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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Wunderwaft

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I was just saying it would be difficult to adapt Tekken's 3D gameplay to Smash unlike Street Fighter or King of Fighters, both of which are 2D fighting games. So, instead of including Tekken, he'd include Tales of, which is a pretty easy conversion, or Dark Souls, which could have some unique integration into Smash.
That's..... not how Sakurai works at all. If he wanted to add a Tekken rep in the first place it would be BECAUSE it's Tekken and not to fill a Bandai Namco quota. Likewise if he wanted to add Tales or Dark Souls it would be because he wanted to add Tales or Dark Souls. If Sakurai can't find a way to make a Tekken character work then that doesn't mean he's gonna go to the next best Bandai Namco IP.
 

Nemuresu

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Except I didn't say that at all. I was talking about other Namco characters, and you misconstrued my point.

I was just saying it would be difficult to adapt Tekken's 3D gameplay to Smash unlike Street Fighter or King of Fighters, both of which are 2D fighting games. So, instead of including Tekken, he'd include Tales of, which is a pretty easy conversion, or Dark Souls, which could have some unique integration into Smash.

Such as?

A claim like that begs to be backed up.
Oh, so you weren't even talking about fighting games? Apologies then.

That said, I don't know why you even suggest that Tales or Dark Souls could offer a "relatively same effect" as just as Tekken, since most third-party characters can pulll the "hype everyone up" card, but just because they can do, doesn't mean the appeal to the same crowd. I know there's a general audience who just wants another Namco characters, but at the same time, there's people who want specific characters and franchises. Chosen Undead is not suddenly going to make eveyone stop asking for Heihachi or Lloyd, Hero didn't make everyone stop asking for Sora or Geno, people still ask for Steve and Master Chief despite Banjo's inclusion and so on.

The only real compesations towards rejected characters are Mii costumes, as Sakurai confessed to be the case for Sans and Geno. Playable characters don't work like that.
 

Roberk

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While Tekken is Namco's biggest franchise, Sakurai already stated that he'd have trouble implementing a rep from it (Heihachi) as a fighter. Sakurai can possibly work around this like he has with other characters in the past, but in the status quo a Tekken character "can't be properly implemented". I'd also like to see a rep from Tales of, Dark Souls, or Xenosaga (KOS-MOS) instead of a Tekken character, options from those franchises just seem more interesting to me and have as much appeal/worth as Tekken or more for being a DLC character.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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That's..... not how Sakurai works at all. If he wanted to add a Tekken rep in the first place it would be BECAUSE it's Tekken and not to fill a Bandai Namco quota. Likewise if he wanted to add Tales or Dark Souls it would be because he wanted to add Tales or Dark Souls. If Sakurai can't find a way to make a Tekken character work then that doesn't mean he's gonna go to the next best Bandai Namco IP.
You're arguing semantics at this point.

The point is Sakurai might not see it necessary to put in the effort to work out a moveset for a Tekken character that's faithful to the source material and would, instead, go towards another series. I'm arguing Namco given how he'd be working with them for Tekken and could instead go for another Namco property, but he could go with any other company or series.
 

GoodGrief741

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Such as?

A claim like that begs to be backed up.
Curious to wonder why you didn't consider Dark Souls, considering it is one of Bamco's biggest, if not the biggest non-Tekken franchise.
Dark Souls I think has a gameplay style that doesn't translate well at all to Smash. We're talking about slow, defensive, sluggish movement in a fast-paced all-heights slobberknocker. Plus the fact that the main character is a generic avatar without iconic factor, and I just can't see it happening. However a stage or a boss I could see happening (and I think would be better representations of what makes DS special)

Katamari sadly I can't see translating well to playable either, though I'd love to be proven wrong. I think the Prince would make a great AT.

As for other series, KOS-MOS is too obscure and Digimon is more famous for its animes than its games so I don't think Sakurai would consider them.
 
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Dr. Jojo Phantasma

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While Tekken is Namco's biggest franchise, Sakurai already stated that he'd have trouble implementing a rep from it (Heihachi) as a fighter. Sakurai can possibly work around this like he has with other characters in the past, but in the status quo a Tekken character "can't be properly implemented". I'd also like to see a rep from Tales of, Dark Souls, or Xenosaga (KOS-MOS) instead of a Tekken character, options from those franchises just seem more interesting to me and have as much appeal/worth as Tekken or more for being a DLC character.
Yeah, personally I think Heihachi is pretty boring gameplay wise, so if we had to get a Tekken character I prefer to see Jin and Kazuya with their devil abilities, but that's not going to happen as Heihachi is the face of Tekken. So hopefully another Namco series gets used.
 

