Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno as far back as Brawl, but obviously hasn't either due to complications from Square or realizing he's too niche. I do think he has a good shot this time, but I feel K. Rool is just more widespread. The DKC trilogy alone sold more than most Nintendo games.

It probably isn’t the niche franchise thing, because there are still plenty of people that recognize and want him in. I would say it used to be Square Enix that was the problem (I mean the Geno costume is kind of proof of this)

Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno as far back as Brawl, but obviously hasn't either due to complications from Square or realizing he's too niche. I do think he has a good shot this time, but I feel K. Rool is just more widespread. The DKC trilogy alone sold more than most Nintendo games.

Besides, who says we can’t have both?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno as far back as Brawl, but obviously hasn't either due to complications from Square or realizing he's too niche. I do think he has a good shot this time, but I feel K. Rool is just more widespread. The DKC trilogy alone sold more than most Nintendo games.

His statements have so far never really spoke of "niche" being an issue, just implied licensing was an issue in itself.

That’s a fair point, but if that’s really a concern, then can’t they just buy the rights to use the franchise? I mean it’s not like Microsoft is using it anytime soon

Not unless they plan to use it. And they did with Banjo's Minecraft costume quite lately.

Nintendo has to care enough to do so. It'd cost less to simply license them for Smash.

B&K isn't super likely, but it's not simply because of Microsoft alone, but there's other factors; they aren't currently relevant compared to other Microsoft and Rare franchises. Sakurai has barely shown interest in them(only briefly noting them when it came to Melee). Phil Spencer himself cannot license stuff out. He has a boss he answers to. Master Chief and even Steve? may get in due to their iconic status alone. When it comes to relevancy, a character from Killer Instinct, Halo, or Minecraft already win that too. And beyond that, when it comes to a gaming history, which is most often a key factor in choosing a 3rd party, B&K fall short of that. They only really have a small history, and that was the N64 period with two games. They fall pretty short after that and didn't influence gaming as a whole either. Killer Instinct, Battletoads, Minecraft, and Halo all did in their own way. Battletoads was the Beat 'em Up game. Killer Instinct not only defined combos first(it wasn't Street Fighter, of which Ryu's mechanic is about the ability to due unique controls, like a traditional fighting game. Bayo's mechanic is combos), it also defined Announcer Chatter and Combo Breakers. Announcer Chatter is one of the biggest things in video game history, especially for fighting games. Minecraft redefined the Sandbox genre, even before being bought by Microsoft. Halo redefined the FPS genre. B&K... were damn good games, no lying about it(bar the one Xbox game which was just okay), but they didn't redefine the Platforming or Collect-A-Thon genre. Super Mario 64 and Donkey Kong 64 did that already. B&K was just plain better than DK64, and fondly remembered for that. But that was it.

 

[DNeon]

Yes, it's unpolished and looks honestly like a terrible alt. Echoes don't.

Bruh, echos dont because they're made by nintendo and designed to be in the game.

Do you lack any kind of imagination such that you need literal visual of an Ultimate mockup before beleiving something?

by your logic nothing ever works or will work until it's in a game and ready to be shipped

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

His statements have so far never really spoke of "niche" being an issue, just implied licensing was an issue in itself.


Not unless they plan to use it. And they did with Banjo's Minecraft costume quite lately.

Nintendo has to care enough to do so. It'd cost less to simply license them for Smash.

B&K isn't super likely, but it's not simply because of Microsoft alone, but there's other factors; they aren't currently relevant compared to other Microsoft and Rare franchises. Sakurai has barely shown interest in them(only briefly noting them when it came to Melee). Phil Spencer himself cannot license stuff out. He has a boss he answers to. Master Chief and even Steve? may get in due to their iconic status alone. When it comes to relevancy, a character from Killer Instinct, Halo, or Minecraft already win that too. And beyond that, when it comes to a gaming history, which is most often a key factor in choosing a 3rd party, B&K fall short of that. They only really have a small history, and that was the N64 period with two games. They fall pretty short after that and didn't influence gaming as a whole either. Killer Instinct, Battletoads, Minecraft, and Halo all did in their own way. Battletoads was the Beat 'em Up game. Killer Instinct not only defined combos first(it wasn't Street Fighter, of which Ryu's mechanic is about the ability to due unique controls, like a traditional fighting game. Bayo's mechanic is combos), it also defined Announcer Chatter and Combo Breakers. Announcer Chatter is one of the biggest things in video game history, especially for fighting games. Minecraft redefined the Sandbox genre, even before being bought by Microsoft. Halo redefined the FPS genre. B&K... were damn good games, no lying about it(bar the one Xbox game which was just okay), but they didn't redefine the Platforming or Collect-A-Thon genre. Super Mario 64 and Donkey Kong 64 did that already. B&K was just plain better than DK64, and fondly remembered for that. But that was it.

