Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Marcello691]

This made me laugh, how in the world can you compare Isabelle to Tingle? They're both popular NPCs? Except Tingle has never been as prominent of a focus in the Zelda games as Isabelle is in the AC games, and Tingle is also not essentially the face of Zelda. Saying that makes it pretty clear you've either never played Animal Crossing or you've somehow entirely missed how prominent she is in the last few games of the series.

The comparison just threw me for a loop so I wanted to address it.


That really doesn't have anything to do with this. Nobody is saying Isabelle is too big, but moreso questioning if Isabelle's unique proportions, admittedly not too drastically different though, truly allow her to be an echo fighter. "Ridley is too big to be a Charizard echo" would be more in line with this discussion, which would obviously be dumb but I'm just trying to get a point across.

I played animal crossing wild world on the Nintendo ds, but at that time there was no boring dog like creature called isabelle. The game was so boring and not my genre, so I've never played another title in that series again. I love the character designs and graphics of the series though.
Okay, maybe it's exaggerated to compare Isabelle to tingle, because he's a joke character and Isabelle is not. But he got spin off games, which Isabelle didn't and he was also like Isabelle now used for promotional purposes back then.
I would rather take more fire emblem characters for smash 5 than animal crossing characters

 

[GoodGrief741]

I played animal crossing wild world on the Nintendo ds, but at that time there was no boring dog like creature called isabelle. Tge game was so boring and not my genre, so I've never played another title in that series again. I love the character designs and graphics of the series though.
Okay, maybe it's exaggerated to compare Isabelle to tingle, because he's a joke character and Isabelle is not. But he got spin off games, which Isabelle didn't and he was also like Isabelle now used for promotional purposes back then.
I would rather take more fire emblem characters for smash 5 than animal crossing characters

Previously you were talking about how the only characters needed were two from Donkey Kong, so these Fire Emblem comments now make it seem as if you’ve some sort of personal hatred of Animal Crossing.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Made a basic Dark Matter moveset.

Spoiler

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I fail to see how. It's a character-driven franchise with many popular characters. Being stuck with just one in Smash would have been awful, and I don't even enjoy playing Animal Crossing.

As someone who does play Animal Crossing... just no. It’s not character driven in the same way that Fire Emblem is, where you can actually use different units that canonically have tons of differences.

Animal Crossing NPCs are visually unique characters who have different personalities that you need to interact with and learn over time. Few of them do anything fundamentally different from one another at the end of the day though.

Villager represents Animal Crossing as a whole, that’s his move set down to a tee. Doing all of the things you do in game on a regular basis. So he covers a lot of the playable characteristics on his own. Where as the other characters existing as assist trophies, background elements on stages, etc. works best I think.

As for the Echo argument, the only official word we have from Sakurai is that they are fighters based on another character (the classic definition of clones) so we really can’t make judgment calls on that. We can make guesses based on Daisy, but he seems to be putting them in so low effort characters don’t get complaints of wasted roster spots. So, even though making Isabelle a Villager Echo work would take work, I’m not convinced that’s enough to make an argument of she has to be unique.

And this is all coming from someone who loves Isabelle, wants her in the game, and would likely enjoy her as a unique fighter if she’s done right...

Though, K.K. Slider and Tom Nook are equally recognizable characters from Animal Crossing I would honestly rather have, especially given their seniority and the fact I’d see them having more unique move sets. K.K. Slider is especially still a super popular pick from everything I’ve seen. Though, I believe both are definitely reconfirmed. So I’ll take Isabelle.

 

[Marcello691]

Previously you were talking about how the only characters needed were two from Donkey Kong, so these Fire Emblem comments now make it seem as if you’ve some sort of personal hatred of Animal Crossing.

Haha, no I don't have some personal hatred of animal crossing. As a matter of fact I do love the animal crossing stages in smash and I like the music, I also think it's really cool how they implemented k.k. slider on the animal crossing stage, if I remember correctly he was singing there Saturdays.
I just think that there are better characters fitting into smash as playable ones. As for fire emblem, I "belonged" to the people who were annoyed by all the fe characters in smash 4, I've never played a fire emblem game...that changed two weeks ago, I bought Fe:Fates Conquest and I love it! There are so many cool characters in that game, thought all characters are swordsmen, but there so many different fighters, Camilla is my favorite. Besides Robin all fe characters are sword users, that's just sad seeing how varied the characters in fe games are.
I guess I'm happy with every character we get, as long as I get my Dixie and K.rool ;-)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As someone who does play Animal Crossing... just no. It’s not character driven in the same way that Fire Emblem is, where you can actually use different units that canonically have tons of differences.

Animal Crossing NPCs are visually unique characters who have different personalities that you need to interact with and learn over time. Few of them do anything fundamentally different from one another at the end of the day though.

Villager represents Animal Crossing as a whole, that’s his move set down to a tee. Doing all of the things you do in game on a regular basis. So he covers a lot of the playable characteristics on his own. Where as the other characters existing as assist trophies, background elements on stages, etc. works best I think.

As for the Echo argument, the only official word we have from Sakurai is that they are fighters based on another character (the classic definition of clones) so we really can’t make judgment calls on that. We can make guesses based on Daisy, but he seems to be putting them in so low effort characters don’t get complaints of wasted roster spots. So, even though making Isabelle a Villager Echo work would take work, I’m not convinced that’s enough to make an argument of she has to be unique.

And this is all coming from someone who loves Isabelle, wants her in the game, and would likely enjoy her as a unique fighter if she’s done right...

Though, K.K. Slider and Tom Nook are equally recognizable characters from Animal Crossing I would honestly rather have, especially given their seniority and the fact I’d see them having more unique move sets. K.K. Slider is especially still a super popular pick from everything I’ve seen. Though, I believe both are definitely reconfirmed. So I’ll take Isabelle.

The thing about seniority is it only does a lot if you're already the protagonist. Like with Marth. Otherwise, it doesn't mean much alone. You are right the series isn't character driven, but that doesn't mean Isabelle lacks standing out. She's the mascot now. Obviously you're right about what Villager is there for. He's meant to represent the actual gameplay of AC and does it just fine. He doesn't need an Echo/Clone to "finish the moveset". Sure, an item or so are missing, but that's not a big deal in itself.

But it doesn't change Isabelle absolutely is the next biggest character after Villager(the actual playable character) anyway.

Also, for Echoes, the only information we actually were told besides the fact they're obviously based upon other characters is that they're 1:1 copies of the other character(which means only slightly tweaked movesets, Final Smash aside, and the same weight as well. Overall what was told to us). One can argue that Bill Trinen was incorrect and that's fine. But it's the closest thing to an official statement we have that determines how to understand them. So we have nothing to go on beyond this and at this time, it's better to use an official thing than to assume it's wrong.

 

[Mrs.Milky]

I'm just gonna drop by and say I want zero in smash oofy

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The thing about seniority is it only does a lot if you're already the protagonist. Like with Marth. Otherwise, it doesn't mean much alone. You are right the series isn't character driven, but that doesn't mean Isabelle lacks standing out. She's the mascot now. Obviously you're right about what Villager is there for. He's meant to represent the actual gameplay of AC and does it just fine. He doesn't need an Echo/Clone to "finish the moveset". Sure, an item or so are missing, but that's not a big deal in itself.

But it doesn't change Isabelle absolutely is the next biggest character after Villager(the actual playable character) anyway.

Also, for Echoes, the only information we actually were told besides the fact they're obviously based upon other characters is that they're 1:1 copies of the other character(which means only slightly tweaked movesets, Final Smash aside, and the same weight as well. Overall what was told to us). One can argue that Bill Trinen was incorrect and that's fine. But it's the closest thing to an official statement we have that determines how to understand them. So we have nothing to go on beyond this and at this time, it's better to use an official thing than to assume it's wrong.