Hadokeyblade

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I'm mixed on the idea of having Tekken in Smash because I understand that it's a franchise that's earned it's place in gaming hall of fame, there's no disputing that.

But I've personally never been able to get into these games and I don't really like the characters in them that much, as far as fighting game casts go they are the most boring to me.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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Dark Souls I think has a gameplay style that doesn't translate well at all to Smash. We're talking about slow, defensive, sluggish movement in a fast-paced all-heights slobberknocker. Plus the fact that the main character is a generic avatar without iconic factor, and I just can't see it happening. However a stage or a boss I could see happening (and I think would be better representations of what makes DS special)

Katamari sadly I can't see translating well to playable either, though I'd love to be proven wrong. I think the Prince would make a great AT.

As for other series, KOS-MOS is too obscure and Digimon is more famous for its animes than its games so I don't think Sakurai would consider them.
I'll concede the point about Dark Souls' gameplay, but I don't believe it's that difficult of a translation. In terms of the MC, both Mii Fighters and Villager are pretty generic avatars without "iconic factor," which seems like a rather arbitrary point for or against.

I don't think anyone's arguing Katamari. At least I'm not. He would make a bomb AT though. KOS-MOS could sneak in due to her ties with the Xeno series (with her appearing in XC2), and seems to be a go-to for Namco crossovers (like Project X Zone). Digimon's popularity as a multimedia franchise could actually be seen as a point in its favor, but the fact is that the games came out before the anime (origin status as digital pets notwithstanding). It's like saying the Pokémon anime is more popular than the games so Pikachu can't get in Smash.

It seems like a lot of this comes down to a matter of interpretation rather than evidence pointing towards anything.
 
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shinhed-echi

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In my humble opinion, Namco franchises offer:

Fighting character (Tekken)
Fighting character with weapons (Soul Calibur)
JRPG character (Xenosaga)
RPG character (Dark Souls)
JRPG character (Lloyd)


My non-biased stance says Dark Souls sounds like the most unique representation. Although I know nothing from it.
But I also lean a bit on Xenosaga because KOS-MOS looks unique as heck.

My biased stance says Soul Calibur should get a representative, because it's both a 3D fighter, and they use melee weapons. That's pretty unique. Nightmare sounds like an excellent choice because it's another heavy sword character (think Ganondorf's smash attacks but for the whole moveset).
My SUPER biased stance says Sophitia should be the one... But that's not happening as she's got like a dozen of equally important characters, none of them as important as Nightmare, Mitsurugi, or Sigfried.


I like Namco, but there isn't a character that I would like LOVE to see included. Anything's fine for me, tbh. As long as it's fun.
 

Aetheri

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Why have Heihachi for Tekken when you can have Yoshimitsu for Tekken and Soul Calibur?

Two birds one stone!!
 

Nemuresu

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Why have Heihachi for Tekken when you can have Yoshimitsu for Tekken and Soul Calibur?

Two birds one stone!!
The issue whenever I see this idea is that Yoshimitsu isn't really popular or iconic, and that's where things go south with him. He isn't appealing to any crowd other than the sole idea of having two franchises represented in one character, and while I can't make claims, I honestly think people would rather just have Heihachi and Nightmare/Sigfried/Ivy/whatever other SC character and pay the 12 bucks.
 

Aetheri

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Well if we wanna be technical then Heihachi has appeared in both series as a fighter :4pacman:
Yeah but Heihachi doesn't bounce on his (non-existent) sword and commit seppuku as an attack.
 
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Why have Heihachi for Tekken when you can have Yoshimitsu for Tekken and Soul Calibur?

Two birds one stone!!
I've seen a good amount of people say this, but considering Terry seems to be repping for only Fatal Fury, it's unlikely that Yoshimitsu would rep 2 series in Smash.
 

GoodGrief741

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I'll concede the point about Dark Souls' gameplay, but I don't believe it's that difficult of a translation. In terms of the MC, both Mii Fighters and Villager are pretty generic avatars without "iconic factor," which seems like a rather arbitrary point for or against.

I don't think anyone's arguing Katamari. At least I'm not. He would make a bomb AT though. KOS-MOS could sneak in due to her ties with the Xeno series (with her appearing in XC2), and seems to be a go-to for Namco crossovers (like Project X Zone). Digimon's popularity as a multimedia franchise could actually be seen as a point in its favor, but the fact is that the games came out before the anime (origin status as digital pets notwithstanding). It's like saying the Pokémon anime is more popular than the games so Pikachu can't get in Smash.