I get your reasoning. It’s fair. I do have a question though. If Rare has never been bought by Microsoft, would Banjo-Kazooie have already been added to Smash. Cause if so, then that would mean licensing is the only thing holding them back.

Bruh, echos dont because they're made by nintendo and designed to be in the game.

Do you lack any kind of imagination such that you need literal visual of an Ultimate mockup before beleiving something?

by your logic nothing ever works or will work until it's in a game and ready to be shipped

To be fair, that’s how most people were with Ridley tbh XD

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I get your reasoning. It’s fair. I do have a question though. If Rare has never been bought by Microsoft, would Banjo-Kazooie have already been added to Smash. Cause if so, then that would mean licensing is the only thing holding them back.

Honestly? Maybe. It depends if his games got good again at all. He's a dead franchise, and it's not Nutz and Bolts fault. They never bothered to give him a game beyond that, the only reason it's dead right now. Meaning it might've died. He could've gotten in as early as Melee or Brawl, but the thing that would've gotten him in is a worthwhile moveset. We don't know what would've happened under that.

Also, please do not double post and edit your messages instead.

Bruh, echos dont because they're made by nintendo and designed to be in the game.

Do you lack any kind of imagination such that you need literal visual of an Ultimate mockup before beleiving something?

by your logic nothing ever works or will work until it's in a game and ready to be shipped

I'm a game developer. That already means I have higher standards than one would think at times. I don't like low quality. Call it ego if you want, but it's still part of why I don't agree with this being strong proof as you claim.

That means when I want to see proof of concept, I want to see something that looks remotely presentable first. This isn't a lack of imagination whatsoever. I don't lack an imagination. So your accusations are completely baseless and honestly quite insulting to begin with. I would appreciate if you actually went over my points instead of taking clear potshots at my intelligence. I don't know why you think that would remotely convince anyone that you could be right, despite the fact I already acknowledged her possibility of being an Echo isn't impossible a while back. Which is different from my original argument to begin with. I already acknowledged I could be wrong. What more do you honestly want here? I don't get it as is. What are you hoping for with this kind of argument? You want to convince someone, not insult them. Think about what you're saying. It comes off poorly because you're more interesting in taking a potshot at someone instead trying to understand their point of view. Yes, me taking Bill's statement as face value can be argued as being too serious and not willing to actually be open, but I'm already open to it. I can disagree with the point but still think it's possible. You know how much I got wrong in smash speculation? Tons of stuff. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. What happens. I'm not going to be ashamed to admit I was wrong. Why would I? I mean, sure, I got an ego, but it doesn't mean I'm going to act like that.

That logic is honestly unfounded and has nothing to do with what I said whatsoever. It's saying something I never once said. You shouldn't strawman me. It doesn't make your argument good. It just makes it poor. Come on, you can be better than that, honestly. I never once applied logic close to that. No, what I said is that I would rather take actual evidence and apply it before speculation only. My speculation is based upon evidence and official statements. You're making it sound like that's completely poor logic when it's not close to it. It's completely reasonable to think patterns are a thing to look at. Doesn't mean they're right, but it doesn't mean they should just be ignored for the sake of it. A pattern isn't wrong until it stops happening anyway.

Your argument is that a bad mod which shows something that doesn't clear work is somehow proof it works. It's not lack of quality because it's not from the Smash Team. It's lack of quality because it is clearly not finished enough to be presentable as something that's convincing. That's why it's bad.

