Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[DaybreakHorizon]

So the issue is the sheer number of parties involved in Final Fantasy content rather than Square Enix themselves?

Exactly.

Conflating the two is what leads to misunderstandings like "Square Enix is stingy and fueled by nothing but corporate greed."

 

[StormC]

Exactly.

Conflating the two is what leads to misunderstandings like "Square Enix is stingy and fueled by nothing but corporate greed."

Well.

Corporations certainly don't do things out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Well.

Corporations certainly don't do things out of the goodness of their hearts.

But they're not a shameless, corporate shill company like people here make them out to be.

 

[7NATOR]

Weird Question guys, but You know how Banjo and Hero were teased in that Stage Builder Section back in Joker's Release video.

Is there perhaps a hint we missed when it came to Terry, Not counting the accidental leak

 

[Idon]

Weird Question guys, but You know how Banjo and Hero were teased in that Stage Builder Section back in Joker's Release video.

Is there perhaps a hint we missed when it came to Terry, Not counting the accidental leak

Well considering Sakurai said that HRC was "probably the last smash gamemode added" I kinda doubt it. He might do something for DLC6 and beyond, but uh... DLC4 and 5 seem like they're relatively done.

 

[7NATOR]

Well considering Sakurai said that HRC was "probably the last smash gamemode added" I kinda doubt it. He might do something for DLC6 and beyond, but uh... DLC4 and 5 seem like they're relatively done.

NOO, I didn't mean modes

I meant in terms of was there a hint to Terry before he was revealed, Like there was a hint to Banjo and Hero in Stage Builder

 

[Idon]

NOO, I didn't mean modes

I meant in terms of was there a hint to Terry before he was revealed, Like there was a hint to Banjo and Hero in Stage Builder

Ah, then I still kinda doubt it.

it's not like there's any place to sneak in hints consider 90% of the trailer was an SNK love-letter, with the final 10% being a teaser to Terry's close-up.

There was that short gameplay glimpse, but I can't find anything beyond Terry decking Marth in the face in front of Ryo.

 

[tenworldsguy]

Weird Question guys, but You know how Banjo and Hero were teased in that Stage Builder Section back in Joker's Release video.

Is there perhaps a hint we missed when it came to Terry, Not counting the accidental leak

If we really want to stretch and hope, Ness being used as the first character could be a tease towards Porky. But that's stretching it far, even by smash stretching-and-hoping speculation's standards.

Spoiler

suddenly that sakurai said that there'd be more fighters, people suddenly jump to "spirits deconfirm", x spirit is last fighter on the pass for sure despite the evidence?

 

[osby]

I think adding a character from a Switch exclusive Nintendo franchise/IP would be a pretty good way of throwing fans a bone while attracting a new audience at the same time?

But rest of the DLC being first/second party for the sake of it? That'd be a huge missed opportunity.


Also ffs, why there are people who claim every "anime" character has the same artstyle but a twentieth Mario-verse character would be unique?

 

[Ben Holt]

I agree with you on all of this.
The one thing I do not think you are considering is that the next smash is unlikely to just continue from the base roster.
The next smash is going to reset. I think its pretty clear at this point that, third parties removed entirely, the roster of Nintendo characters alone is not sustainable in Smash bros. In fact, after the hype of the third parties now, I think we are completely guaranteed a reboot afterward. It is the only possibility after the climax.

People said that after Brawl.
Smash will never be Nintendo only again.
There will always be one greater.
"Once in a lifetime" is nothing but a marketing phrase to pump out sales.
Snake in Brawl was described as a "once in a lifetime" fighter, and now we've had him twice.
In fact, had it not been for the timing of Smash 4 (Kojima and Konami's fallout along with Konami's image as a whole at the time), I guarantee Snake would have been playable in that too.

 

[---]

Let's save the Smash 7 roster reset talk until development of this game finishes; it's also off-topic. Not having to worry about cuts this time is a pretty nice state of mind to have. Let's not blow it by getting ahead of ourselves or Sakurai.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

People said that after Brawl.
Smash will never be Nintendo only again.
There will always be one greater.
"Once in a lifetime" is nothing but a marketing phrase to pump out sales.
Snake in Brawl was described as a "once in a lifetime" fighter, and now we've had him twice.
In fact, had it not been for the timing of Smash 4 (Kojima and Konami's fallout along with Konami's image as a whole at the time), I guarantee Snake would have been playable in that too.

