Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[blueneuronDOTnet]

You guys catch the latest leak?

Spoiler

 

[Gallowglass]

So after the Direct I've gotten a bit of a conspiracy theory on the roster banner on the main website (No its not Mr. Saturn). When I saw them added to the banner I thought to myself "were those gaps there originally?". Well I think they were added in but looking at it now and with much overthinking I'm seeing some interesting quirks there.

1. Most characters are either facing the camera or is interacting/imitating with one or more characters. Dark Pit and Falco, Mewtwo and Lucas, DK and Kirby, etc. Some characters are doing both like Little Mac and Ike have the same pose and King K. Rool and Bowser have similar poses.

2. Nearly every character is either overlapping or being overlapping one or multiple characters or they are way in the background (Luigi, Diddy Kong, Mii Gunner).

With that in mind I notice some exceptions.

1. Dark Samus is rather open. With only a little bit of her arm covered by Shulk she is pretty open compared to the rest of the cast.
2. Another gap is Mr. Game and Watch. As he doesn't cover anybody and there is large gap behind him.
3. Daisy looks like she's striking a pose at someone but its not clear who. Possibly Simon but its not really clear.

I'm not sure it means anything and I'm probably overthinking it. If anything I feel like there will be at least 3 new characters added. You could possibly speculate size of these potential character if its true.

 

[cybersai]

I'm surprised so many people leave a new Pokemon rep out of their speculation, the chances of Smash launching without a new Pokemon is zero.

I also think there will only be 8 total newcomers, so we're probably only getting 4 more all new characters. I think it'll be Gen 7 Pokemon, Skull kid, Geno, and some other fan favorite.

I just need Dixie in some form, and I think Isabelle will be in too, but who knows.

 

[PrinceGal3n]

Man! I am still reeling from that Direct! My second most wanted character is now here (K Rool) and another that I wanted has joined up as well (Dark Samus)!

My predictions and thoughts about the remaining characters has shifted slightly. In addition, I went into the Direct believing that Sakurai would absolutely subvert all of our expectations for this game, and he has! This game truly is pandering to fan service across the board. All of that being said, here are my revised predictions:

True Newcomers

1. Skull Kid
With many factors such as his AT absence, the Moon AT, Great Bay Stage, and the unseen Young Link FS, I see this all as being very suspicious. Considering we haven't had a true Zelda Newcomer since Melee, I believe he has a very good chance to appear.

2. Isaac
Of the most wanted characters from the Brawl days, Isaac is definitely within the top 10 characters from back then, with not as much prominence as Ridley or K Rool obviously, but still popular nonetheless. If the ballot is anything to go on, and that fact that his AT hasn't returned yet either, I count him as likely as well. PLUS, Golden Sun still had music in Smash WiiU, so the series is still on Sakurai's radar at least.

3. Gen 7 Pokemon
With Mimikyu down and out, my highest hope is still Decidueye (I do not believe Verg on his absence), but as long as it is not Zeraora, I can tolerate whoever.

4. Geno
My puppet dude better get in this or I will be very shocked that he didn't. Sakurai knows how much he is wanted.

5. Banjo & Kazooie
The last 3rd party classic that was present on Nintendo systems. To see these two represented would be a dream come true.

Echo Fighters

1. Dixie Kong
Yeah, she is gonna show up later, primarily a Diddy echo with ponytail copter for Up-B and Bubblegum gun.

2. Black Shadow
F-Zero NEEDS someone, anyone to stand with Falcon at this point.

3. Medusa
Potential for a Palutena Echo, and a female villain from a classic franchise, I see her as likely at this point.

4. Masked Man
More villains please! A Lucas echo with some extra flair, I would love to see Masked Man take the role of the Mother villain if Porky can't make it.

5. Impa & Twili Midna
A common request and a twist. Hear me out here. Look at the Zelda Reps right now. Each one represents a different era of the series, but several important eras are currently missing. If this game is about fan service and celebrating the history of so many franchises, why not rep as many parts of Zelda's vast history as possible? I would say that Skyward Sword's Impa as a Sheik Echo would fit the bill perfectly. This one is a long shot, but we also are missing a rep from the Twilight era, so why not have Twili Midna as a Zelda Echo? I think it would work well enough and rep the missing era. If we are getting Skull Kid as a newcomer, this would perfectly rep all of Zelda's history in Smash to a T. If Sakurai really is wanting to subvert our expectations, then this is the surefire way of doing it.

6. Shadow
As much as I have been burnt out with Shadow over the years, I still fondly remember his debut appearance in Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. I am sure he is likely now with Richter present, so I am warming up to the idea. I would take Tails first as a personal preference.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I Think theres gonna be 72 fighters in the final game

Good realization however I'm sure we are getting more than 3

84 is probably the real correct number that number is also divisible by 2,3 and 4

 

[QrowinSP]

Man! I am still reeling from that Direct! My second most wanted character is now here (K Rool) and another that I wanted has joined up as well (Dark Samus)!

My predictions and thoughts about the remaining characters has shifted slightly. In addition, I went into the Direct believing that Sakurai would absolutely subvert all of our expectations for this game, and he has! This game truly is pandering to fan service across the board. All of that being said, here are my revised predictions:

True Newcomers

1. Skull Kid
With many factors such as his AT absence, the Moon AT, Great Bay Stage, and the unseen Young Link FS, I see this all as being very suspicious. Considering we haven't had a true Zelda Newcomer since Melee, I believe he has a very good chance to appear.