If somebody is trying to show this as proof of concept, it shows she can remotely be modified into a working character while still using the moveset. It doesn't show she can look like an Echo, who are beyond identical. She doesn't look identical. She looks extremely off. It has nothing to do with the Smash Team either. That's not even the point. She looking off when she's nothing more than a literal skin is a problem because it looks bad and shouldn't be allowed in a game as is. Doesn't matter if it's indie, a pure fangame, or whatever. It needs tweaks first. There's literally two responses; "This needs a lot of tweaks to work." and... "This needs a lot of tweaks to work." First one is for an Echo, second is for a Clone. Notice how either way it needs tweaks? It doesn't mean the character will actually work as an Echo depending how development goes. It means they need to tweak it first and decide what can even work. If her animations weren't stiff, she might work as an Echo. But she almost might not because her movements required too many tweaks. That's the problem with it. It's not really proof of concept. It's proof that Isabelle can be reworked from Villager, but until more development is shown(which can be through the mod too), we don't know how well she'd work as an Echo. She can't outright copy every animation, which already puts her in a tight spot for an Echo. How many tweaks would ultimately determined how much work is needed. When the work becomes heavier and heavier, the Echo status(which is basically a super easy clone where all you need is a few tweaks and at best a couple of taunts/unique animations) starts to look less worthwhile and it'd be better to work harder on it so she looks more accurate to herself.

So if you want to know why I don't see it as real proof of concept? It's because it's too unfinished to determine either way.

 

[Starbound]

I keep seeing Isabelle and different proportions brought up but no one has actually said what her different proportions are.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I keep seeing Isabelle and different proportions brought up but no one has actually said what her different proportions are.

Opossum You seem to be a better expect at this point.

 

[DNeon]

Honestly? Maybe. It depends if his games got good again at all. He's a dead franchise, and it's not Nutz and Bolts fault. They never bothered to give him a game beyond that, the only reason it's dead right now. Meaning it might've died. He could've gotten in as early as Melee or Brawl, but the thing that would've gotten him in is a worthwhile moveset. We don't know what would've happened under that.

Also, please do not double post and edit your messages instead.


I'm a game developer. That already means I have higher standards than one would think at times. I don't like low quality. Call it ego if you want, but it's still part of why I don't agree with this being strong proof as you claim.

That means when I want to see proof of concept, I want to see something that looks remotely presentable first. This isn't a lack of imagination whatsoever. I don't lack an imagination. So your accusations are completely baseless and honestly quite insulting to begin with. I would appreciate if you actually went over my points instead of taking clear potshots at my intelligence. I don't know why you think that would remotely convince anyone that you could be right, despite the fact I already acknowledged her possibility of being an Echo isn't impossible a while back. Which is different from my original argument to begin with. I already acknowledged I could be wrong. What more do you honestly want here? I don't get it as is. What are you hoping for with this kind of argument? You want to convince someone, not insult them. Think about what you're saying. It comes off poorly because you're more interesting in taking a potshot at someone instead trying to understand their point of view. Yes, me taking Bill's statement as face value can be argued as being too serious and not willing to actually be open, but I'm already open to it. I can disagree with the point but still think it's possible. You know how much I got wrong in smash speculation? Tons of stuff. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. What happens. I'm not going to be ashamed to admit I was wrong. Why would I? I mean, sure, I got an ego, but it doesn't mean I'm going to act like that.

That logic is honestly unfounded and has nothing to do with what I said whatsoever. It's saying something I never once said. You shouldn't strawman me. It doesn't make your argument good. It just makes it poor. Come on, you can be better than that, honestly. I never once applied logic close to that. No, what I said is that I would rather take actual evidence and apply it before speculation only. My speculation is based upon evidence and official statements. You're making it sound like that's completely poor logic when it's not close to it. It's completely reasonable to think patterns are a thing to look at. Doesn't mean they're right, but it doesn't mean they should just be ignored for the sake of it. A pattern isn't wrong until it stops happening anyway.

Your argument is that a bad mod which shows something that doesn't clear work is somehow proof it works. It's not lack of quality because it's not from the Smash Team. It's lack of quality because it is clearly not finished enough to be presentable as something that's convincing. That's why it's bad.