Not trying to argue the point, she has clearly become the Animal Crossing number two (Though I wonder how much of that has to do with just the cuteness factor). I have no problems with her specifically in that regard (Though again, I have a vast preference to Tom Nook and K.K. Slider if we had to pick a second, but that's just me). I do want her in the game, as I do want a second Animal Crossing rep. Just as a fan, I'm a little bummed she has managed to over shadow those two. Again, I can't actually argue with popularity, so I won't.

I agree that Echo fighters should be practically 1:1 with the original fighter. That's why a lot of suggestions with regards to Echo fighters I do find a little too nonsensical. Isabelle isn't one of them. She doesn't exactly fit the Villager, but she's damn close. So close as to I imagine you could easily tweak her model to fit on Villager. Her biggest issue with being a Villager Echo seems to be her lack of the rounded hands, her hair, and the slight differences that emerge from clothing choices (E.G. Villager's body looks longer because of the more baggy shirt, Isabelle doesn't wear shoes). I don't think it would be a stretch to create an Isabelle model that looks good and can fit the proportions of Villager. Sakurai has played with models and character traits to make them fit his own ideas before, I don't see why this case would really be any different. Especially when Villager already has several alts with unique hairstyles and costumes.

My main point is that it isn't some massive stretch to say she could be a Villager Echo like some other characters. She doesn't fit as perfectly as Dark Samus/Shadow, but I think she falls into the Ninten level of Echo fighter that is possible with a slight amount of work. Give her animations cuter touches than the villager, maybe even have her dash attack be a clipboard instead of a pot, and I don't find her as an Echo to be betraying the original character given that they're from the same series. I see her chances as an Echo more likely than fully original in all honesty. I'm very open to her being original if done right, but I can totally see her working as an Echo.

Quick Edit: I get that your point is that her base model in AC isn't 1:1 with the Villager. That's true, but it's so close to being 1:1 as is. Sakurai would be making the model from scratch in all likelihood anyways, thus as long as minor changes don't majorly impact her model in a negative way she can be made to fit over Villager. That wouldn't require some horrendous destruction of her own prior character models. We don't have a precedence for a character that is extremely close to the base, being made to fit 1:1 in Smash. And for reference, I do think that any 1:1 rule absolutely only applies in Smash, not the games they originate from.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not trying to argue the point, she has clearly become the Animal Crossing number two (Though I wonder how much of that has to do with just the cuteness factor). I have no problems with her specifically in that regard (Though again, I have a vast preference to Tom Nook and K.K. Slider if we had to pick a second, but that's just me). I do want her in the game, as I do want a second Animal Crossing rep. Just as a fan, I'm a little bummed she has managed to over shadow those two. Again, I can't actually argue with popularity, so I won't.

I agree that Echo fighters should be practically 1:1 with the original fighter. That's why a lot of suggestions with regards to Echo fighters I do find a little too nonsensical. Isabelle isn't one of them. She doesn't exactly fit the Villager, but she's damn close. So close as to I imagine you could easily tweak her model to fit on Villager. Her biggest issue with being a Villager Echo seems to be her lack of the rounded hands, her hair, and the slight differences that emerge from clothing choices (E.G. Villager's body looks longer because of the more baggy shirt, Isabelle doesn't wear shoes). I don't think it would be a stretch to create an Isabelle model that looks good and can fit the proportions of Villager. Sakurai has played with models and character traits to make them fit his own ideas before, I don't see why this case would really be any different. Especially when Villager already has several alts with unique hairstyles and costumes.

My main point is that it isn't some massive stretch to say she could be a Villager Echo like some other characters. She doesn't fit as perfectly as Dark Samus/Shadow, but I think she falls into the Ninten level of Echo fighter that is possible with a slight amount of work. Give her animations cuter touches than the villager, maybe even have her dash attack be a clipboard instead of a pot, and I don't find her as an Echo to be betraying the original character given that they're from the same series. I see her chances as an Echo more likely than fully original in all honesty. I'm very open to her being original if done right, but I can totally see her working as an Echo.

Quick Edit: I get that your point is that her base model in AC isn't 1:1 with the Villager. That's true, but it's so close to being 1:1 as is. Sakurai would be making the model from scratch in all likelihood anyways, thus as long as minor changes don't majorly impact her model in a negative way she can be made to fit over Villager. That wouldn't require some horrendous destruction of her own prior character models. We don't have a precedence for a character that is extremely close to the base, being made to fit 1:1 in Smash. And for reference, I do think that any 1:1 rule absolutely only applies in Smash, not the games they originate from.

We have no reason to believe that "being close" is enough. It's either the same or isn't. It's fair to argue that close enough might still be okay, obviously. But I'd rather take an official word as the real factor myself. To each their own though.

Also, when a character has a really similar model, they're turned into a regular clone. You can still be nearly identical without being an Echo. That's what Dr. Mario was in Melee. He's still a regular clone to this day while having more differences. The thing is, Isabelle can do Villager's moveset, but doesn't already have a model.

The point that I was making earlier that seems to be missed is that Echoes are super easy to make. If he has to already make a new model just to make an Echo, he's putting a lot more work than normal. At that point, he'd be wasting time just for an Echo, especially since Isabelle would get the model retweaked to rematch her proportions. It's a lot of extra steps. To be clear; Ignore current model that is somewhat similar > Make 1:1 model(that is, it could work as an Alt Costume, which is what Echoes are too, glorified alt costumes. Even Daisy still is pretty much an alt at this point when it comes to her actual model, just given her own slot) > give new moveset to model > tweak it here and there, possibly changing their physical size to better fit the character/moves > add other animations/Final Smash that don't mess with the actual moveset alone

For a clone it's; Use a similar model > recreate moveset by reusing the skeleton for animations > add any small differences if necessary > do extra animations.

In general, an Echo is intended to be far easier than a clone. When you need to make an all new model, you're making an extra step to make them an Echo alone. It makes perfect sense to make her a regular clone if it takes less time, which is the point of how easy clones/echoes are. They don't take as much time as a more unique fighter. So the least time-based route(obviously assuming the actual moveset does a good job of working) is the route that is logical to take. Clones and Echoes are shortcuts to creating new fighters. Shortcuts imply the "shortest route possible". I hope that ultimately clears up my point of what I believe is most likely to happen(Isabelle being unique or a clone/semi-clone and not an Echo).

 

[EricTheGamerman]

We have no reason to believe that "being close" is enough. It's either the same or isn't. It's fair to argue that close enough might still be okay, obviously. But I'd rather take an official word as the real factor myself. To each their own though.

Also, when a character has a really similar model, they're turned into a regular clone. You can still be nearly identical without being an Echo. That's what Dr. Mario was in Melee. He's still a regular clone to this day while having more differences. The thing is, Isabelle can do Villager's moveset, but doesn't already have a model.

The point that I was making earlier that seems to be missed is that Echoes are super easy to make. If he has to already make a new model just to make an Echo, he's putting a lot more work than normal. At that point, he'd be wasting time just for an Echo, especially since Isabelle would get the model retweaked to rematch her proportions. It's a lot of extra steps. To be clear; Ignore current model that is somewhat similar > Make 1:1 model(that is, it could work as an Alt Costume, which is what Echoes are too, glorified alt costumes. Even Daisy still is pretty much an alt at this point when it comes to her actual model, just given her own slot) > give new moveset to model > tweak it here and there, possibly changing their physical size to better fit the character/moves > add other animations/Final Smash that don't mess with the actual moveset alone

For a clone it's; Use a similar model > recreate moveset by reusing the skeleton for animations > add any small differences if necessary > do extra animations.

