Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Porky is more prominent in Mother 3, where he's the straight up main antagonist, while he's just a supporting antagonist in Earthbound.

He's still heavily prevalent in both games though, and has more to do with Ness than he does Lucas.

 

[Momotsuki]

One of the most brilliantly disturbing things about Porky is that he sees himself as carrying on Ness' legacy. His actions in the Nowhere Islands, carrying them out because he can; he sees it as following the vision of that kid he antagonized yet secretly looked up to. Ness was not an evil person and yet Porky saw nothing but evil in him. And he had nothing but respect for the evil he percieved.
I'd love to see him playable, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[I.D.]

Monolith Soft doesn't even own KOS-MOS. How the heck is she their mascot?

Very simple, because they treat her as such:

 

[RileyXY1]

He's still heavily prevalent in both games though, and has more to do with Ness than he does Lucas.

His Smash appearances primarily use his appearance in Mother 3, where he's much more prominent.

 

[Nemuresu]

Very simple, because they treat her as such:

What an odd thing to see Reiji and Xiaomu there. They've never been in a Xenoblade game, yet they're still in a commemorative picture.

 

[Peeton]

MH is one of those characters that I really would rather not get. They don't really appeal to me personally and seem rather bland in my eyes, but hey they have a lot of weapons and stuff like that so it's not like they'd be bad as a concept, in fact, they work well. With that said I'd be very surprised if we didn't get a single Capcom rep in dlc considering all the options they have, but if it were MH I would've wished we'd have just gotten them in base game. Also with sephiroth in the game I'm having more doubts about Dante and Phoenix never seemed like the major get Nintendo would look for in terms of dlc, which leaves MH as the easiest sell for Capcom. Base game would've been nice though

Yeah I don’t really want them since that probably means a DMC character isn’t getting in, but maybe Dante and Nero could get costumes? DMC1 Dante in particular has so much drip and being able to dress up like him would be a dream come true. Well, for me anyway

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Who is basically Namco Bandai's answer to Morrigan. The character themselves is popular, but their series is dead and unlikely to be resurrected. Plus, Xenoblade exists now.

Morrigan and KOS-MOS being from obscure IPs is pretty much where the similarities end.

KOS-MOS comes from a franchise that never did well and Namco eventually gave up.

Darkstalkers is a heavily influential franchise that sold decently well and created many standards of the fighting genre and even some stuff globally used in most video games period (such as being able to cancel the animations of normal attacks in general rather than just special cancels for faster gameplay, which has become a core aspect of virtually any game with a combat system since Darkstalkers), but simply doesn't get enough love because Capcom decided to fully focus on the fighting series that did better, even taking all of Darkstalkers' innovations and integrating them into the Street Fighter formula, making a revival of the franchise utterly pointless unless they try to gamble on reinventing the wheel.

tl;dr Namco killed Xenosaga because it was a flop, Capcom killed Darkstalkers just because they could

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

His Smash appearances primarily use his appearance in Mother 3, where he's much more prominent.

And? That doesn't mean that it wouldn't make sense for him to represent Earthbound, or for his appearance to be from Earthbound, especially since the one from Mother 3 has already established to be super humungo.

What an odd thing to see Reiji and Xiaomu there. They've never been in a Xenoblade game, yet they're still in a commemorative picture.

I believe it's honoring all of the the Xeno series, which is why KOS-MOS is there as well. Honestly, I don't think just these ensemble artworks make her the mascot of the company, especially since they don't own her.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

The only thing regarding a MH figher is that I don’t think his/her challenger pack will be based on MH Rise. Sakurai said before that he need to fully play its game before he design the fighter (around 9-12 months before). In case the game wasn’t at that time in the stores (like Byleth case), he asks the developed for an unfinished copy.

I don’t know if Capcom will be generous enough to give Sakurai and his team (also taking into consideration the pandemic) an early build of that game. I think that if MH comes out, he/she will be based on the previous games.

