Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So I just saw a "leak" video about changes to the echo fighters coming in the 5.0 update alongside Banjo & Kazooie. I was expecting it to be false, but the idea had me curious so I watched it anyway. The changes listed were pretty dumb though. They were things like Daisy uses Toadette instead of a blue Toad, Chrom is slower now, and Lucina is shorter, and her up special is now Soaring Slash. Also it added Alph, who has Rock Pikmin that spike opponents. Imagine giving an already good character the ability to spike players with most of their normals and a projectile. I don't want to live in a world where that exists even if the character was trash.

There were some interesting things listed, but most of them were surface level and/or just made the character flat out worse. I do however like the idea of making each of the echo fighters more like Ken in that they take the moveset into a slightly different playstyle. Were they to do something like this what changes would you like guys to see?

We need to remember, the DLC roster was finalized sometime before the new year started
so if Sakurai ended up choosing a new Gen 8 Pokemon, he would have done so before we've ever even seen the first trailer for SW/SH

its reception in the following months after that would have had no bearing on the selection process

That is true. Everyone was super hyped about the game when the characters were being selected.

 

[Garteam]

So I just saw a "leak" video about changes to the echo fighters coming in the 5.0 update alongside Banjo & Kazooie. I was expecting it to be false, but the idea had me curious so I watched it anyway. The changes listed were pretty dumb though. They were things like Daisy uses Toadette instead of a blue Toad, Chrom is slower now, and Lucina is shorter, and her up special is now Soaring Slash. Also it added Alph, who has Rock Pikmin that spike opponents. Imagine giving an already good character the ability to spike players with most of their normals and a projectile. I don't want to live in a world where that exists even if the character was trash.

There were some interesting things listed, but most of them were surface level and/or just made the character flat out worse. I do however like the idea of making each of the echo fighters more like Ken in that they take the moveset into a slightly different playstyle. Were they to do something like this what changes would you like guys to see?

Changing characters this drastically via a patch seems like a bad idea. People who use echoes have gotten used to their current movesets, changing major parts of them would only serve to upset those who use these characters. It's one thing to have your main get nerfed, it's another thing for them to have a special completely changed or to have their overall speed altered.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Chrom is slower

He has absolutely no need for this.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Changing characters this drastically via a patch seems like a bad idea. People who use echoes have gotten used to their current movesets, changing major parts of them would only serve to upset those who use these characters. It's one thing to have your main get nerfed, it's another thing for them to have a special completely changed or to have their overall speed altered.

Yeah. The only way this would work is if the changes were applied to moves the character never uses, but I don't think many (if any) of the echoes have attacks like these. Also most of them are pretty good characters so giving them more options willy nilly would be a bad idea.

EDIT: I'd be sad if they didn't do something like this for the next game though.

He has absolutely no need for this.

Agreed. Besides, it'd probably screw up his running animation.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don't think this is true at all. For starters, some characters (like Waluigi for example, who I love), have haters. Second of all, some characters just create interest better than others. Joker or Hero for example, get people who are unfamiliar with their series curious about Persona and Dragon Quest, and thus build hype. Bandana Waddle Dee isn't going to have that affect. Smash players already know Kirby.

Myself as an example, I'd never heard of Joker before he was announced for the Fighter Pass. But he seemed really cooland unique, so I watched a bunch of footage of P5, and got pretty into the character. Joker sold me on the fighter pass pretty quickly in that way because he emphasized just how openand unexpected it was.

Total honesty, if the first fighter on the pass had been Rex or Springman I would have held off. Springman is one of the least inspired Arms characters to me, and Shorter Shulk + Anime Waifu is just a character I have no interest in. If the next one were Bandana Waddle Dee I wouldn't have continued to hold off. If the third were Waluigi, I would have just gotten him and left the others. I know that may sound harsh, but I think you'd be surprised how prevalent that sentiment is.

New series and different genres (whether Third Party or first doesn't actually matter to most, since most people don't have the level of brand loyalty to care who profits off the character) have more of an impact than I think you might realize. Asking people to pay an extra 5 dollars for another FE character, or another Kirby character, kinda feels like a lot when you look at how much content those series already have in Smash. If you are a person who already actively wants those characters, then sure you'd be glad to. But if you are a person without expectations beyond being surprised and impressed, new series maybe carry more appeal.

I think you're just extrapolating your feeling towards everyone else. I've seen plenty of people not be excited for Joker precisely because they hadn't been able to play his game, people not excited about Hero because of their unfamiliarity with DQ, and even some people dismissing Banjo-Kazooie as cereal mascots.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think you're just extrapolating your feeling towards everyone else. I've seen plenty of people not be excited for Joker precisely because they hadn't been able to play his game, people not excited about Hero because of their unfamiliarity with DQ, and even some people dismissing Banjo-Kazooie as cereal mascots.