In general, an Echo is intended to be far easier than a clone. When you need to make an all new model, you're making an extra step to make them an Echo alone. It makes perfect sense to make her a regular clone if it takes less time, which is the point of how easy clones/echoes are. They don't take as much time as a more unique fighter. So the least time-based route(obviously assuming the actual moveset does a good job of working) is the route that is logical to take. Clones and Echoes are shortcuts to creating new fighters. Shortcuts imply the "shortest route possible". I hope that ultimately clears up my point of what I believe is most likely to happen(Isabelle being unique or a clone/semi-clone and not an Echo).

Ah, I see how you're defining Echo differently from me now. I had taken Echo fighters to be the new full clone status, thus made zero distinction between them and Echo fighters. They're extremely close in definition already, and both take such little time in comparison to even semi-clones.

I will say, having 4 levels of character seems a bit much to me (Original Fighter, Semi-Clone, Clone, and Echo). Outside of Trinen's comments which I wasn't completely aware of prior to starting our conversation, I looked at Echo fighters as the way of re-branding the full clone characters on Sakurai's part. His way of finally getting people to shut up about Echo fighters taking a roster spot by deeming them something else and having them exist differently from other characters on a roster. I made no distinction between a clone and an Echo, just because it felt like a needless level of classification. I'll admit I could be wrong on that, and Trinen's comments could echo a different sentiment from them just being clones. But it feels like a poor play to me to market Echo fighters, and then still include Clone fighters.

Semi-clones are fine, and I think Isabelle could take that role just fine as well for reference. Though if Isabelle is a semi, and Dixie Kong can't even get in as one, I will have a very legitimate reason to be angry at the handling of this game, because that is actually the same amount of work between two fighters in that situation.

Despite all that, I would assume they still have to build the Echo fighter off of the original fighter. If you can build the alts on Villager as they have up until this point, I still don't necessarily see how it would be all that much work to build Isabelle on the same model considering how close her proportions are. Even in the case of clone characters, it makes more sense to take the original as the base model and build around that as necessary. But this is just both of us speculating on how the process works, so I guess we can't really argue anything definitively.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ah, I see how you're defining Echo differently from me now. I had taken Echo fighters to be the new full clone status, thus made zero distinction between them and Echo fighters. They're extremely close in definition already, and both take such little time in comparison to even semi-clones.

I will say, having 4 levels of character seems a bit much to me (Original Fighter, Semi-Clone, Clone, and Echo). Outside of Trinen's comments which I wasn't completely aware of prior to starting our conversation, I looked at Echo fighters as the way of re-branding the full clone characters on Sakurai's part. His way of finally getting people to shut up about Echo fighters taking a roster spot by deeming them something else and having them exist differently from other characters on a roster. I made no distinction between a clone and an Echo, just because it felt like a needless level of classification. I'll admit I could be wrong on that, and Trinen's comments could echo a different sentiment from them just being clones. But it feels like a poor play to me to market Echo fighters, and then still include Clone fighters.

Semi-clones are fine, and I think Isabelle could take that role just fine as well for reference. Though if Isabelle is a semi, and Dixie Kong can't even get in as one, I will have a very legitimate reason to be angry at the handling of this game, because that is actually the same amount of work between two fighters in that situation.

Despite all that, I would assume they still have to build the Echo fighter off of the original fighter. If you can build the alts on Villager as they have up until this point, I still don't necessarily see how it would be all that much work to build Isabelle on the same model considering how close her proportions are. Even in the case of clone characters, it makes more sense to take the original as the base model and build around that as necessary. But this is just both of us speculating on how the process works, so I guess we can't really argue anything definitively.

As I said before, it's 1:1, not close. Close gets you a regular clone. As I also said before, Bill Trinen could be wrong. It's not much to go off of, but a lot do misunderstand what Echoes are. It's not the "new term for clone", it's just a new kind of clone. It's not actually common knowledge either. So yeah, the fact you didn't know isn't even surprising. Not even SmashWiki shows this information for some reason(though my guess is they aren't sure Bill is the most official to take into account?).

But regardless, some don't consider Semi-Clone a thing. It isn't an actual official term outside of the fandom(but does have some clear points that people use, so at least it's very clear). Echoes are a new kind of clone. They are literally 1:1 with almost zero differences in how they play, because they're that easy to make. Regular clones are more tweaked, just require a very similar skeleton(see: Toon Link and Link in Brawl), and don't need to be 1:1 proportional, just close. Isabelle falls under the regular clone with her proportions.

When people refer to semi-clone, all it means is a character is based upon another character's model with a small bit of the same moves, but still have a ton of unique ones. It can sometimes be 50/50, 30/70, or even 80/20. The idea is they need a base character, but still have a lot of properties that can make it hard to tell. One can argue semi-clone has two subsets, an actual character who is really similar, but also one who just used a character as a major base. Something many don't know is Sakurai used 4 characters to create the actual Smash 64 Hidden characters. Obviously Luigi is a regular clone of Mario. But Jigglypuff was based upon Kirby(wasn't too hard to tell), and Falcon off of Samus. But Ness was also based upon Mario. So basically, a semi-clone could also be argued to be "just using a base character instead of unique". That's the issue with fan terms. It isn't clear. For Sakurai, when he talks of clones, they're last minute and used a previous character. This is why the Smash 64 hidden characters can be called a type of clone due to their origins. Is it accurate? Debatable. But it's not entirely wrong with how Sakurai does things.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

As I said before, it's 1:1, not close. Close gets you a regular clone. As I also said before, Bill Trinen could be wrong. It's not much to go off of, but a lot do misunderstand what Echoes are. It's not the "new term for clone", it's just a new kind of clone. It's not actually common knowledge either. So yeah, the fact you didn't know isn't even surprising. Not even SmashWiki shows this information for some reason(though my guess is they aren't sure Bill is the most official to take into account?).

But regardless, some don't consider Semi-Clone a thing. It isn't an actual official term outside of the fandom(but does have some clear points that people use, so at least it's very clear). Echoes are a new kind of clone. They are literally 1:1 with almost zero differences in how they play, because they're that easy to make. Regular clones are more tweaked, just require a very similar skeleton(see: Toon Link and Link in Brawl), and don't need to be 1:1 proportional, just close. Isabelle falls under the regular clone with her proportions.

When people refer to semi-clone, all it means is a character is based upon another character's model with a small bit of the same moves, but still have a ton of unique ones. It can sometimes be 50/50, 30/70, or even 80/20. The idea is they need a base character, but still have a lot of properties that can make it hard to tell. One can argue semi-clone has two subsets, an actual character who is really similar, but also one who just used a character as a major base. Something many don't know is Sakurai used 4 characters to create the actual Smash 64 Hidden characters. Obviously Luigi is a regular clone of Mario. But Jigglypuff was based upon Kirby(wasn't too hard to tell), and Falcon off of Samus. But Ness was also based upon Mario. So basically, a semi-clone could also be argued to be "just using a base character instead of unique". That's the issue with fan terms. It isn't clear. For Sakurai, when he talks of clones, they're last minute and used a previous character. This is why the Smash 64 hidden characters can be called a type of clone due to their origins. Is it accurate? Debatable. But it's not entirely wrong with how Sakurai does things.

I generally do trust Bill Trinen, so I'll take his word on that. Though again, we don't know completely how Sakurai works on Echo fighters. I honestly really thought the main distinction would be if the character had their own roster spot or not (Maybe series number seeing as how we don't actually know the details on how you select an Echo fighter). Considering that uses the Epsilon symbol, I think that's really going to be the main distinction is if the character is defined as such.