 

[N3ON]

Sure they're not choosing the characters, but it's not like they have no voice at all. They've been extremely beneficial to Nintendo and have developed two mainline Zelda games for them. If they requested from Nintendo to add a specific Xeno character then I think Nintendo wouldn't throw that request in the garbage with no hesitation. Now whether Nintendo accepts their request or not is a whole other thing.

Maybe Nintendo wouldn't dismiss the request, but there's no reason to believe it would occur in the first place. At least not any more than from another studio under their umbrella. There are so many steps that need to align in this hypothetical scenario that it shouldn't be the basis on which KOS-MOS's chances are evaluated. It's a long shot at best.

What if Camelot asks for Isaac or Waluigi? What if HAL asks for another Kirby character? What if Retro Studios asks for Dixie? Or what it Monolith just asks for Rex instead? All those studios are beneficial and longstanding Nintendo partners or subsidiaries. At least all those characters are in-house.

This is related to the "what if Namco asks for another character?" line of thought, except even though that's also unlikely, at least they're the developer. Monolith is just a random studio among the many studios somehow involved in Smash that people have somehow chosen to be the one that gets a little demanding. In reality it's people looking at the outcome of getting KOS-MOS and then working backwards to reason how it would happen, instead of asking whether the situation is all that likely in the first place.

Maybe, but it's something concrete. Like Nintendo selling official merch of her is also something concrete, and her appearing as a playable character in Nintendo games this decade is also something concrete. That's far more than you can say for smash darlings like Geno and Isaac.

And therein lies the crux really. Because merch and a cameo are something, but something is literally just not nothing, and hardly enough to be actually likely.

Fwiw, Geno and Isaac have both had their popularity amount to inclusion or re-inclusion in Smash this decade. Not as playable, and I don't think they're going to be playable, but that's something actually in the related field. As of now, they're in the game, and KOS-MOS isn't.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only thing regarding a MH figher is that I don’t think his/her challenger pack will be based on MH Rise. Sakurai said before that he need to fully play its game before he design the fighter (around 9-12 months before). In case the game wasn’t at that time in the stores (like Byleth case), he asks the developed for an unfinished copy.

I don’t know if Capcom will be generous enough to give Sakurai and his team (also taking into consideration the pandemic) an early build of that game. I think that if MH comes out, he/she will be based on the previous games.

If Monster Hunter is Challenger Pack 9 or 10, most we might see from Rise is maybe an alt and the Wirebug as a special move, kinda like how Joker's grappling hook is something from the then-at-the-time-unreleased Royal version of Persona 5.

 

[I.D.]

Morrigan and KOS-MOS being from obscure IPs is pretty much where the similarities end.

KOS-MOS comes from a franchise that never did well and Namco eventually gave up.

Darkstalkers is a heavily influential franchise that sold decently well and created many standards of the fighting genre and even some stuff globally used in most video games period (such as being able to cancel the animations of normal attacks in general rather than just special cancels for faster gameplay, which has become a core aspect of virtually any game with a combat system since Darkstalkers), but simply doesn't get enough love because Capcom decided to fully focus on the fighting series that did better, even taking all of Darkstalkers' innovations and integrating them into the Street Fighter formula, making a revival of the franchise utterly pointless unless they try to gamble on reinventing the wheel.

tl;dr Namco killed Xenosaga because it was a flop, Capcom killed Darkstalkers just because they could

I really don't want to get this conversation dragged into a character war but I'm almost 100% positive the first Xenosaga title alone outsells the entirety of Darkstalkers.

 

[Shroob]

I mean, if CP9 is Capcom, even though I think it's Monster Hunter, doesn't have to be at all. Capcom's one of those companies that have soo many IPs that it can basically stand toe-to-toe in the IP department.


Like, we could get:

Monster Hunter
Dante
Phoenix Wright
Chun-Li
Arthur
Morrighan
Amaterasu

And the list goes on. Some more likely than others sure, but Capcom is the one company I expect more from.

