Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[YezenIRl]

Especially with the mentality that Ridley and K. Rool were “enough” and with them we supposedly have everything Nintendo related we could ever need. Sure, those were some big spots, but to act like they were the only 1st Parties that ever mattered annoys a lot of fans of other 1st Parties.

I think that is pretty much the debate.

Not necessarily the "you got Ridley and K. Rooland they were enough" part, but the question of whether we actually need any more first parties. Please understand that I recognize this as a totally subjective opinion, but to me it genuinely does feel like we have all the first parties we need. Save for Waluigi (who is this unique case where the line between meme and authenticity is blurred) the first parties people still talk about (Dixie, Edelgard, Captain Toad, Rex, Sylux, Porky, Elma, Impa, Bandana Dee) just feel to myself, and I'm sure to many others, like scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like, sure, those characters could be fun, now that we have basically everyone else and these guys are sort of just... next in line...

The fighter pass being third party makes sense because it doesn't feel like going down to who is 70th in line. As far as third party characters go, we still have the potential to get characters from unrepresented/iconic series who have as much hype behind them as Snake, Cloud, Mega Man, or Ryu. That just isn't possible anymore in the realm of first party. All we can get with first party is the next character on a virtually never ending list.

That said. Happy Mask Salesman. Make it happen Sakurai.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Decided to make another mockup based on MKHT's template, this time staring the Last Dragonborn/Dovahkiin! Went for a more generalist Elder Scrolls approach with this one.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I think that is pretty much the debate.

Not necessarily the "you got Ridley and K. Rooland they were enough" part, but the question of whether we actually need any more first parties. Please understand that I recognize this as a totally subjective opinion, but to me it genuinely does feel like we have all the first parties we need. Save for Waluigi (who is this unique case where the line between meme and authenticity is blurred) the first parties people still talk about (Dixie, Edelgard, Captain Toad, Rex, Sylux, Porky, Elma, Impa, Bandana Dee) just feel to myself, and I'm sure to many others, like scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like, sure, those characters could be fun, now that we have basically everyone else and these guys are sort of just... next in line...

The fighter pass being third party makes sense because it doesn't feel like going down to who is 70th in line. As far as third party characters go, we still have the potential to get characters from unrepresented/iconic series who have as much hype behind them as Snake, Cloud, Mega Man, or Ryu. That just isn't possible anymore in the realm of first party. All we can get with first party is the next character on a virtually never ending list.

That said. Happy Mask Salesman. Make it happen Sakurai.

Well, I’ll strongly disagree with you on pretty much every single one of those 1st Parties you listed being described as “scraping the bottom of the barrel”. The only ones I’ll agree with you on are Porky and Sylux, in which the only reason people are asking for them is because they don’t have spirits (which should really be a sign that they're not important enough in the first place, not that they would have a chance to be playable).

I would certainly describe the Happy Mask Salesman as “bottom of the barrel”.

 

[Nap_]

I won't say that first party characters are the bottom of the barrel (at least, not the main factor for the low hype) the thing is that most of them are already there as spirits or ATs and fighter pass comes with character, stage, music and spirits, and not only the fighter, the franchise is already represented. Waluigi, Dixie, Ashley, or Eldergad sounds redundant because music and stage are not something new, Springman or Isaac are ATs, Rex was left outside in Sakurai words.. And yes, none of them are bigger than things like Doom, Banjo or Dragon Quest. The pass is full of big shots right now. Also, there's no rumors or serious leaks for first time.
It means nothing about who will be next but for me explains the current state of the speculation.

 

[YezenIRl]

Calls several highly requested, deserving, and important characters scraping the “bottom of the barrel”.

lol that's the joke. These "highly requested, deserving, important characters" are mostly just seen as next in line now that we have a nearly 80 character roster. If you imagine a 120 character roster, the characters who are "highly requested, deserving, important characters" become Astral Chain protagonist, Kamek, Takamaru, Captain Rainbow, and the Happy Mask Salesman.

It's not wrong to want any character. It's just important to recognize where we are at with regards to Nintendo characters. When I say bottom of the barrel, I don't mean they are literally at the bottom of all possible Nintendo characters, just that they aren't big names anymore. Edelgard is no Marth. Sylux is no Samus. But someone like Hero or Doomguy is.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

lol that's the joke. These "highly requested, deserving, important characters" are mostly just seen as next in line now that we have a nearly 80 character roster. If you imagine a 120 character roster, the characters who are "highly requested, deserving, important characters" become Astral Chain protagonist, Kamek, Takamaru, Captain Rainbow, and the Happy Mask Salesman.

It's not wrong to want any character. It's just important to recognize where we are at with regards to Nintendo characters.

I don’t think I’d ever put some of the characters in that new list in the same category as some of the characters you listed initially, but you do you.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Decided to make another mockup based on MKHT's template, this time staring the Last Dragonborn/Dovahkiin! Went for a more generalist Elder Scrolls approach with this one.

I see what you did there with Paarthurnax's spirit battle.

 

[YezenIRl]

I don’t think I’d ever put some of the characters in that new list in the same category as some of the characters you listed initially, but you do you.