I mean, there's marketing language, and then there's the legal mess that Smash has become.

No game, or piece of media in general that I know of, has as many companies collaborating in an official manner. Attaining the rights to every character again is an incredibly tall order.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Also I'm pretty sure SE does a weird thing with FF where they give composers the rights to their own music.

Which is actually the opposite of stingy.

I'm pretty sure that's false. Uematsu and the other composers are never listed in the copyright for FF music. I checked Smash and some soundtracks I have and everything is copyrighted to Square Enix Co. Ltd.. The only person otherwise mentioned in the legal stuff is Amano for FF logo art.

There's also the fact Uematsu wanted to name an album of his Dancing Mad, after the song in FFVI, only for Square Enix to tell him no. Wouldn't call that retaining the rights.

 

[Ben Holt]

I mean, there's marketing language, and then there's the legal mess that Smash has become.

No game, or piece of media in general that I know of, has as many companies collaborating in an official manner. Attaining the rights to every character again is an incredibly tall order.

Wreck-It Ralph. **** ton of cameos.
Guitar Hero had to work with dozens or artists when it was around. Same with Rock Band.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think adding a character from a Switch exclusive Nintendo franchise/IP would be a pretty good way of throwing fans a bone while attracting a new audience at the same time?

But rest of the DLC being first/second party for the sake of it? That'd be a huge missed opportunity.


Also ffs, why there are people who claim every "anime" character has the same artstyle but a twentieth Mario-verse character would be unique?

I wouldn't call having all characters after the Fighter Pass be first-party a missed opportunity, I'd call it evening the odds.

I think a good mix is the way to go but that sure ain't what we're getting right now.

 

[Renjamin]

Also ffs, why there are people who claim every "anime" character has the same artstyle but a twentieth Mario-verse character would be unique?

To be fair Mario characters aren't limited to realistic proportions or useing the same weapon or even being human , I disagree with people saying all Anime characters look the same but comparing it Mario is a false equivalency.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Wreck-It Ralph. **** ton of cameos.
Guitar Hero had to work with dozens or artists when it was around. Same with Rock Band.

That I know of.

Furthermore,
A). Cameos are a completely different thing and are easier to obtain than fully fledged playable characters, stages, spirits, etc.
and
B). That doesn't really answer the fact that Smash has a large amount of licenses that they would have to get back in a subsequent game if going for all veterans again. It's easy to build on the base, but from this point on that "base" is only going to grow larger until it's a borderline nightmare to negotiate for everything again.

 

[Ben Holt]

That I know of.

Furthermore,
A). Cameos are a completely different thing and are easier to obtain than fully fledged playable characters, stages, spirits, etc.
and
B). That doesn't really answer the fact that Smash has a large amount of licenses that they would have to get back in a subsequent game if going for all veterans again. It's easy to build on the base, but from this point on that "base" is only going to grow larger until it's a borderline nightmare to negotiate for everything again.

I guaran-damn-tee that Sakurai and Nintendo are either negotiating for Smash 6 right now, or more likely, have negotiated long-term agreements for future Smash games.
Smash is here to stay, and Nintendo is under no illusion that Smash is not here to stay for decades.

 

[Cycrum]

I wouldn't call having all characters after the Fighter Pass be first-party a missed opportunity, I'd call it evening the odds.

I think a good mix is the way to go but that sure ain't what we're getting right now.

To be honest, having more first-party characters would be a missed opportunity to attract even more crowds to Super Smash Bros. Adding first-party characters wouldn't exactly add new crowds but instead keep people who are already fans of the game excited. I completely understand why Samurai would add mostly third-party characters to Smash; they garner the most excitement out of people unfamiliar to Smash, thus increasing the potential audience and increasing overall sales even more.

 

[Ben Holt]

In my ideal world, Smash would be 50% Nintendo IPs and 50% Third Party All-Stars.
It's like a hall of fame for video games.

