Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[whitesnake]

Keep in mind, as weird as it sounds, Earthbound was also a major Nintendo franchise during the release of the first Smash Bros game. 2 successful games with a hotly anticipated 3rd on the way was an impressive track record for a Nintendo franchise back then. Starfox and F-Zero only had two games, Metroid only had 3, and even Zelda only had 5 games.

The only thing the series was lacking was international success but I was imagining Nintendo was hoping the 64DD version of Mother 3 would turn that around.

This is a false comparison. Number of titles is correlated with popularity but not the best indicator. earthbound and fzero even at their respective peaks were far less popular than mario/zelda/pokemon/starfox/metroid/dk

 

[tenworldsguy]

Just to talk about the reason old character like Pit and Ice climbers was added in Smash back in the days, but today people don't see old characters like this happening in the fighter pass is simply because Sakurai didn't directly choose the character for the fighter pass. Characters like Ice climbers, Pit, R.O.B. and arguably, Ness for example are what I always call "Sakurai choices". They're basically characters that where choose because Sakurai love their franchises and have a lot of nostalgia through these games. I think that these type of characters might come back on the spotlight if we do have a Smash 6 and if Sakurai came back, but that's really unsure.

First parties in the pass in general feels very unlikely. Smash Ultimate is far from a port as some would have insisted, but it borrows heavily from it (the physics are generally similar, graphically similar (Ult has better lighting and texture but that's mostly it)) and the smaller base roster only adds to this. If the game'd been given a few more years (2020 release?) then we prolly would have gotten a much larger base roster, including a "retro" character(s) and whatnot. I'm glad Ultimate is out, but I can really only imagine how different things would have been if it'd been given 2 more years to develop and grow in roster size. As a retro fighter, I'd love Ayumi or Takamaru- both were cut from Melee because their source games weren't known in America and were thereby even moreso "who" than the Icies.
Outside of personal opinion (Sakurai does base his choices off of popularity to a degree but that don't mean Walu would have gotten in) and the obvious Rex, ARMs, etc, who do y'all think would have gotten in as base roster if the roster was decided in later 2017/2018 and game released in 2020?

Or maybe that trailer was just not canon in the Mario lore (if the Mario universe even have a lore). I mean honestly I agree that Doomguy have a lot going on for him, but saying that this is the biggest reason is really a stretch. It's not like Nintendo will just stop using Luigi, one of their most popular character from their biggest franchises, just because of a trailer.

Mario canon is basically nonexistant. The universe's reset at least once in its lore, so who knows what was made invalid by that reset. And then you've got spinoffs of varying degrees, ranging from games where you can only barely recall this is Mario canon (Warioware, Donkey Kong) to games where you go-kart the capital G God(ess) of their world and the dictator of a foreign nation.
It's probably much too large a series to properly have canon anyways. Look at Pokemon and Zelda- there's multiple timelines and general mass confusion, when people try to organise it (Hyrule Historia did help Zelda some but BOTW is apparently in every timeline, and there's no answer for that). And then you got stuff like Kid Icarus, where a mainline game (OMaM) isn't canon but it's implied Smash is canon to it???
Nintendo generally only has more solid canon for the more serious (Metroid, SF) or more small (ARMs, Splatoon, etc) games, from what I can tell

 

[DarthEnderX]

According to you.

According to anyone that's not an irrational Nintendo fanboy.

If each Smash game adds, like, 8-10 Nintendo characters, and Nintendo does not create 10 good characters in the time between each Smash game, then the number of Nintendo characters worth adding to Smash decreases with each game.

You're right. Nintendo can also create new IPs that eventually get representation in Smash, like with Splatoon. ARMS and Astral Chain might get a similar fate, depending on the latter's sales numbers of course.

Right, and between the time 4 and Ultimate came out, there were, maybe, 3 new IPs.

So unless every Smash game from here on out is only going to have 3 new Nintendo characters, that's not a sustainable pattern.

 

[RileyXY1]

According to anyone that's not an irrational Nintendo fanboy.

If each Smash game adds, like, 8-10 Nintendo characters, and Nintendo does not create 10 good characters in the time between each Smash game, then the number of Nintendo characters worth adding to Smash decreases with each game.

Right, and between the time 4 and Ultimate came out, there were, maybe, 3 new IPs.

