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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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blueneuronDOTnet

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Lloyd is like... a one shot character of a mildly popular game that came out about a decade and a half ago.

Heihachi is the face of 3D fighters and a gigantic fighting game franchise; the biggest in terms of games sold in all of fighting games actually that continues to grow in popularity (hell it was the #1 topic on Twitter worldwide just Sunday!)
Lloyd is the poster child of Tales, the biggest traditional JRPG franchise after Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Bigger than Persona, bigger than Yakuza, bigger than Paper Mario, bigger than Kingdom Hearts. It's bigger than Ni no kuni, Disgaea, Chrono, Yo-Kai Watch, Golden Sun, Bravely Default, Atelier, Xeno, Suikoden, and Etrian Odyssey combined, and then some. It has spawned two dozen mangas, several animes, some movies, drama CDs, an annual festival hosted in stadiums that over 20k people attend, and was considered for a ride at Universal Studios Japan alongside franchises like Final Fantasy, Sailor Moon, and Detective Conan.

He's not a one shot, as he has appeared in more than ten games. His game is more than just mildly popular, given that ToS and ToS 2 alone moved almost 5 million units. His latest release was in 2016, just two years ago, and was at the peak of its hype right around the time the Smash Ultimate project plan was being worked up.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Lloyd is the poster child of Tales, the biggest traditional JRPG franchise after Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Bigger than Persona, bigger than Yakuza, bigger than Paper Mario, bigger than Kingdom Hearts. It's bigger than Ni no kuni, Disgaea, Chrono, Yo-Kai Watch, Golden Sun, Bravely Default, Atelier, Xeno, Suikoden, and Etrian Odyssey combined, and then some. It has spawned two dozen mangas, several animes, some movies, drama CDs, an annual festival hosted in stadiums that over 20k people attend, and was considered for a ride at Universal Studios Japan alongside franchises like Final Fantasy, Sailor Moon, and Detective Conan.

He's not a one shot, as he has appeared in more than ten games. His game is more than just mildly popular, given that ToS and ToS 2 alone moved almost 5 million units. His latest release was in 2016, just two years ago, and was at the peak of its hype right around the time the Smash Ultimate project plan was being worked up.
And even then, he still is in Tales of Symphonia 2 as part of his normal appearances. Though I'd count Tales of VS as well. The other ones are more cameos. I'm not counting remakes.

He's pretty much the most well known(with Cress being less well known) and ToS appearance on the GameCube was a pretty huge thing. It's a big reason why games got translated more as it took the world by storm. Sakurai even considers Lloyd the poster boy for it too.
 

Johnknight1

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Lloyd is the poster child of Tales, the biggest traditional JRPG franchise after Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Bigger than Persona, bigger than Yakuza, bigger than Paper Mario, bigger than Kingdom Hearts. It's bigger than Ni no kuni, Disgaea, Chrono, Yo-Kai Watch, Golden Sun, Bravely Default, Atelier, Xeno, Suikoden, and Etrian Odyssey combined, and then some. It has spawned two dozen mangas, several animes, some movies, drama CDs, an annual festival hosted in stadiums that over 20k people attend, and was considered for a ride at Universal Studios Japan alongside franchises like Final Fantasy, Sailor Moon, and Detective Conan.

He's not a one shot, as he has appeared in more than ten games. His game is more than just mildly popular, given that ToS and ToS 2 alone moved almost 5 million units. His latest release was in 2016, just two years ago, and was at the peak of its hype right around the time the Smash Ultimate project plan was being worked up.
Again... Lloyd is a mildly popular star of a middling series that isn't quite old enough to have a "retro" or "classic" reputation (like Mega Man and Castlevania get the benefit of). You're listing all these accomplishments like they are something someone thinks of when they are considering which characters to add to a game.

Tales isn't a series people list or think of when they think of impactful series, whereas Tekken absolutely changed the scope of gaming history, with its' influence in changing arcade culture, essentially ushering in the era of 3D Fighters and bringing them to the mainstream, and how huge it was for making PlayStation a brand. And all of those games involve Heihachi Mishima as the/a main character in the forefront.