But some you might. I'm just using vague examples here.

I would certainly describe the Happy Mask Salesman as “bottom of the barrel”.

lol obviously. I like to mention HMS as a joke/wtf character, like Piranha Plant. Not like he is a plausible suggestion, or a character I feel entitled to.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think that is pretty much the debate.

Not necessarily the "you got Ridley and K. Rooland they were enough" part, but the question of whether we actually need any more first parties. Please understand that I recognize this as a totally subjective opinion, but to me it genuinely does feel like we have all the first parties we need. Save for Waluigi (who is this unique case where the line between meme and authenticity is blurred) the first parties people still talk about (Dixie, Edelgard, Captain Toad, Rex, Sylux, Porky, Elma, Impa, Bandana Dee) just feel to myself, and I'm sure to many others, like scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like, sure, those characters could be fun, now that we have basically everyone else and these guys are sort of just... next in line...

The fighter pass being third party makes sense because it doesn't feel like going down to who is 70th in line. As far as third party characters go, we still have the potential to get characters from unrepresented/iconic series who have as much hype behind them as Snake, Cloud, Mega Man, or Ryu. That just isn't possible anymore in the realm of first party. All we can get with first party is the next character on a virtually never ending list.

That said. Happy Mask Salesman. Make it happen Sakurai.

I respect your opinion, but I couldn't be more against it. Nintendo has tons of wonderful characters, both famous and obscure, so saying that including them would be scraping the bottom of the barrel honestly feels somewhat like an insult to the fans of those many wonderful games. I know it isn't intended as such, but that's how it reads. There are still many Nintendo series that have no representation. Is Advance Wars suddenly not a long-running Nintendo franchise just because the layman wouldn't know a character from it? Does Chibi-Robo cease to be a beloved Nintendo mascot because the series is over? Should Rhythm Heaven never get in Smash because hardcore gamers don't care about it, even though it's one of Nintendo's ever-popular franchises? Do the franchises that already have a character not deserve more because we've crossed some arbitrary barrier where now all of a sudden Nintendo characters don't matter anymore?

If that's the stance people take, then Nintendo might as well give up on making new IP. In the current era of gaming, unless a franchise has many studios working on titles simultaneously, they'll only get one game per console generation. The days of a new IP getting several titles for one console are over - no more three main Mario games for the NES. So if you want a new IP to flourish, you need to support it. Not every game will be a Splatoon level success from the get-go - nor should it be. And yet I see people saying that Arms doesn't warrant a character because it 'only' sold 2 million copies. If new and fresh IP like Arms or Astral Chain don't get the support they need, then they won't become the next Mario or Zelda and we'll stay in a rut. Earthbound wouldn't be acknowledged as a masterpiece nowadays without it having a place in Smash. F-Zero and Star Fox wouldn't have people continuously clamoring for revivals without Smash. Fire Emblem is nothing without Smash. People don't constantly ask for Pikmin 4 without Smash. So to suddenly act like we've crossed a boundary and Nintendo characters need to be at least as recognizable as Mega Man to not be 'bottom of the barrel' is a very absurd idea to me.

Part of this is just the fact that people will defend whatever direction Smash takes and whoever gets in and doesn't get in (bringing back the Arms example, it sold 'only' 2.1 million, when Persona 5 sold 2.7 million with the backing of an established IP, so clearly there's different standards at play here). It is certainly not meant with disrespect or disdain. And credit where credit is due, Smash has done a mostly great job with Nintendo representation, so many people already have their most wanted and are now expanding their horizons to whatever characters they hadn't considered.

But it's also very dangerous to do so because to disregard Nintendo's colorful and varied history of experimentation (one that is perhaps only matched by Capcom) and to hold it to impossible standards that go far beyond what previous ones have been, is basically a big message to stop making those kinds of games. I don't know about you, but I love too many of those games to want them to stop being made.

And if anything, Toad's not in Smash and he's more famous than 98% of the current roster and 100% of any possible third party characters that could join so the 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' thing is kind of weird when we seem to be missing characters that are over the lid.

 

[ze9]

If the new 1st party characters have to be Edelgard and the AC cops, bring on the 3rd parties I say.

Yeah, Nintendo won’t use a character in smash to sell games again... oh wait...
https://www.smashbros.com/en_AU/fighter/72.html

Yeah, not like they made a point of having him/them represent as much of Dragon Quest as a whole as possible.

 

[Korar]

I respect your opinion, but I couldn't be more against it. Nintendo has tons of wonderful characters, both famous and obscure, so saying that including them would be scraping the bottom of the barrel honestly feels somewhat like an insult to the fans of those many wonderful games. I know it isn't intended as such, but that's how it reads. There are still many Nintendo series that have no representation. Is Advance Wars suddenly not a long-running Nintendo franchise just because the layman wouldn't know a character from it? Does Chibi-Robo cease to be a beloved Nintendo mascot because the series is over? Should Rhythm Heaven never get in Smash because hardcore gamers don't care about it, even though it's one of Nintendo's ever-popular franchises? Do the franchises that already have a character not deserve more because we've crossed some arbitrary barrier where now all of a sudden Nintendo characters don't matter anymore?

