Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[venomthebest]

ok its kinda pissing me off how no one has made this connection yet. I've had this theory since like before min min, or around min min and this picture is a little outdated since sephiroth came out and genos costume was revealed but the important part of the theory still holds up true. the fact that genos costume isn't deluxe kinda points to the idea that they intended to have all the costumes in the first pass prior to the decision to make the second pass.

edit: they could totaly have a monster hunter character playable and still have the costumes and still be different characters as the costumes in smash 4 are from monster hunter 4 and they could do literaly any other armors from monster hunter world or maybe rise if they knew enough about it before hand, there are a butt ton of them.

 

[Shroob]

Yuri? Hmm... is he similar to Lloyd enough to be an alt (like the Dragon Quest Heroes)?

No clue, I'm about as far removed from the Tales of series as you can get. All I know is that Lloyd appeals to the Nintendo crowd, but Yuri would appeal to the Tales of crowd more due to his massive popularity.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yuri? Hmm... is he similar to Lloyd enough to be an alt (like the Dragon Quest Heroes)?

Lloyd's a dual wielder and while I've yet to even look at Vesperia for more than a minute, Yuri is not.

 

[GoodGrief741]

ok its kinda pissing me off how no one has made this connection yet. I've had this theory since like before min min, or around min min and this picture is a little outdated since sephiroth came out and genos costume was revealed but the important part of the theory still holds up true. the fact that genos costume isn't deluxe kinda points to the idea that they intended to have all the costumes in the first pass prior to the decision to make the second pass.

edit: they could totaly have a monster hunter character playable and still have the costumes and still be different characters as the costumes in smash 4 are from monster hunter 4 and they could do literaly any other armors from monster hunter world or maybe rise if they knew enough about it before hand, there are a butt ton of them.

"The returning costumes line up pretty well with the FP1 costumes, sans the two premium ones. This might mean that this was the original plan for Mii Costumes before FP2"

Okay, I'm following you, makes sense, could be--

"So this means that Geno is likely to be a fighter"

wait what

You uh, lost me at that step there bud. If they were planning on costuming Geno in the first Pass, and they ended up costuming him in the second, isn't the more likely outcome that he's... just a costume?

 

[SharkLord]

I am a bit behind... but why are people here talking about leaks with Chun-Li, Tails, and Lloyd? I would love all three in Smash.

There was an old 5chan leak A Ayumi Tachibana dug up relating to characters who supposedly had deals for the base game that fell through. There was Erdrick, Steve, and Sephiroth, who we already got, as well as Chun-Li and two Tales of reps, Yuri and Lloyd. Chun-Li was supposedly replaced with Ken, most likely because of time constraints, so she has some closure. Lloyd and Yuri just didn't show up. Seeing as the base game roster was finalized in 2015, I'm thinking they were pushed back to see how well Tales of Berseria would do to see if Velvet would be a viable third option (Though, as some have pointed out, it's possible that they were waiting to see how well Vesperia's Definitive Edition port would do too).

Yeah, that's right. The guy who's almost always skeptical of leaks in making a theory out of one. We truly are at the end of times.

 

[Arcadenik]

No clue, I'm about as far removed from the Tales of series as you can get. All I know is that Lloyd appeals to the Nintendo crowd, but Yuri would appeal to the Tales of crowd more due to his massive popularity.

Interesting. Maybe Sakurai can try to make it work so that Tales Of fans can have their cake and eat it like he did for the Dragon Quest fans and the Castlevania fans.

 

[venomthebest]

"The returning costumes line up pretty well with the FP1 costumes, sans the two premium ones. This might mean that this was the original plan for Mii Costumes before FP2"

Okay, I'm following you, makes sense, could be--

"So this means that Geno is likely to be a fighter"

wait what

You uh, lost me at that step there bud. If they were planning on costuming Geno in the first Pass, and they ended up costuming him in the second, isn't the more likely outcome that he's... just a costume?

you missed the part where i said this picture is a little outdated after sephiroth, what i need to do now with it is take that part off but the imortant part is that we most deffinatly will get those missing costumes and lloyd is probably in the same boat as geno. Already made as a costume and his costume was probably handpicked along with all the others to somewhat or somehow make sense to release alongside some character in fp2

 

[GoodGrief741]

you missed the part where i said this picture is a little outdated after sephiroth

Oh okay so it's just the theory part.