It seems like a lot of this comes down to a matter of interpretation rather than evidence pointing towards anything.
The iconic factor seems to play much larger a role in third parties, however. Plus, Miis are iconic, and even Villager you can recognize due to AC's distinctive art style. I don't think Dark Souls has that, main characters usually look kind of like generic knights (contrast with, say, Commander Shepard and Dovahkiin's iconic default designs, or even Monster Hunter's more idiosyncratic armors).

KOS-MOS I consider something akin to Morrigan for Capcom. Yes, she's in crossovers, but they're in no hurry to actually do anything with her IP and despite Namco's willingness to put her in stuff I don't see Nintendo approaching them for her.

Let's agree to disagree on Digimon.

And yes, obviously this is not evidence, just my opinion!
 

Michael the Spikester

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If we do get a Namco rep though and knowing how Sakurai likes to surprise us with sleeper/out there picks it wouldn't be out of the question for the Namco rep to be an Dark Souls character.

KOS-MOS is also another that comes to mind.
 

lady_sky skipper

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You know if by a miracle Nintendo does have an Aero Fighters rep in Smash it's possible that it may be Hien or Mao Mao seeing as they're the flagship characters of the series. (Or at least Spanky because he's a dolphin pilot.) Other than that who do you think would be a good shmup rep for Smash Ultimate if you're interested in seeing one?
 

Wunderwaft

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Anyways, the discussion for Heihachi seems to ultimately devolve into two sides. Those who believe Heihachi can work in Smash and those who think he can't. It really gives me the feeling of a certain purple xenomorph dragon.

After seeing all the crazy and wacky additions to Smash, I really don't think Heihachi is off-limits due to complexity in moveset. I still think the fact that Heihachi was one of the first choices for a Bandai Namco rep alongside Pac-Man is a good enough reason to consider him a front-runner for the company. It's possible that Sakurai changed his mind on the old man, and it's also possible he didn't. We just don't know his current thoughts about Heihachi since his decision is very old and dates back to the initial project plan for Smash 4.

Either way I think Heihachi would be a cool addition to the roster. Tekken is a very fun fighting game series that made a huge impact on the industry. Not to mention that Heihachi himself is an evil old man with lightning powers and martial arts. Both of these things makes him a wonderful newcomer in my book.
 

TennisBall

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Why have Heihachi for Tekken when you can have Yoshimitsu for Tekken and Soul Calibur?

Two birds one stone!!
Representing two series with one character can be tricky because it can seriously scam series' icons out of a spot for the sake of representation. Under these pretenses, you could have Professor E.Gadd instead of Luigi or Olimar as he appears in a game where both characters appear.* Obviously, this is a far-fetched example but the idea is still somewhat in tact.
Edit*:Researched Superstar and turns out Olimar was an idea but was never actually added, the point still stands but the example does not.
 
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Roberk

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Also, I feel like people sleep on KOS-MOS. Certainly a unique rep both in moveset and design, and while she’s a third party she’s heavily affiliated with Nintendo through MonolithSoft and even made an appearance recently in XC2. Not super likely, but I’d keep an eye out for her.
 

GoodGrief741

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You know if by a miracle Nintendo does have an Aero Fighters rep in Smash it's possible that it may be Hien or Mao Mao seeing as they're the flagship characters of the series. (Or at least Spanky because he's a dolphin pilot.) Other than that who do you think would be a good shmup rep for Smash Ultimate if you're interested in seeing one?
I'm not familiar with this series, can you fill me in?
 

IAmGiles

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The iconic factor seems to play much larger a role in third parties, however. Plus, Miis are iconic, and even Villager you can recognize due to AC's distinctive art style. I don't think Dark Souls has that, main characters usually look kind of like generic knights (contrast with, say, Commander Shepard and Dovahkiin's iconic default designs, or even Monster Hunter's more idiosyncratic armors).
I agree that dark souls protags lack a distinctive look (unless you count The Ashen One being made of literal ash, which would looks sick as hell imo).

However, that lack of a distinctive looks is purely a product of the game allowing the player dozens of armor choices that are distinctive in their own rights. An easy fix to the problem of a lack of iconic protag is to simply make each skin a different suit of armor that is iconic in the games (an idea I pitched a couple posts back).