You're essentially saying Lloyd Irving will get the "Cloud treatment" over Heihachi, which doesn't make sense unless you have bias towards Lloyd since Lloyd is not anywhere near the status of Cloud or Heihachi (and Heihachi is absolutely around the level of recognition of Cloud).

"5 million" is a mark you used to signal "oh this series is big and Lloyd's games are popular." But the Tekken series has passed with numerous times. Tekken 3 and 4 both sold over 7 millions copies each (none of this is counting the money made in arcades either), and every Tekken game continues to do great business, be a big merch seller, and be one of the biggest forces in the FGC.

tl;dr: Lloyd isn't quite on that level; Heihachi is.
 
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blueneuronDOTnet

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Again... Lloyd is a mildly popular star of a middling series that isn't quite old enough to have a "retro" or "classic" reputation (like Mega Man and Castlevania get the benefit of). You're listing all these accomplishments like they are something someone thinks of when they are considering which characters to add to a game.
Tales debuted on the Super Famicom over 20 years ago, which counts as retro in my book. Not that that's really relevant.

Tales isn't a series people list or think of when they think of impactful series
You're definitely letting your bias show here - Tales is a massive franchise in the east. I don't see how you can claim that a series with a 20 year history, which has spawned over a dozen animes and mangas, more than three dozen drama CDs, two feature-length movies, countless escort titles, and an annual festival hosting tens of thousands of people isn't impactful, specially when it's one as influential as Tales, which pioneered elements of everything from the LMBS to genre blend and affinity mechanics. This series is so big that it literally had its own version of Smash Bros., Tales of VS.

Whereas Tekken absolutely changed the scope of gaming history, with its' influence in changing arcade culture, essentially ushering in the era of 3D Fighters and bringing them to the mainstream, and how huge it was for making PlayStation a brand. And all of those games involve Heihachi Mishima as the/a main character in the forefront.
I'm not saying that Lloyd is bigger than Heihachi, simply that he has a solid shot of making it in - Sakurai explicitly mentioned that he had trouble trying to implement Heihachi, while Lloyd has both modeled assets and the bulk of his moveset already in the game. Add to that the fact that Bamco is co-developing Smash Ultimate and that the Tales series has a new mothership entry due for announcement right around the time Smash Ultimate will be dropping, and you'd be nuts to count him out.

You're essentially saying Lloyd Irving will get the "Cloud treatment" over Heihachi, which doesn't make sense unless you have bias towards Lloyd since Lloyd is not anywhere near the status of Cloud or Heihachi (and Heihachi is absolutely around the level of recognition of Cloud).
I don't know what you mean by "the Cloud treatment". He might not be near the status of Cloud or Heihachi (in the west, at least), but we're still talking about a series that was big enough to be considered for a ride in Japan's biggest amusement park. Heihachi may have more pull with the gaming crowd, but Lloyd has more pull with the japanese audience at large thanks to the diverse nature of Tales media.

"5 million" is a mark you used to signal "oh this series is big and Lloyd's games are popular." But the Tekken series has passed with numerous times. Tekken 3 and 4 both sold over 7 millions copies each (none of this is counting the money made in arcades either), and every Tekken game continues to do great business, be a big merch seller, and be one of the biggest forces in the FGC.
5 million is the number I used to counter your point that Lloyd is "only mildly popular". Tales has sold over 20 million units through mothership titles alone, and that's not counting the absurd number of auxiliary content (animes, mangas, movies, arcade machines, the festival, and an absurd amount of merchandise). You can compare numbers all you want, but at the very least, you'll have to acknowledge that Lloyd (and the Tales series at large) is more than popular enough to make it into the game.
 
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DNeon

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Just throwing my predictions in, playing it pretty safe and not trying to predict absolutely everything:

Newcomers:
K. Rool
Bandana Dee
Elma
Ashley

Echoes:
Isabelle
Dark Samus
Dixie Kong

Then there's the Vergeben leak so I might as well include:
Simon Belmont
Incineroar
Steve (not fully leaked but I think he'll be playable if they're putting Minecraft in).
 

Graufa

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I'm surprised so few people are predicting a character from Breath of the Wild, if you don't count Toon Link we haven't received a newcomer from the Zelda series since Melee and after all the work they put into BotW I would be surprised if we don't see anyone from that game, and not just a slightly changed Link.


