculation is what makes them this constant source of intrigue and discussion that keeps the game in the public conscious and ensures that every reveal is a big event that surprises people (well, most of the time, leakers aside) and really kicks up advertising on the game. Like, for Nintendo, who sees the benefit of revealing new characters more slowly and methodically, there's no damn good reason to just throw them all out there other than appease some fans who are terribly impatient/tired of speculating but still speculating. Why go for a single big announcement that you can't capitalize anymore when you can go for 5 different ones at a different points throughout the year that are notable moments for the game and help extend the game's life?



They don't add longevity to the game's life span. To be blunt, they do more harm to it as unexciting additions. A big part of why Smash Bros. DLC is so successful is that it's brand new characters from crossover universes being added into the game and it's becoming this increasingly legendary crossover for those inclusions. We've argued a lot about first parties vs. third parties in this speculation thread, but Echoes just exacerbate the problems of first party inclusions to an insane degree. They aren't nearly as exciting as the alternatives to a wide group of people and even worse, they're horribly limited in who you can even include given the Echo restrictions. Not to mention, you basically have to bastardize beloved characters to make them work in a lot of cases. Shadow is probably the only one that's going to pull any weight comparable to a full newcomer addition... and he's clearly not going to be an Echo since he wasn't one in the base game (This most likely comes down to Sega's requirements for the character and explains why the obvious win wasn't taken).

Like, the problem is, Echoes in DLC piss off a lot of people. You lose a set of people who just aren't interested in non-unique newcomers altogether. You frustrate people who think that DLC resources are better spent on full characters and other content. You potentially lose people in converting to beloved characters into half-versions of themselves. Not to mention almost all of the realistic options are pretty niche characters to begin with. All while you're getting basically a minor portion of the advertisement and positive buzz that the full characters would be bringing. Less buzz means less interest which means less sales and eventually the shorter life cycle of Ultimate if you lose enough in the process. The "sale" like mad isn't necessarily a given, and there's a strong likelihood they wouldn't sale as well as full fledged additions that inspire people to purchase characters more so.

Echoes only really make sense in the context of base Ultimate. Additions made to beef up the base roster when they couldn't devote enough resources to more full-fledged newcomers. They were a way to get the total number of additions up while not putting in as much effort because they also had to focus on so much other stuff. Now, there's nothing taking them away from newcomer development since it's actually the primary goal of production right now. There's no longer a need to compromise on development and you can instead just throw resources more consistently behind unique newcomers that will have an overall greater impact on continuing the game's life cycle and will earn more money, which would inspire Nintendo to focus on those. Not to mention, echoes don't fundamentally expand the world of Smash Bros. or its place as a crossover title... they just pad the roster with additions, and I don't really think that Sakurai is as interested in that either. So I don't actually see Nintendo or Sakurai really on board with Echoes.
I understand and respect your position on Echoes. I really do. You clearly have a very firm stance on their place in Ultimate, so all I'm gonna do is counter argue super quick.

- People only passionately hated Echoes back when they were considered clones, and that was only because they genuinely thought that Dark Pit and Lucina were "stealing slots" from other characters. We now know that that isn't the case and, while yes they still do take time to develop, they are also not taking up nearly as much development time as you think.

- Echoes exist to pad out the roster with more fan favorites, and you're acting like that's a bad thing, which I don't understand?

- No Echo would sell nearly as well as a brand new fighter, especially for $5.99. I 100% agree with that. After all, Sakurai specifically stated that the Pass would not include Echoes. But we're getting DLC AFTER the Pass, and nobody except Nintendo knows what that will entail. If we got a bunch of Echoes for, say, $3 instead of $6, you better believe they would sell.

- Your argument insists that any remaining Echoes would only be scrapping the bottom of the barrel in terms of characters, but you're forgetting Dixie Kong, Impa, and Tetra, three beloved characters who fans do love and want. Hell, throw Urbosa in there as a more modern option, as well. Alongside Shadow/Metal Sonic and Ms. Pac-Man (and hell maybe even an Echo of one of our Pass fighters) and you have a hell of a lineup being sold for a discounted price. I've heard people say they would 100% spend money on costume packs for existing characters, they would ABSOLUTELY buy more Echoes.

In terms of Capcom reps I feel like Amaterasu is slept on big time
She will always be my preferred Capcom rep, but I think a lot of us Okami fans have slowly admitted to ourselves that Ammy faces too stiff of competition from other, more popular Capcom franchises :(
 

cothero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
592
Honestly Geno probably wouldn't be that popular if Sakurai never mentionned him in the first place. It's just like Incineroar became very popualr when Vergeben mentioned him, and Chorus kids became also popular because of the Gematsu leak and the unused Rhythm heaven emblem in Smash 4.
You can add Doomguy to that list. If it wasn't for that first fake leak that guessed Joker and Erdick right (we got four DQ characters instead), Doomguy would never be considered a shoo-in as he is being considered by many right now. I'll repeat myself once again: the Smash fanbase is a extremely suggestive one.
 
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Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
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Honestly Geno probably wouldn't be that popular if Sakurai never mentionned him in the first place. It's just like Incineroar became very popualr when Vergeben mentioned him, and Chorus kids became also popular because of the Gematsu leak and the unused Rhythm heaven emblem in Smash 4.
That can't be right, that'd mean Geno is a bandwagon character and those are only anime swordsmen or leaked characters because bandwagons are purely evil!
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
2,145
Guys at this point you're asking for a Capcom crossover fighter, not a Smash Bros
Yeah, well, that's what Capcom gets for having the highest number of interesting characters and franchises after Nintendo.

Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
Nathan Spencer [Bionic Commando]
Phoenix Wright [Ace Attorney]
Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
Viewtiful Joe [Viewtiful Joe]
Amaterasu [Okami]
Mike Haggar [Final Fight]
Strider Hiryu [Strider]
Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
Firebrand [Gargoyle’s Quest]
Zero [Mega Man X]

ALL good and acceptable possibilities.

Frank West is getting in since he’s literally the last Capcom rep people would expect
The last Capcom rep people would expect is Momotaro from Pirate Ship Higemaru!
 
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BlueMonk

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Messages
2,242
That depends on how different the Echo is to the original. Chrom, Lucina, and especially Ken all differ enough from their original counterparts to need more fine tuned balancing. It may be easier to balance them overall than a full character, but there's still plenty of work that goes into making them work properly. Not to mention, almost all of the ideas surrounding Echoes seems to be more on the Chrom side of things as opposed to the Richter side. People want characters to be more unique.



Once again, bringing up the excitement of the Mii costume is a horrible false equivalency given his specific set of circumstances that literally no Echo will even come close to. The success of Sans is specific to that character, much as the success of other additions to Smash would be because of the character that people are interested in and very few of the Echoes even provide the opportunity for recognition, let alone hype. I don't think people will be outraged (I mean, some will because this is still Smash and I do think putting development resources towards Echoes is a more legitimate thing to take issue with), but I do think on the whole people will be more apathetic about their inclusion and they are never going to be able to even achieve a portion of the hype that is critical to post game support that full newcomers will.

I mean, the options you're giving for Echoes reek of padding the roster with mid-effort clones. Kasumi has yet to be proven as a character on her own merit/people are probably not going to be super excited about another Persona 5 character. Street Fighter is already the third party series with arguably the most representation in the game, so I'm sure just padding out the Shoto clones even more will not go over well. 4 Marths? How about 4 Ryus? (and Evil Ryu would be as bad if not worse than Dark Pit I feel like). Zack Fair isn't exactly some beloved icon in his own right either as mostly just an extended FF7 lore type character.

All these characters just serve the purpose of appealing to existing niches and don't really have extended excitement factor. They lose their value substantially when presented on their own without a larger base roster to back them up. They only kind of work if you present with another character... but at that point, why are you throwing additional resources behind a character you know is just kind an addendum as opposed to its own marquee thing? I just don't see Nintendo jumping on the idea of Echoes. Yes, they are inherently cheaper to produce, but they are less profitable (you would have to sell them for less than a full fighter AND they're less attractive to the consumer as glorified alternate costumes), fundamentally cannot achieve any expansion into new universes, more or less have to be B-tier and below characters in terms of popularity and recognition, and don't satisfy much fan demand. I just don't see any reason for them to really bring enough benefit to take any amount of resources away from full characters at this point. They were an elegant solution to a problem exclusive to the base roster, now they would function as inelegant padding given that time, money, and priority are not the problems they were for base game.
Considering I've seen quite a few requests for DLC alt costumes and even an echo pass, I don't think the reception towards echoes would be nearly as apathetic as you say it would be. Other fighting games pump out DLC costumes all the time and they make plenty of money.
 

SNEKeater

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 4, 2019
Messages
152
I don't think anyone is sleeping in Amaterasu's chances, mostly because Ammy has 0% to enter.
And as I said in some messages I love Ammy, I would love her in Smash but she has no chance against Resident Evil, Devil May Cry and Phoenix Wright.

I didn't include Monster Hunter because I consider the Rathalos presence in the base game as a soft deconfirmation for a MH character.

Resident Evil has a lot in its corner, but I'm a little iffy given Proto Man and Zero had their Mii costumes released alongside Banjo, when it feels like it would be a better idea to sell all of the previous Capcom costumes alongside a Capcom character. After all, Tails and Knuckles had their costumes sold alongside fellow Sega character Joker (granted, Akira and Jacky weren't sold alongside Joker, but hindsight does say it would make more sense to bring those costumes back for Terry's release).

Then again, Geno and Chocobo weren't sold alongside Hero, so who knows what could be happening.
I don't think the costumes from Megaman nulifies the chances for a Capcom rep. Maybe for the last remaining character, but for wave 2 I think a Capcom character is a lock, honestly.
 

DarthEnderX

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Nov 10, 2014
Messages
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To be fair Ness doesn't even learn Pk Starstorm in Earthbound, but it's Poo.
Sure, but even if they do the group thing for Ninten, NONE of the Mother 1 characters know Starstorm.

That said, I don't think it matters. Simon has a bunch of Richter's moves that he never had. It's fine if Ninten has Starstorm too.

I'm about to get s**t on, but I feel like Geno fans want him in just because of nostalgia.
Well, yeah. That's pretty much why I want ALL of my characters.

His projectiles are different from Mii Gunner's, the only moves the Gunner has that sort-of match one of Geno's moves is up-air and side-smash, but even then they're not the same.
Well, sure, but you could say the same thing about Sans. The Gunner's FS is the only thing that really resembles one of Sans's moves(which, I'm still disappointed that the two little blasters don't ALSO look like GasterBlasters).

The fact that Geno is a little guy with a gun arm makes him a pretty good fit for the Mii Gunner, regardless of the specific projectiles he throws out.
 
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Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
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Sure, but even if they do the group thing for Ninten, NONE of the Mother 1 characters know Starstorm.

That said, I don't think it matters. Simon has a bunch of Richter's moves that he never had. It's fine if Ninten has Starstorm too.
Ninten was taught how to use the Satsui no Hado by Violent Ken which is why his final smash is Monado Purge
 
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