If that's the stance people take, then Nintendo might as well give up on making new IP. In the current era of gaming, unless a franchise has many studios working on titles simultaneously, they'll only get one game per console generation. The days of a new IP getting several titles for one console are over - no more three main Mario games for the NES. So if you want a new IP to flourish, you need to support it. Not every game will be a Splatoon level success from the get-go - not should it be. And yet I see people saying that Arms doesn't warrant a character because it 'only' sold 2 million copies. If new and fresh IP like Arms or Astral Chain don't get the support they need, then they won't become the next Mario or Zelda and we'll stay in a rut. Earthbound wouldn't be acknowledged as a masterpiece nowadays without it having a place in Smash. F-Zero and Star Fox wouldn't have people continuously clamoring for revivals without Smash. Fire Emblem is nothing without Smash. People don't constantly ask for Pikmin 4 without Smash. So to suddenly act like we've crossed a boundary and Nintendo characters need to be at least as recognizable as Mega Man to not be 'bottom of the barrel' is a very absurd idea to me.

Part of this is just the fact that people will defend whatever direction Smash takes and whoever gets in and doesn't get in (bringing back the Arms example, it sold 'only' 2.1 million, when Persona 5 sold 2.7 million with the backing of an established IP, so clearly there's different standards at play here). It is certainly not meant with disrespect or disdain. And credit where credit is due, Smash has done a mostly great job with Nintendo representation, so many people already have their most wanted and are now expanding their horizons to whatever characters they hadn't considered.

But it's also very dangerous to do so because to disregard Nintendo's colorful and varied history of experimentation (one that is perhaps only matched by Capcom) and to hold it to impossible standards that go far beyond what previous ones have been, is basically a big message to stop making those kinds of games. I don't know about you, but I love too many of those games to want them to stop being made.

And if anything, Toad's not in Smash and he's more famous than 98% of the current roster and 100% of any possible third party characters that could join so the 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' thing is kind of weird when we seem to be missing characters that are over the lid.

This is a fantastic post, but the one thing i have a small gripe with is saying FE is nothing without smash. i mean, it is nothing in the west without smash, i'll admit, but in japan it was pretty popular even prior to melee, from what i have heard at least.

 

[GoodGrief741]

This is a fantastic post, but the one thing i have a small gripe with is saying FE is nothing without smash. i mean, it is nothing in the west without smash, i'll admit, but in japan it was pretty popular even prior to melee, from what i have heard at least.

True, true. Still, with how the franchise would have ended were it not for Awakening's great sales, who knows where it would be now if not for Smash.

The point I was trying to make is that without Smash, FE might remain Japan-exclusive to this day. Not only would we have missed out on some amazing games, but suggestions to have it in Smash would be met with the same reception that, say, Starfy gets from some people.

 

[Nquoid]

would be met with the same reception that, say, Starfy gets from some people.

*insert obligatory "HE'S TOO SMALL" comment*

 

[TheYungLink]

Edit: this post was made in response to the general "there are no real big Nintendo names left to include" sentiment that had sparked discussion earlier.

If the next Smash was going to take a new direction previously unseen in the past Smash entries, I think, for the Nintendo characters, it could work as half Smash 4 (recent characters from recent games + a focus on casual titles) and half "General Nintendo History".

The "General Nintendo History" approach would be to look through the large amount of Nintendo games released throughout the years, without caring too much about whether they were phenomenons and simply on whether they were well-liked at the time / even today or if they were good games despite flying under the radar. I'll list a few examples.

• People already brought up the Wars games that Intelligent Systems made, for example, and while the series is currently on hiatus and people aren't frothing at the mouths for another game or for their characters to be in Smash, the Wars games are still pretty important to Nintendo and codified console strategy games before Fire Emblem came out, plus a military commander sounds like a fun concept for a moveset in Smash.
• Or how about a character from Nintendo's visual novel phase back in the early Famicom era? You could have Ayumi Tachibana considering how beloved Famicom Detectice Club is even today among the Japanese, or better yet either Donbe & Hikari from Shin Onigashima or Goku & Chao from Yuyuki, both of which were very beloved for being a part of the Famicom Fairytales series even putting aside memes on the possible inclusion of the latter pair. In general, a bunch of important-yet-Japanese-only titles could get in this way, which could liven up the roster a bit and hopefully even encourage Nintendo to localize these games for the rest of the world.
• Then there are the cult hits, games that were never financially successful but are great enough games that it feels sad that there aren't enough people that know about them. Hajimari No Mori is a hidden gem of a Super Famicom adventure game that one could download from the Nintendo Power service (you took a Super Famicom flash cart that could download ROMs of new games from special kiosks), but because of releasing in 1999 and due to the way it was distributed, it's fairly unknown even in Japan, which is a shame considering how well made the game is. That's just one example; another is certain people not knowing that Treasure and PlatinumGames each made a game for Nintendo, which you think more people would know considering both studios' pedigree for shooter / action games respectively, yet because both of their games slipped under the radar, neither game is as celebrated as they should be. For reference, Treasure made the Sin & Punishment games, while PlatinumGames made The Wonderful 101. Both protagonists, Saki Amamiya and Wonder Red, would be very fun in Smash as they could reflect the shooting / melee combo gameplay of the former and the horde-managing unite powers of the latter.