To be fair, I'm going off the generally accepted definitions I've seen pop up in communities time and time again with these terms. So I'm not using the completely official definitions when I use these terms. And that is probably where our conversation is stemming from in the first place. Has Sakurai formally ever made those distinctions himself? I'm genuinely curious on that front cause he's the primary person I'll trust when it comes to how characters and elements from Smash are defined... (Though you could argue the whole death of the creator point as well, especially given how much Smash has evolved into a competitive game despite some of Sakurai's other wishes).

So if Isabelle arrives in the game, and plays completely the same as Villager with only the tweaks we've seen with Daisy and Lucina, that amount to animation differences, you're saying that she is just a regular clone (Let's assume that she isn't confirmed one way or the other somehow for the sake of conversation). Right?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I generally do trust Bill Trinen, so I'll take his word on that. Though again, we don't know completely how Sakurai works on Echo fighters. I honestly really thought the main distinction would be if the character had their own roster spot or not (Maybe series number seeing as how we don't actually know the details on how you select an Echo fighter). Considering that uses the Epsilon symbol, I think that's really going to be the main distinction is if the character is defined as such.

To be fair, I'm going off the generally accepted definitions I've seen pop up in communities time and time again with these terms. So I'm not using the completely official definitions when I use these terms. And that is probably where our conversation is stemming from in the first place. Has Sakurai formally ever made those distinctions himself? I'm genuinely curious on that front cause he's the primary person I'll trust when it comes to how characters and elements from Smash are defined... (Though you could argue the whole death of the creator point as well, especially given how much Smash has evolved into a competitive game despite some of Sakurai's other wishes).

So if Isabelle arrives in the game, and plays completely the same as Villager with only the tweaks we've seen with Daisy and Lucina, that amount to animation differences, you're saying that she is just a regular clone (Let's assume that she isn't confirmed one way or the other somehow for the sake of conversation). Right?

Well, no. Isabelle is just unlikely to be an Echo in the first place due to more work needed than normal.

She may be a clone or an echo. But there's enough reasons to believe she's more likely as a clone, since it'd be less work. We can't say for sure till it happens. Besides that, we'll know if she's an Echo or not by her designation, not just the moveset. Sakurai is likely to explain how he made Isabelle whether she's an echo or more unique anyway. She's that popular of a character.

But yeah, the problem with a lot of community definitions is they can often lack research. For instance, how often does 4th Party, something that doesn't exist in any way, get used? It's a meaningless term because anybody that Nintendo doesn't own is 3rd party. Doesn't matter if they were first from a game or not. Goku is 3rd party. Sonic is 3rd party. All 3rd parties have that's important is the requirement of licensing.

But that's just a good example of why fan definitions can become poor. Even without Bill Trinen, we're already aware that Echoes are so severely similar you can't really have a new playstyle and have the exact same basic moves(Final Smash is the sole possible exception) with tangible differences. We know this from Smash 4 alone. The 1:1 thing is an official statement, but I do agree with your point that it could be a bit off and "extremely close skeleton" could be enough. Not that it necessarily is true(that close enough is good enough) so much as that we can't say for sure it's inaccurate. But for now, I'd rather believe the official statement. Not everybody does, and that's fine, but even without that, we know the that all animations have to barely different at least, and according to Bill, weight and similar attributes need to be the same(overall running speed, for instance) with move properties being the same function(this is more of an apparently thing) but can have overall slight tweaks. I think this "function" bit is likely why Bill specifically used Megavitamins as an example, as it functions differently from the Fireball overall.

 

[Starbound]

I haven't played Xenoblade 2 since its launch (mostly because I hated the game) so I don't quite know what Elma would do, but I thought about the Skell mechanic (alongside that Mech figma from a Sakurai tweet from years ago) and came up with this interesting mechanic for her. Or at least, I think it's interesting.

Elma fights in the Skell. The skell is sized down to like Ridley sized. The mech takes reduced damage like Jr's Clown Car, and it's impossible to damage Elma while in the skell. Unsurprisingly, she's also a heavy weight in the mech. She has the full gauntlet of weapons while suited up: beam swords, missiles, shields, lasers and guns. The moves are pretty sluggish, but the tanking ability is unrivaled.

However, once Elma surpasses 100%, the Skell self-destructs (doing no damage) due to taking too much damage and Elma is on the battlefield. Here, she's a ligher weight character, and similar in proportions to Peach. She's much faster out of the Skell, but, given that she's already at higher percent, she'll die substantially easier. Unlike Jr., she doesn't take increased damage. She still has her Dual Swords and Dual Guns, so she isn't totally helpless either (she's still pretty strong, and she does have rage on her side too).

The final smash varies depending on the form: In the Skell form, Elma will forcibly explode the Skell dealing massive damage in a huge AoE. On foot form, Elma uses Hundred Shells, firing a torrent of blasts at her foe.

idk, I really like transforming characters.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think regardless of whether Isabelle could realistically be an Echo Fighter or not, I think the character has enough weight with both fandom and Nintendo for Sakurai to go for a unique moveset.

 

[AEMehr]

Also, for Echoes, the only information we actually were told besides the fact they're obviously based upon other characters is that they're 1:1 copies of the other character(which means only slightly tweaked movesets, Final Smash aside, and the same weight as well. Overall what was told to us). One can argue that Bill Trinen was incorrect and that's fine. But it's the closest thing to an official statement we have that determines how to understand them. So we have nothing to go on beyond this and at this time, it's better to use an official thing than to assume it's wrong.

This mindset is just actually wrong. You have no reason to believe anything is working the same way at all. If anything, the very in your face inclusion of Daisy let alone the whole reintroduction of Clone Fighters as a "feature" means they are definitely not being handled the same way at all.

But hey, if you want to believe everything NoA translates or assumes be my guest. I love that the Assist Trophies had a role in All-Star mode.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

As far as realistic choices for the roster, I believe the characters with the best chances as unique newcomers are Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Ashley, Bandana Dee, a Gen 7 Pokemon, Elma, Mach Rider, Geno

>Geno
>best chances
Pick one. He's a literal who from a game released over twenty years ago and hasn't been featured in anything since aside from a cameo in Superstar Saga, which was removed in the remake. He couldn't even get into the Mario sports games that Square Enix developed on the DS and Wii. As far as Mario RPG reps go, Paper Mario is the definitive choice. He is the star of his own series, and before people say he is just another Mario, Paper Jam confirmed that Mario and Paper Mario live in separate universes. As far as Square Enix reps go, why would they not go with a character from Dragon Quest, one of the most popular series in Japan? Geno can't hold a candle to either of these characters. Why would he be prioritized just because he's wanted by a vocal minority?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

>Geno
>best chances
Pick one. He's a literal who from a game released over twenty years ago and hasn't been featured in anything since aside from a cameo in Superstar Saga, which was removed in the remake. He couldn't even get into the Mario sports games that Square Enix developed on the DS and Wii. As far as Mario RPG reps go, Paper Mario is the definitive choice. He is the star of his own series, and before people say he is just another Mario, Paper Jam confirmed that Mario and Paper Mario live in separate universes. As far as Square Enix reps go, why would they not go with a character from Dragon Quest, one of the most popular series in Japan? Geno can't hold a candle to either of these characters. Why would he be prioritized just because he's wanted by a vocal minority?

Because that vocal minority has been around for years requesting him, the minority isn’t quite as minor as you seem to be implying, and Sakurai has mentioned wanting to add him?

I get that people who want Geno are often a subset of the Smash speculation community that isn’t even a huge portion of those who play Smash... I’d say most of that large portion is pretty satisfied though, and wouldn’t care who gets in once you have like say the Inklings in the game as someone new they can recognize and play.