When it comes to who they will reveal I'm guessing Simon Belmont or Shadow for the boring safe pick 3rd parties, though deep inside I'm still keeping out hope for Rabbid Peach.


On a side note if they ever want to add an ARMS character either at launch roster or DLC I hope it's Min Min since the character has the most moveset potential out of that franchise as of right now.
 

SweetestB0i

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Accidentally posted this twice bc I thought the website crashed. Ignore plz.
 
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toonito

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Updating my speculation list

Dixie Kong

Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven)

Mach Rider

Geno (Square Enix rep)

Heihachi/Jin (or another Namco rep)

Gen 7 Pokemon: Vergeben stated that it isn't Decidueye, Mimikyu, or Lycanroc so I'm eyeing Incineroar. Every Pokemon except Ivysaur stands on two legs so that may lower the chances of Primarina, the Tapus, and Silvally.

Simon Belmont: allegedly confirmed so Vergeben seems to have valid sources at this point.

Dark Samus

Bandana Dee

Fire Emblem 3 Houses Character (Teacher aka Byleth)

*New Picks*

Isabelle (Animal Crossing): solely due to Vergeben.

Chrom?: I just remembered Ike is missing his Chrom alt and IIRC he mentions fighting another day. A bit weak but it's something. If true it would be the 1st time since Melee an old and new FE character could be introduced in the same game.
post direct speculation updates

Dixie Kong
Chorus Kids
Geno
Heihachi/Jin (or another Namco rep)
Gen 7 Pokemon: Mimikyu's out
Bandana Dee
Teacher aka Byleth (FE)
Isabelle

*New Picks*
Shadow: With Simon also coming to Smash with Richter the precedent of a 3rd party receiving 3 characters (Konami) as well as a 3rd party franchise receiving an Echo (Castlevania) is now there. Also unlike Mimikyu, Shovel Knight, Ashley, and Zero he still has yet to be deconfirmed as an assist trophy. I feel a lil more comfortable with this pick.

*Personal Wishlist*
Ken Masters (Street Fighter): See Shadow the possibility of Ken coming over to Smash is now at 10%
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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Btw, Heihachi is ****ing boring. The only reason Yoshimitsu isn't the beating-you-over-the-head-with-it obvious pick is that his signature self-impalement doesn't really fit in Smash.
 

DNeon

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Well RIP Ashley, I thought this might have been her time. Kinda sucks when mages are my favourite archetype. Oh well, I have bigger fish to fry on my most wanted list.

Another interesting developement though: Sakurai said he wanted to reveal all characters before the game comes out.
 

SweetestB0i

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https://youtu.be/P3G5_rwvIi8
Finally, they added the only two characters I care about. Snake and K Rool are in smash. They can add any character now and I couldn't care less. They could add Goku and you wouldn't hear any complaints out of me. I might as well just sell all of my other smash games because I'm not even going to touch them after ultimate comes out.
 

DNeon

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Finally, they added the only two characters I care about. Snake and K Rool are in smash. They can add any character now and I couldn't care less. They could add Goku and you wouldn't hear any complaints out of me. I might as well just sell all of my other smash games because I'm not even going to touch them after ultimate comes out.
You already posted that in this thread dog...
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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With k rool and Ridley I don't care now who fails or gets in I got my dream roster complete

Now

I'm going to official lock hemp for the roster I was right it is the ballot winners for smash ultimate newcomers k rool is the proof for this
 
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Ze Diglett

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Well, I'm happy. K. Rool fans got their wish, not to mention every newcomer we got today basically blows the whole "muh relevancy" argument completely out of the water. It's now abundantly clear more than ever that fan favorites are the key focus when it comes to newcomers, which makes me really glad as that's what I've been arguing in favor of for months. Now we just need Geno to complete the trifecta...
 