If somebody is trying to show this as proof of concept, it shows she can remotely be modified into a working character while still using the moveset. It doesn't show she can look like an Echo, who are beyond identical. She doesn't look identical. She looks extremely off. It has nothing to do with the Smash Team either. That's not even the point. She looking off when she's nothing more than a literal skin is a problem because it looks bad and shouldn't be allowed in a game as is. Doesn't matter if it's indie, a pure fangame, or whatever. It needs tweaks first. There's literally two responses; "This needs a lot of tweaks to work." and... "This needs a lot of tweaks to work." First one is for an Echo, second is for a Clone. Notice how either way it needs tweaks? It doesn't mean the character will actually work as an Echo depending how development goes. It means they need to tweak it first and decide what can even work. If her animations weren't stiff, she might work as an Echo. But she almost might not because her movements required too many tweaks. That's the problem with it. It's not really proof of concept. It's proof that Isabelle can be reworked from Villager, but until more development is shown(which can be through the mod too), we don't know how well she'd work as an Echo. She can't outright copy every animation, which already puts her in a tight spot for an Echo. How many tweaks would ultimately determined how much work is needed. When the work becomes heavier and heavier, the Echo status(which is basically a super easy clone where all you need is a few tweaks and at best a couple of taunts/unique animations) starts to look less worthwhile and it'd be better to work harder on it so she looks more accurate to herself.

So if you want to know why I don't see it as real proof of concept? It's because it's too unfinished to determine either way.

Firstly: your definition of proof of concept is really first or even second draft, it's not the definition of proof of concept at all. Asking to put extra effort into a proof of concept literally against the point of a proof of concept, a proof of concept is to determine whether something is worth resources. Asking for it to be 'presentable' is asking for it to be waaaay past 'proof of concept' stage. This is the basic definition of proof of concept, an experiment to see whether it's a feasible option to then develop. My insulting statement about imagination comes from your incorrect use of the word. If you're asking for a proof of concept to be polished then you're demonstrating an inability to actually analyse what can and can't be overcome from the proof of concept. Asking to see polish before greenlighting is a surefire way to waste money and time in a business, you're literally asking to commit resources before determining if it's worth committing resources. If you're telling me that you need something more finalised and then saying that the finalised presentation is the proof of concept then, yes, I will accuse you of poor imagination because that's the opposite of what is needed from a proof of concept. This is where my statement on your logic comes in. If you're asking for finalisation before a proof of concept then you are asking for something to be ready for the game before deciding if it's capable of being in the game. Again, this is down to your misunderstanding of what a proof of concept is.

I'm sorry I didn't jump on this the moment you said:

Bad beta designs are not proof of anything.

Because by definition, the beta stage is after the proof of concept stage. Proof of concept is early alpha.

Secondly: An Echo is a clone, am I missing something here? Furthermore, and this is where it becomes subjective, you are MASSIVELY overselling it being poor. Like, massively. You're looking at a model being put on something else's rigging and saying it looks stiff, and looking at an animation-less and saying it looks expressionless. Even clones aren't going to be literal skins (thus why they're clones not skins). If Isabelle could outright copy every animation then you're asking her to be a skin. She'd be Alph or the Koopalings, not an Echo. Arguing that these tweaks invalidate the purpose as an easy option is severely understimating what work goes into a brand new fighter, and also there isn't a flat equation for all characters for how much work is going to be worthwhile. If a character is more popular but not unique enough or too difficult to be made unique then an Echo is still less work than the alternative and also easily still worth the effort given their popularity.

And on this note: when asking if this is a conducive way to conduct discussion I'd like to turn the tables on you. Your ideologies of 'official proof' is entirely stifling of discussion. If we wait here for Nintendo announcements before discussing possibilities then there's nothing to discuss right now. Taking a black and white view of what should be a subjective topic (you're arguing things either can or can't be echos and there's no stretching the definition) is also stifling of discussion, and that's something you've been very stubborn on. Refusing to leave things up to interpretation and insisting that there is only one way to see it is basically just shutting down other peoples attempts to talk about ideas.

 

[IsmaR]

The character doesn't even flow right, honestly. She looks really off and unprofessional. She doesn't have the right face either. So it's neither proof of an actual official Echo or even good quality work.

She has a happy face. Her entire face is completely pasted with no real emotion shown. She looks extremely stiff with her legs. Honestly? This is even further proof it doesn't work. Because she has the wrong type of body to directly use the animations. She needs tweaks to work. Much bigger tweaks to look remotely right.

I believe the point they are trying to make is even as a work in progress, it conveys the idea that it is not impossible, and even goes as far as looks good for amateur work (subjective obviously).