2. Isaac
Of the most wanted characters from the Brawl days, Isaac is definitely within the top 10 characters from back then, with not as much prominence as Ridley or K Rool obviously, but still popular nonetheless. If the ballot is anything to go on, and that fact that his AT hasn't returned yet either, I count him as likely as well. PLUS, Golden Sun still had music in Smash WiiU, so the series is still on Sakurai's radar at least.

3. Gen 7 Pokemon
With Mimikyu down and out, my highest hope is still Decidueye (I do not believe Verg on his absence), but as long as it is not Zeraora, I can tolerate whoever.

4. Geno
My puppet dude better get in this or I will be very shocked that he didn't. Sakurai knows how much he is wanted.

5. Banjo & Kazooie
The last 3rd party classic that was present on Nintendo systems. To see these two represented would be a dream come true.

Echo Fighters

1. Dixie Kong
Yeah, she is gonna show up later, primarily a Diddy echo with ponytail copter for Up-B and Bubblegum gun.

2. Black Shadow
F-Zero NEEDS someone, anyone to stand with Falcon at this point.

3. Medusa
Potential for a Palutena Echo, and a female villain from a classic franchise, I see her as likely at this point.

4. Masked Man
More villains please! A Lucas echo with some extra flair, I would love to see Masked Man take the role of the Mother villain if Porky can't make it.

5. Impa & Twili Midna
A common request and a twist. Hear me out here. Look at the Zelda Reps right now. Each one represents a different era of the series, but several important eras are currently missing. If this game is about fan service and celebrating the history of so many franchises, why not rep as many parts of Zelda's vast history as possible? I would say that Skyward Sword's Impa as a Sheik Echo would fit the bill perfectly. This one is a long shot, but we also are missing a rep from the Twilight era, so why not have Twili Midna as a Zelda Echo? I think it would work well enough and rep the missing era. If we are getting Skull Kid as a newcomer, this would perfectly rep all of Zelda's history in Smash to a T. If Sakurai really is wanting to subvert our expectations, then this is the surefire way of doing it.

6. Shadow
As much as I have been burnt out with Shadow over the years, I still fondly remember his debut appearance in Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. I am sure he is likely now with Richter present, so I am warming up to the idea. I would take Tails first as a personal preference.

Glad to see someone agrees with me about twili midna! She’s a fan favorite, around as beloved as chrom or damus. Perfect candidate for an echo, and Zelda could use two.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Dumb thought, do Medusa Heads deconfirm Medusa?

 

[PrinceGal3n]

Dumb thought, do Medusa Heads deconfirm Medusa?

I would like to think it wouldn't deconfirm her. It could make for a funny screenshot with her frozen by it!

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Dumb thought, do Medusa Heads deconfirm Medusa?

*facepalm*

You have got to be kidding me

That's like decnfirming duck hunt dog since he's on that stage

 

[Curious Villager]

Dumb thought, do Medusa Heads deconfirm Medusa?

I mean two different characters from the same series is one thing (Flashbacks to pre Smash 4 Toon Link & Conductor Link debates)
Two different characters from two entirely different franchises is an entirely different thing. (Inb4 Sakurai Alfonzo's CV statue Medusa anyway if KI Medusa is playable...)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

*facepalm*

You have got to be kidding me

That's like decnfirming duck hunt dog since he's on that stage

Funny thing is that Duck Hunt(the character) was introduced before the stage.

We never had a character introduced as an NPC on a stage and then playable within the same game. Toon Link was already a character beforehand, so him still being playable is only a partial example.

It doesn't mean Captain Toad is outright disconfirmed, but there's a very good chance he isn't playable too.

But yes, what do the Medusa heads have to do with Kid Icarus? :/

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I have a bunch of random thoughts about the possible newcomers (I don't know if someone already mentioned some of them).

-I think that every third party is going to have more than 1 character. Sega will probably get Shadow or some other Sonic characters, but I don't exclude someone from Puyo Puyo too (even if it's less likely).

-Since the Monster Hunter stage is not included in the list of 103 stages, some speculated that it's from the story mode. Though, I think that it's more likely that it's a stage, and that 103 is not the final number. Because of this, I think that a character from Monster Hunter is going to be a newcomer.
I especially think that 103 is not the final number because of all the remaining newcomers (even if there are only 3 or 4 remaining), I'm sure that at least one of them will get a new stage.

-What about Megaman.exe? Everybody is ignoring him, though I remember that they had to make a Mii costume for him because of high request. Maybe he will be added as an echo, or he's one of the last Assist Trophies still unrevealed.

-Skull Kid is rumored by several people, it's in a credible leak and all... though, if Skull Kid is a newcomer, why is the Moon an assist trophy when it should have been his final smash? I' a bit skeptical about him.

-In the picture with the artworks of all the characters, Wario and King Dedede are scared of something coming from their right. I doubt it's Pokèmon trainer... not even Charizard is so scary to make those two react that way. Since Bowser and Ridley are placed in different locations and other possible "scary" characters are far from them as well, who do you think will be the newcomer that will creep Wario and King Dedede that much? I have considered the possibility that it's either (blue pig classic) Ganon, or maybe Black Shadow (Cpt Falcon echo), but it may be someone else, who knows, maybe from Kid Icarus.