(Hang in there, almost done ;P )

While this approach would mostly be to fill in the gaps on certain series and games that are considered great but have missed the Smash boat in the past, it could also apply to series and games that already have playable characters in Smash. Zelda could have new characters from older games as well as whatever the newest one would be, as characters like Midna (most popular partner (Navi, Fi, etc.) for Link) and Ganon from the 2D games would be pretty well-received even today. Fire Emblem in particular would benefit from this, as popular but old characters like Caeda and Lyn (from the first and seventh games respectively) could get another chance to shine on the battlefield, both being some of the most enduringly popular characters in the series but not uber-popular like Ridley or K. Rool were.

Lastly, some of the doubters here would be skeptical as to how this approach would even work, as it's not as financially profitable as "appeal to newer players (Smash 4)" or "giving fans what they have loudly demanded for years (Smash Ultimate)". To that, I say that Nintendo could change their marketing tactics this time. Instead of making super hype action packed trailers that get people as excited as possible, they take a step back and do little overviews of each new character in a mock interview style. The general public may not know who Mike Jones is, but the character, in a little CG movie, could answer questions about what game they're from, why people like their game, what their abilities in Smash are / what their playstyle is, all peppered with little jokes and gameplay segments edited in.

That's right. Essentially, what I'm getting at is...you know those "Meet the [blank]" videos Valve put out for the Team Fortress 2 playable character classes? I think those are a fantastic fit for this new hypothetical direction in Smash character trailers. A mix of action, comedy, and cross-character interaction, all from the perspective of each character giving an interview. I imagine this new type of trailer becoming as viral as the ones for Smash 4 and Ultimate did, while simultaneously educating people unfamiliar with each character (which would be a fair amount) what they're about.

The only problem, and I admit this is a big one, is that they couldn't get too clever or specific with any jokes, as these mock interview trailers would need to be understood in a variety of languages, so the actual "talking" would need to be toned down in favor of other solutions like pantomiming or mostly using body language and generally being visual explanations of each character.

Alright, that's my faffing done.

 

[YoshiandToad]

The bottom of the barrel argument has always just come off as a way for people who have already gotten the characters they want to shut people up who haven't to me.
Especially since I think some of the current first party roster are more 'bottom of the barrel' than characters who starred in their own successful games like Dixie Kong or Captain Toad.

The Ice Climbers for example is hardly an example of a must have Nintendo character and their gimmick, which is used to justify them by everyone, doesn't even come from their own game. You only ever play as a singular climber. You could replace them with any game with a two player mode and it'd make as much sense.
I read on these forums a month ago that Ice Climbers Melee reveal was met with one person in the audience Sakurai was showcasing them to recognising them, and whilst I have no idea if that's true or not, it's pretty believable.

Dr. Mario is a character that was originally requested as an alt costume for Mario but was made into a fully fledged character to pad out the roster.

Three Links. Three. Link obviously deserves to be playable but three of him?

Sheik's entire contribution in Ocarina is playing a harp to teach Link a few songs. Hardly a major NPC compared to the likes of Midna or Skull Kid.
If not connected to Ocarina of Time's Zelda, they'd have been mostly forgettable...and even now it's mostly Smash keeping Sheik's memory alive.

 

[N3ON]

I kinda feel where Yezen is coming from, though I can only meet him like halfway. "Bottom of the barrel" is a misleading way to describe it, since the inference is more "there's no one worse than what's left" rather than "what's left is a far cry from what's there already". And Yezen does touch on that. But I do think you can squeeze one more batch of Nintendo newcomers out of what's left before you really reach the ranks of "wait, who is this?" (for the typical person, not the Nintendo encylopedias Smash speculation turns us into).

I mean, you've got Waluigi, Dixie, Spring-Man, and a few Zelda characters. There's also Toad, Tom Nook, and first-gen Pokemon, but those probably won't be included, so it's hard to even count them. Rhythm Heaven is also a thing worth representing, but no characters from it are a big deal. After that, you still have options - there's, like, Krystal and Bandana Dee, who are popular, but are also fourth banana in b-tier series. At this point you're certainly dealing with waning prevalence. Then you have Isaac, who's super popular, but, without a new game, doesn't really do anything for a wider audience.

Then you have the series with fluid casts. The Pokemons, FEs, and Xenoblades. These will provide a more perpetual cache. However, despite Pokemon not having a problem with prevalence, they do limit their potential by always opting for the new flavour. The Pokemon du jour may have it over some other additions, but still doesn't hold a candle to not only many on the roster, but a good handful of options they're simply not choosing because they're not from the most recent gen. Like, any number of first-gen mons would be more prolific than Incineroar, for example. FE and Xenoblade can offer a consistent protagonist, but if the most well known Nintendo newcomers are coming from FE and Xenoblade, you're in a spot of trouble, as far as what you have to work with.