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Marcello691

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To the one who argued with me and said to K.Rool is not coming back.... He's back!!!! And he will probably appear in the next dk games as well. K.Rool deserves so much to be in smash and I'm so happy.
Ashley got deconfirmed, so seems like I was right about her not deserving a spot in the roster.
To be honest I don't know which characters are going to be shown next, because almost every important Nintendo character is in.
My guesses:

Dixie Kong ( probably an original newcomer and not an echo as she was not shown in k.rools reveal trailer)

Isabelle (because vergeben leaked her)

Heihachi (he got costume in smash wii u and maybe one of the left third party characters but I think he's very very booooring)

Pokemon Gen7 rep ( I heard it's going to be Incineroar, but I hate all gen7 starters, was hoping for mimikyu or bewear but they got deconfirmed unfortunately)

As for Geno... I'm not sure, he has no relevance and unlike k.rool he isn't as important and known. He got a costume in smash 4 but Ashley got too and she still is a trophy. But I don't mind if he get's in.

I'm hoping for more Nintendo characters than third party!
 
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cybersai

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My guess now is Dixie and Isabelle are likely characters, even if they're both echoes. Hopefully Dixie is a hybrid. Gen 7 pokemon is also pretty much confirmed.

Other than that I have no idea who to expect now. Geno would be one of the last heavily requested old characters, I don't know if he'll finally make it this time. I also still want a new Zelda rep after so long, I'd just settle for an Impa echo.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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If I had to guess, I'd say Skull Kid, Shadow, Ken, Isabelle, Bandana Dee, and Incineroar are the most likely newcomers. Pretty lame, as Lloyd Irving, Skull Kid, Geno, Isaac, Vyse, E. Gadd, Layton are the only ones I want. It'll take at least two of these to earn my money.
 

smashingDoug

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I really want to see a Zelda newcomer what isn’t a different version of Link, Zelda or Ganon

I’m also thinking 8 unique newcomers and 8 echo newcomers, we are at 4 each at the moment
 
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Oblivion129

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I have an idea.

You know how characters are being killed in trailers? They can't stay dead. They'll have to come back. I'm guessing the final trailer brings them back somehow. Which newcomers/franchises have the power to do that?
 

cybersai

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I have an idea.

You know how characters are being killed in trailers? They can't stay dead. They'll have to come back. I'm guessing the final trailer brings them back somehow. Which newcomers/franchises have the power to do that?
Goku wishing them back with the Dragonballs of course, lol
 

RouffWestie

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Well, I'm happy. K. Rool fans got their wish, not to mention every newcomer we got today basically blows the whole "muh relevancy" argument completely out of the water. .
THIS is the best thing I got out of the direct. Sakurai didn't deny K. Rool a spot on the roster over such an insignificant thing. The fact of the matter is that he was a major villain of a major franchise who was and is still popular among many Nintendo fans, and him not appearing in a recent game would have been an really arbitrary reason to keep him out.
 

BlazGreen

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I have a few theories based on what I've seen today.

1. There will be another Smash Direct and general Direct to reveal characters before the game releases.

Nintendo said they have more games to announce before the end of the year so we can expect a Direct in the next couple of months. There's also a lot more questions to be answered such as the mystery mode and online so I can see there being another Smash Direct as well.

2. Heroes vs villains seems to a be a theme of the game.

Given the fact that we've had three villains announced already (which is a pretty big jump from the zero we had in Smash 4) as well as the K.Rool trailer highlighting the protagonists fighting their respective antagonists, I believe villains will have a much bigger presence newcomer wise than any previous Smash game. To give a few examples, I believe characters like Black Shadow (echo) and Dr. Eggman have a much greater chance now.

3. There might be more newcomers than we initially thought.

We've had 8 characters announced in 2 months with 4 more until release. Sure I don't expect a blowout every month but I think the likelihood of at least 8-10 completely new characters and a similar amount of echo fighters isn't as impossible as I thought after E3.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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2. Heroes vs villains seems to a be a theme of the game.

Given the fact that we've had three villains announced already (which is a pretty big jump from the zero we had in Smash 4) as well as the K.Rool trailer highlighting the protagonists fighting their respective antagonists, I believe villains will have a much bigger presence newcomer wise than any previous Smash game. To give a few examples, I believe characters like Black Shadow (echo) and Dr. Eggman have a much greater chance now.
.
I will immediately point out skull kid.

He's a villian

He survived assist trophy onslaught twice

Probably did amazing on the ballot

and it may actually be possible the moon might be taking his place a assist trophy
 
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Lord-Zero

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Heroes VS Villains, huh...
There are a few FE villains that could play that role: Hardin, Garon, Medeus, Gharnef, Validar, Walhart, Black Knight, Ashnard, Grima, Ashunera.
 