 

[RileyXY1]

And? That doesn't mean that it wouldn't make sense for him to represent Earthbound, or for his appearance to be from Earthbound, especially since the one from Mother 3 has already established to be super humungo.


I believe it's honoring all of the the Xeno series, which is why KOS-MOS is there as well. Honestly, I don't think just these ensemble artworks make her the mascot of the company, especially since they don't own her.

The Mother 3 appearance is the one most people want to see, as that depiction of him is more memorable in the fandom, mostly due to his appearance as a boss in Brawl.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I really don't want to get this conversation dragged into a character war but I'm almost 100% positive the first Xenosaga title alone outsells the entirety of Darkstalkers.

That's kinda hard to say when Capcom doesn't even release sales figures for Darkstalkers, but it did well enough to have comics, mangas and two separata animated shows.

Maybe it's not a million-selling franchise, we can't know for sure, but it definitely did well enough back in the 90s and early 2000s for Capcom to actually give it some attention.

 

[Momotsuki]

In general I've been very pleasantly surprised by how not-cynical and not-shilly most of the DLC so far has been, or at least felt. So I can't say I'm totally feeling a lot of the rationale here. Say whatever you want about FF7R but Sephiroth's inclusion feels super honest.

Only real examples of blatant corporate rubbish I can recall in the DLC so far is Luminiary being Hero's default (which is like, not really a huge deal) and of course, Bile. - three actual good character picks later and I'm still trying to wash it outta my mouth.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I legit saw someone say Sephiroths inclusion is like a fake fan mod, like, why

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I legit saw someone say Sephiroths inclusion is like a fake fan mod, like, why

It's just proof of how absolutely ridiculous Ultimate's roster has become

 

[I.D.]

Maybe Nintendo wouldn't dismiss the request, but there's no reason to believe it would occur in the first place. At least not any more than from another studio under their umbrella. There are so many steps that need to align in this hypothetical scenario that it shouldn't be the basis on which KOS-MOS's chances are evaluated. It's a long shot at best.

It's no more of a longshot than most smash darlings, yet Kosmos happens to be the one who gets accused of being "pushed above her station" from one side while being accused of being "literally impossible" from the other, the RTC dichotomy of somehow being the least likely and most overrated simultaneously, nothing more than a logical nonsense coming from a place of emotion.
How are those Golden Sun trademarks going btw?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I legit saw someone say Sephiroths inclusion is like a fake fan mod, like, why

I've seen something like that too, but they meant it in a "this is so unbelievable" kind of way and not "this quality is so bad."

 

[SharkLord]

I legit saw someone say Sephiroths inclusion is like a fake fan mod, like, why

From what I've heard, there were a good deal of Brawl fan mods for the guy back in the day. Makes sense; Final Fantasy 7 sounds like something that would've been pretty popular around that time.

 

[ahemtoday]

I legit saw someone say Sephiroths inclusion is like a fake fan mod, like, why

I presume it's just 'cause Sephiroth was a popular character to mod into Brawl back in the day. I don't have the context, but I don't think they meant anything by it.

 

[Momotsuki]

It's just proof of how absolutely ridiculous Ultimate's roster has become

Imagine showing it to somebody in the 1920s.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Imagine showing it to somebody in the 1920s.

"What's Smash?"
"What's a Switch?"
"Who the **** is Mario?"

 

[I.D.]

That's kinda hard to say when Capcom doesn't even release sales figures for Darkstalkers, but it did well enough to have comics, mangas and two separata animated shows.

You were so certain that it sold better though. Now it's "hard to say"?
If your new measure of success are stuff like getting anime, Xenosaga had that too.

 

[Momotsuki]

"What's Smash?"
"What's a Switch?"
"Who the **** is Mario?"