... Could be! I dunno, I don't think Mii Costumes are planned that far in advance. But hey, maybe they had an outline from the get-go that looked like yours and things unfolded from there.

Can you think of any conclusions that could be gleaned if your theory is true?

 

[7NATOR]

Velvet would actually fit with 201X theory, Since her game came out 2016

Didn't even Realize

 

[venomthebest]

Oh okay so it's just the theory part.

... Could be! I dunno, I don't think Mii Costumes are planned that far in advance. But hey, maybe they had an outline from the get-go that looked like yours and things unfolded from there.

Can you think of any conclusions that could be gleaned if your theory is true?

im working on several, the main one is that we can probably narrow down what "type" of character could be included in fp2 based on what mii comes with them
but I think the "bonus" fighter 11 wont have a returning mii
edit: still not sure what to think about the lloyd costume and what it could mean but im strongly leaning towards him being just a costume and not promoted. I actually don't think alot of bandai namco characters qualify to be in the grand finale of smash dlc if you know what I mean. yes there are alot of cool bandai namco characters but id be happy to be corrected on that since it would give me more perspective.

edit: I thinking that is highly possible that monster hunter is dare I say the next character. one pattern I see with this pass is that all the characters could be seen as characters that are like the last hurrah and what I mean by that is say after min min, arms has a more full representation and almost feels like base game that is going to last for a long time and has made a impression on gaming. final fantasy was severely underrepresented in this game and with sephiroth, it now has a more appropriate amount off representation in this game with all the spirits and music and mii costumes. so now monster hunter only has one spirit and rathalos but no hunter to actually fight rathalos. imagine bowser being in the game but no mario to fight him. I think its more than just promotion for rise but also just giving monster hunter as a series the representation that it deserves

 

[DevaAshera]

Yuri? Hmm... is he similar to Lloyd enough to be an alt (like the Dragon Quest Heroes)?

Not even remotely..in fact, none of the Tales characters are similar to Lloyd.

All of the Tales protagonists have different fighting styles, even when they use the same weapons, and have different attacks, so it would be just that singular character with none of the others as alts.

As you can see here, Lloyd uses dual blades and Yuri uses a single blade..Yuri also uses flourishes that wouldn't fit other Tales characters, like flipping the black through the air mid slash.

If a Tales character gets in, it'd definitely be between Lloyd & Yuri, they are by far the most popular Tales characters still, as much as I would adore Velvet Crowe from Tales of Berseria, my fav game. She's just so awesome..though her outfit would need to be censored a little bit, like in my sig, lol

 

[Shroob]

you missed the part where i said this picture is a little outdated after sephiroth, what i need to do now with it is take that part off but the imortant part is that we most deffinatly will get those missing costumes and lloyd is probably in the same boat as geno. Already made as a costume and his costume was probably handpicked along with all the others to somewhat or somehow make sense to release alongside some character in fp2

I mean, that's what I feel like most people were kinda banking on.


I'd imagine most people are expecting a Capcom character as CP9, not necessarily Monster Hunter, if only because it'd make sense to get the MH costumes in game right around the time Rise comes out.


Lloyd was always an enigma as to what he'd come with, since Namco costumes seemed pretty up in the air with whatever they were thrown in with, but maybe having CP10 being an actual ****ing Namco character would be it.... oooooooor Lloyd could just be tossed in with anything, who knows, Namco costumes just get tossed in haphazardly.

 

[venomthebest]

I mean, that's what I feel like most people were kinda banking on.


I'd imagine most people are expecting a Capcom character as CP9, not necessarily Monster Hunter, if only because it'd make sense to get the MH costumes in game right around the time Rise comes out.


Lloyd was always an enigma as to what he'd come with, since Namco costumes seemed pretty up in the air with whatever they were thrown in with, but maybe having CP10 being an actual ****ing Namco character would be it.... oooooooor Lloyd could just be tossed in with anything, who knows, Namco costumes just get tossed in haphazardly.

with the capcom characters, ive seen mostly people think maybe dante or phoenix. I would bet money that phoenix isnt getting in because he doesn't offer anything interesting mechanically speaking. hes just a dude in a suit that is an attorney. and dante is cool and all but do they realy think hes in the the priority for the last 6 characters added to the ultimate smashbros?! idk id be happy if dante got in but thats what i think about him

edit: thats another reason i think monster hunter is our best bet.