So unless every Smash game from here on out is only going to have 3 new Nintendo characters, that's not a sustainable pattern.

Considering the very likely large gap between Ultimate and Smash 6, Nintendo might create several new characters in that gap, possibly enough to have up to 8-10 new Nintendo characters, some from new franchises and some from old, but we can't predict on this because we have not seen most of these characters yet.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Right, and between the time 4 and Ultimate came out, there were, maybe, 3 new IPs.

So unless every Smash game from here on out is only going to have 3 new Nintendo characters, that's not a sustainable pattern.

Still plenty of existing IPs that can add more reps like DK, Zelda, Xenoblade, and Kirby. Not to mention each new IP doesn't necessarily only have to have 1 character, for example, ARMS would likely come with both Spring Man and Ribbon Girl rather than one or the other.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Well obviously. But are they big enough? Are they iconic enough? Why do you think those series haven't been added yet? Do you think it's just malice or is there a good reason?

I do think there's a reason but I don't think it's a good one.

According to anyone that's not an irrational Nintendo fanboy.

Alright cool have a great day.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Considering the very likely large gap between Ultimate and Smash 6, Nintendo might create several new characters in that gap

Sure, they MIGHT. But they won't. Because they never have.

Smash always mixed it's new Nintendo characters between older classics and newer properties. Well, it's older classics are basically down to D-listers at this point.

CAN Nintendo lean on crappier and crappier pulls from their older properties? Sure. Or they could continue their trend of making a larger portion of their newcomers better, more popular 3rd Party characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Still plenty of existing IPs that can add more reps like DK, Zelda, Xenoblade, and Kirby. Not to mention each new IP doesn't necessarily only have to have 1 character, for example, ARMS would likely come with both Spring Man and Ribbon Girl rather than one or the other.

I was going to say that if they focused on the intricacies of ARMS's combat rather than just going "Let's give them all the ARMS" then it probably wouldn't be too much work to add most of the cast since only their attack properties would change. Then I realized that this would birth a character that could paralyze opponents, and fire long lasting lasers from an extendo-arm using just her normals...I don't think I want to live in a world where that exists.

(Also other ARMS such as the Guardian would be absolute trash due to the higher freedom in mobility.)

Considering the very likely large gap between Ultimate and Smash 6, Nintendo might create several new characters in that gap...

Sure, they MIGHT. But they won't. Because they never have.

I feel like there's some sort of miscommunication here. Are we talking about the birth of new characters in general or the creation of new Smash characters in a more long term fashion between games?

EDIT: For the latter, I was thinking along the lines of extended DLC stuff like a season 2 pass or something.

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm of course talking about new Nintendo characters that might be introduced between now and Smash 6, because Smash 6 is most likely not coming out until after the Switch's successor is released.

 

[AmphabulouSnake]

If they were to put an ARMS character in Smash Ultimate as DLC in a second FP for example it'd have to be Min Min though.
Prior to release I wanted Spring Man in because "poster boy" and my favorite character, but obviously now he's an assist trophy (which sucks), but now I believe Min Min to be a more unique pick, and technically there is no "main" protagonist in ARMS (besides, Min Min is the most popular ARMS character to this day with Twintelle...)

 

[YezenIRl]

I do think there's a reason but I don't think it's a good one.

Okay, so what is the bad reason you think? And who are the characters who should have been added if Sakurai/Nintendo weren't picking characters based on bad reasons? And who are the newcomers who they should have replaced?

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Sure, they MIGHT. But they won't. Because they never have.

Smash always mixed it's new Nintendo characters between older classics and newer properties. Well, it's older classics are basically down to D-listers at this point.

CAN Nintendo lean on crappier and crappier pulls from their older properties? Sure. Or they could continue their trend of making a larger portion of their newcomers better, more popular 3rd Party characters.

This is HIGHLY subjective, and IMO missing the point. Not every side character is necessarily a bad choice, and not everyone who's high on the list will stay that way forever. Not even counting the Pokemon or Fire Emblem excess, look at Rosalina. Not at all saying she's a bad character, but with such minor appearances in Mario these days, has she become a "D-lister" inclusion?

And who's to say that some of these third-parties are not long-shots? Does being from an outside company automatically exempt that character from feeling unnecessary? I highly disagree with that notion.