Also, it's true new IPs can replenish depleting ranks, but Smash includes big IPs more quickly that Nintendo creates them, if that makes any sense. Nintendo doesn't make them with sufficient frequency to perpetually have a new batch of big names ready by the next Smash. Typically you only have one, maybe two. It's fine when the wealth of existing series still has big names to float, but when they start getting to the dregs, it's going to be the new IPs and the third-parties to do the heavy lifting.

You also have to keep in mind what's being argued. It's not that Nintendo doesn't have anything to work with - Nintendo has a stable of characters plentiful enough to keep Smash going perennially. It's not that Chibi-Robo or Andy or Starfy or whoever isn't a "good" character, it's that they can't offer as much in terms of recognition. Characters are what move the product, and the whole conceit of Smash was to use well-known characters to draw people in. Quality as they might be, potential as they might have, characters like Saki and Wonder Red and Ray MK just aren't that well known. Including one or two would be a nice little nod, but overall you're better off going with third-parties people recognize, if that's all you have to offer.

So, let's make a roster:
- Waluigi
- Dixie
- Spring-Man
- Skull Kid/Midna/Tingle/Impa/other Zelda character
- Rhythm Heaven character
- Bandana Dee
- Krystal
- Isaac
- new Pocketman
- new Marth
- new Xenowaifu
- new IP
- new IP
- weird Sakurai pick no one expected
That's fourteen original Nintendo newcomers, the same as Smash 4.

And that's a pretty decent selection. But where do you go after that, in terms of first-party? The bottom six you can reuse, and there will still be Mario and Zelda characters from which to draw... but then you just have to cross your fingers for successful new IPs, otherwise your headliners are Captain Toad or Paper Mario, a Zelda character that shows up on occasion, and a Pokemon from Gen whatever. It's a little anemic.

Of course it's still Smash. So when people call it a celebration of video games, that's not the whole truth. It's two celebrations - one of video games in general, and one still of Nintendo. So, do you need any specific remaining Nintendo character? Not really. We don't need any character at this point. But do you still need Nintendo characters in general? Well, yeah. It's Smash. You can't ever lose the Nintendo aspect, but eventually the encroaching third-parties will probably have to take the wheel so you still have someone recognizable leading the newcomer charge.

 

[ze9]

Yeah I feel like after they bring in Dixie, Toad, Waluigi, Skull Kid, Bandana Dee and Isaac we'll really be in bottom of the barrel territory, where no choice is particularly more worthy than any other.
That would be a fantastic second Pass, actually. Come on Sakurai!

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I think it's important to keep in mind that third party characters come with licensing agreements. A third party character makes Nintendo x amount of money, minus y in licensing fees. If a first party character can beat that net, it doesn't matter if the third party character is a bigger name.

On another note, this talk of "worthiness" is missing the point of character inclusion imo. I expect character popularity to drive sales, not character importance.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Link obviously deserves to be playable but three of him?

Links that represent the current and former best-selling Zeldas, and a frequently recurring artstyle in the series? Of course.

Also, it seems like both sides of the argument on whether or not Nintendo has any good characters left seems to be ignorant of Pokemon, ignoring how Eevee's exclusion is way more outdated than Jigglypuff's inclusion as well as popular trainers in the franchise. And various non-playable Pokemon that are much bigger fan favorites than Incineroar.

 

[N3ON]

Ngl, three Links doesn't seem like something people would defend if it wasn't already on the roster.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Ngl, three Links doesn't seem like something people would defend if it wasn't already on the roster.

Does Masked Link count as a Link?

 

[N3ON]

Does Masked Link count as a Link?

I guess if one of the three had a different moveset it'd be another story.

But I think most people would still opt for a character that wasn't some form of one of the three existing characters.

 

[Curious Villager]

The only reason why we really have three Link's is because of the whole "everyone is here" theme of this game. Otherwise we would have probably just stuck with a primary Link and a child Link again as usual.

 

[Opossum]

Waluigi, Dixie, Ashley, or Eldergad sounds redundant because music and stage are not something new.

You can make this case with Waluigi, Dixie, and Ashley, maybe, but this couldn't be further from the truth in regards to Edelgard. Three Houses absolutely provides a unique stage and a new selection of music by nature of how Fire Emblem works as a series.

 

[ROBnWatch]

The Ice Climbers for example is hardly an example of a must have Nintendo character and their gimmick, which is used to justify them by everyone, doesn't even come from their own game. You only ever play as a singular climber. You could replace them with any game with a two player mode and it'd make as much sense.
I read on these forums a month ago that Ice Climbers Melee reveal was met with one person in the audience Sakurai was showcasing them to recognising them, and whilst I have no idea if that's true or not, it's pretty believable.

I believe this is probably the reaction you’re looking for.

 

[tenworldsguy]

The only ones I’ll agree with you on are Porky and Sylux, in which the only reason people are asking for them is because they don’t have spirits (which should really be a sign that their not important enough in the first place, not that they would have a chance to be playable).

A literal fly that shows up in the beginnning of EB and dies promptly has a spirit (a primary one, to be exact), but Porky, an elder-god teir villian later in his series and BOSS from Brawl, is not there. I'd hardly argue he's not important. If the devs added like every major and minor (the SAVE SPOT got a spirit for pete's sake) character from Mother surely they wouldn't cleanly ignore a major villian from an OG12 series. I'm not expecting a fighter but to say he's unimportant and not there because the devs didn't care doesn't really make any sense at all.