I personally couldn't be excited for Joker until he came out, Hero did nothing for me in the clout and visual departments (though I was interested in what we now know is Command Selection), and Banjo & Kazooie mostly just made me happy for the people that wanted him (Also I loved the character interactions between King K. Rool and the Kongs).

EDIT: Most of the characters that would excite me are either considered to be out of the running, or are a less important 3rd party like Amaterasu. The only character that we actually talk about with any sort of hope that would excite me would be Master Chief, but only because of his series's prestige; I don't have any personal connections to it.

 

[Opossum]

He has absolutely no need for this.

It also makes basically no sense as a change since Chrom's never really been depicted as slow. Heroes is probably where he's the slowest and he isn't even THAT slow there. Everywhere else tends to depict him as the Lightning Bruiser of the group, like he is in Smash.

 

[SKX31]

I think you're just extrapolating your feeling towards everyone else. I've seen plenty of people not be excited for Joker precisely because they hadn't been able to play his game, people not excited about Hero because of their unfamiliarity with DQ, and even some people dismissing Banjo-Kazooie as cereal mascots.

To join in on this bandwagon:

* Moderately excited with Joker. Had no clue how he was gonna work though until he came out.

* Was "Meh" on Hero. I've actually warmed up to him since, partly because A) I love dumb bull (I've listed the game that made me stop worrying about bull RNG here before - Dota 2. ) and B) Cloud performs decently well vs. him - even with OHKO moves. I don't get the impression Hero's too random or too ridicolous, although Hero has problems of course. Looking at you, Magic Burst.

* Was pretty excited about Banjo - thing is, 10 years without even being involved dampened my enthusiasm. Still, welcomed the duo because I played both Kazooie and Tooie as a kid.

Edit: A lot of my most wanted are either unlikely or obscure. That said, I've been decently optimistic about Ultimate getting more DLC past the Pass, so we'll see in the end.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It also makes basically no sense as a change since Chrom's never really been depicted as slow. Heroes is probably where he's the slowest and he isn't even THAT slow there. Everywhere else tends to depict him as the Lightning Bruiser of the group, like he is in Smash.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Fire Emblem Awakening

He was too slow to save Emmeryn.

 

[Idon]

It also makes basically no sense as a change since Chrom's never really been depicted as slow. Heroes is probably where he's the slowest and he isn't even THAT slow there. Everywhere else tends to depict him as the Lightning Bruiser of the group, like he is in Smash.

I mean in Awakening, Chrom's "slow" but only in relativity to the veritable speedsters that are the child units.

Plus, Robin being as slow as an armor knight doesn't exactly fit in with lore or game mechanics I think.

 

[Opossum]

I mean in Awakening, Chrom's "slow" but only in relativity to the veritable speedsters that are the child units.

Plus, Robin being as slow as an armor knight doesn't exactly fit in with lore or game mechanics I think.

Clearly, when Sakurai took the GBA casting animation for Arcfire, he also took the GBA weapon weight for Nosferatu with it.

 

[Idon]

Clearly, when Sakurai took the GBA casting animation for Arcfire, he also took the GBA weapon weight for Nosferatu with it.

Unfortunately this Robin chose +Res/-Spd as his boon and bane.

 

[Deleted member]

This probably doesn't mean anything, but it seems like all 3 characters currently in the Fighter Pass all stand tall when they're idle. Joker seems to be the only 1 with slightly bent knees but still stands relatively tall, Hero is always standing in his idle pose, and even the small glimpses of Banjo-Kazooie's idle pose appear to be standing as well.

I know it sounds silly to think leg posture has anything to do with a character getting in, but maybe the last 2 characters will have their knees bent a bit more when they're idle?

 

[Idon]

This probably doesn't mean anything, but it seems like all 3 characters currently in the Fighter Pass all stand tall when they're idle. Joker seems to be the only 1 with slightly bent knees but still stands relatively tall, Hero is always standing in his idle pose, and even the small glimpses of Banjo-Kazooie's idle pose appear to be standing as well.

I know it sounds silly to think leg posture has anything to do with a character getting in, but maybe the last 2 characters will have their knees bent a bit more when they're idle?

Hmmm, I dunno.

I mean when's the last time we had a quadpedal character, Duck Hunt? I'm thinkin maybe it's Amaterasu's time to shine.

 

[YezenIRl]

I think you're just extrapolating your feeling towards everyone else.