 

[ze9]

I feel like the "well, this character hasn't gotten in until now so they never will" mindset is a pretty wrong one to have, especially after the game that gave us Ridley, K. Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo if you want to count him.
Sometimes it's just a matter of bad circumstanses.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel like there's some sort of miscommunication here. Are we talking about the birth of new characters in general or the creation of new Smash characters in a more long term fashion between games?

I was talking about the former.

Some were lamenting that more and more of Smash's newcomers are coming from 3rd Party franchises now. And I maintain that, as Nintendo continues to exhaust it's backlog of classic characters, that's only going to become more and more the case.

And Nintendo's rate of creating great new characters does not keep up with the roster demands of new Smash Bros. games.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Even if they don't create new characters between Smash ultimate and Smash 6 (which I think is unlikely but technically a possibilty), they could always pick character that already exist. If you look at the 14 first party newcomers of Smash 4 newcomers for example, 8 of them where "born" before brawl release (Little mac, Rosalina, Bowser jr., Wii fit trainer, Villager, Duck hunt and Palutena). Being a newly born character was never a criteria.

I personally think that if we do have Smash 6, it might add the last remaining "big" Nintendo franchises (rhythm heaven rep, chibi-robo, golden sun, advance wars etc.) Add some secondary characters from Nintendo most popular franchises (a new Pokémon, a new Mario character and a new Zelda character) and add 1 or 2 new third party franchises and I think that it would make a very good newcomer lineup. A lineup that will please everyone? No, but honestly, nothing will please everyone and I think that representing the remaining first party franchises would be the best thing to do will still keeping the "Nintendo" feel of the game.

 

[RileyXY1]

I was talking about the former.

Some were lamenting that more and more of Smash's newcomers are coming from 3rd Party franchises now. And I maintain that, as Nintendo continues to exhaust it's backlog of classic characters, that's only going to become more and more the case.

And Nintendo's rate of creating great new characters does not keep up with the roster demands of new Smash Bros. games.

Considering the long gap between now and Smash 6, Nintendo probably would have created many new characters in that interim.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Considering the long gap between now and Smash 6, Nintendo probably would have created many new characters in that interim.

So you've said. Which A. Assumes you have any idea when Smash 6 is coming out and B. even if you did, my reply is still: They never have.

Smash games come out about once every 5ish years. Nintendo doesn't create 10+ great characters in a 5 year period.

 

[StormC]

Smash 6 will at least have new Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade characters to work with.

Popular characters from long running series like Dixie Kong and Bandana Dee. (And uh, Waluigi.)

Probably at least one new IP that we haven't seen yet (and new ones that haven't been added yet like ARMS).

I'd be surprised to see Smash 6 any earlier than 2025 (assuming the next Switch releases around 2024), which means we still have a good four yearsish until the next project plan would begin. I'm sure there will be plenty to work with for a base game... but I assume DLC will continue to focus on guest characters.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

My personal pick for an Arms character has gotta be Byte and Barq. I mean, how could you say to Robocop with a Robopup?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah. Smash 6 has plenty to work with in regards to Nintendo characters, though I do think 3rd parties will become a bit more prevalent with each entry.

My personal pick for an Arms character has gotta be Byte and Barq. I mean, how could you say to Robocop with a Robopup?

Byte and Barq are my favorite character designs from ARMS. Not sure how well Barq would work in a 2D space considering how easily it is to take it out.

EDIT: If they did get it working though I'd imagine people would hate it's "random" long ranged attacks (even though it's on a timer).

 

[YezenIRl]

I personally think that if we do have Smash 6, it might add the last remaining "big" Nintendo franchises (rhythm heaven rep, chibi-robo, golden sun, advance wars etc.)

Probably not. Smash 6 is probably going to reduce the roster substantially. If it adds newcomers, they will probably be few and very important. Not characters from relatively small inactive series.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Okay, so what is the bad reason you think? And who are the characters who should have been added if Sakurai/Nintendo weren't picking characters based on bad reasons? And who are the newcomers who they should have replaced?

Personally I think having all DLC characters be third party stems from an unfounded lack of confidence from Nintendo in their own characters' ability to sell the DLC.

For the record I think every single third party character that we've gotten is great and has earned that spot (bar maybe Bayonetta, but I love her games so I don't have anything against her). Also for the record, I think the three worst additions to Smash ever are all first party characters.