As for the happy expression:

Spoiler

The video only shows why she would look more accurate as a clone, not an Echo. Her proportions are still off as well. Alt costumes actually look right. She just looks like a bad mod. So I'm calling bull on this being a legitimate example when she looks entirely wrong design-wise. Now if they improved the mod so she isn't just a costume and tweak her animations, cool. But right now it's just a mod(which they do deserve credit for making it "work", but not work well). This looks honestly as good as the various Ridley mods I've seen, same with Steve? over Toon Link. That is, not really all that well. It's cool, but does not look like a proper Echo either. Echoes, all of them, actually look like they move correctly. She doesn't. And that's why Echoes use 1:1 proportions(which she honestly looks actually pretty off like the stretched the model a little to make it work without accounting for even bothering to make her look remotely accurate), because they actually look proper when used as an alt costume. I've seen a lot of mods beyond this, including a Shadow mod that used Sonic as a base, but did things like the ability to summon the Shooting items in Brawl. Want to know something? He looked way better than this because they correctly made his animations work and didn't try to basic force the model into the moveset. It's the only reason it worked, because they did it right. This... is honestly a very underwhelming mod that shows how bad her proportions are.

Maybe if they do more work on this, she could look like a good character, but right now this looks terrible. The thing about 1:1 proportions is that when using moves, they don't like stiff. They actually look right. This does not look right. I'd like to see them actually finish the mod at some point, because it looks fun to use, but actually make it so Isabelle is done correctly. That means a happy-go-lucky face. I wonder if this is in the early development stages, which would explain why it's pretty bad.

Yes, it's unpolished and looks honestly like a terrible alt. Echoes don't. In fact, we are shown good alts by that point. This only shows of why it currently isn't working because it's just that bad. When a finished mod comes out that doesn't look like utter **** comes out? Sure, post that and you'll have some real proof. Bad beta designs are not proof of anything.

Again, all subjective. The Ridley mods range from the obvious terrible Charizard-model swaps to ones that actually had a ton of effort put into them (and are on-going), yet both historically have been equally labeled as bad, and even gone as far as being called "proof" that he would never work (even after his confirmation). Obviously Sakurai disagreed with the latter.

There's no right or wrong stance, the simple argument being made is that if they put their mind to it, as with all echo fighters, they COULD do it and it wouldn't be questioned like it is being right now. Anything that's official will obviously have quality that blows everything else out of the water. No one is inferring to know what will happen, only their opinion on what should/would/could.

That said, I forget about that translation error. But that was from a Miiverse post to begin with. Not from two employees talking without somebody being translated to our knowledge. There's kind of nothing untranslated we know of to take from, which means there's not really a good reason to believe Bill is misunderstanding something.

But then again... maybe it didn't mean anything and he was using a legit poor analogy. Who knows. But why should we honestly believe Bill is incorrect? You can't really cite it as a translation error at this point. It was a separate statement with two employees that didn't have Sakurai there or an actual literal translator.

Bill is human/misunderstands things just the same as any other translator. I've posted on one such instance in the general speculation thread:

For the record, it's Bill saying he read online regarding the "reactions"

Which I assume include the same posts that misinterpreted the whole thing (it got popularized from someone discussing it in the Smashboards specific Ridley Discord, which in and of itself was "I heard from another Discord" and then the whole thing wound up blowing up once said someone ended up posting it to social media).

The original statement might be true, it might be fake. But I doubt Bill of all people would be the one to know for sure.

Above is a clip of said interview, which also contains the infamous "Xenoblade character(s)" line that people were running wild with just a little over a week ago.



(Keep saying this and over, but) We don't know for sure, but taking the word of anyone except Sakurai himself as the definitive last say pertaining to just about anything is setting yourself up for future errors/"Sakurai didn't say that" moments.



Regardless, I fail to see how any "evidence" of anything can exist. Everything right now is just us waiting to see more, and giving our best estimates of what is/is not possible (game developer history aside, none of us are making this specific game as far as we know). I'm neither counting on things such as ____ "is only likely as an echo/semiclone" nor denying that someone that could be more unique is exempt from such fate, I'm simply posting this to remind people that this is a different game with a different development cycle. There's a lot we don't know, or at least can't confirm right now.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Do you really compare Geno to King K. rool???