 

[osby]

I mean, there's marketing language, and then there's the legal mess that Smash has become.

No game, or piece of media in general that I know of, has as many companies collaborating in an official manner. Attaining the rights to every character again is an incredibly tall order.

There's no way next Smash can bring back all the third parties, but there's a huge difference between "some guests won't be returning" and "it'll be all Nintendo again".

For some reason, a lot of people seem to think the latter is more likely.

 

[GoodGrief741]

To be honest, having more first-party characters would be a missed opportunity to attract even more crowds to Super Smash Bros. Adding first-party characters wouldn't exactly add new crowds but instead keep people who are already fans of the game excited. I completely understand why Samurai would add mostly third-party characters to Smash; they garner the most excitement out of people unfamiliar to Smash, thus increasing the potential audience and increasing overall sales even more.

I don't think capturing new crowds is that big a goal as it's been made out to be.

Sure, there's Joker. But then we have the perennially aligned with Nintendo Dragon Quest, the homecoming Nintendo mascot Banjo, and the console-agnostic but very Nintendo supportive SNK. I don't really see how these characters are making people buy Switches or copies of Smash. I mean, the audiences for these characters aren't that different from the ones for some characters already in.

 

[Cycrum]

I don't think capturing new crowds is that big a goal as it's been made out to be.

Sure, there's Joker. But then we have the perennially aligned with Nintendo Dragon Quest, the homecoming Nintendo mascot Banjo, and the console-agnostic but very Nintendo supportive SNK. I don't really see how these characters are making people buy Switches or copies of Smash. I mean, the audiences for these characters aren't that different from the ones for some characters already in.

That's fair. I suppose a better way of thinking about it is that Samurai wants make Smash a "living museum." It may sound oxymoronic, but having as many significant video game franchise in Smash as possible does seem to be his goal, which helps accomplish his goals of pleasing as many fans as possible and bringing in as many world's as possible.

 

[Renjamin]

While I vastly prefer most of the first parties, I'm not Supreme dictator of the universe (yet) so I accept that not every decision is for me and understand third parties have their place but I keep seeing people say that they shouldn't add more First party's as the can't appeal to new audiences and it really annoys me, last I checked when you buy a Switch you are not held at gunpoint by Sakurai until you buy Smash. In fact SSBU sold 12.08 million copies meanwhile the Nintendo Switch sold 36.87 million copies and though it might not seem it when it's just words on a random forum post 24.79 million people might not seem like that much but it is quite a lot and that's only the Switches sales not taking into account Nintendo fans who haven't yet bought one for budgetary reasons or just because their favorite franchise is represented on it yet so to say that they're limiting appeal is laughable.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I guaran-damn-tee that Sakurai and Nintendo are either negotiating for Smash 6 right now, or more likely, have negotiated long-term agreements for future Smash games.
Smash is here to stay, and Nintendo is under no illusion that Smash is not here to stay for decades.

I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want, but there's a reason Sakurai keeps talking about how difficult it's been to get every character in this game, and how another Smash like this likely isn't happening.

You'd really be surprised at how businesses act man. It's not that easy most of the time, otherwise Spider-Man would still be in the MCU.

While I vastly prefer most of the first parties, I'm not Supreme dictator of the universe (yet) so I accept that not every decision is for me and understand third parties have their place but I keep seeing people say that they shouldn't add more First party's as the can't appeal to new audiences and it really annoys me, last I checked when you buy a Switch you are not held at gunpoint by Sakurai until you buy Smash. In fact SSBU sold 12.08 million copies meanwhile the Nintendo Switch sold 36.87 million copies and though it might not seem it when it's just words on a random forum post 24.79 million people might not seem like that much but it is quite a lot and that's only the Switches sales not taking into account Nintendo fans who haven't yet bought one for budgetary reasons or just because their favorite franchise is represented on it yet so to say that they're limiting appeal is laughable.

Holy mother of run-on sentences.

You really need some periods, commas, or line spacing to break up this absolute monster of two run-on sentences a paragraph.