 

[Shroob]

with the capcom characters, ive seen mostly people think maybe dante or phoenix. I would bet money that phoenix isnt getting in because he doesn't offer anything interesting mechanically speaking. hes just a dude in a suit that is an attorney. and dante is cool and all but do they realy think hes in the the priority for the last 6 characters added to the ultimate smashbros?! idk id be happy if dante got in but thats what i think about him

edit: thats another reason i think monster hunter is our best bet.

I mean, right now we're kinda discussing Chun Li since she's been in a leak that's existed since basically the game came out, which just ironically happens to include a Tales of character, which, in a very weird way, strengthens your theory substantially by having Chun Li(A capcom character) and a Tales of character(With the Lloyd Mii).

 

[7NATOR]

ok its kinda pissing me off how no one has made this connection yet. I've had this theory since like before min min, or around min min and this picture is a little outdated since sephiroth came out and genos costume was revealed but the important part of the theory still holds up true. the fact that genos costume isn't deluxe kinda points to the idea that they intended to have all the costumes in the first pass prior to the decision to make the second pass.

edit: they could totaly have a monster hunter character playable and still have the costumes and still be different characters as the costumes in smash 4 are from monster hunter 4 and they could do literaly any other armors from monster hunter world or maybe rise if they knew enough about it before hand, there are a butt ton of them.

I will have to say something about your Theory Venom

I do think perhaps Sans , and maybe Cuphead and Vault Boy might have been n the cards even if FP2 was not a Thing. I Remember that Sans music takedown occured 9 Months before the Mii Costume got in, so it seems like perhaps the costume was in planning for longer than that, and the same thing could have happen to Cuphead and Vault Boy (with Bethesda, remember they said at E3 2018 they talked to Nintendo about Smash)

With that said, your Theory I think is Very Realizable, and I do think every costume would have returned if FP2 was not a thing

As for what this might entail, I think we saw the Fruits of this Theory with Sephiroth. Perhaps something might happen with Namco, Capcom, and Sega as well

Actually on that front, I do have a Seperate theory i should work on as well. I'm glad that someone also is doing Mii costume theorizing

 

[Idon]

with the capcom characters, ive seen mostly people think maybe dante or phoenix. I would bet money that phoenix isnt getting in because he doesn't offer anything interesting mechanically speaking. hes just a dude in a suit that is an attorney. and dante is cool and all but do they realy think hes in the the priority for the last 6 characters added to the ultimate smashbros?! idk id be happy if dante got in but thats what i think about him

edit: thats another reason i think monster hunter is our best bet.

Well if you asked me what I thought would be contenders for "one of 6 last DLC characters" I would not have chosen Min Min under pretty much any circumstance.

As for Phoenix, the fact he's so plain while coming from an investigative court drama game is what opens up so many avenues for moveset potential, not that it's ever stopped Sakurai before.

 

[venomthebest]

I will have to say something about your Theory Venom

I do think perhaps Sans , and maybe Cuphead and Vault Boy might have been n the cards even if FP2 was not a Thing. I Remember that Sans music takedown occured 9 Months before the Mii Costume got in, so it seems like perhaps the costume was in planning for longer than that, and the same thing could have happen to Cuphead and Vault Boy (with Bethesda, remember they said at E3 2018 they talked to Nintendo about Smash)

With that said, your Theory I think is Very Realizable, and I do think every costume would have returned if FP2 was not a thing

As for what this might entail, I think we saw the Fruits of this Theory with Sephiroth. Perhaps something might happen with Namco, Capcom, and Sega as well

Actually on that front, I do have a Seperate theory i should work on as well. I'm glad that someone also is doing Mii costume theorizing

alot of my theory with the sans costume and deluxe idea is partially based on the assumption of when toby fox played smash brothers ultimate at sakurais house, the optimal time to negotiate with the head of undertale. which would imply that it would be after when the they planned the fighters pass 1

 

[venomthebest]

Well if you asked me what I thought would be contenders for "one of 6 last DLC characters" I would not have chosen Min Min under pretty much any circumstance.