Yes, I do. They're both characters from first-party franchises who have since fallen into obscurity with the casual crowd due to not seeing any action in decades, and are also some of the most highly requested characters in Smash history and remain highly requested to this day despite their obscurity. Doesn't sound that farfetched to me. Sure, one of them was in more games than the other, but that's basically irrelevant with the current crowd since he got dropped from his own series over ten years ago.
There are differences, obviously, but it's not as crazy a comparison as you think. Both characters are in very similar situations as it relates to Smash, and it's likely that if someone knows one, they'll know the other.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'll keep it simple;

I do not believe Isabelle can be an Echo. Seeing a mod that makes her look like she doesn't work at the time is not convincing. Especially a mod that is clearly pretty far into it because Isabelle, despite looking poor, doesn't have actual animation issues. Her hair isn't flying anyway. Her leg isn't breaking animation, etc. It's a product very far into it. It's a beta at that point. But regardless, "proof of concept" is before the alpha design right? That's clearly alpha or beta(likely beta). By your legitimate definition, it's beyond the proof of concept stage. Unless I misread something(do correct me), I'm not sure how your argument makes sense anymore. You want to say somebody can see that and think they can make it work? Agreed. Doesn't mean I think that shows her working well enough to be thought she'd work as an Echo. That's the part I don't agree with. I think something can be done with it.

As for some other points, I never thought Isabelle can't entirely be an Echo, I was just going with the official statement as fact and thinking that's why she can't. I however already explained that I and Bill could be wrong. Meaning in the long run, I was never directly saying she "can't be an echo", just that "I don't believe it'll happen due to this evidence." Beyond that, I always thought Ridley could work, just not with those bad mods as examples. I already talked about those at times and basically said that the mods don't do him justice because they fail to see the point. Things like his tail, his proportions, etc. need more than a mod. Ridley in Smash itself works because the tail isn't too long when used, but more importantly, he got a new model. So while I was right away(not that it matters), I was overall saying his model won't work. This is why he got a new model, because Sakurai needed one to make him work right in Smash.

I think I covered the actual important points now. But I will say that as a very creative person, I don't appreciate being told I lack an imagination. I am stubborn, yes. I'll admit that. That's a flaw I have. But you don't need to deflame my character to make a point. It doesn't do anything at all. Likewise, acting like I have a logic I never said is worthless and just makes it sound like you're trying to poke a hole in my argument by making stuff up(which is a strawman). I don't really believe in stuff if it doesn't exist, or that it will happen. But the fact I already said I could be wrong should ultimately be enough to show I am not saying there's no way Echoes have to absolutely have 1:1 proportions. I am saying I believe that and the evidence currently does not go against this.

As for Bill? We don't have a good reason to believe he is wrong on Echo Fighters. His Xenoblade comment is very easy to make a mistake. He was also talking strictly about Smash 4 playable characters, meaning he clearly was talking about Shulk and couldn't think of his name, but also just means characters among it. Meaning there was enough context to see where the issue came from. His statements on Echoes do not imply a bad translation(as Sakurai is not there and nobody was translating anything from what we can see), just like why it isn't a good comparison to the whole All-Star thing. Bill's statement on Echo Fighters were very straight forward with at best an odd example with the Megavitamins. Obviously he could be wrong. Anybody saying he can't be is being too stubborn. However, he might not be and being we lack zero information on Echo Fighters, taking him at face value is absolutely fair. There is nothing wrong with it. Lastly, we can actually say that Echo Fighters have been Alt Costumes first as it has remained true. Does that mean it will always be the case? Of course not. But we only have evidence of it so far being the case. It's pretty fair to think this has a good chance of staying the case, at least till we see otherwise(and to be honest, I think we will. Though I can't think of a good example beyond Shadow at this time. Dark Samus was pretty much a variant alt beforehand, though not beyond exact, but I think her AT is 1:1 proportions too? Can anyone confirm that?)

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

General point to make; Isabelle has different proportions from Villager. She cannot be an Echo due to having a different model/skeleton. She can be a clone at best. Or semi-clone. Or entirely unique. For the same reason she could never be an alt of Villager either(not that she would be one anyway).

So any leak calling her an Echo doesn't understand how they work. You can immediately discard that part for being wrong. Her being in in general shouldn't be discarded, obviously, same with her still being an AT. Both are absolutely possible anyway.