Smash newcomers definitely have hype, but I think the community plays a large role in determining just how far that hype can go. I think a lot of people tend to latch on to characters that the community supports heavily, which isn’t a problem, and likely they would with Geno as well I’d imagine. We’re all a giant vocal minority any SmashBoards to be completely honest. As are most people who take games as seriously as we do despite the growing overall industry for them. I just don’t like how we toss around the majority vs the minority when the actual majority for a game like Smash is likely already super content.

Beyond that, I don’t see why those need to al be mutually exclusive ideas. I know we’re working with limited roster spots, but there is nothing to say Geno can’t get in as well as someone like Paper Mario or another Square rep. Geno exists in a very weird place that you can’t quite judge him by typical third party or first party standards, and he isn’t completely a Mario character either. I feel like people get way too caught up in all of that.

I’m not saying he is super likely, but I do support him amongst others. He is a bigger name fan request (You can’t deny his name gets thrown around a lot). He has a reputation for being wanted in Smash at this point almost like Ridley. And more importantly, in a game based upon fan requests and after the ballot, it may be his only chance. Which is why I think people lean on him so hard for now. It’s the best chance he’s ever going to get, and maybe his final one.

So, what’s the problem with him being included to appease a decent number of hardcore fan? It makes them happy, might help him gain a little more popularity, and people who dislike him don’t have to hear anymore about requests. Paper Mario is likely to continue to have a good chance going forward as well even if he doesn’t make it in to this game in the base roster or as DLC anyway (Which I think he has a decent shot of making it anyway).

 

[Marcello691]

Like I said before, I don't need a second animal crossing rep personally, but if she really is in the game, then please don't be a clone of villager, don't like his playstyle. And I don't see how she could work as clone of villager, I mean I didn't play new leaf on 3ds, but she is not an avatar like villager. She really should have a unique moveset.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We know for a fact that Sakurai wants to add Geno. Being obscure only actually makes it harder for a character to be considered, not necessarily for them to be added. Geno has no real competition after Cloud, the big SE guy. After that, the rest are far less important to add. When Dragon Quest has two viable options(Slime or one of the few named Protagonists), of which neither has super high chances... yeah.

This mindset is just actually wrong. You have no reason to believe anything is working the same way at all. If anything, the very in your face inclusion of Daisy let alone the whole reintroduction of Clone Fighters as a "feature" means they are definitely not being handled the same way at all.

But hey, if you want to believe everything NoA translates or assumes be my guest. I love that the Assist Trophies had a role in All-Star mode.

This doesn't suggest at all they're being handled differently in any way.

Assist Trophies were meant to be a role in All-Star. Not everything works out and we know that.

This also isn't a "translation" for the explanation of how Echo Fighters work(though the term Echo Fighter can be called a Translation, sure). It's a straight explanation that an official Nintendo representitive explained. It's far more correct to believe this than some made up stuff that has nothing to back it up, as well as taking into account actual evidence from the previous game and statements Sakurai made. There's seriously no reason to believe that the 1:1 thing is false when we have actual no information that can back that up. So far, it has been true from both an official statement and the fact that all of them were currently Alt Costumes when created. Daisy doesn't change that because we have no evidence she wasn't an alt first.

So yes, it is a correct mindset to make a decision based upon actual evidence provided. There is no evidence in any way that "close enough" is a legitimate thing for an Echo. That's just being hopeful without being able to back it up. It doesn't mean it is impossible, obviously(as I've said before), but it's still something we actually can cite as a reason here. We cannot cite in any way that "close enough" is a real thing, because it has not been proven to exist. There's a reason why people take someone like Isabelle as impossible to be an Echo, because her proportions are wrong. Why should we believe that isn't the case with zero evidence to back up the idea that she can have different proportions(like Toon Link) and still be made an Echo? Because people want to? That's not a convincing argument at all.

 

[cybersai]

I always thought those Isabelle mods people made in Smash U shows how well she works with Villagers moveset:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-etkuuOXUnc

If Isabelle is an echo I think she'd work fine, watch this video. All they have to do is change some animations, maybe give her some papers to drop instead of a pot, and it'd work fine.

 

[Paper_Marzio]

I always thought those Isabelle mods people made in Smash U shows how well she works with Villagers moveset:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-etkuuOXUnc

If Isabelle is an echo I think she'd work fine, watch this video. All they have to do is change some animations, maybe give her some papers to drop instead of a pot, and it'd work fine.

Didn't think Isabelle would work as an echo initially given proportions but wow that works pretty well

 

[DNeon]

I always thought those Isabelle mods people made in Smash U shows how well she works with Villagers moveset:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-etkuuOXUnc

If Isabelle is an echo I think she'd work fine, watch this video. All they have to do is change some animations, maybe give her some papers to drop instead of a pot, and it'd work fine.

LMAO that's like, checkmate levels of disputing the proportions argument.

EDIT: Also changing the boxing gloves would probably be good, or most moves that involed her actually growing hands in that video.

 

[Ze Diglett]

>Geno
>best chances
Pick one. He's a literal who from a game released over twenty years ago and hasn't been featured in anything since aside from a cameo in Superstar Saga, which was removed in the remake. He couldn't even get into the Mario sports games that Square Enix developed on the DS and Wii. As far as Mario RPG reps go, Paper Mario is the definitive choice. He is the star of his own series, and before people say he is just another Mario, Paper Jam confirmed that Mario and Paper Mario live in separate universes. As far as Square Enix reps go, why would they not go with a character from Dragon Quest, one of the most popular series in Japan? Geno can't hold a candle to either of these characters. Why would he be prioritized just because he's wanted by a vocal minority?

Honestly, it really bothers me when people call Geno a "literal who". It's kind of like calling King K. Rool a "literal who" at this point. I mean, to someone who's been following Smash for about twenty minutes, maybe? Otherwise, out of all the characters who aren't in yet, his name is one of the most often thrown around within the Smash fanbase, and I, personally, see casual support for him thrown out almost on the daily, even by people who've never played Super Mario RPG. It only helps his case that his competition at this point is basically limited to Paper Mario and maybe Captain Toad on the Mario side, and kind of Sora and a Dragon Quest character (what options really exist besides a generic Slime?) on the Square Enix side, all of which come with their own set of complications that put them below Geno in terms of chances. Simply put, if you've been following Smash for more than about a year or so (i.e. what I'd wager to be a vast majority of Smash fans), odds are you do know who Geno is and that a lot of people have wanted him in for a long time. It's not conclusive, but hey, that's why it's called speculation.
And for the record, I like Paper Mario, too, and I see no reason Geno and a "true" Mario rep (that isn't a clone) can't get in the same game, but for the purposes of priority, he needs to get in line behind Geno, at least until his games stop being ****.

 

[SweetestB0i]

Anyone else find it amusing that everyone used to hate clones like lucina and dark pit so much, but now that they have a name everyone is super excited for more? Not that i dislike the whole echo fighter idea, its just kind of funny.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Anyone else find it amusing that everyone used to hate clones like lucina and dark pit so much, but now that they have a name everyone is super excited for more? Not that i dislike the whole echo fighter idea, its just kind of funny.

It is funny, and a little irritating that so much of the speculation focus has gone towards them this time around. I’d honestly find it more hilarious if all we get is like one more and this whole, the additions are going to primarily be Echo fighters ideology got crushed.

I mean they’re fun little additions, but they do take some development time and should really only be used in very specific cases. Not thrown around quite as liberally as I feel a lot of people want to. Only popular characters that either have less move set potential or lack a chance otherwise should be Echo fighters. Not just any fighter cause they can...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mods are not proof of anything but fan-done stuff. Besides that, it's not like a Mod itself would actually be used in an official Smash game. It's kind of meaningless and doesn't really prove the proportion thing.