Take it back just a bit further, you'll find yourself being clobbered to death with a rock and cooked for a family's dinner.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I legit saw someone say Sephiroths inclusion is like a fake fan mod, like, why

Ah, they must be referring to this little gem. I remember when Cloud sounded like Ike and Sephiroth sounded like Marth.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You were so certain that it sold better though. Now it's "hard to say"?
If your new measure of success are stuff like getting anime, Xenosaga had that too.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Darkstalkers invented a lot of stuff that became industry standards for either the fighting genre or gaming as a whole, many of which are even in Smash suck as block canceling (or out-of-shield options as Smash fans call it) or the normal canceling I mentionned earlier, so even if it's dead and likely never coming back, its influence is still felt on more than just Morrigan appearing on everything

 

[SharkLord]

Take it back just a bit further, you'll find yourself being clobbered to death with a rock and cooked for a family's dinner.

"Yo check it out this is what gaming will be like in 2020!"
Anomalocaris noises

 

[Momotsuki]

If Reimu ends up making the cut then Ultimate is just an elaborate Brawl mod, I'm sorry.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Imagine showing it to somebody in the 1920s.

Imagine showing it to a caveman in the stone age and getting your head bashed in with a club.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Mother 3 appearance is the one most people want to see, as that depiction of him is more memorable in the fandom, mostly due to his appearance as a boss in Brawl.

From what I've seen this seems to be false. All mentions of Porky as a playable character that I can find either use the Earthbound design (with or without the mech).

Even so, that wouldn't stop them from using the Earthbound design if that's what worked better, and fans probably wouldn't be upset either way because it would mean that Porky's in the game.

Honestly, I think they'd use his Earthbound Design even if he was being tied to Mother 3 since his Mother 3 appearance is incredibly sickly, and can't quite portray the personality that he's known for without the help of his stage.

It would also make sense for Porky's stage to be The Devil's Machine since all of the other places where Porky takes center stage (New Pork City, Onett, Fourside) are already stages.

 

[I.D.]

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Darkstalkers invented a lot of stuff that became industry standards for either the fighting genre or gaming as a whole, many of which are even in Smash suck as block canceling (or out-of-shield options as Smash fans call it) or the normal canceling I mentionned earlier, so even if it's dead and likely never coming back, its influence is still felt on more than just Morrigan appearing on everything

Xenosaga's influence is also felt though. You might have heard of a little series called Xenosword... or something like that

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Xenosaga's influence is also felt though. You might have heard of a little series called Xenosword... or something like that

Ah yes, mentionning how it has influence by naming a game made by the same people who decided to keep the word "Xeno" in their game's title.

Surely, that means it's got more influence to gaming as a whole than Darkstalkers.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Xenosaga's influence is also felt though. You might have heard of a little series called Xenosword... or something like that

Wait, so its influence is... spawning a more popular series that sold better and plays completely different to it?

That... doesn't make a lot of sense, tbh.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Xenosaga's influence is also felt though. You might have heard of a little series called Xenosword... or something like that

Ah yes, mentionning how it has influence by naming a game made by the same people who decided to keep the word "Xeno" in their game's title.

Surely, that means it's got more influence than Darkstalkers.

Honestly it doesn't really matter. The original statement was that KOS-MOS and Morrigain were similar in that they outlived their series. It's a factual statement, and doesn't really say anything about the worth of either franchise.

 

[N3ON]

It's no more of a longshot than most smash darlings, yet Kosmos happens to be the one who gets accused of being "pushed above her station" from one side while being accused of being "literally impossible" from the other, the RTC dichotomy of somehow being the least likely and most overrated simultaneously, nothing more than a logical nonsense coming from a place of emotion.

At this point, yes. But when all the characters were still alive, no.

Because fan demand, in which Geno and Isaac reside towards the top, are factors a lot more relevant to the potential inclusion of characters than merchandise and cameos in unrelated games. Those aren't qualities pertinent for Smash. Demand is.

Geno and Isaac are limited to only be able to get in in a very specific way at this current juncture, but at least they perform well in that way.