Except for the part where you literally started the argument by calling the idea itself 'wrong.' You made it very clear you find it impossible.

Regardless, it's obvious there's a strong difference in reasoning between all involved parties. I strongly believe her popular is enough to warrant her, but that Animal Crossing is already so thoroughly represented by Villager and that the newcomers are allegedly so tight for this game that she could only make it in as an echo, which as proven by the mods is by no means a stretch of the imagination.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except for the part where you literally started the argument by calling the idea itself 'wrong.' You made it very clear you find it impossible.

Regardless, it's obvious there's a strong difference in reasoning between all involved parties. I strongly believe her popular is enough to warrant her, but that Animal Crossing is already so thoroughly represented by Villager and that the newcomers are allegedly so tight for this game that she could only make it in as an echo, which as proven by the mods is by no means a stretch of the imagination.

Except the part where I admitted that was not really a good stance to take.

Which was changed. That I don't believe it will happen, but can.

Remember to read all parts of the debate. People change their minds during it. I also made it clear the issue with my original post and why it was poor(though I didn't reference that post, you can tell my old post is not the same stance I now have). It's why my overall stance changed to unlikely at that point.

You also have to remember that when I said on a previous day no less I was going with "Bill is 100% correct at first no matter what" and I eventually changed my mind to "Bill is probably correct". Again, ignoring context and later posts gives a bad impression. The original post you quoted I agree was a bad stance to take and that's why I am no longer taking it. I took a new one because of the arguments presented as is. So you could say I changed my mind a bit and was convinced, just not exactly what you wanted me to be convinced of. But yes, let's just remember people change their stances and not use old ones as somehow proof of what they currently mean. That'd be unfair to make an argument towards an old outdated one, you know?

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

I'll keep it simple;

I never thought Isabelle can't entirely be an Echo, I was just going with the official statement as fact and thinking that's why she can't.

I did, in fact, read your whole post. But don't act like changing your stance later doesn't mean you never tried to issue an ultimatum about a character without the full knowledge to do so, or that you can act like you never felt that way. I'm not making an argument towards your old opinion, I'm highlighting that you're acting like you were never as scathing as you previously were. Don't write it off as me 'ignoring posts and context.'

Moving on to a different topic, an absolute pipe dream for me would be Captain N making it into the game. It's an absolute minimal nonzero chance, but he's the only tv show character I'd be cool with making it into the game, and he'd be the perfect way to cap it off if we really got Pit, Mega Man, and Simon Belmont in the same game.

 

[DNeon]

By your legitimate definition, it's beyond the proof of concept stage. Unless I misread something(do correct me), I'm not sure how your argument makes sense anymore.

The mod is beyond it's own proof of concept stage, using limitted resources and making it work within a game she's not designed to be part of. THAT is the proof of concept that she could be designed as an Echo fighter without similar limitations and when she's able to be implemented as more than a than a custom skin of Villager.

You want to say somebody can see that and think they can make it work? Agreed.

That means it's a successful proof of concept, yes? Somebody can see that video and say "I can make Isabelle work as an Echo of Villager, that video proved that with some effort the concept will work." So what's the difference between that person and Nintendo? Is this now an argument on whether it's too much effort for them to consider implementing her as an Echo? Becuase it's still less effort than a full fighter, which means it's still saving time and resources.

Likewise, acting like I have a logic I never said is worthless and just makes it sound like you're trying to poke a hole in my argument by making stuff up(which is a strawman).

I literally explained how your misuse around the term 'proof of concept' lead to that interpretation of your logic. If you're saying you need a finished product to prove the concept:

When a finished mod comes out that doesn't look like utter **** comes out? Sure, post that and you'll have some real proof. Bad beta designs are not proof of anything.

Then you're saying that in order to be a successful proof of concept (i.e. a viable option to put time and effort into), you need it to be a finished product. In other words, in order to believe something can work (i.e. it has had a successful proof of concept), you need it to be finished. In other words:

nothing [can] ever work [...] until it's in a game and ready to be shipped

I genuinely did not strawman you there. There has been misunderstanding between us about what was said and the use of certain terms. That was my genuine understanding of what you were saying mate.