-Geno is very likely this time, though, I feel that a new Final Fantasy character is also likely. If it's true that Final Fantasy has still only 2 music tracks, then it could mean that they have hidden some songs, or simply what they have shown is not the final version of the game. Probably they have hidden the music from some specific games to avoid giving hints on what character they will reveal.

-I think that Ubisoft may join the group of third parties at a certain point. I speculate that Rayman will be their newcomer, but I don't exclude the addition of Ezio from Assassin's Creed or something like that. The Rabbids will obvioussly be assist trophies.

-If I'm not wrong, they have shown exactly 40 assist trophies so far. Since they announced 50+ assist trophies in total, potentially there are still 19 slots avaliable (at best).

-What they will do with the Kirby series is still a mystery and I think it's unpredictable. With the (almost) deconfirmation of Cpt Toad I think Bandana Waddle Dee also lost a big amount of chances of getting in, given how similar the two characters were, though it's still one of the most requested characters, so they may put him in the game for popularity reasons. On the other hand, it depends on several factors that fans usually ignore, such as: if you put him as "Bandana" Waddle Dee, you can't give him different costumes, and you can't give him weapons other than the spear and to an extent the parasol, else, it will be confused with any other Waddle Dee. It would be very limiting for them, and I feel like, if he will be introduced in the roster, it's going to be Waddle Dee (in general), with different costumes, one of which is the bandanna, along with the sailor hat and other stuff. Though, this way you are basically adding a random Waddle Dee into the roster... is it worth? I mean, would they allow it? Since even Toad is still part of Peach (and Daisy), and they decided to exclude him from the roster, would a Waddle Dee be included before Toad (who I think is a lot more relevant for Nintendo in general)?
So, it's all about what Sakurai wants, though I think Bandana Waddle Dee's chances are like, 40% or less, despite what most of the fans think (many of them think that he's guaranteed and it's just a matter of time).
But, if they won't include Bandana Waddle Dee in the roster, what they will do instead? Leave Kirby with no newcomers for the 2nd time in a row? Choice someone else? I honestly don't know. So far, Kirby is the franchise I have absolutely no idea of what they will do with.
Kirby Star Allies introduced the Dream Friends, a selection of important characters from the whole series. It's safe to assume that if they will choice someone else, it will be either a Dream Friend, or Dark Matter/Galacta Knight (who aren't part of the Dream Friends). Though, unless they want to add like 7 characters at once and none of them as an echo (very unlikely), there is no way to predict who they will choice.
Maybe Marx, for Sakurai's Superstar bias? Maybe Magolor, who was pretty high in the ballot? Maybe Adeleine or Galacta Knight who were just a little lower than Magolor in the ballot (according to that poll made by fans)? Maybe more than one character? I can see Kirby getting 2 newcomers this time... who knows.
I fear that at the end, Kirby will get no newcomers just like the last time -.-

-What's going on with Lip? It's just me, or her stick is missing this time? What are they planning with her? Is it just that they don't care of referencing her anymore, or are they planning to add her as a newcomer?

-I don't believe that theory about the total number of characters calculated from Smashdown. It's Smash, it's Sakurai, he will always find ways to put exceptions and unexpected stuff into the game. I doubt they made the game in a way so that they can't even add a DLC character because the structure of the game itself collapses if the characters are different than a specific amount.

-EDIT: I was forgetting about Rhythm Heaven. A lot of people wanted characters such as the Chorus Kids or Karate Joe for Smash 4, so it's possible that one of the last newcomers could be one of them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Since everyone seems to be doing updated predictions after the direct, I guess I’ll give it a shot.

I’m feeling (as unique newcomers)
Isaac: one of the most demanded characters left.

Chorus Kids: with Chrom, Ditto and Sukapon, I think Sakurai is going back to look at previous ideas, and Chorus Kids allegedly had work done on them already. Besides, RH representation.

Geno: see Isaac.

Dixie Kong: also very popular and relevant. I guess she could be a semiclone, though if whatever idiot thought Chrom should be called an Echo dubs her one too, I’d be kinda pissed.

Skull Kid: the one I’m most iffy about on this list, but the Moon AT screams to me that he’s as good as confirmed.

Bandanna Dee: Japan needs a pick, and this little guy’s awesome.

Isabelle: I’m probably one of the few people who would prefer her to be a unique character, but what can ya do.

A retro: the question is who? Lip, Sable and Ayumi would be deliberate Japanese picks, Ayumi having the advantage of going back on old ideas (see Chorus Kids). Mike Jones would be the opposite of that, but he has probably the most moveset potential. Mach Rider lies somewhere in between, and could benefit from being a potential Falcon echo.

As for Echoes, Shadow and Ken are no-brainers, and I have a hunch Ninten will be in as well. I’m probably forgetting someone though.

So, 8 more newcomers? That seem sensible to you? That gives us a total of 12, and one reveal a month til release date.

 

[QrowinSP]

Figure I’ll give my two cents.

True Newcomers

Geno: Fan request as old as brawl speculation. They are going for tying up loose ends this game, so I think this is likely.

Skull kid: New Zelda villain with a lot of evidence backing him up.

Gen 7 rep: Don’t want one but it sounds likely at this point.