I can't say with certainty which characters we should or could have gotten, only that there are many great ones that could have been. My issue isn't with any specific character being included or excluded, only with the likelihood that some great choices weren't even considered for that arbitrary reason.

Probably not. Smash 6 is probably going to reduce the roster substantially. If it adds newcomers, they will probably be few and very important. Not characters from relatively small inactive series.

Rhythm Heaven isn't inactive.

 

[Nquoid]

Whilst I can easily think of a new a roster of Nintendo characters I would love to see in Smash 6, even allowing for new Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters, I don't think Nintendo could make 2 full rosters of about 10-12 new characters solely from what we have at the moment.

After Smash 4 was so heavily invested in new franchises and Ultimate catered to fan whims, but obviously had enough going on elsewhere to make it definitive AND had the 3rd party newcomers from huge franchises. I can't imagine Nintendo would be excited to see a line-up featuring Dixie Kong, Chorus Kids, Andy, Isaac, Midna etc without anything new to sweeten the pot.

That's not to say I wouldn't personally love that. But I'm on a Smash forum theorising who the next newcomer would be, I am a very small minority of the 13+ million smash audience. I would still pay unreasonable amounts of money for Nintendo to go really deep and obscure with their future 1st party picks.

 

[Zem-raj]

I'm of course talking about new Nintendo characters that might be introduced between now and Smash 6, because Smash 6 is most likely not coming out until after the Switch's successor is released.

Smash 6 = Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Super Smash Bros. for WiiU are Smash 4 and Smash 5 respectively, that's what Sakurai has referred to them internally as. Smash 7 is Ultimate's successor.

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/02/11/smash-switch-will-be-smash-6/

 

[Deleted member]

I really doubt that we will be getting newcomers from older series that are inactive. From these, Excitebike is the only first party series that I could see getting something just on pure legacy alone (Wars could be as well but on a lesser degree due to not achieving global status until later). But unless some series like Golden Sun, Starfy, Murasame, etc get new games, I find it difficult to believe that Nintendo would add them.

For the next game, a few franchises already on the game would have created new characters by then (Mario, Pokemon, FE, Xenoblade) and there are newer franchises like Astral Chain and ARMS that I would see very likely that they would have a fighter as long as the series do well.

 

[YezenIRl]

Personally I think having all DLC characters be third party stems from an unfounded lack of confidence from Nintendo in their own characters' ability to sell the DLC.

Well, we're three in so far. Can you think of three first part characters that would have sold the DLC better than Joker, Hero, and Banjo? Because I can't.

Also for the record, I think the three worst additions to Smash ever are all first party characters.

Same. I'm not saying that I agree with every first or third part addition Smash has ever made.I just think that character inclusion choices are harder than people seem to think.

Rhythm Heaven isn't inactive.

Sure, but I doubt a Rhythm Heaven character would really bring the hype. And for the record, I (personally) would trade K. Rool, or Ridley, or Isabelle, or Incineroar for a Rhythm Heaven character. It's not a question of personally disliking the idea.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Personally i think Doomguy is next. Just unsure who the 5th would be.

Im not sure how you reasonably follow up joker, hero, banjo and doomguy

 

[YezenIRl]

Im not sure how you reasonably follow up joker, hero, banjo and doomguy

Honestly this is a good point. I could see Doomguy as 5th, but if he's 4th then idk who follows that. Probably not a Resident Evil character just because there is too much overlap with Doomguy (same applies vice versa). Maybe Crash? but idk he might have too much overlap with Banjo.

I could imagine Geno tbh. Even though it totally breaks the DLC pattern, just to pander to fan demand. It's not my preference, but I could see it.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I don't think that the last fighter will necessary be the most hype of the fighter pass. They start Ultimate with Ridley, K. rool and Belmont, which create lots of hype, but end with Isabelle and Incineroar (not bad character but they really generates less hype). I don't think that character 5 needs to be at the same level of hype as the first four, especially considering that they probably knows that for most people, if they have interested in one or two character of the first 3, they will probably buy the whole fighter pass.

Just to clarify I'm not saying that fighter 5 will probably be disappointing, just that it's not because we have 3 very good characters that the last 2 needs to be as good or more.

 

[yeet123]

Personally i think Doomguy is next. Just unsure who the 5th would be.