Graufa

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I just want to point out that if it's true that custom moves are gone then that would explain why we are getting more echo fighters. They don't want to foolishly waste that programming time so they are reusing them for echos. As for mii fighters it was already said that you can choose between sets of moves. However, there was one more character that had that sort of thing and that was Palutena, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see an echo fighter from Kid Icarus.


Please correct me if I'm mistaken on anything here.
 

AquaSol

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I was really sure on Mimikyu, but RIP :(. Glad that K. Rool got in, though! I also never expected there to be so many echoes, we’ve gotten three already! My new prediction list is now this:

Incineroar/Ultra Beast/Gen 8
Skull Kid
Elma
Bandana Dee
Geno (can’t believe he may actually be likely this time around)
Chorus Kids
Isabelle
Shadow
Dixie Kong (as a weird echo-hybrid thing like Chrom)
 

Roy_Boy Color

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Kind of bummed out Shovel Knight was an AT, but still happy he was in the game at least. Anyways, these are my Post-Direct predictions.
My Predictions:

Newcomers:
-Skull Kid
-Geno
-Bandanna Dee
-Travis Touchdown (Very small chance, but I think it might actually happen)

Echo Fighters:
-Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong)
-Shadow (Sonic)
-Black Shadow (Captain Falcon~ He would probably be like Ganondorf in Wii U)
-Isabelle (Villager)

I know Black Shadow and Travis Touchdown may be a bit of a long shot, but if the game is going to be mostly fan service, I think this might be their "Ultimate" Chance at being fighters.
 

nintenplayer

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With all these fanservices Sakurai is doing, I think Geno is a given now. I mean, K. Rool got in, so why not Geno.

I think it's safe to expect another direct coming in a month or so, and I expect to see 5 newcomers again; 2 brand new ones, and 3 echo fighters.
You might say: "But Sakurai said don't expect too many newcomers", but I think that excludes echoes. Without echoes, we only got like, 4 more newcomers so far, so I think 2 more would be quite reasonable.
 

cybersai

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At this point the only guarantee is a new Pokemon rep.

And after that I'd probably say Dixie. Anything else could go either way.
 

GamerGuy09

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Here's my two cents:

I think we'll get 9 more fighters before release, with 5 being new fighters and 4 being echo fighters.

New Fighters:
  • Bandana Dee
  • Isaac
  • Rayman
  • Geno
  • Banjo Kazooie/Steve depending on which Microsoft Rep they want
Echo Fighters:
  • Isabelle (Villager Echo)
  • Shadow (Sonic Echo)
  • Ken (Ryu Echo)
  • Medusa (Palutena Echo)
 

BigShad

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I dunno if I'm interrupting any sort of previous discussion, so sorry if I am but... ya'll, Kunio for Smash. He's the grandfather of beat-em-ups, the guy before Double Dragon, all his Famicom games were very titular in the East, and any games that came to the West became instant classics like River City Ransom and Super Dodgeball on NES. If you take a look at all of his game tracks too, there's a ton of potential for rearrangements. Best of all, he still lives today through Arc System Works. If you played his games, you know how perfect he could fit into Smash, and would make a great obscure rep like Ice Climbers in Melee or Pit in Brawl.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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So the Smash 4 Mii costumes came in waves, and the fourth wave specifically included these characters:
K. Rool and Chrom have both made it in, Flying Man is (still) a stage hazard. That leaves Lloyd Irving and the Black Knight.
A quick refresher on who those two are:

Black Knight
The Black Knight is a major antagonist and Ike's rival in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. Regarded by both his allies and his enemies as virtually invincible, in addition to his immense strength and talent as a swordsman, he wields goddess-blessed armor and his sword Alondite, the counterpart blade to Ike's ultimate weapon, Ragnell. Ike first encounters the Black Knight early in Path of Radiance, when he witnesses the death of his father at the hands of the Black Knight in a duel. Ike's desire to defeat the Black Knight and avenge his father's death is one of his primary motivations as he fights in the war against Daein.​

Lloyd Irving
Lloyd Irving is the main protagonist of Tales of Symphonia, the fifth major release in the Tales series. Once a simple country boy, Lloyd is thrust into the outside world following a raid on his village. The Chosen of Regeneration is one of his closest friends, and after being exiled from his hometown of Iselia, Lloyd joins her on the Journey of Regeneration. Although the young warrior himself plays no part in the prophecy, he is still a strong optimist and a fair leader.​
With that in mind, I'd say that the Black Knight would make for a great FE villain pick, and could either be a character/echo himself (given that Fire Emblem has only received Chrom thus far), or serve a similar role as Dracula.