Min min is a tricky one because she doesnt seem like the usual sakurai picking characters from a list.

 

[Shroob]

....Now that I think about it, why aren't there any Street Fighter Mii costumes anyway?


You'd think, if she wasn't intended to be playable, that Chun Li would eventually get one, being a hugely iconic character in gaming, and from a series represented in Smash, considering we got Mii outfits for the likes of KoF, Tekken and Virtua Fighter, but Street Fighter still has nothing in regards to that. Like, not a single one, despite Megaman having a handful and Monster Hunter having 2.


Like, ignoring every other SF character right now, you'd at the very least expect someone like Chun Li to get a Mii outfit if she wasn't playable due to just how much of an icon she is, but there's just nothing. Not a single Mii fighter costume for Street Fighter, and that's just... really weird?


Megaman, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Persona, SNK in general, and a couple more I'm probably forgetting all have costumes. Yeah, not every franchise gets Mii costumes, like Metal Gear and Castlevania, but this feels like a very odd exception considering that Capcom has 2 other franchises with them already.


Street Fighter Miis seem like an easy make considering we have a plethora of other fighting game characters as Miis, and... nothing? Coupled with the fact that we haven't seen any Capcom ones this pass and are still missing 2 Monster Hunter Miis from 4? And Capcom seemingly seems like the next character if only to jettison the Monster Hunter costumes out before Rise comes out? And we've been seeing a trend where they tend to hold company Miis if a character is in the works?(Albeit, this is the least solid piece of evidence, but it does happen as we've seen).



Of course my speculation is just that, speculation, but the fact that Chun hasn't received a Mii outfit, and the fact that people are kinda expecting Capcom next... definitely raises a minor eyebrow to me.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

How do you all feel about Gordon Freeman being a playable fighter in Smash?

I don't see it happening personally due to Valve and Nintendo having never interacted but he'd be another great suprise. I did beat the OG Half-Life recently and I currently own 2 and both episodes so he might grow to be one of my most wanted.

 

[Speed Weed]

I'd expected the next character to be a surprise, like an out of left field pick like a nobody like Terry.

I can't believe Challenger Pack 9 is the Spanish Inquisition

 

[Shroob]

....Now that I think about it, why aren't there any Street Fighter Mii costumes anyway?


You'd think, if she wasn't intended to be playable, that Chun Li would eventually get one, being a hugely iconic character in gaming, and from a series represented in Smash, considering we got Mii outfits for the likes of KoF, Tekken and Virtua Fighter, but Street Fighter still has nothing in regards to that. Like, not a single one, despite Megaman having a handful and Monster Hunter having 2.


Like, ignoring every other SF character right now, you'd at the very least expect someone like Chun Li to get a Mii outfit if she wasn't playable due to just how much of an icon she is, but there's just nothing. Not a single Mii fighter costume for Street Fighter, and that's just... really weird?


Megaman, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Persona, SNK in general, and a couple more I'm probably forgetting all have costumes. Yeah, not every franchise gets Mii costumes, like Metal Gear and Castlevania, but this feels like a very odd exception considering that Capcom has 2 other franchises with them already.


Street Fighter Miis seem like an easy make considering we have a plethora of other fighting game characters as Miis, and... nothing? Coupled with the fact that we haven't seen any Capcom ones this pass and are still missing 2 Monster Hunter Miis from 4? And Capcom seemingly seems like the next character if only to jettison the Monster Hunter costumes out before Rise comes out? And we've been seeing a trend where they tend to hold company Miis if a character is in the works?(Albeit, this is the least solid piece of evidence, but it does happen as we've seen).



Of course my speculation is just that, speculation, but the fact that Chun hasn't received a Mii outfit, and the fact that people are kinda expecting Capcom next... definitely raises a minor eyebrow to me.

.....and to add to all of this.... guess what happens next year... In March, the same month people are expecting a character?


Street Fighter 2, the game that Chun Li first appeared in, turns 30.

Everyone's been soo busy looking at Monster Hunter due to Rise coming out or Ryu Hayabusa due to the rumored Switch port that maybe the answer was under our nose this whole time, only strengthened by this supposed 5ch leak.