That’s what I feel confident saying. Other options are bandana dee to round out Kirby, Isaac for similar reasons as Geno, and goku, due to undying cultural relevance, some actual video game relevance, and the gut instinct that we are capable of memeong a character into the game. And, of course, banjo kazooie.

I only expect 4 more true newcomers.

Echoes

Ken AND Akuma, of Ryu: Ken is a no brained, and Akuma gives us a villain. Sure, we have no precedent for a double echo, but it makes sense for ryu.

Shadow the Hedgehog, of Sonic: no brainer.

Impa/Midna, of sheik and Zelda: zelda needs more reps that aren’t the main three, and these are both beloved characters worthy of an echo.

Dixie Kong: Much beloved, deserves a slot here, even if it’s not a full slot.

Medusa, of Palutena: I expect kiu characters to play a big role in story mode, so having her in makes sense. Also would have viridi and hades as bosses.

Black Shadow, of Falco: For extra f zero representation.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Wait a second

The moon thing about skull kid

You all forgot something

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Riki

Riki is both assist and part of the final smash with shulk

Why not the moon get the same treatment

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Wait a second

The moon thing about skull kid

You all forgot something

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Riki

Riki is both assist and part of the final smash with shulk

Why not the moon get the same treatment

The moon already has that treatment as it appears on the Great Bay stage. Not saying that means it couldn't show up again in any way, just kind of funny that it already does.

On another topic:

After this most recent batch of news, who are your top 10 newcomers for the game that aren't deconfirmed. I'll throw people a bone and say you can include them even if they show up on stages (But I really think Toon Link in the incredibly specific exception to that rule. Not hear to debate that though).

For me, my new top 10 after having King K Rool and Simon confirmed, while Ashley put back in as an assist are:

10. Marshal/Chorus Boys - I like Rhythm Heaven a lot, and I think the games deserve a playable character in some form or another. Karate Joe may be more typical when it comes to fighters, but that makes his less interesting to me. I'd love to see what Sakurai could do with their move set to make him/them a unique fighter for the game.

9. Ayumi Tachibana - I'll always take a WTF character. I know basically nothing about her, other than the concept of her as a fighter from this site. She's a weird pick that has stuck in my mind forever as a cool idea for Sakurai to revisit. I'd love to see her done well.

8. Sceptile - My dream Pokemon pick. I know I have Decidueye in my signature, and he is really cool and my alternate Pokemon pick. That said, Sceptile was MY starter growing up with Pokemon Emerald, and I'd love to see him included as a fighter. He's had some support over the years, and I want to see his signature Leaf Blade in action in Smash.

7. Bandanna Dee - A spear user would be really cool in Smash since we're probably never going to get one from Fire Emblem. He may be generic looking, but he's charmed his way into my heart as a suitable Kirby representative. A character handled well in Super Smash Flash 2 already.

6. Rayman - I want to see a Western third party get a role in the game, and to me he's the most interesting due to his animations and overall long lasting history as an iconic, if not under-appreciated character.

5. Dixie Kong (Unique/Semi-Clone) - I know she's pretty much only got a chance as an Echo now, but I'd love to see her get an actual hair based move set that is used for her throws, up-B, and maybe even attacks. To me she is one of the last all-stars standing for Nintendo to potentially include, and I think she is the last big DK rep that really deserves a spot on the roster now.

4. Chibi-Robo - I adore his games, and he is also a representative of a series that has yet to get ANY real recognition in Smash so far. I love the way he was handled in Super Smash Flash 2, and I think he'd have a super adorable and unique move set. Maybe a little less so now that Simon is in the game, but I don't mind.

3. Banjo Kazooie - Only here and not on top because the other two have seniority support from me personally, and I can only let myself dream so much. This is probably my real most wanted at the end of the day, but I have to keep expectations in check to SOME degree. I'd be ecstatic to see their inclusion in Smash after so much time, and I think they're the biggest bombshell for Smash fans and the community at large possibly left.

2. Isaac - I love Golden Sun and I've supported him since Smash 4. I'm also all in support of more mage characters, and he'd be able to have a unique kit in my mind.

1. Geno - I love his design, Super Mario RPG as a whole, and I think he finally has a very legitimate chance on top of everything else. Having Super Mario RPG music in alongside him would be great, and he'd just be able to play so uniquely I imagine. I love a good projectile based character anyway, and he'd be able to fit the role pretty well I imagine. Plus it'd be a wonderful moment of fan service to continue the current theme of it in Smash Ultimate.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Dumb thought, do Medusa Heads deconfirm Medusa?

Roy Koopa didn't deconfirm Roy from Fire Emblem. I think two things can have the same name and be okay.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Wait a second

The moon thing about skull kid

You all forgot something

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Riki

Riki is both assist and part of the final smash with shulk

Why not the moon get the same treatment

I'm a bit skeptical, though it can still happen, it's just that I think it decreases his chances a bit.
The point is, while Riki acts differently as an AT and during the final smash, the moon would do the same thing, just fall and destroy everything; it would feel a bit redundant, like for example, having both Chef Kawasaki and Kirby with his Brawl final smash, in the same game.