I mean without concrete data that's what we are all doing on some level. You can find a person who feels any which way about anything. However, I do think that there are certain common sense facts. Like the main character of Dragon Quest being more popular than a 4th Kirby character.

At a certain point it's important to realize that Nintendo is going off way more data than we are, as well as a better understanding of what is feasible. So they're are probably making smarter financial decisions with that data than people on this board are making with their preferences.

 

[tenworldsguy]

So I just saw a "leak" video about changes to the echo fighters coming in the 5.0 update alongside Banjo & Kazooie. I was expecting it to be false, but the idea had me curious so I watched it anyway. The changes listed were pretty dumb though. They were things like Daisy uses Toadette instead of a blue Toad, Chrom is slower now, and Lucina is shorter, and her up special is now Soaring Slash. Also it added Alph, who has Rock Pikmin that spike opponents. Imagine giving an already good character the ability to spike players with most of their normals and a projectile. I don't want to live in a world where that exists even if the character was trash.

Alph as an echo would have been cool I guess but I much rather would have preferred Louie as a unique character (or better yet, a Pikmin 4 rep to show that the game's not dead). Can I see that leak if you still got it?

 

[ze9]

Or maybe it's not like everything is about money and they just thought an all-guests Fighter Pass would be more fun/interesting.

 

[andree123]

I felt like having all characters in the fighters pass to be only 3rd parties just takes too much money away from Nintendo.

 

[Deleted member]

I felt like having all characters in the fighters pass to be only 3rd parties just takes too much money away from Nintendo.

How so? They are developing the characters and getting part of the cut. I would think that a popular 3rd party is going to sell way better than a 1st party that is either inactive or is not the face of its franchise.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Alph as an echo would have been cool I guess but I much rather would have preferred Louie as a unique character (or better yet, a Pikmin 4 rep to show that the game's not dead). Can I see that leak if you still got it?

It was a from a Blocked Content video. Skip to 11:05 if you don't care about the first "leak" that's not even related to Smash (other than the "leaker" trying to cover his butt about not mentioning Banjo & Kazooie).

I felt like having all characters in the fighters pass to be only 3rd parties just takes too much money away from Nintendo.

This is probably not the case considering that Smash Ultimate's DLC is relatively the same price as the previous 3rd party DLC (which was higher than the 1st party stuff), and even if it was I think Nintendo can afford it.

 

[YezenIRl]

Or maybe it's not like everything is about money and they just thought an all-guests Fighter Pass would be more fun/interesting.

That might be part of it? It's hard to say. Based on the way the Fighter Pass is structured, it's not only about the characters but also the series from which they derive. It's not just Joker in Smash, it's Persona in Smash. It's not just The Luminary in Smash, it's Dragon Questin Smash. On some level that seems more widely compelling than characters from already represented series.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I felt like having all characters in the fighters pass to be only 3rd parties just takes too much money away from Nintendo.

It would be pretty interesting to see what the trade off between paying for the rights to use other company characters are vs. the financial gain by bringing in new fanbases into Smash.

Although personally I think the majority of Smash DLC would sell incredibly well regardless of what characters were chosen because a lot of people want the full roster regardless of who the DLC actually is. I don't neccessarily follow this mindset but I know a lot of Smash fans both IRL and on these boards do.

 

[Door Key Pig]

That might be part of it? It's hard to say. Based on the way the Fighter Pass is structured, it's not only about the characters but also the series from which they derive. It's not just Joker in Smash, it's Persona in Smash. It's not just The Luminary in Smash, it's Dragon Questin Smash. On some level that seems more widely compelling than characters from already represented series.

*Persona 5 in Smash.
And guests aren't the only ones to bring new series fighters to Smash.

 

[RileyXY1]

*Persona 5 in Smash.
And guests aren't the only ones to bring new series fighters to Smash.

But, do you think that they would throw in a character from say, Astral Chain, that hasn't even been released yet?

 

[Deleted member]

*Persona 5 in Smash.
And guests aren't the only ones to bring new series fighters to Smash.

Probably with the exception of Startropics, Astral Chain and a few other titles, you technically have pretty much every 1st party title in the game already even if it doesn't include a fighter.

 

[YezenIRl]

Persona 5 in Smash.

There is P4 and P3 content as well.

And guests aren't the only ones to bring new series fighters to Smash.

Not counting spirits true, but realistically the pool of available third party series is much larger and more varied than the pool of available unrepresented Nintendo series.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

There is P4 and P3 content as well.

Which is why I wish Joker isn't classified as being from the Persona 5 "series".