Here's the thing; the proportions arguments are due to an official Nintendo employee noting that an Echo has to have 1:1 Proportions. A mod that can do so already made the actual model beforehand and basically created a glorified alt. Alts can easily be Echoes because they're already 1:1. That was a new model tweaked overall to work. This doesn't mean anything for the development of the real game alone. It doesn't refute the proportion argument because it's not the actual development of the real game. If we do find out that they can use models that are "close enough" from Sakurai, sure, that would prove it. But at this time, there's absolutely zero evidence to suggest they can be similar models. Every single model so far that we know development of have been alt costumes turned into Echoes. Daisy could be the exception, but she also might not be. Meaning that because we don't know if she was even an Alt, we can't actually use it for anything remotely worthwhile in the debate here.

What we have are official statements that the first two Echoes(Dark Pit and Lucina) were alt costumes before actually being given their own slot. The term Echo Fighter is coined during Ultimate, sure, but it's still the exact same character, with the same origins(being an alt costume first, which is a 1:1 proportional model). Bill is probably being misinterpreted at this point. His point is more that they could work as alt costumes, which is why they're 1:1 proportional. "Mods" are not alt costumes. They are Mods. They might not even be an Alt Costume and basically have a model that took a lot to make working(like Meta Ridley, as it has a lot of bits and pieces that can cause graphical problems and wouldn't look right. It's not in the demo most likely due to this). This is why they're often called Glorified Alt Costumes, since that's exactly what they are gameplay-wise. The differences are meant to be tangible, so their playstyle could remain near identical. As long as they have differences, they can be an Echo. (as I said before, Daisy could be the first exception, but until we are given any information, it's better to think she was effectively an Alt Costume first, like the other two Echoes. There's more evidence of that, as she's still been a type of costume of Peach beforehand, though a very crappy one after Melee, but still was an alt color to begin with. It's not an unrealistic theory to work with).

That said, obviously I never said I could be wrong. It appears many are under that impression. Of course I could be wrong. Bill could be incorrect too. I acknowledged that more than once. But he also could be completely correct as well. The problem is there's good reason to believe him right now. He's an official Nintendo representative. Sakurai has not made a statement on Echoes, which means it's very possible it's accurate and he has no reason for corrections. Of course, it doesn't inherently mean Bill is 100% correct either. It just means it's better to take an official statement at face value than to assume it's wrong. If there's evidence of an Echo not being what Bill said, we'll find out in due time. But as of now? All the evidence points to Bill being correct, with nothing actually telling us he is "mistranslating" something or whatever.

 

[DNeon]

Mods are not proof of anything but fan-done stuff. Besides that, it's not like a Mod itself would actually be used in an official Smash game. It's kind of meaningless and doesn't really prove the proportion thing.

Here's the thing; the proportions arguments are due to an official Nintendo employee noting that an Echo has to have 1:1 Proportions. A mod that can do so already made the actual model beforehand and basically created a glorified alt. Alts can easily be Echoes because they're already 1:1. That was a new model tweaked overall to work. This doesn't mean anything for the development of the real game alone. It doesn't refute the proportion argument because it's not the actual development of the real game. If we do find out that they can use models that are "close enough" from Sakurai, sure, that would prove it. But at this time, there's absolutely zero evidence to suggest they can be similar models. Every single model so far that we know development of have been alt costumes turned into Echoes. Daisy could be the exception, but she also might not be. Meaning that because we don't know if she was even an Alt, we can't actually use it for anything remotely worthwhile in the debate here.

What we have are official statements that the first two Echoes(Dark Pit and Lucina) were alt costumes before actually being given their own slot. The term Echo Fighter is coined during Ultimate, sure, but it's still the exact same character, with the same origins(being an alt costume first, which is a 1:1 proportional model). Bill is probably being misinterpreted at this point. His point is more that they could work as alt costumes, which is why they're 1:1 proportional. "Mods" are not alt costumes. They are Mods. They might not even be an Alt Costume and basically have a model that took a lot to make working(like Meta Ridley, as it has a lot of bits and pieces that can cause graphical problems and wouldn't look right. It's not in the demo most likely due to this). This is why they're often called Glorified Alt Costumes, since that's exactly what they are gameplay-wise. The differences are meant to be tangible, so their playstyle could remain near identical. As long as they have differences, they can be an Echo. (as I said before, Daisy could be the first exception, but until we are given any information, it's better to think she was effectively an Alt Costume first, like the other two Echoes. There's more evidence of that, as she's still been a type of costume of Peach beforehand, though a very crappy one after Melee, but still was an alt color to begin with. It's not an unrealistic theory to work with).

That said, obviously I never said I could be wrong. It appears many are under that impression. Of course I could be wrong. Bill could be incorrect too. I acknowledged that more than once. But he also could be completely correct as well. The problem is there's good reason to believe him right now. He's an official Nintendo representative. Sakurai has not made a statement on Echoes, which means it's very possible it's accurate and he has no reason for corrections. Of course, it doesn't inherently mean Bill is 100% correct either. It just means it's better to take an official statement at face value than to assume it's wrong. If there's evidence of an Echo not being what Bill said, we'll find out in due time. But as of now? All the evidence points to Bill being correct, with nothing actually telling us he is "mistranslating" something or whatever.

The mod is literal, visual proof that her proportions work with the Villager moveset. It's not gonna be put into the game itself, but it's a direct proof of concept that Isabelle works as an Echo of Villager. The source of 'proportions' argument isn't the issue here, nor it's validity as an argument, it's the argument that she doesn't share the same proportions which is wrong.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The mod is literal, visual proof that her proportions work with the Villager moveset. It's not gonna be put into the game itself, but it's a direct proof of concept that Isabelle works as an Echo of Villager. The source of 'proportions' argument isn't the issue here, nor it's validity as an argument, it's the argument that she doesn't share the same proportions which is wrong.

The character doesn't even flow right, honestly. She looks really off and unprofessional. She doesn't have the right face either. So it's neither proof of an actual official Echo or even good quality work.

She has a happy face. Her entire face is completely pasted with no real emotion shown. She looks extremely stiff with her legs. Honestly? This is even further proof it doesn't work. Because she has the wrong type of body to directly use the animations. She needs tweaks to work. Much bigger tweaks to look remotely right.

The video only shows why she would look more accurate as a clone, not an Echo. Her proportions are still off as well. Alt costumes actually look right. She just looks like a bad mod. So I'm calling bull on this being a legitimate example when she looks entirely wrong design-wise. Now if they improved the mod so she isn't just a costume and tweak her animations, cool. But right now it's just a mod(which they do deserve credit for making it "work", but not work well). This looks honestly as good as the various Ridley mods I've seen, same with Steve? over Toon Link. That is, not really all that well. It's cool, but does not look like a proper Echo either. Echoes, all of them, actually look like they move correctly. She doesn't. And that's why Echoes use 1:1 proportions(which she honestly looks actually pretty off like the stretched the model a little to make it work without accounting for even bothering to make her look remotely accurate), because they actually look proper when used as an alt costume. I've seen a lot of mods beyond this, including a Shadow mod that used Sonic as a base, but did things like the ability to summon the Shooting items in Brawl. Want to know something? He looked way better than this because they correctly made his animations work and didn't try to basic force the model into the moveset. It's the only reason it worked, because they did it right. This... is honestly a very underwhelming mod that shows how bad her proportions are.

Maybe if they do more work on this, she could look like a good character, but right now this looks terrible. The thing about 1:1 proportions is that when using moves, they don't like stiff. They actually look right. This does not look right. I'd like to see them actually finish the mod at some point, because it looks fun to use, but actually make it so Isabelle is done correctly. That means a happy-go-lucky face. I wonder if this is in the early development stages, which would explain why it's pretty bad.