What elevates KOS-MOS to not be a character of absolutely middling chance? It's not fan demand, it's not general recognition, it's not intra-company success, and that's why you see people leaning on factors like a studio that doesn't call the shots suddenly being given the power to get characters in or blowing up the significance of a figure and a cameo to make her case.

People talk about her cult appeal. She does have some but that's literally what drives the other two, but only more successfully, at least in terms of this fanbase. And cult appeal in the Smash fanbase is more beneficial than cult appeal in some other fanbase.

But it's not even really about Geno or Isaac. Those characters are, at this point, likely to be out of the running. It's about all those other characters not out of the running, which best KOS-MOS in one or multiple factors, including the ones you're putting importance on.

How are those Golden Sun trademarks going btw?

They're going well, thanks. All filed and everything.

 

[Ivander]

Very simple, because they treat her as such:

Feels empty without Xenogears.

Morrigan and KOS-MOS being from obscure IPs is pretty much where the similarities end.

KOS-MOS comes from a franchise that never did well and Namco eventually gave up.

Darkstalkers is a heavily influential franchise that sold decently well and created many standards of the fighting genre and even some stuff globally used in most video games period (such as being able to cancel the animations of normal attacks in general rather than just special cancels for faster gameplay, which has become a core aspect of virtually any game with a combat system since Darkstalkers), but simply doesn't get enough love because Capcom decided to fully focus on the fighting series that did better, even taking all of Darkstalkers' innovations and integrating them into the Street Fighter formula, making a revival of the franchise utterly pointless unless they try to gamble on reinventing the wheel.

tl;dr Namco killed Xenosaga because it was a flop, Capcom killed Darkstalkers just because they could

No. The first Xenosaga was a success. It did well. Heck, Namco even mentioned that it was commercially successful internationally, selling 1 million copies worldwide which at the time was not an easy feat for a non-Square RPG. So no, KOS-MOS did not come from a franchise that never did well.
You are on the money that Namco did kill the series though, not because it was a flop, but once again, the creator, like Xenogears, tried to be really ambitious with Xenosaga with Xenosaga originally going to have 5 or 6 episodes.
But supposedly, Namco was not as ambitious and kept trying to be in control to try and make the series shorter. It didn't help that after the first Xenosaga, they somehow expected Xenosaga II to have the same success, which it didn't by only having around 50% of it's projected sales. Didn't help that Xenosaga 2, which while it had a decent story, but suffered from long cutscenes, a really slow and different gameplay from the first game and had the characters look alot more realistic compared to the first game.
Basically, Xenosaga 2 failed because of Namco tried to be in control and yet had high expectations. This basically messed with alot of the story and whatnot and forced the creators to end it at Episode 3. While Xenosaga 3 did fix alot of the issues from Episode 2, from making the gameplay much faster and having a good middle ground between Episode 1 and Episode 2's artstyles/models, because of them having to wrap the story up which led to forced developments and some characters' getting some drastic personality changes and Xenosaga 2's reception, this ended in Xenosaga 3 doing as bad as Episode 2. So yeah, Namco did kill the series, but not because it was a flop, but because they kept trying to be in control.

 

[Speed Weed]

Imagine showing it to a caveman in the stone age and getting your head bashed in with a club.

time to pull out my magnum opus post

Imagine travelling back in time to 1692, showing a picture of Steve in Smash to a group of villagers, and being accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake

 

[I.D.]

Ah yes, mentionning how it has influence by naming a game made by the same people who decided to keep the word "Xeno" in their game's title.

Actually, keeping the "Xeno" brand was none other than Iwata's decision.

Wait, so its influence is... spawning a more popular series that sold better and plays completely different to it?

That... doesn't make a lot of sense, tbh.

I don't see how. When asked about Xenosaga's legacy, I merely have to point at Xenoblade. It's that simple and obvious. Without Xenosaga, there is no Xenoblade.

But the only reason the Xenoblade series exists today is because of those three games, I think. The experience we acquired from making Xenosaga was an immense asset for us.