EricTheGamerman I think there was a thread for that already, though my top 10 are (updated, may change with time):

no priority:
10-I don't know really, there are many characters who I would be happy to see as newcomers but nobody else that I really "want", aside of some unrealistic choices that will never happen for obvious reasons.

low priority:
9-Galacta Knight (not echo) (but I want Adeleine more)
8-Dark Matter Blade (but I want Adeleine more)
7-Marx (but I want Adeleine more)

medium priority:
6-Cpt Syrup (will never happen)
5-Karate Joe (unlikely)
4-Geno (surprisingly likely!)
3-Explorer/Treasure Hunter Wario (with a moveset based on Warioland; unlikely)

high priority:
2-Classic Ganon (possible but we already got many bad guys recently)

WANT NOW:
1-Adeleine(&Ribbbon?) (one can dream(friend))

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

I'm against Banjo and Kazooie. They are redundant in flavor to Duck Hunt.

Skull kid: New Zelda villain with a lot of evidence backing him up.

What sort of evidence?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm against Banjo and Kazooie. They are redundant in flavor to Duck Hunt.

I don't much want them in(but I do respect the fact they are huge fanbases. I honestly am more interested in Steve?, Fulgore, and Master Chief myself), but they are nothing alike Duck Hunt. Like, at all.

They have nothing in common flavor-wise besides being two animals. And we have duo characters as is(Rosalina & Luma, Ice Climbers), which are completely separated and have nothing to do with each other beyond a slightly similar theme.

The abilities are extremely different, and Banjo, unlike the Dog, barely attacks while Kazooie does mostly everything. The dog and duck heavily work with each other for their various attack moves. They also have a very different personality, as they literally fist bump each other in the main trailer. Besides that, beyond different animations and character designs.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm against Banjo and Kazooie. They are redundant in flavor to Duck Hunt.

I hope this is a joke.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'm against Banjo and Kazooie. They are redundant in flavor to Duck Hunt.


What sort of evidence?

What??? Just because they'd be together with a slight amount of similarity, Duck Hunt is far more based on zoning, projectiles, and larger smash attacks. Duck Hunt is a completely different beast from how a Banjo Kazooie could play. Banjo Kazooie and Banjo Tooie give an absolute ton of moves to pull from in terms of abilities. There is no reason to think that they couldn't be completely unique and separate in playstyle from Duck Hunt.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

I Think theres gonna be 72 fighters in the final game

This is interesting, but you made a mistake about the Miis. They are obviously not present in this mode. During the showcase of the Showdown Battle, why would they put every announced characters yet but not the Mii? This is because they aren't playable in this mode. It's not like there isn't a space between Greninja & Palutena. The reason could be that they might be too random/game changer (or just because you need to create them first).

There is two numbers that fit the description : 72 & 84. We have actually 68 characters (excluding the Mii), so we will have either 04 or 16 newcomers. Though, having 16 newcomers sounds delusional.

Sadly, I think that we will have Shadow (Sonic) as a new Echo fighter. But hopefully, there are chances for us to get a new Zelda character that will represent an era that isn't represented yet (as seen in previous comment). Though, I have no ideas about the next two characters... Probably girls since we didn't get any girls as newcomers (except the Inklings). Where are the waifus Sakurai? Please, no more Pokemons.

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

I hope this is a joke.

Nay, it is a dissenting opinion.

What??? Just because they'd be together with a slight amount of similarity, Duck Hunt is far more based on zoning, projectiles, and larger smash attacks. Duck Hunt is a completely different beast from how a Banjo Kazooie could play. Banjo Kazooie and Banjo Tooie give an absolute ton of moves to pull from in terms of abilities. There is no reason to think that they couldn't be completely unique and separate in playstyle from Duck Hunt.

They have the same aesthetic and teamwork gimmick as duckhunt.

I don't like that they are so similar on first impression. Ness and Lucas look similar for example, but they represent the same series. Where as Duck Hunt and Banjo and Kazooie overlap but are supposed to represent games from different companies.

As far as moves go I'm basing my opinion on this hypothetical moveset.

Spoiler

Kazooie's attacks in the hypothetical moveset feel similar to duck hunt.
Looking across the whole roster it doesn't seem that they add in the way of unique moves. Clockwork Kazooie egg? Bowser junior has Mecha Koopa. Shooting eggs? Yoshi does that. Banjo seems to have elements of standard fighters. Koozies flying and charging attacks seem somewhat unique, but they don't stand out as representing the character enough.
I see a need for more original ideas for move sets but they would have to be unique enough roster wise to counter the similarity with duck hunt and justify their addition. Stuff related to Mumbo's abilities for example. If they are loved enough Sakurai will add them, but I'm worried that they wont be unique enough to justify them. There are many other characters that have a lot of originality to offer at a glance, and it would hurt to give those up.

 

[Starbound]

As far as moves go I'm basing my opinion on this hypothetical moveset.

Spoiler

Kazooie's attacks in the hypothetical moveset feel similar to duck hunt.

How is any of that like Duck Hunt?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Using mods does not show anything as "similar". Like, that shows how they're literally nothing alike in design.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Speculation at this point is really just a matter of how you interpret Sakurai's 'hope you aren't expecting too many newcomers' line. Are we just getting fewer unique newcomers this time around, with Echoes bringing it up to about as many or even more total newcomers than usual? Do the two categories together still add up to noticeably less than usual? Is he just drumming up hype by lowering expectations? Rather than try to pin down a definite roster due to the many ways this could be interpreted, I'll just go over anybody I think has a notable chance.