 

[DNeon]

he character doesn't even flow right, honestly. She looks really off and unprofessional. She doesn't have the right face either. So it's neither proof of an actual official Echo or even good quality work.

She has a happy face. Her entire face is completely pasted with no real emotion shown. She looks extremely stiff with her legs.

...maybe because it's a mod...that just uses an existing asset (assist trophy) and doesn't have any new animations to it?

Like...your entire post about it is that it's unpolished...no ****? It's an onofficial mod? It DOES work as a proof of concept, because that's the point of a proof of concept, prove that the idea works without doing the nitty gritty of it. All your criticisms are down to animation flourishes and polishes to get her personality through.

 

[AEMehr]

This doesn't suggest at all they're being handled differently in any way.

Wrong

Assist Trophies were meant to be a role in All-Star. Not everything works out and we know that.

Wrong again
http://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/10/sakurai-didnt-say-that/#[4]

This also isn't a "translation" for the explanation of how Echo Fighters work(though the term Echo Fighter can be called a Translation, sure). It's a straight explanation that an official Nintendo representitive explained. It's far more correct to believe this than some made up stuff that has nothing to back it up, as well as taking into account actual evidence from the previous game and statements Sakurai made. There's seriously no reason to believe that the 1:1 thing is false when we have actual no information that can back that up. So far, it has been true from both an official statement and the fact that all of them were currently Alt Costumes when created. Daisy doesn't change that because we have no evidence she wasn't an alt first.

Just like how Assist Trophies were confirmed to play a role in All-Star from an official Nintendo Representitive's Translation.
The team does not limit themselves to an arbitrary ruleset to add any fighter, echo or not. To state that a fighter cannot be intentionally made into a clone fighter from the start is ludicrous. Developmentally, it makes way more sense for clone fighters to be part of the project plan as it was outright stated to not expect too many new fighters. By reintroducing the concept of Echo Fighters more-as a feature as opposed to never directly mentioning them to the general public should make it obvious that Daisy is far from a single inclusion.

Additionally, Daisy actually has a unique fighting stance from Peach, and will likely have unique idle animations as well. Something Lucina and Dark Pit did not have in their debut games and frustratingly do not have at all right now either. If anything, that's a pretty notable difference from how clone characters were added in the previous game. If you wish to turn a blind eye and not consider what is actually behind the scenes, you can be surprised when your expectations are surpassed.

So yes, it is a correct mindset to make a decision based upon actual evidence provided. There is no evidence in any way that "close enough" is a legitimate thing for an Echo. That's just being hopeful without being able to back it up. It doesn't mean it is impossible, obviously(as I've said before), but it's still something we actually can cite as a reason here. We cannot cite in any way that "close enough" is a real thing, because it has not been proven to exist. There's a reason why people take someone like Isabelle as impossible to be an Echo, because her proportions are wrong. Why should we believe that isn't the case with zero evidence to back up the idea that she can have different proportions(like Toon Link) and still be made an Echo? Because people want to? That's not a convincing argument at all.

So, "this happened last time so it's going to happen like this again"? No Smash game has ever had a 1:1 process to another one, so again, this mindset is super flawed.

 

[Marcello691]

Honestly, it really bothers me when people call Geno a "literal who". It's kind of like calling King K. Rool a "literal who" at this point. I mean, to someone who's been following Smash for about twenty minutes, maybe? Otherwise, out of all the characters who aren't in yet, his name is one of the most often thrown around within the Smash fanbase, and I, personally, see casual support for him thrown out almost on the daily, even by people who've never played Super Mario RPG. It only helps his case that his competition at this point is basically limited to Paper Mario and maybe Captain Toad on the Mario side, and kind of Sora and a Dragon Quest character (what options really exist besides a generic Slime?) on the Square Enix side, all of which come with their own set of complications that put them below Geno in terms of chances. Simply put, if you've been following Smash for more than about a year or so (i.e. what I'd wager to be a vast majority of Smash fans), odds are you do know who Geno is and that a lot of people have wanted him in for a long time. It's not conclusive, but hey, that's why it's called speculation.
And for the record, I like Paper Mario, too, and I see no reason Geno and a "true" Mario rep (that isn't a clone) can't get in the same game, but for the purposes of priority, he needs to get in line behind Geno, at least until his games stop being ****.

Do you really compare Geno to King K. rool???

 

[GoodGrief741]

Anyone else find it amusing that everyone used to hate clones like lucina and dark pit so much, but now that they have a name everyone is super excited for more? Not that i dislike the whole echo fighter idea, its just kind of funny.

Pre-E3, I kinda wanted Lucina, Robin and Corrin to get cut, if only so that it meant we could someday get Lyn and Chrom without whining from people crying over FE overrepresentation. I didn’t really have any problem with Dark Pit because I like his character, and Dr. Mario was an unnecessary but alright addition.
However, after seeing everyone is back, I find it pretty hard to complain about anything with the roster.

Do you really compare Geno to King K. rool???

It’s really not a farfetched comparison in 2018.

 

[cybersai]

K. Rool and Geno compared makes no sense, Geno was only ever in one game and an RPG at that.

K. Rool is the main villain of 6 DK games, 9 if you count the Land games on GB different from the SNES ones, and keep in mind the DKC trilogy was ported to GBA in the early 2000's, let alone all the Virtual Console releases.

Far more people know who K. Rool is in general than Geno. I didn't even play Super Mario RPG for the first time till 2007, which was a decade after it came out in 1996. Granted 2007 is now also 11 years ago, but even back in 2007 that was considered "late."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...maybe because it's a mod...that just uses an existing asset (assist trophy) and doesn't have any new animations to it?

Like...your entire post about it is that it's unpolished...no ****? It's an onofficial mod? It DOES work as a proof of concept, because that's the point of a proof of concept, prove that the idea works without doing the nitty gritty of it. All your criticisms are down to animation flourishes and polishes to get her personality through.

Yes, it's unpolished and looks honestly like a terrible alt. Echoes don't. In fact, we are shown good alts by that point. This only shows of why it currently isn't working because it's just that bad. When a finished mod comes out that doesn't look like utter **** comes out? Sure, post that and you'll have some real proof. Bad beta designs are not proof of anything.

Wrong

It's not wrong, though. At all. Daisy being introduced as the latest Echo Fighter is doing nothing but a PR statement. It doesn't change anything we know of development. There is literally no reason to think so.

Wrong again
http://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/10/sakurai-didnt-say-that/#[4]

Just like how Assist Trophies were confirmed to play a role in All-Star from an official Nintendo Representitive's Translation.
The team does not limit themselves to an arbitrary ruleset to add any fighter, echo or not. To state that a fighter cannot be intentionally made into a clone fighter from the start is ludicrous. Developmentally, it makes way more sense for clone fighters to be part of the project plan as it was outright stated to not expect too many new fighters. By reintroducing the concept of Echo Fighters more-as a feature as opposed to never directly mentioning them to the general public should make it obvious that Daisy is far from a single inclusion.

There is nothing to suggest Daisy wasn't last minute either. Lucina was shown off to introduce that clones were back essentially in 4. In fact, she was used as a perfect example of why "clones" get their own slots no matter how little the difference is. That's how she was used as a PR statement overall. Nobody knew how she worked till Sakurai explained further. He himself did not elaborate on Daisy.

That said, I forget about that translation error. But that was from a Miiverse post to begin with. Not from two employees talking without somebody being translated to our knowledge. There's kind of nothing untranslated we know of to take from, which means there's not really a good reason to believe Bill is misunderstanding something.