 

[Idon]

Joker: Has Persona 3 and 4 content, label is P5 exclusive logo.
Cloud: Only has FF7 content, label is general FF logo.

Shouldn't this be uh, switched?
Where the **** is the FF7 meteor.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Joker: Has Persona 3 and 4 content, label is P5 expclusive logo.
Cloud: Only has FF7 content, label is general FF logo.

Shouldn't this be uh, switched?
Where the **** is the FF7 meteor.

I think the better question is where the heck is the rest of the content. lol

Can't help but wonder what they would have added if they weren't so restricted.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Joker: Has Persona 3 and 4 content, label is P5 expclusive logo.
Cloud: Only has FF7 content, label is general FF logo.

Shouldn't this be uh, switched?
Where the **** is the FF7 meteor.

just gonna have to mod it in.

 

[YoshiandToad]

So I just saw a "leak" video about changes to the echo fighters coming in the 5.0 update alongside Banjo & Kazooie. I was expecting it to be false, but the idea had me curious so I watched it anyway. The changes listed were pretty dumb though. They were things like Daisy uses Toadette instead of a blue Toad, Chrom is slower now, and Lucina is shorter, and her up special is now Soaring Slash. Also it added Alph, who has Rock Pikmin that spike opponents. Imagine giving an already good character the ability to spike players with most of their normals and a projectile. I don't want to live in a world where that exists even if the character was trash.

There were some interesting things listed, but most of them were surface level and/or just made the character flat out worse. I do however like the idea of making each of the echo fighters more like Ken in that they take the moveset into a slightly different playstyle. Were they to do something like this what changes would you like guys to see?


That is true. Everyone was super hyped about the game when the characters were being selected.

Just going back to this leak for a second; I've seen the leak myself and I have to say this has to be the least believable one yet.

The creator of the leak is trying to claim Sakurai, the same Sakurai who didn't like altering movesets between games too much and refused to stop Dorf being fat Captain Falcon in case he alienated the Dorf mains from previous games, is suddenly going to remove Daisy's floating mechanic in the same game she debuted?

That's a difficult sell to me.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

to remove Daisy's floating mechanic in the same game she debuted?

He's more likely to change it in the game in which she debuted than in later games, according to his supposed reasoning.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There’s basically no reason to believe that leak.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

There’s basically no reason to believe that leak.

I didn't believe it either. I brought it up to discuss the subject matter rather than it's validity.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm more surprised by a Youtube channel covering the leak as just by common sense, a lot of the changes and additions are just kind of random.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm more surprised by a Youtube channel covering the leak as just by common sense, a lot of the changes and additions are just kind of random.

I have a feeling Blocked Content just kind of talks about everything regardless of how feasible it is. Even then the first thing he said after reading the leak was "I think this is bogus" so I feel like he just recognized that the topic sounds interesting.

 

[YezenIRl]

Blocked Content is worse than LaxChris.

 

[KillerCage]

Blocked Content is worse than LaxChris.

What made Blocked Content worse than LaxChris is that the former ACTUALLY had good content.

The fan-made Codecs were fun to watch and hearing Cranky Kong rant against other characters was hilarious.
Once Blocked Content stopped producing these gems and started focusing on those "leak" videos, I effectively stopped watching him.

 

[ze9]

That might be part of it? It's hard to say. Based on the way the Fighter Pass is structured, it's not only about the characters but also the series from which they derive. It's not just Joker in Smash, it's Persona in Smash. It's not just The Luminary in Smash, it's Dragon Questin Smash. On some level that seems more widely compelling than characters from already represented series.

I mean, it's really cool. I think that Sakurai and Nintendo value a lot how Smash has become this little museum of Nintendo itself and of gaming in general. Straight from Sakurai's mouth:
Having characters included in Smash Bros. is something that takes a lot of effort and support from a whole host of people, and it’s something that transcends profit or loss. The job I have is incredibly unique, and I do my best to create things that even please fans of the source material.
They're going the extra mile to please fans, they're not treating the game as an advertisement. If all they wanted to do was just to maximize profits they wouldn't have made a game with 76 characters in the base game with copyrights from around 10 different companies in the first place.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I think Blocked Content just needs a video to ramble about for 10-25 minutes every day in order to make that Youtube cash.

I can't blame him for doing it for the cash, but most of his videos seem to basically boil down to "So this leak is really interesting and could mean we're getting two third party characters or two first party characters or a combination of the two for the final two DLC slots so that is really interesting and exciting. Comment for a piranha plant plush."

On the topic of leaks; whatever happened to that Starling leak the Geno thread was talking about? Did we ever find out what the picture was referencing?