Certain first party characters certainly have their place being added (see: Isabelle, even though she wasn't a concession for casual fans if I recall correctly), but most times you're going to draw in more people with a third party character than, say, Bandana Dee, whose fanbase consists mostly of core Nintendo fans who have most-likely purchased Kirby and Smash games. Furthermore, no first party outside of a choice few will be able to top the mass amount of hype generated by a third party character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Remember everyone, Nintendo has gotten licenses from Disney before. Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 was published by Nintendo and I imagine the cost of licensing Sora is penny's compare to getting the Marvel license.

To be honest, I don't think getting the license from Disney is the real issue here.

I think the REAL issue with Sora is...Nintendo might not even consider him a video game character. Which is the only "rule" that I think still holds in Smash.

I'll use another character as an example, Android 21 from Dragon Ball FighterZ. 21 is a character that first appeared, was created for, a video game. But 21 still wouldn't count as a video game character, because she's still a Dragon Ball character. And Dragon Ball is originally a manga property.

Sora's situation MIGHT be considered the same by Nintendo. Yes, Sora is an original character created for the video game series Kingdom Hearts. But a lot of what Kingdom Hearts is, is an adaptation of Disney movies and cartoons. And whether Nintendo considers KHs an original video game series, or an extension of Disney's movies/cartoons, would determine whether Nintendo even considers Sora to be a video game character, or just an adaptation original character like Android 21.

 

[Ezclapper]

To be honest, I don't think getting the license from Disney is the real issue here.

I think the REAL issue with Sora is...Nintendo might not even consider him a video game character. Which is the only "rule" that I think still holds in Smash.

I'll use another character as an example, Android 21 from Dragon Ball FighterZ. 21 is a character that first appeared, was created for, a video game. But Android 21 still wouldn't count as a video game character, because she's still a Dragon Ball character. And Dragon Ball is a manga/anime property first.

Sora's situation MIGHT be considered the same by Nintendo. Yes, Sora is an original character created for the video game series Kingdom Hearts. But a lot of what Kingdom Hearts is, is an adaptation of Disney movies and cartoons. And whether Nintendo considers KHs an original video game series, or an extension of Disney's movies/cartoons, would determine whether Nintendo even considers Sora to be a video game character, or just an adaptation original character like Android 21.

If Sora isn't a video game character, then please tell me what he is, i'm interested. :thonk

 

[Idon]

Listen, I have so so many first party characters I want, whom I could write entire essays on why they belong in a crossover with other Nintendo all-stars and how some could easily be argued to be more important or relevant than many of the characters already in the roster.

But I'm not so dumb as to believe anything that's first party is even going to come remotely close to the shock and excitement in most people when they see "oh my god, it's X from Y series, I totally never expected this to happen!!!!" and such.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If Sora isn't a video game character, then please tell me what he is, i'm interested.

I thought my Android 21 example was pretty clear.

Yes, he is still a character from a video game. But if that game is an adaptation of something that wasn't originally a video game, you ain't getting in Smash. It all depends on whether Nintendo considers KHs to be an original video game, or just an adaptation of Disney properties.

Porky isn't really a fan demand as much as it is people acting like he's the only spiritless Nintendo character.

I just want his Boss battle back.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I wouldn't call having all characters after the Fighter Pass be first-party a missed opportunity, I'd call it evening the odds.

I think a good mix is the way to go but that sure ain't what we're getting right now.

If we're going for "evening the odds," then we're going to need about 20-25 more third parties to be on equal ground with the third parties. They still don't even take up a quarter of the roster yet, so I'd say we're fine in terms of the mix.

I don't think capturing new crowds is that big a goal as it's been made out to be.

Sure, there's Joker. But then we have the perennially aligned with Nintendo Dragon Quest, the homecoming Nintendo mascot Banjo, and the console-agnostic but very Nintendo supportive SNK. I don't really see how these characters are making people buy Switches or copies of Smash. I mean, the audiences for these characters aren't that different from the ones for some characters already in.