Additionally, Daisy actually has a unique fighting stance from Peach, and will likely have unique idle animations as well. Something Lucina and Dark Pit did not have in their debut games and frustratingly do not have at all right now either. If anything, that's a pretty notable difference from how clone characters were added in the previous game. If you wish to turn a blind eye and not consider what is actually behind the scenes, you can be surprised when your expectations are surpassed.

There is nothing to suggest this is really a big difference. We already knew they can have some unique animations due to the taunts being different. Daisy showed little to begin with of note, that, gasp, only their moveset has to be almost entirely the same with tiny tweaks. We already knew that. Daisy was also not actually directly explained about that from the getgo. Bill noted that. He's the only reason we even knew they could have other animations. We were never led to believe that the animations for things other than the moveset had to be exactly the same so this is hardly meaningful to begin with.

So, "this happened last time so it's going to happen like this again"? No Smash game has ever had a 1:1 process to another one, so again, this mindset is super flawed.

That's ridiculous to even think it's a serious flaw to begin with. Until something proves it wrong outright, using the previous process is the only one to think of would likely be used. It doesn't mean it will, but there's no reason to believe otherwise than "Meh, he never repeats things." Except when he does. He has never once made a new clone outside of last-minute. Echoes are still clones. Why on earth should we believe this would change when it's a consistent 1:1 process. If not the most consistent one he's done every time. And in a twist, has so far been let known that every Echo are 1:1 animations for all their attack moves. Something that isn't proven wrong by Lucina and Dark Pit. It just means they don't have to have new animations. However, don't forget that the Final Smashes are strictly animation changes too, and were changed. We already knew that, along with taunts, means some animations don't have to be 1:1 to begin with. Daisy didn't show anything directly new. We basically knew it could happen, just didn't see it yet.

Just like we could get Echoes who aren't 1:1, but currently we have more evidence to suggest they won't happen. If somebody said Echoes would never get new Idle Animations, it would not be a bad argument as evidence is in their favor. Nobody is even discounting the idea that an Echo could be created off of a similar model. But it's unlikely due to the evidence we have. Daisy isn't exactly something that proves anything to begin with. You're forgetting that Ultimate has been working on for over 2 years. We don't know when Daisy was finished as an Echo. Or when she even started as one. We don't even know if she was an Alt first like the other two were in their debut. Could she be? Sure. Could she not be? Sure. But so far? There's not exactly any evidence to suggest she couldn't have been an Alt to begin with. She was already a type of costume to a degree since Melee. We already knew that. So it's quite possible she was an Alt already before being cloned off of Peach. Besides that, I never said this is indefinitely the case anyway. I said that we know so far that Echoes have been 1:1 to begin with, as we have an official statement.

As for your example about AT's? This has nothing to do with Bill's statement. His PR statement was not some translation like that Miiverse post was. We don't know where he got the information. He don't know if it was a vague statement by Sakurai, as he wasn't there. Bill could totally be wrong. And that's fine. The thing is, his PR statement has nothing that explains the origins beyond his words meaning there's no real reason to believe it's a mistranslation. He even was using a proper analogy, as Megavitamins function differently from the Fireballs. People just didn't seem to feel they were nearly as different as they actually are. More importantly, Echoes have the same move functions with very very tiny tweaks outside of Final Smashes, which is kind of the main reason his analogy existed, as despite it seeming bad, he was using a fairly good example of how a function is kind of important to the difference between an Echo and Clone. But then again... maybe it didn't mean anything and he was using a legit poor analogy. Who knows. But why should we honestly believe Bill is incorrect? You can't really cite it as a translation error at this point. It was a separate statement with two employees that didn't have Sakurai there or an actual literal translator.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

I believe Sakurai is trying to please as many fans as possible with this game, and I think the characters will reflect this. So basically, this prediction is trying to please as many Smash fans as possible while also being realistic.

Simon Belmont - Vergeben

Banjo- - 20th anniversary this year, is an iconic character from Nintendo’s past and could reintroduce him to the modern era like Mega Man’s inclusion into Smash 4 did

King K. Rool - We could always use more villains and heavyweights. He is also a very prominent character in Donkey Kong Country with a funny personality.

Geno - Sakurai has wanted to include him in both Brawl and Smash 4 and he is still heavily requested, inevitable at this point.

Isaac - We have yet to see his assist trophy and he would provide a unique playstyle and would represent an older Nintendo franchise (Golden Sun)

Chibi-Robo - He actually had a huge spike in votes the last few days of the ballot when Nintendo stated that Zip-Lash would determine the future of the Chibi-Robo franchise. And, just like Isaac, would provide for a unique playstyle and represent an older Nintendo franchise (Chibi-Robo)

Echo Fighters -

Dixie Kong - People still want Dixie Kong, but K. Rool is undisputedly the most requested character, so she could become an echo of Diddy because of their similar figure. But her up special could be remeniscient of Donkey Kong’s up special to make her more of a unique echo fighter.

Impa - She has been in more LOZ games than Sheik, but at this point she might need to become an echo fighter of her in order to make it in. She is the only other recurring character yet to make it into Smash.

Bandana Dee - Popular character request? Yes. Does everyone think he is worthy? No. Therefore, making him an echo fighter of Kirby is the best possible compromise. I have no idea what his neutral special could be though

Isabelle - Vergeben and basically the face of Animal Crossing at this point. And we could always use more female characters.

THESE NEXT 3 MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS IN FAVOR OF THESE CHARACTERS, BUT MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED IF THEY WERE LEFT OUT THAN IF THEY WERE INCLUDED

Dark Samus - Metroid is a very popular Nintendo franchise, and this would be the best way to promote Metroid Prime 4 with the smallest amount of effort possible.

Shadow - Don’t need to explain this one

Octoling - Splatoon is still very popular and Octolings are as well, so why not have a 2nd Splatoon Rep?

Barely Missed Out (Possible Assist Trophies) -
Wonder Red
Paper Mario
Captain Toad
Chorus Kids
Professor Layton

Potential DLC -
Gen 7 Pokemon Rep (Decidueye, Mimikyu or Lycanroc)
Rex and Pyra
Springman (Alternate Costumes are other characters like Bowser Jr. and Inkling)
Character Costumes

Feel free to tell me how wrong I am!

 

[cybersai]

I find Banjo-Kazooie very unlikely. I mean aside from him being owned by Microsoft now, I don't think Nintendo would even allow Sakurai to add him even if he wanted to. It's a lot different when the competitor actually has a console competing against Nintendo, then just other third party characters/companies.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing about Geno and K. Rool is that Geno is actively wanted to be in by Sakurai. This already gives him a leg up on many niche characters. K. Rool, whether you like it or not, isn't all that big or known. He may not get in. Dixie is more known. She may get in due to that alone. Sakurai knows people want all 3 characters. But that doesn't mean he's going to add all 3. At the end of the day, he still has his own biases and chooses those that interest him.

This is also why he thinks Mii Costumes are nice, because they're a nice gift to the fans of the characters. They aren't the same thing, of course, but the idea of them is so people can play as characters not possible in Smash. Mii Fighters are all about that. That can mean many Mii Costumes are for those leftover guys that don't work. Some fans don't like it. And he can't please everyone. But that's been known as his intention.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

I find Banjo-Kazooie very unlikely. I mean aside from him being owned by Microsoft now, I don't think Nintendo would even allow Sakurai to add him even if he wanted to. It's a lot different when the competitor actually has a console competing against Nintendo, then just other third party characters/companies.

That’s a fair point, but if that’s really a concern, then can’t they just buy the rights to use the franchise? I mean it’s not like Microsoft is using it anytime soon

 

[cybersai]

Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno as far back as Brawl, but obviously hasn't either due to complications from Square or realizing he's too niche. I do think he has a good shot this time, but I feel K. Rool is just more widespread. The DKC trilogy alone sold more than most Nintendo games.