Sylux though is mostly argued because he was rumored to have a big MP4 role. Unless it releases within a year or so it's just wishful thinking to assume he's likely

If the next Smash was going to take a new direction previously unseen in the past Smash entries, I think, for the Nintendo characters, it could work as half Smash 4 (recent characters from recent games + a focus on casual titles) and half "General Nintendo History".

Yeah, we have several first party series who have basically no representation in smash outside of the generic spirits or maybe an assist or mii costume. Ideally, the first parties for the next game could hypothetically just focus on these, with sprinklings of like Dixie to show further Nintendo history.
What are some series that could fit this? There's Startropics, AW, GS, etc, etc
(Assume no fighters for the series in this question)

 

[ze9]

You can make this case with Waluigi, Dixie, and Ashley, maybe, but this couldn't be further from the truth in regards to Edelgard. Three Houses absolutely provides a unique stage and a new selection of music by nature of how Fire Emblem works as a series.

Tropical Freeze stage + boatload of TF music (with some DKC3 music too), and Dixie averts that too. Maybe for the spirits it would be a bit harder, but just a bit.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Well, I’ll strongly disagree with you on pretty much every single one of those 1st Parties you listed being described as “scraping the bottom of the barrel”. The only ones I’ll agree with you on are Porky and Sylux, in which the only reason people are asking for them is because they don’t have spirits (which should really be a sign that their not important enough in the first place, not that they would have a chance to be playable).

I don’t understand how Porky is unimportant. He’s the main antagonist in Mother 3 and may as well be alongside Giygas in EarthBound since he shows up at multiple points in the game (since the very beginning) and he’s helping Giygas before turning off the Devil’s Machine and chickening out.

I certainly wouldn’t say he’s less important than Dungeon Man or multiple other spirit characters.

He has genuine fans who have wanted him since before the Spirit debate, and as I said before the spirits stuff could’ve caused some silent fans to speak up and more people to see and like the idea since Porky rumors got widespread.

Admittedly, the Absolutely Safe Capsule could serve as a Porky reference since the online icon is zoomed in on the window, though it still sucks that Porky himself is still no where to be found, and it seems like it’s just a joke and he’s not actually in the capsule, but I don’t believe spirits really disconfirm so whatever I guess. Still not expecting anything.

Not gonna comment on Sylux because all I know about him is he’s a bounty hunter.

 

[ROBnWatch]

To add onto first party ideas, for Porky...

Stage Ideas:
Tazmily Village (since Lucas doesn’t have an Onett type stage from Mother 3, basically Porky and Lucas swap stages cause Porky’s would become New Pork City)
Empire Porky Building
Giygas’ Lair (with Giygas as a stage hazard, obviously)

Music:
Porky Means Business
Twoson (because I said so)
Good Friends, Bad Friends
DCMC Theme
Duster’s Theme
Monkey Delivery Service
Literally any battle theme from any game in the series, since there is currently only one. (Let’s say 3-5 battle themes)
16 Melodies

Spirits (listing 13 since both previous DLC fighters have come with that many):
Porky (Fighter Spirit, obviously)
Porky Statue
Mecha Drago
Pigmask Army
Giygas
Fassad
DCMC
Magypsies (or, since they might cause controversy, just have the main one, Ionia.)
Porky-Bot (Horde battle)
Mani Mani Statue
Dr. Andonuts
Wess
Rope Snake

Some of those Spirits might be a stretch since they’re not directly related to Porky, but they could also just use a bunch of enemies/bosses from the series (or Mother 3 in particular) instead.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ngl, three Links doesn't seem like something people would defend if it wasn't already on the roster.

This is true. I was considered the annoying one in the last DLC speculation thread for wanting Young Link (and Pichu). Well...That and I was pretty annoying about it. Most people viewed him as obsolete. Toon Link had replaced him and there was absolutely no reason for him to be on the roster.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Tropical Freeze stage + boatload of TF music (with some DKC3 music too), and Dixie averts that too. Maybe for the spirits it would be a bit harder, but just a bit.

And for Ashley, a stage based on her mansion+music from WarioWare DIY and Gold.

 

[Deleted member]

In the arguments of third party vs first party I can only say that I don't really mind Nintendo going full 3rd party on it.

While a few of first party IPs would be cool, I like that in general the 3rd parties bring genres and styles not really being associated with Nintendo, Nintendo 1st party-wise pretty much lacks games like Persona, Bayonetta, MGS and so on or characters like Ryu, Cloud and the Belmonts. Plus Nintendo history from the NES/Famicom era is full of 3rd party support.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

A literal fly that shows up in the beginnning of EB and dies promptly has a spirit (a primary one, to be exact), but Porky, an elder-god teir villian later in his series and BOSS from Brawl, is not there. I'd hardly argue he's not important. If the devs added like every major and minor (the SAVE SPOT got a spirit for pete's sake) character from Mother surely they wouldn't cleanly ignore a major villian from an OG12 series. I'm not expecting a fighter but to say he's unimportant and not there because the devs didn't care doesn't really make any sense at all.