Lloyd seems less likely to be featured as a stage hazard or assist trophy as he is in a weird spot where his series has yet to be featured in Smash beyond the Mii costume, yet it also seems too successful (over 25 million in core title sales alone). He would, however, would be a great character fit for Smash (specially since a lot of his moves are already in the game), and the arte system would ensure that he'd be very unique compared to other sword fighters. He's one of the poster boys of the Tales franchise and the protagonist of its most successful entry (also the first to break out in the west).

For those not familiar with Tales, it is the biggest traditional JRPG franchise after Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Bigger than Persona, bigger than Yakuza, bigger than Paper Mario, bigger than Kingdom Hearts. It's bigger than Ni no kuni, Disgaea, Chrono, Yo-Kai Watch, Golden Sun, Bravely Default, Atelier, Xeno, Suikoden, and Etrian Odyssey combined, and then some. It has spawned two dozen mangas, several animes, some movies, drama CDs, arcade machines, gambling machines, an entirely absurd amount of merchandise, and an annual festival that sees more than 20k visitors every year, and was considered for a ride at Universal Studios Japan alongside franchises like Final Fantasy, Sailor Moon, and Detective Conan. The series is absolutely enormous, and also just so happens to have a new mothership title due for announcement right around the time Smash Ultimate drops.

The point I'm trying to make is that the fourth wave of Mii costumes looks like it might feature one or two more fighters, one of which might very well stem from an as-yet unrepresented franchise owned by one of Smash Ultimate's co-developers. I might just be dreaming, but I thought it worthy of a write-up.

Cheers to NessAtc for pointing this out to me, and check out The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread if you'd like to find out more about these two potential newcomers.
 
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EarlTamm

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Black Knight
The Black Knight is a major antagonist and Ike's rival in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. Regarded by both his allies and his enemies as virtually invincible, in addition to his immense strength and talent as a swordsman, he wields goddess-blessed armor and his sword Alondite, the counterpart blade to Ike's ultimate weapon, Ragnell. Ike first encounters the Black Knight early in Path of Radiance, when he witnesses the death of his father at the hands of the Black Knight in a duel. Ike's desire to defeat the Black Knight and avenge his father's death is one of his primary motivations as he fights in the war against Daein.
With that in mind, I'd say that the Black Knight would make for a great FE villain pick, and could either be a character/echo himself (given that Fire Emblem has only received Chrom thus far), or serve a similar role as Dracula.
I will say, although Chrom was shockingly not a pure Ike echo, I don't see the Black Knight being an Ike echo. Having 3 FE echo's feels a little too far, and I actually think he would be more liked as his own thing. I could see him being a sort of variation on Little Mac's concept, except executed in a very different way. BK would be slow and his jumping would be terrible due to the weight of his armor. But the trade off is that he has a ton of super armor and his armor makes launching him a difficult task, to the point that he basically has Bowser's super armor until a certain percent before people are even able to knock him an inch off the ground. It would certainly be a unique gimmick and fit the image of the unstoppable beast that is the Black Knight. Do I think he is likly. Not that much. Will people still rage at another FE character. Yeah, but it won't be as bad due to him being a fan favorite, being from the Tellius games, and being another villain.
 

Sabrewulf238

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I think we're going to get at least another two opportunities for character reveals. A regular Nintendo direct and another Smash direct close to release. (but probably not too close, since Sakurai may want to be ahead of the leakers)

Though I would expect the regular Nintendo direct to reveal one character at the end....the jury is out on how many we'd get in a Smash direct.

I wouldn't rule out one other reveal similar to the Robin/Lucina reveal, but I wouldn't count on it either. The first two I mentioned seem like fairly safe bets.
 
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