 

[Nekoo]

The only thing that make me doubt.tm the fact that we will get a Capcom rep is that there no mention of it in the literal GIGABYTES of leaks from the company, especially the marketing aspect of it.
We know tons of stuff related to marketing timing and even limited time exclusivity for Nintendo, sliders for internal marketing bullet points and timing release/ marketing plan.

Im sure if they got a fighter we would have heard about it, even more if it's releated to MH

 

[Shroob]

The only thing that make me doubt.tm the fact that we will get a Capcom rep is that there no mention of it in the literal GIGABYTES of leaks from the company, especially the marketing aspect of it.
We know tons of stuff related to marketing timing and even limited time exclusivity for Nintendo, sliders for internal marketing bullet points and timing release/ marketing plan.

Im sure if they got a fighter we would have heard about it, even more if it's releated to MH

Question, how far back does this gigaleak go back to?

 

[Nekoo]

Question, how far back does this gigaleak go back to?

Around this year/Last year considering it has plan for the next 4 years and got everything right for this year with RE8 and MH:Rise

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The only thing that make me doubt.tm the fact that we will get a Capcom rep is that there no mention of it in the literal GIGABYTES of leaks from the company, especially the marketing aspect of it.
We know tons of stuff related to marketing timing and even limited time exclusivity for Nintendo, sliders for internal marketing bullet points and timing release/ marketing plan.

Im sure if they got a fighter we would have heard about it, even more if it's releated to MH

At the same time, not everything from that leak's out in the open yet, right?

 

[Shroob]

Around this year/Last year considering it has plan for the next 4 years and got everything right for this year with RE8 and MH:Rise

So what if the rights to a Smash character were handed over earlier than that?


Using this supposed Chun/Tales of leak for example, it seems like Chun, if it's legit, was obtained somewhere before Ultimate even came out, probably somewhere in the planning phases, which would, for all intents and purposes, make her immune to said leak.

 

[PLATINUM7]

So what if the rights to a Smash character were handed over earlier than that?


Using this supposed Chun/Tales of leak for example, it seems like Chun, if it's legit, was obtained somewhere before Ultimate even came out, probably somewhere in the planning phases, which would, for all intents and purposes, make her immune to said leak.

You'd still think there'd at least be a memo, "Don't skip Smash day" or something.

 

[Nekoo]

At the same time, not everything from that leak's out in the open yet, right?

That is true, but I bet that if those guy saw any mention of Smash Bros in it, it would have been released first too ngl.

So what if the rights to a Smash character were handed over earlier than that?


Using this supposed Chun/Tales of leak for example, it seems like Chun, if it's legit, was obtained somewhere before Ultimate even came out, probably somewhere in the planning phases, which would, for all intents and purposes, make her immune to said leak.

If it's Chun-Li, probably since we dont have much about SF beside SF6 being developed and Ultra SF6 already planned-
However MH is dead in the water for me since we got lots of it and even marketing schedules and 0 mention of Smash anywhere

 

[Deleted member]

.....and to add to all of this.... guess what happens next year... In March, the same month people are expecting a character?


Street Fighter 2, the game that Chun Li first appeared in, turns 30.

View attachment 296342


Everyone's been soo busy looking at Monster Hunter due to Rise coming out or Ryu Hayabusa due to the rumored Switch port that maybe the answer was under our nose this whole time, only strengthened by this supposed 5ch leak.

Yeah but, when you when you take in the delays involving Min-Min and covid, it's likely that CP9 would have came out before March.

Besides, anniversaries doesn't mean anything in smash. Sephiroth was announced the same day as Doom's anniversary.

I seriously doubt this means anything.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That is true, but I bet that if those guy saw any mention of Smash Bros in it, it would have been released first too ngl.



If it's Chun-Li, probably since we dont have much about SF beside SF6 being developed and Ultra SF6 already planned-
However MH is dead in the water for me since we got lots of it and even marketing schedules and 0 mention of Smash anywhere

Fair enough, at worst, this becomes Schrodiger's Capcom

 

[Shroob]

That is true, but I bet that if those guy saw any mention of Smash Bros in it, it would have been released first too ngl.