Im not sure how you reasonably follow up joker, hero, banjo and doomguy

Crash is going to be the last character on the pass

 

[RileyXY1]

Crash is going to be the last character on the pass

That's not a guarantee.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Well, we're three in so far. Can you think of three first part characters that would have sold the DLC better than Joker, Hero, and Banjo? Because I can't.

Well, let's see. I honestly think that the ideal thing is a mix of first and third parties, but I think there's many possible combinations that would probably sell over/under the same (most people will buy any character anyways). But let's try.

Banjo's the easiest to replace. He's a hardcore Nintendo and Smash character pick, so another one of those would sell around the same. Let's go with Waluigi, since he's the most mainstream, but I think any 'fan favorite' would do here.

Hero is a classic JRPG character, but the biggest part of his niche is his Japanese popularity. I'd go with Bandana Dee here, as he's incredibly popular in Japan and more popular than DQ in the rest of the world (so, offsetting the potential loss in Japanese popularity).

Joker's the hardest because you could argue that a big part of his pull is that he's almost exclusive to the PS4. But he is the protagonist of a recent very successful, very acclaimed JRPG, so I'm going with that. Hindsight says Byleth or someone from Three Houses, but Fire Emblem overrepresentation might make this one not as exciting a sell. My mind goes to Rex. While Xenoblade 2 didn't sell as much as Persona 5 and wasn't as acclaimed, Rex still managed to become incredibly popular and demanded. If we're simply going by recent hits, Spring Man would also work.

It's not perfect, you could argue that some would sell more or fewer people on the pass, and like I said my ideal would be a mix. But it's not like you can say that the current lineup is objectively the best possible or the only one that makes sense.

 

[yeet123]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Interesting theory in the last PapaGenos vid about the BlastCorp and Jet Force Gemini spirits coming to Smash when Rare Replay drops

 

[AmphabulouSnake]

Honestly since nobody knows who Fighter number #4 is I'm gonna put my own bias and say it's Professor Layton
I meannnnn it's not unlikely at all, and considering the Switch Lite is coming out at a lower price, Nintendo might wanna attract the "casual" side with some popular puzzle game from you know who especially considering the next direct would be right before the Switch Lite launch...
But it could just be anybody at this point lmao, Jill from Resident Evil, Phoenix Wright, Ryu Hayabusa....the only thing I don't want is a different Level 5 character lol
ALSO number #5 is definitely Doom Slayer in my book, can't change my mind until the last character is revealed...

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Well, let's see. I honestly think that the ideal thing is a mix of first and third parties, but I think there's many possible combinations that would probably sell over/under the same (most people will buy any character anyways). But let's try.

Banjo's the easiest to replace. He's a hardcore Nintendo and Smash character pick, so another one of those would sell around the same. Let's go with Waluigi, since he's the most mainstream, but I think any 'fan favorite' would do here.

Hero is a classic JRPG character, but the biggest part of his niche is his Japanese popularity. I'd go with Bandana Dee here, as he's incredibly popular in Japan and more popular than DQ in the rest of the world (so, offsetting the potential loss in Japanese popularity).

Joker's the hardest because you could argue that a big part of his pull is that he's almost exclusive to the PS4. But he is the protagonist of a recent very successful, very acclaimed JRPG, so I'm going with that. Hindsight says Byleth or someone from Three Houses, but Fire Emblem overrepresentation might make this one not as exciting a sell. My mind goes to Rex. While Xenoblade 2 didn't sell as much as Persona 5 and wasn't as acclaimed, Rex still managed to become incredibly popular and demanded. If we're simply going by recent hits, Spring Man would also work.

It's not perfect, you could argue that some would sell more or fewer people on the pass, and like I said my ideal would be a mix. But it's not like you can say that the current lineup is objectively the best possible or the only one that makes sense.

I'm sorry but I highly doubt Banjo hype is even remotely comparable than the hype Waluigi would have. I agree that Bandana dee and Rex might have generated as much hype as Hero and Joker in Nintendo fanbase, but Joker and Hero have more a general appeal that Rex and Dee don't have. For example, I know some people that aren't smash players, but where very excited to see how Joker and Hero would play in Smash.

 

[Garteam]

Word of advice for those saying "the next character has to be X".

Keep your expectations in check. It's always good to have hope and hype for a character, but resigning them as the only option left is getting your expectations dangerously high.