Yeah, but there's a greater chance you rope someone in with a Terry Bogard than a Bandanna Dee, and that chance is the sort of thing Nintendo wants to go for. Expanding your customer base is always a priority with any product. The alternative is getting consumers to invest more in your existing products, which the hardcore fans are already doing and usually buying DLC, so there's not as much of a reason to go after those types of people any more. Third parties have a much greater capacity to increase the appeal of Smash than the overwhelming majority of first party IPs. Especially the IPs we have left to include at this point.

 

[Ezclapper]

I thought my Android 21 example was pretty clear.

Yes, he is still a character from a video game. But if that game is an adaptation of something that wasn't originally a video game, you ain't getting in Smash. It all depends on whether Nintendo considers KHs to be an original video game, or just an adaptation of Disney properties.

That argument doesn't affect Sora's chances at all since he IS a video game character. Period. Therefore, he can make it into smash. The only rule for being in smash is the character has to originate from a video game. You literally said in quote "I think the REAL issue with Sora is...Nintendo might not even consider him a video game character." Just because its a game with Disney characters doesn't change the fact he originated from the game KH. Android 21 is part of the Dragon ball universe as well, but she originated from a video game, hence making her a video game character. I don't see any written rules anywhere that say if a video game character is associated with characters from cartoons, movies etc, they are not getting in smash.

 

[GoodGrief741]

That's fair. I suppose a better way of thinking about it is that Samurai wants make Smash a "living museum." It may sound oxymoronic, but having as many significant video game franchise in Smash as possible does seem to be his goal, which helps accomplish his goals of pleasing as many fans as possible and bringing in as many world's as possible.

I get that and he's doing a great job so far but I hope he doesn't think Nintendo franchises aren't significant because... Well, he'd be wrong.

Yeah, but there's a greater chance you rope someone in with a Terry Bogard than a Bandanna Dee, and that chance is the sort of thing Nintendo wants to go for. Expanding your customer base is always a priority with any product. The alternative is getting consumers to invest more in your existing products, which the hardcore fans are already doing and usually buying DLC, so there's not as much of a reason to go after those types of people any more. Third parties have a much greater capacity to increase the appeal of Smash than the overwhelming majority of first party IPs. Especially the IPs we have left to include at this point.

The whole 'this would bring more people!', 'that would bring more people!' discussion is a waste of time, there's really no way to know. But honestly I think Terry's a terrible example considering how many people didn't know who he was. Sure, ignorance, but if that many people are ignorant then clearly you're not bringing in many people.

Add to that the overlap (is the audience for Street Fighter that difference from the audience for KoF?) and that just leaves way too little gained imo.

Plus, I mean, it's not like Smash needed constant crossing over to get to where it is now so to act like it needs to keep getting bigger and catchier and hype-ier is just... I dunno, it feels like EA talk to me. Smash Ultimate is literally the best selling fighting game of all time so to look at things through the lens of 'if the audience doesn't grow it's a failure' is very concerning to me.

I thought my Android 21 example was pretty clear.

Yes, he is still a character from a video game. But if that game is an adaptation of something that wasn't originally a video game, you ain't getting in Smash. It all depends on whether Nintendo considers KHs to be an original video game, or just an adaptation of Disney properties.

I just want his Boss battle back.

Kingdom Hearts isn't an adaptation of anything.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Just because its a game with Disney characters doesn't change the fact he originated from the game KH. Android 21 is part of the Dragon ball universe as well, but she originated from a video game, hence making her a video game character. I don't see any written rules anywhere that say if a video game character is associated with characters from cartoons, movies etc, they are not getting in smash.

Well you believe what you want. I don't expect to be able to change the mind of someone with a Donald Duck avatar.

But I don't think 21 is eligible, and, depending on how Nintendo views KH, Sora might not be either.

Kingdom Hearts isn't an adaptation of anything.

...have you made it past the first chapter?

 

[Renjamin]

Certain first party characters certainly have their place being added (see: Isabelle, even though she wasn't a concession for casual fans if I recall correctly), but most times you're going to draw in more people with a third party character than, say, Bandana Dee, whose fanbase consists mostly of core Nintendo fans who have most-likely purchased Kirby and Smash games.