Sylux though is mostly argued because he was rumored to have a big MP4 role. Unless it releases within a year or so it's just wishful thinking to assume he's likely

Yeah, we have several first party series who have basically no representation in smash outside of the generic spirits or maybe an assist or mii costume. Ideally, the first parties for the next game could hypothetically just focus on these, with sprinklings of like Dixie to show further Nintendo history.
What are some series that could fit this? There's Startropics, AW, GS, etc, etc
(Assume no fighters for the series in this question)

I don’t understand how Porky is unimportant. He’s the main antagonist in Mother 3 and may as well be alongside Giygas in EarthBound since he shows up at multiple points in the game (since the very beginning) and he’s helping Giygas before turning off the Devil’s Machine and chickening out.

I certainly wouldn’t say he’s less important than Dungeon Man or multiple other spirit characters.

He has genuine fans who have wanted him since before the Spirit debate, and as I said before the spirits stuff could’ve caused some silent fans to speak up and more people to see and like the idea since Porky rumors got widespread.

Admittedly, the Absolutely Safe Capsule could serve as a Porky reference since the online icon is zoomed in on the window, though it still sucks that Porky himself is still no where to be found, and it seems like it’s just a joke and he’s not actually in the capsule, but I don’t believe spirits really disconfirm so whatever I guess. Still not expecting anything.

Not gonna comment on Sylux because all I know about him is he’s a bounty hunter.

Obviously, Porky is important to his own series (he is more important than Dungeon Man, but that's why I see his spirit as being represented by the Absolutely Safe Capsule), but the problem comes from the size of Earthbound itself. Mother is blessed enough to have 2 characters, if Ness and Lucas weren't classic veterans within Smash the odds that even one of them, let alone both of them would be here would be incredibly small (as we can see by what happened to series like Advance Wars, Golden Sun, and Rhythm Heaven). It is literally a series only being kept in the public memory by Smash. People say "but Fire Emblem was saved by Smash and that is one of Nintendo's most popular series now with 7 characters". That's because Fire Emblem actually used the fame Smash gave it in order to release plenty of mega hits like Awakening, Heroes, and Three Houses. Earthbound has done **** all with the exposure that Smash gave it aside from a couple Virtual Console releases, the last actual new game was more than a decade ago, and we still don't have Mother 3 outside of Japan. It's more in the F-Zero category, except for F-Zero at least has more than two games released in the West and multiple games that sold more than a million copies.

I love the Mother trilogy, I'd really hate for anyone to assume that I hate it based on this, but until we get that Mother trilogy collection port/remake on a modern Nintendo console and it sells gangbusters, I really wouldn't put Porky outside of scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Troykv]

I would be perfectly fine with Edelgard in Smash.

Also it's probably the only first party character from a existent series where it would be easy to justify giving them a stage.

 

[YezenIRl]

Clearly "bottom of the barrel" was a poor choice of words, as it seems to have obscured the meaning of what I'm trying to say. I didn't mean to insult any characters or series in particular, but rather to make a statement about what we have vs. what is left.

Do the franchises that already have a character not deserve more because we've crossed some arbitrary barrier where now all of a sudden Nintendo characters don't matter anymore?

I feel like there is definitely something to adding new series instead of piling on Fire Emblem characters, but...

I think statements like these sort of obscure the point. "Deserve" is such an arbitrary concept, with such arbitrary criteria. 100 more characters could be argued to "deserve" a spot in Smash based on one criteria or another. So my statement isn't meant to say that anyone does or doesn't deserve a spot. If we are going by my personal wants, I haven't actively wanted a character in Smash since Toon Link. The last two smash games have been (for me) just a game of waiting to be surprised by new and interesting characters I didn't know that I wanted.

But ultimately, the roster is limited. The developers cannot add characters endlessly while keeping the quality and balance of the game. The fun of waiting for and speculating about new characters is one half of the enjoyment, but the other half is actually playing, and in order for that to be fun, the developers need to cap their workload somewhere.

So when looking at a limited roster, and a limited number of newcomers, Nintendo's choice to (so far) go Third Party for the fighter pass makes sense to me. It's not a statement that Rhythm Heaven doesn't deserve inclusion, or that Dixie Kong isn't good enough, but rather that it feels time to start going for big names outside of Nintendo rather than Nintendo (further) mining it's own history for the next characters that haven't been added. Characters that aren't considered to be in the top 50 in terms of priority.

That's not to say that new IPs shouldn't get any support in order to create big names. Just that new IPs getting support should feel more like a trade off, where Smash is support, not life support. Inkling makes sense. Inkling is a new IP with a future. So let's use Smash to build on that.

Maybe wording my point that way won't be any less unpopular, because a lot of people in these communities have spent a lot of thought on this and made big emotional investments in these "next characters in line." But too often character speculation is treated like taking turns. After character a gets in, then chaacter b is next. After p, then q. I think there is value in letting ourselves be surprised. In accepting that a character doesn't need to get in just because a vocal minority of Smash fans have been pining for that character long enough.