While a few characters do seem to be logically likely (Crash, Leon, Doom Marine), curveballs can still be thrown. Remember, most people assumed that the final two characters for Smash for would be Wolf and someone who performed well in online polls (usually K. Rool), when it actually turned out to be a dark horse candidate and a character who 95% of the Smash community never considered.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm sorry but I highly doubt Banjo hype is even remotely comparable than the hype Waluigi would have. I agree that Bandana dee and Rex might have generated as much hype as Hero and Joker in Nintendo fanbase, but Joker and Hero have more a general appeal that Rex and Dee don't have. For example, I know some people that aren't smash players, but where very excited to see how Joker and Hero would play in Smash.

I wouldn't exactly say that any of these characters have general appeal. They are all very much aimed at certain niches. It's only together that they reach something similar to widespread appeal, with room to improve.

 

[YezenIRl]

It's not perfect, you could argue that some would sell more or fewer people on the pass, and like I said my ideal would be a mix. But it's not like you can say that the current lineup is objectively the best possible or the only one that makes sense.

Definitely not. I'm aware there are big name (third party) characters that would sell even better than the ones we've received. For example, even thogh I prefer Hero, I think that Sora would have sold better.

That said, I definitely think you're wrong about all three of those characters selling better than the ones we have. Even as someone who has never played Persona, I think Joker is one of the single best additions the Smash roster has ever gotten, just on account of how unique he is in the way he plays and his aesthetic and what he brings to the table. He was also the perfect first DLC character, in that he set the tone for the fighter pass as being fighters that people wouldn't see coming.From my own personal experience, I saw him drum up a lot of hype around the fighter pass that I don't think Rex or Springman (a character people feel pretty lukewarm about) would have. I think if Springman or Rex had been the first DLC announced, a lot of people would have skipped the fighter pass entirely, since Rex and Springman are characters that appeal to hardcore Nintendo fans who are already buying the pass.

Then to follow that up with with Bandana Dee, that's another one I don't think would have done super well. People who don't love Bandana Dee are indifferent to him, and would see it as a 4th Kirby character they don't need. Why spend 5 dollars on another Kirby stage and more Kirby music when you already have so much.

And to top it off, though I would personally prefer Waluigi to Banjo, I also understand that Waluigi is a polarizing character and a lot of people wouldn't buy him out of spite. And again, another Mario stage? more Mario music? Notice that besides ARMS every suggestion you make was for a represented series.

Obviously this is just my speculation on how this would play out, and I've proved nothing. So maybe someone else wants to give us a second opinion here.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Word of advice for those saying "the next character has to be X".

Keep your expectations in check. It's always good to have hope and hype for a character, but resigning them as the only option left is getting your expectations dangerously high.

While a few characters do seem to be logically likely (Crash, Leon, Doom Marine), curveballs can still be thrown. Remember, most people assumed that the final two characters for Smash for would be Wolf and someone who performed well in online polls (usually K. Rool), when it actually turned out to be a dark horse candidate and a character who 95% of the Smash community never considered.

Another example is the Grinch Leak, everyone went into that final November Direct expecting Geno and Isaac and Shadow and what we got was Incineroar and a Plant.

 

[Deleted member]

Whoever is in the 4th Fighter Pack probably won't be as hype as Banjo-Kazooie namewise, but what will sell to people are the things that they can do and what they have to offer to Smash, whether if it's a cool looking moveset, how their franchise fits with Smash, or the content it provides. It's perhaps the biggest reason why I think Ryu Hayabusa might be the perfect candidate to be revealed after Banjo-Kazooie since he has a strong list of cool looking moves he can bring to Smash from Ninja Gaiden, 1 of the last remaining NES franchises yet to be in Smash Bros in some capacity, as well as a good amount of music (like cmon Unbreakable Determination needs a Smash remix) and spirits. He may not be a big name around Smash, but he sure could be the character that nobody knew they wanted until now (sorta like how Hero is).

As for the 5th Fighter Pack, well who knows for sure. For some reason, I think it could either be from a franchise a great amount of people know about or an indie game. I'm still hoping it's Nightmare from Soulcalibur, but it could also end up being a Resident Evil character, Crash, Doom Slayer, or even Cadence depending on the timing of Cadence of Hyrule's development and if Sakurai figured out a moveset for her before finalizing the Fighter Pass.