Unique Newcomers (First Party)
Paper Mario - A pretty popular pick for a new Mario character, and pretty much the frontrunner with Waluigi and (Captain) Toad out of the race. Popularity and relevance are both there, and he even already has a homestage, but he would 100% HAVE to be a unique newcomer, and much bigger characters would likely be a priority. Not likely, but a decent chance.

Skull Kid - With every other pick trapped in a snowglobe, and Majora's Mask repped by a new Assist Trophy, and his own still missing after the second wave of disconfirmations, Skull Kid feels more and more likely, especially with his known popularity, and his relevance thanks to the Majora's Mask 3D release close to the project plan finalization. Actually pretty likely.

Bandana Dee - As much as I support and believe in Bandana Dee, I feel it's necessary to avoid a tunnel vision mindset and actually look at how popular he was at the time of the project plan. Even though he's EVERYWHERE now, he hadn't had an exceptional amount of appearances by late 2015, so I feel like in a similar situation to Ashley, he's nowhere near as likely as we actually think. Regardless, Japan did still like him a lot at the time of the ballot, so we'll just have to see. 50/50 split on his chances.

Pokemon - Jeez, this is practically impossible to choose. Setting aside the validity of any 'leaks', although Smash tends to push a Pokemon from the newest generation, making Decidueye, Incineraor, or Buzzwole feel likely, this is simultaneously the Smash focused the most on delivering on fan desires, making Gengar, Sceptile, and Gardevoir feel just as relevant and possible. Christ, Pokemon honestly has way too many characters legitimately in the running to pick one, but one is practically guaranteed. (Zeraora more than likely isn't happening though)

Elma - Big question marks everywhere. I feel like they'd prefer to hold off on Xenoblade X representation and instead go for the more tantalizing Xenoblade 2 promotion later down the line. Additionally, Elma wasn't really all that popular as a pick until after the ballot, missing out on the biggest proving ground for popularity available before the project plan finalization. She honestly doesn't feel that likely, sadly.

Isaac - It feels bizarre to say this, but Isaac feels genuinely likely at this point. Between Ridley and K. Rool, we've somehow arrived in a timeline where Sakurai heeds the longest-running fan requests, and Isaac is certainly extremely high among fan desires. As proven by K. Rool, relevancy be damned. By sheer force of popularity and demand alone, Isaac feels pretty gosh darn likely. And that still feels weird to say.

Rhythm Heaven - WIth Chrom making the leap to playability, and Rhythm Heaven having been in some capacity developed for Smash 4, we're more than likely seeing the series turn up in some playable capacity. Similar to Pokemon, there's a bunch of characters to choose from, so take your pick- Chorus Kids, Karate Joe, Tibby, what have you, the series feels very likely to get a rep in the game.

Unique Newcomers (Third Party)
Lloyd Irving AND/OR Heihachi - Bamco's inclusion, Mii costumes, yadda yadda for both. Sakurai interview for Heihachi. Long-term notable popularity for Lloyd / Tales in general. One or the other feels pretty likely.

Geno - BREAK THE LIMITS, SAKURAI! CONFIRM THE FINAL MEMBER OF THE HOLY TRINITY OF SMASH SPECULATION!... Eh hem. Pretty likely.

Crash Bandicoot - Crash has had a strong presence as a desired 3rd-party for quite some time, and while his big jump to the Switch may have come a bit late to count for his chances here, I don't doubt Sakurai's ability to pull in whatever he wants to satisfy fans. The timing feels a bit off though, so I'd give him an unlikely for base game, but 50/50 for DLC.

Banjo-Kazooie - Similarly to Geno, BK has been planned by Sakurai himself in the past, as far back as Melee. With fan-demands in mind and Microsoft being open to the possibility, the bear and bird have a definite boost in possibility, but I wouldn't get my confidence too high up. 50/50 split

Echoes
Ninten - Incredibly easy to add, given his likely total resemblance to Ness, and quickly rounds out the trio of Mother protagonists. Populariry may be a bit lacking, but the desire to have all three Mothers represented exists. 50/50 split.

Black Shadow - Fan demand, push for more villains, keeps Falcondorf intact for losers like me who miss lagless Up Smash. 50/50 split.

Impa - Impa is the last remaining major character of the franchise to not show up in Smash, and her Skyward Sword design would work extremely well to utilize Sheik's moveset. Even better, Impa has had a definite popularity over the years. Likely.

Dixie Kong - As proven by Chrom, an Echo doesn't have to only take moves from the fighter they're based on- using Diddy as a base, but giving her a smaller version of DK's Up B (and even possibly Down B) utilizing her hair is entirely within the realm of possibility now. While K. Rool answers the cries of DK representation, Dixie on her own still holds a massive amount of popularity. Likely.

Shadow the Hedgehog - In a similar case to Chrom and possibly Dixie, Shadow can escape the cries of 'TWO Spindashes and a Spring', most likely with the utilization of a Teleport for Up Special, and as one clever user somewhere mentioned, a move similar to Dark Pit's arrow for Chaos Spear. However he's done, with Richter breaking down the conception of 3rd-party Echoes being unlikely, he's practically a guarantee at this point.