If it's Chun-Li, probably since we dont have much about SF beside SF6 being developed and Ultra SF6 already planned-
However MH is dead in the water for me since we got lots of it and even marketing schedules and 0 mention of Smash anywhere

That's what I'm thinking. I'm not going to call this Chun/Tales of leak legit, because it's not confirmed to be so, but it did get a lot of **** oddly right, which is why if we do get a Capcom rep, I'm kind of leaning Chun right now due to it.

 

[PLATINUM7]

So what Street Fighter II tracks would Chun-Li bring that we don't have already?

 

[Nekoo]

So what Street Fighter II tracks would Chun-Li bring that we don't have already?

Stuff that doesn't come from SF2 obligatory. :^)

 

[Shroob]

So what Street Fighter II tracks would Chun-Li bring that we don't have already?

Why SF2? If anything, SF3 is a game that basically has 0 representation in Smash, with a whole 2 spirits to its name. Sakurai also loves dropping nods to the famous Daigo Parry, and afaik, Ken's based on his SF3 look.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Why SF2? If anything, SF3 is a game that basically has 0 representation in Smash, with a whole 2 spirits to its name. Sakurai also loves dropping nods to the famous Daigo Parry, and afaik, Ken's based on his SF3 look.

All the SF tracks in Smash are from SFII.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So what Street Fighter II tracks would Chun-Li bring that we don't have already?

Considering how popular her outfit from it is, I'd personally expect a chunk of Alpha content.


Also I just realized that out of that Square Seven list, Crono's the only one who we know nothing about, Luminary, Erdrick and Sephiroth became playable, Slime was considered, Geno got a Spirit and a costume and reliable sources say they tried to get Sora but failed to secure the rights. That's interesting to me

 

[Shroob]

Yeah but, when you when you take in the delays involving Min-Min and covid, it's likely that CP9 would have came out before March.

Besides, anniversaries doesn't mean anything in smash. Sephiroth was announced the same day as Doom's anniversary.

I seriously doubt this means anything.

....Honestly, call me crazy, but, I ask...

What delays?



Maybe a hot as hell take but... isn't it kinda odd how despite the 'delays', that characters have still came out on average with the release schedule of the first pass?

Isn't it odd that Steve just happened to come out right in time for Minecon?

Isn't it really odd that Sephiroth dropped right at the Game Awards, where FF7R was up for awards?


Maybe Min Min was delayed a bit, but to me, literally everything else seems on track, if not outright planned.

 

[Speed Weed]

The only thing that make me doubt.tm the fact that we will get a Capcom rep is that there no mention of it in the literal GIGABYTES of leaks from the company, especially the marketing aspect of it.
We know tons of stuff related to marketing timing and even limited time exclusivity for Nintendo, sliders for internal marketing bullet points and timing release/ marketing plan.

Im sure if they got a fighter we would have heard about it, even more if it's releated to MH

I think a Capcom rep is still possible due to one simple reason:

We haven't seen any mention of the MH Miis in it yet. Capcom content other than characters still has to be negotiated for, and I think it would be likely for these negotiations to be somewhere in the gigaleak as well. So that leaves us with two options as for the MH miis having not yet leaked. Either:

1. They've simply passed by undetected so far, which would mean that any other Capcom-related Smash content could have just as easily snuck by too

2. The MH costumes are outright missing from the pass, which the only reasonable explanation I can really think of is, well, the hunter being a playable character instead

I'd only start taking the lack of Capcom character mentioned in the gigaleak as a potential blow when we see those MH miis in the leak but no sign of any playable character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think a Capcom rep is still possible due to one simple reason:

We haven't seen any mention of the MH Miis in it yet. Capcom content other than characters still has to be negotiated for, and I think it would be likely for these negotiations to be somewhere in the gigaleak as well. So that leaves us with two options as for the MH miis having not yet leaked. Either:

1. They've simply passed by undetected so far, which would mean that any other Capcom-related Smash content could have just as easily snuck by too

2. The MH costumes are outright missing from the pass, which the only reasonable explanation I can really think of is, well, the hunter being a playable character instead

I'd only start taking the lack of Capcom character mentioned in the gigaleak as a potential blow when we see those MH miis in the leak but no sign of any playable character.

Now that you mention it, yeah, wouldn't there be data on the Mii Costumes? They still need to be approved and licensed even if they're returning alongside an appropriate track for marketing