If they chose the eight most iconic armors: off the top of my head, cover art armor (can't think of the name but it's worn by Oscar who gives you the Estus Flask), Black Knight Armor, Artorius, Solaire, Ornstein, Siegmeyer, Nameless King, Havel. If they chose these armors as skins each one individually is both iconic in its own right and immediately recognizable as a Dark Souls armor set. It would also have the added benefit of being canonically appropriate since the Ashen One/Chosen Undead can actually find and wear each of these armor sets in the game itself.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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Yoshimitsu isn't really popular or iconic
...Yes he is.
Representing two series with one character can be tricky because it can seriously scam series' icons out of a spot for the sake of representation.
Series icons don't have a right to be in smash. They're not getting scammed out of anything, because they don't have a claim to it in the first place.

Yoshimitsu repping two series is an excuse to put a cooler character in smash. I.e., the calculus is: cooler character, reps two series vs less cool character, reps one series, is a "main character" of said series.
 
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lady_sky skipper

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I'm not familiar with this series, can you fill me in?
Aero Fighters/Sonic Wings is a vertical shmup created by Video System and now owned by Hamster famous for it's wacky characters and bosses and Engrish-style quotes that had 5 games in the series. The first one was ported onto the Super NES while the other two were on the Neo Geo system. Sonic Wings Special/Limited was a remix game that never came to the US and Aero Fighters Assault was the final game that took a radically different direction by being a 3D action flight sim for the Nintendo 64.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Dark Souls I think has a gameplay style that doesn't translate well at all to Smash. We're talking about slow, defensive, sluggish movement in a fast-paced all-heights slobberknocker. Plus the fact that the main character is a generic avatar without iconic factor, and I just can't see it happening. However a stage or a boss I could see happening (and I think would be better representations of what makes DS special)

Katamari sadly I can't see translating well to playable either, though I'd love to be proven wrong. I think the Prince would make a great AT.

As for other series, KOS-MOS is too obscure and Digimon is more famous for its animes than its games so I don't think Sakurai would consider them.
The beauty of Dark Souls is that your movement is actually all that sluggish, it's just intentional and committal. Dark Souls combat can actually be pretty damn quick depending on your build (lower equip loads mean that you can roll and sprint like mad, and is by far my preferred way to play since I-frames > blocking almost every time). No, Dark Souls is about playing smart and knowing your limits so that you can best work within them. Plenty of bosses and enemies come at you with incredible speed, but it's about knowing how to confront them and how not to overextend yourself in those moments. Dark Souls translates to Smash just fine with that in mind.

Not to mention, Dark Souls gets progressively faster in its combat from 1 to 3, so this also becomes even less of a worry. As for the "generic main character," just use the infinitely more popular Solaire and forego the usual rules in favor of a beloved named character that already has an Amiibo. That specific representation problem solves itself quite quickly.
 
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StormC

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So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
 

Michael the Spikester

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So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
I don't doubt he could be among the DLC beyond this season pass but I'm feeling the 5th one will be Doom Slayer given Doom Eternal's release in November and Terry coming out at that time and then Doom Slayer's release being announced at the VGA. Timing be perfect if true.
 
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Aetheri

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So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
He's definitely on the shortlist. Tecmo is one of the bigger (japanese) companies that has yet to have a fighter in the roster, especially considering they already have content in Smash already.

Would rather they pick Crash personally, as far as third parties are concerned, he would round out the Fighter's Pass nicely imo. Doomslayer would be my number 2 pick since Bethesda is being really generous with the Switch thus far.
 

perfectchaos83

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So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
No character is ever a guarantee.

I don't doubt he could be among the DLC beyond this season pass but I'm feeling the 5th one will be Doom Slayer given Doom Eternal's release in November and Terry coming out at that time and then Doom Slayer's release being announced at the VGA. Timing be perfect if true.
Just like how Hero released with DQXI.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Not gonna lie folks, Kai's posts look like I'm looking into a mirror and seeing myself when I was 12 and that makes me a little uncomfortable.

So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
What gives you that impression?
 

Nemuresu

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So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
I just know that the last character will be third-party, but that's something I already saw coming all the way back to Joker.
 

perfectchaos83

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Granted by no means I'm saying its certain and a lock because I will admit I could be wrong about this but I decided to throw the bone and go with this prediction.
I just think the justification is weak considering Smash has never had reveals surrounding game announcements or releases and I really don't see that changing now.
 

Idon

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I just think the justification is weak considering Smash has never had reveals surrounding game announcements or releases and I really don't see that changing now.
For E3, the trailer for Hero was literally followed by another trailer for DQ11S. Nintendo is at the very least clearly aware of game releases and it'd make sense from a business standpoint to cross-promote if they were related.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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So has everyone come to terms with the fact that Ryu Hayabusa will absolutely positively definitely be the final character

of season 1?
Likely? Yes.

Positively definitely happening? No.

There's a good couple of characters contending for that final spot.
 
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