I like the idea of getting characters we didn't know to ask for, instead of characters that are simply next.

Toad's not in Smash

Toad is in Smash.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I suspect character choices are made mainly according to what will sell more Smash units and DLC. Of course that's the case for third party characters, as Nintendo wouldn't expect to make money off of their games, except for increased console sales, and not even that for characters whose games aren't on a Nintendo console or planned to be. In the case of first party characters, it seems to me to be better business sense to prioritize selling Smash units and DLC over advertising for other games, be they on the market already or merely future possibilities. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Therefore the future prospects of a potential character's franchise are far less important than how many people will buy that character.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I won't say that first party characters are the bottom of the barrel (at least, not the main factor for the low hype) the thing is that most of them are already there as spirits or ATs and fighter pass comes with character, stage, music and spirits, and not only the fighter, the franchise is already represented. Waluigi, Dixie, Ashley, or Eldergad sounds redundant because music and stage are not something new, Springman or Isaac are ATs, Rex was left outside in Sakurai words.. And yes, none of them are bigger than things like Doom, Banjo or Dragon Quest. The pass is full of big shots right now. Also, there's no rumors or serious leaks for first time.
It means nothing about who will be next but for me explains the current state of the speculation.

1st Parties don't even need to have spirits and stages and music and whatnot, they can be like Corrin was in Smash 4 or Piranha Plant in Ultimate and just come as their own outside of the Pass, or as part of a second smaller Fighter's Pass/Echos Pass. Some of them can come with Stages and Music but not Spirits, like how Corrin got music in Smash 4 while Mewtwo/Lucas/Roy didn't.

I normally don't care for boatloads of DLC but this is Smash Ultimate, the last game to bring back every fighter and contain the vast majority of stages from previous games, I feel like its a special exception since it's going to be the definitive edition of Smash for a very long time, with the Switch still in its younger years compared to the Wii U when Smash 4 was released.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Maybe wording my point that way won't be any less unpopular, because a lot of people in these communities have spent a lot of thought on this and made big emotional investments in these "next characters in line." But too often character speculation is treated like taking turns. After character a gets in, then chaacter b is next. After p, then q. I think there is value in letting ourselves be surprised. In accepting that a character doesn't need to get in just because a vocal minority of Smash fans have been pining for that character long enough.

I think this mentality stems from a characters importance within a franchise (or in general so long as there is a connection between them). For example, the A list Mario characters should go first (), then the notable non main characters have a shot () then they can just go crazy and do whatever they want (). It doesn't always happen like this, but it's what makes the most sense to most people. It's why I don't think we'll see Amaterasu until we get a roster that contains Mega Man, Ryu, Ken, some Devil May Cry characters, a Monster Hunter character, Phoenix Wright, some Resident Evil characters, and possibly Arthur and/or Morrigan and/or Viewtiful Joe.

Toad is in Smash.

Toad exists within the game yes, but not on the roster. I think most people would prefer him to be on the roster, or at least wouldn't find it weird if he was.

Therefore the future prospects of a potential character's franchise are far less important than how many people will buy that character.

It just so happens that both are usually true at the same time.

1st Parties don't even need to have spirits and stages and music and whatnot, they can be like Corrin was in Smash 4 or Piranha Plant in Ultimate and just come as their own outside of the Pass, or as part of a second smaller Fighter's Pass/Echos Pass. Some of them can come with Stages and Music but not Spirits, like how Corrin got music in Smash 4 while Mewtwo/Lucas/Roy didn't.

Wasn't there not a pass in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U? I'm pretty sure all of the DLC fighters there were standalone.

 

[RileyXY1]

Wasn't there not a pass in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U? I'm pretty sure all of the DLC fighters there were standalone.

Although, the 3 DLC 3rd Party Fighters in Smash 4 (Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta) were released with a stage and music tracks.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think this mentality stems from a characters importance within a franchise (or in general so long as there is a connection between them). For example, the A list Mario characters should go first (), then the notable non main characters have a shot () then they can just go crazy and do whatever they want (). It doesn't always happen like this, but it's what makes the most sense to most people. It's why I don't think we'll see Amaterasu until we get a roster that contains Mega Man, Ryu, Ken, some Devil May Cry characters, a Monster Hunter character, Phoenix Wright, some Resident Evil characters, and possibly Arthur and/or Morrigan and/or Viewtiful Joe.


Toad exists within the game yes, but not on the roster. I think most people would prefer him to be on the roster, or at least wouldn't find it weird if he was.


It just so happens that both are usually true at the same time.


Wasn't there not a pass in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U? I'm pretty sure all of the DLC fighters there were standalone.

Corrin, the only first party DLC newcomer, didn’t come with a stage but did have some music tracks. Mewtwo, Lucas and Roy iirc didn’t, but they were veterans anyway

If we do get Echoes or Nintendo characters outside the pass I do at least hope they come with music. I.e. if Kasumi Yoshizawa is Joker’s Echo she can come with some new P5R tracks and maybe some P3P music; Bandana Dee has a lot of Kirby tracks to choose from, and Octoling packaged with Fly Octo Fly or bust