I know that someone like Impa wouldn't spurr sales like Steve, obviously I know no one's gonna be surprised about Bandana Dee as I didn't mention any of the popular (though chronically obscure) first party choices in my post. I just find it quite annoying how seem to assume every first party is shot down in discussion as they are somehow lesser than an equally minor third party, listen I love Metal Slug as much as the next guy but I'm pretty sure even Waluigi would sell better than Marco.

But I'm not so dumb as to believe anything that's first party is even going to come remotely close to the shock and excitement in most people when they see "oh my god, it's X from Y series, I totally never expected this to happen!!!!"

King K Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, Inklings. Now you could say that these are special cases because the community built up these characters so much but that's true for every Smash character, I guarantee a fair amount of those people cheering for Terry at Nintendo N.Y hadn't ever played a KoF game but they were happy because we all got caught up in the hype thanks to the leak. (Plus if we only allow First Party characters that are highly requested we're still left with Waluigi, Issac, The Chorus Kids, ETC) Also can we refrain from calling those who disagree with us dumb? I thought we were better than that.

 

[Nquoid]

Wasn't that a rumour going around months ago that Nintendo saw the reaction to certain characters being ATs and asked Sakurai to upgrade the likes of Waluigi? I remember reading something along those lines. It might be total bunk, but if we're talking 1st party characters that would get buzz, that's pretty much the only way to go.

As for a 1st party Switch character pass, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Pokemon, Astral Chain and maybe Arms would probably make it up, but that looks like base roster additions to me, unless Astral Chain becomes the best selling game on Switch...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I get that and he's doing a great job so far but I hope he doesn't think Nintendo franchises aren't significant because... Well, he'd be wrong.

The whole 'this would bring more people!', 'that would bring more people!' discussion is a waste of time, there's really no way to know. But honestly I think Terry's a terrible example considering how many people didn't know who he was. Sure, ignorance, but if that many people are ignorant then clearly you're not bringing in many people.

Add to that the overlap (is the audience for Street Fighter that difference from the audience for KoF?) and that just leaves way too little gained imo.

Plus, I mean, it's not like Smash needed constant crossing over to get to where it is now so to act like it needs to keep getting bigger and catchier and hype-ier is just... I dunno, it feels like EA talk to me. Smash Ultimate is literally the best selling fighting game of all time so to look at things through the lens of 'if the audience doesn't grow it's a failure' is very concerning to me.


Kingdom Hearts isn't an adaptation of anything.

SNK stuff is HUGE in China and South America, which Nintendo seems to have struggled getting an audience. And trust me, China money is HUGE, China singlehandedly kept all those ****ty Transformers movies alive

My issue with Sora is that he's so closely tied to the world of Disney that I just find it very hard to imagine him without any Disney stuff surrounding him

 

[DarthEnderX]

listen I love Metal Slug as much as the next guy but I'm pretty sure even Waluigi would sell better than Marco.

That's why you need to make the Metal Slug character the tank instead of one of the soldiers! Who wouldn't want to play as a tank?

 

[Ezclapper]

...have you made it past the first chapter?

Explain to me what story KH is adapting then. lol.

 

[Nquoid]

SNK stuff is HUGE in China and South America, which Nintendo seems to have struggled getting an audience. And trust me, China money is HUGE, China singlehandedly kept all those ****ty Transformers movies alive

I mean not having a legal avenue to tap into that market until 2015 is the reason for that. It's why we're only now just seeing Nintendo make concerted pushes into that market with stuff like this.

I'll be intrigued to see whether a move like SNK in the pass and the Switch being really great bit of kit are enough to get a country so heavily invested in PC/Browser and mobile/tablet gaming to shift their habits.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean not having a legal avenue to tap into that market until 2015 is the reason for that. It's why we're only now just seeing Nintendo make concerted pushes into that market with stuff like this.

I'll be intrigued to see whether a move like SNK in the pass and the Switch being really great bit of kit are enough to get a country so heavily invested in PC/Browser and mobile/tablet gaming to shift their habits.

Nintendo has been working with Tencent for quite a while on this matter iirc (Tencent also owns SNK now funny enough iirc) and considering I saw Chinese gamers protest a game's existence for looking too similar to BotW, I'm pretty sure it'll go well