Isabelle - New face of Animal Crossing and a beloved character, but falls into the Animal Crossing trap of not being much of a fighter and not having much to pull on. By far the easiest method to remedy this is to have her as an Echo, and the only way I see her entering the fray. The Echoes we have so far proove a lot more effort is being put into them than we thought, and her animations can definitely be changed to reflect her personality. Likely.

Medusa - Once again, Echoes can defnitely have more effort in them than we thought, and with some tweaks to effect coloration, many of Palutena's moves fit Medusa perfectly- and again, the focus on villains seems notable, so a villain from Sakurai's adopted child seems fair. (And it means we can get Hades as a stage boss, which would make me BEYOND ROCK-HARD). On the other hand, her popularity is a bit lacking. 50/50 split.

Ken - 3rdpartyechoes.exe, orginalEchoFighter.jpg. Likely.

If you held me at gunpoint and I had to take a shot in the dark what the last few newcomers and echoes we would see are, I'd say-
Skull Kid
Pokemon
Isaac
Rhythm Heaven
Lloyd OR Heihachi
Geno
Impa
Dixie Kong
Shadow
Isabelle
Ken

(With HOPEFULLY Bandana Dee and Banjo-Kazooie making the cut)
EDIT: I would love to be surprised and see characters I didn't find as likely, and especially ones I didn't even mention.

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

Where are the waifus Sakurai? Please, no more Pokemons.

What about female pokemon?

How is any of that like Duck Hunt?

Up tilt, forward smash, pummel.
The moves don't have unique attributes. Banjo shows
Fox up smash, Corrin back air, cpt falcon down air, falcon down tilt, mario neutral air, vanilla jab combo, megaman up air, etc.

...Using mods does not show anything as "similar". Like, that shows how they're literally nothing alike in design.

....Support Bird and Mammal duo. The concept is the same. That's why the mod works out.

They have nothing in common flavor-wise besides being two animals.

They have ALOT of differences from Duck Hunt, with their characters and personalities being the biggest. They share SOME things with duckhunt, but unfortunately those things are defining characteristics.
But the main point is NOT the similarity to Duck Hunt, which is what everyone seems focused on, but whether or not they can bring anything new to the table. Like a new mechanic or moveset that isn't a rehash of moves we've seen before.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

....Support Bird and Mammal duo. The concept is the same. That's why the mod works out.

That's not really what the concept between B&K is. It's that Kazooie can be used as a weapon straight out and has properties of morphing into things. It's very very different from what you're saying. That's just a similarity in the concept, no different from the fact Ice Climbers and Rosalina & Luma are duos, despite the fact they actually are different concepts and play completely differently.

They have ALOT of differences from Duck Hunt, with their characters and personalities being the biggest. They share SOME things with duckhunt, but unfortunately those things are defining characteristics.
But the main point is NOT the similarity to Duck Hunt, which is what everyone seems focused on, but whether or not they can bring anything new to the table. Like a new mechanic or moveset that isn't a rehash of moves we've seen before.

Yeah, they can easily bring a crapload of new stuff. Duck Hunt's mechanic is specifically the Light Gun games. Not "duo". They're actually a trio to begin with. One is just offscreen.

Let me tag a bigger expert on it; JamesDNaux

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

I really feel like a lot of people are sleeping on Lloyd. He comes from an enormous franchise, and you shouldn't underestimate the impact of ease of implementation - most of his moveset is already in the game, and a good deal of him is already modeled. It'd take only slightly more work than most echos, and we'd get a whole new series representative out of it.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Banjo-Kazooie and Duck Hunt only have surface level similarities, mammal and avian duo, comparing them is like comparing K. Rool and Bowser because they're both reptiles, or 80% of the roster that are all humans. Are people seriously trying to make this out like "too many swordsmen"?

It's simply ridiculous to imply that the two duos would share any similarities moveset-wise. First of all, the duck attacks via quick succession of snaps, Kazooie attacks via pecking, and even if you want to call that similar, Kazooie is far larger than the duck and would provide more range to Banjo as a result. Adding onto that, most of Kazooie's moves are beak barges that lunge the duo in a given direction, along the ground, dropping from the air, drilling downwards, etc.

Most of Duck Hunt's other standard attacks involve the dog throwing his torso around, spinning, etc., which blatantly wouldn't work for Banjo, who isn't a quadruped. Duck Hunt intrinsically has moves that are entirely made up for Smash, the closest thing to the actual Duck Hunt game being his Smash attacks, while their standards are just built around their build and their specials are just taken from other games entirely, which again, the bear and bird can't do.

Banjo and Kazooie on the other hand, have a plethora of moves tailor made for them from their home series such that they needn't have the odd kick or punch thrown in to fill out their moveset. Kazooie has an arsenal of different egg types for a varied projectile unlike anything that exists within Smash, certainly far removed from an exploding can and a throwing disk. Even their recovery would likely either work like Pit's (either his Brawl or current one would work) rather than Duck Hunt's. Banjo can swing his backpack around for a disjointed hitbox that doesn't resemble anything Duck Hunt does and can physically manhandle Kazooie and swing her around for an even further reaching hitbox, which a dog with no thumbs certainly can't and doesn't do.

Rather than continue to bloat this post with the oodles of potential Banjo and Kazooie have that no one has, certainly not Duck Hunt, I'll just link to the thread which contains a moveset that's nowhere near as good as what Sakurai could come up with, but is still a serviceable account of their abilities.

 

[QrowinSP]

What are your guys's opinions on echo characters with different heights than their base? I'm trying to argue Viridi as a palutena echo, and everyone is hung up on the height. But in melee, Young Link was made by making slight alterations to Link's code, and it was a huge time saver. Is that not essentially the spirit of echo fighters? What prevents Sakurai from doing the same thing again?

 

[GoodGrief741]

What are your guys's opinions on echo characters with different heights than their base? I'm trying to argue Viridi as a palutena echo, and everyone is hung up on the height. But in melee, Young Link was made by making slight alterations to Link's code, and it was a huge time saver. Is that not essentially the spirit of echo fighters? What prevents Sakurai from doing the same thing again?

Considering Young and Toon Link aren’t labeled as Echoes of Link (or of each other), it’s safe to say that they’re a different beast. You should look at the Echo Fighters we know of so far.

 

[QrowinSP]

Considering Young and Toon Link aren’t labeled as Echoes of Link (or of each other), it’s safe to say that they’re a different beast. You should look at the Echo Fighters we know of so far.

They aren't echoes because they had been considered individual characters for several games and had since been luigified. But in Melee, they were essentially echoes. They served the exact same purpose, after all: reusing a character's code and making slight alterations in order to add a new character.

So what precludes echo fighters from doing this? Why would Sakurai stop himself if he saw the opportunity to make a new character by copying a character's moveset and making them a bit smaller? Just because we haven't seen something officially called an echo fighter that did that? We have a sample size of like, 6, and even then Chrom already defied what we thought an echo fighter could be.

 

[GoodGrief741]

They aren't echoes because they had been considered individual characters for several games and had since been luigified. But in Melee, they were essentially echoes. They served the exact same purpose, after all: reusing a character's code and making slight alterations in order to add a new character.

So what precludes echo fighters from doing this? Why would Sakurai stop himself if he saw the opportunity to make a new character by copying a character's moveset and making them a bit smaller? Just because we haven't seen something officially called an echo fighter that did that? We have a sample size of like, 6, and even then Chrom already defied what we thought an echo fighter could be.

They didn’t serve the exact same purpose, nor was their addition ‘reusing a characters code’. Both characters required new skeletons, models, and hitboxes, and you can’t make those by changing a parameter from an existing character. The moves, conceptually, are the same, yes, but given the size and shape difference between the characters there is not much to reuse.

Compare that with the Echo Fighters we know of as of yet; you’ll see they all match proportions of the characters they Echo, even to a fault. That is because they are able to reuse the skeleton, maybe with slight adjustments (Daisy appears to be slightly shorter than Peach), but new animations.

Of course, this is all bound to change, we’ve got nothing to base our speculation on aside from comments from Bill Trinen and the existing Echoes. However, given what we do know, it seems like a stretch to assume Viridi could be Palutena’s Echo.

(Not to mention Echoes so far appear to be pretty popular picks - barring Richter - and while I love Viridi and she was certainly one of Uprising’s breakouts, she probably didn’t get that level of support)

 

[QrowinSP]

They didn’t serve the exact same purpose, nor was their addition ‘reusing a characters code’. Both characters required new skeletons, models, and hitboxes, and you can’t make those by changing a parameter from an existing character. The moves, conceptually, are the same, yes, but given the size and shape difference between the characters there is not much to reuse.

Huh, I didn't know this. So am I to believe that Young link was created independently of Link from the ground up? As were Pichu and Pikachu?

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I doubt height or hitbox size has anything to do with if a character is considered an echo or not.
They could scale the model a bit, and you have a smaller echo character who, in proportion, is the same as the bigger one.

I think that it's more about how different they play. If they have even a single move that behaves differently, then they aren't echo characters anymore.
This is why Doc. Mario is not considered an echo of Mario, despite using basically the same model as him.

In Young Link's case, I think that having a walljump is enough to consider him a separate character from Link and Toon Link. Also, Toon Link acts differently, he has different properties, for example, when you do the aerial down attack, he will stomp down fast, while Link (both links) just faces the sword downward and freefalls with regular gravity.

This said, I think that if they want, they can potentially make an echo fighter with slighty different proportions than the original character, unless the differences are so big that it would change its playstyle completely.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I speculate 3 final unique newcomers and who knows the amount of echos. The CSS in all the games had some form of logic to them (yes. Even the non-DLC smash 3ds one)

They tend to be symmetrical with holes in logical places based on the screen.

So I propose the screen will look like this:

The First Row is all N64
Second Row is all Melee
Third Row is all "main" Brawl.
Forth Row is the last of Brawl and the beginning of Smash 4.
Firth Row has Duck Hunt, but is all the DLC and newest characters.

IT looks nice. Is smooth. Has purpose.

So, 3 more unique newcomers. As for Echos, I think it falls to who they finished and will not have a pretty CSS. we are not getting 84, which is 6 pure rows.

As for newcomers, I expect Bandanna Dee, llyod and Geno. all from ballot results.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

Lloyd, Geno

You have my vote.

 

[SamDunk]

I personally don't think there's any way to "calculate the roster size" based on what we've seen so far in menus and such. A bunch of people tried to do that with Smash 4 and in the end, the screen just changed shape a bunch when new characters were announced. Plus, I don't think Sakurai makes his decisions based on stuff like that. The selection screens will adapt to accommodate whatever number of characters make it into the game.