And lastly, if you don't want to be called unimaginative (such that it seems you believe imagination to be a part of your identity, a trait I think is admirable of people) then I highly suggest that you don't take hardline stances on the im(or I guess now just very low)possibility of things happening per some definitions of Echo Fighters. 'Literal','faithful' and 'down to earth' are antonyms of 'imaginative' and I'd say that those are pretty good descriptions of how you've treated your definition of Echo Fighters, especially in regards to Isabelle.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Please remember to keep it civil. Potshots at other users just isn't cool. General civil debate is fine but it seems to me that no one is going to change anyone else's mind and as such this argument has become a cycle. Let's just move on to something else please.

 

[Jetsurge]

I believe Sakurai is trying to please as many fans as possible with this game, and I think the characters will reflect this. So basically, this prediction is trying to please as many Smash fans as possible while also being realistic.

Simon Belmont - Vergeben

Banjo- - 20th anniversary this year, is an iconic character from Nintendo’s past and could reintroduce him to the modern era like Mega Man’s inclusion into Smash 4 did

King K. Rool - We could always use more villains and heavyweights. He is also a very prominent character in Donkey Kong Country with a funny personality.

Geno - Sakurai has wanted to include him in both Brawl and Smash 4 and he is still heavily requested, inevitable at this point.

Isaac - We have yet to see his assist trophy and he would provide a unique playstyle and would represent an older Nintendo franchise (Golden Sun)

Chibi-Robo - He actually had a huge spike in votes the last few days of the ballot when Nintendo stated that Zip-Lash would determine the future of the Chibi-Robo franchise. And, just like Isaac, would provide for a unique playstyle and represent an older Nintendo franchise (Chibi-Robo)

Echo Fighters -

Dixie Kong - People still want Dixie Kong, but K. Rool is undisputedly the most requested character, so she could become an echo of Diddy because of their similar figure. But her up special could be remeniscient of Donkey Kong’s up special to make her more of a unique echo fighter.

Impa - She has been in more LOZ games than Sheik, but at this point she might need to become an echo fighter of her in order to make it in. She is the only other recurring character yet to make it into Smash.

Bandana Dee - Popular character request? Yes. Does everyone think he is worthy? No. Therefore, making him an echo fighter of Kirby is the best possible compromise. I have no idea what his neutral special could be though

Isabelle - Vergeben and basically the face of Animal Crossing at this point. And we could always use more female characters.

THESE NEXT 3 MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS IN FAVOR OF THESE CHARACTERS, BUT MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED IF THEY WERE LEFT OUT THAN IF THEY WERE INCLUDED

Dark Samus - Metroid is a very popular Nintendo franchise, and this would be the best way to promote Metroid Prime 4 with the smallest amount of effort possible.

Shadow - Don’t need to explain this one

Octoling - Splatoon is still very popular and Octolings are as well, so why not have a 2nd Splatoon Rep?

Barely Missed Out (Possible Assist Trophies) -
Wonder Red
Paper Mario
Captain Toad
Chorus Kids
Professor Layton

Potential DLC -
Gen 7 Pokemon Rep (Decidueye, Mimikyu or Lycanroc)
Rex and Pyra
Springman (Alternate Costumes are other characters like Bowser Jr. and Inkling)
Character Costumes

Feel free to tell me how wrong I am!

Why would Gen 7 Pokemon be DLC? They would be in the base game. If there was a Pokemon as dlc it would be something from gen 8 since gen 7 is on the way out.

Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno as far back as Brawl, but obviously hasn't either due to complications from Square or realizing he's too niche. I do think he has a good shot this time, but I feel K. Rool is just more widespread. The DKC trilogy alone sold more than most Nintendo games.

I think King K. Rool is more likely than Geno. He is the main villain of DK not a side character, the DKC trilogy has sold a lot more than Mario RPG and with K. Rool they don't have to deal with a third party.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why would Gen 7 Pokemon be DLC? They would be in the base game. If there was a Pokemon as dlc it would be something from gen 8 since gen 7 is on the way out.

Exactly. This is the only time they'd get in. I guess Zeraora maybe? But I doubt it.

I think King K. Rool is more likely than Geno. He is the main villain of DK not a side character, the DKC trilogy has sold a lot more than Mario RPG and with K. Rool they don't have to deal with a third party.

Remember that we don't know if K. Rool is someone Sakurai wants playable. He wants Geno playable.

He already dealt with Square-Enix to get a costume and Cloud. He dealt with them again to get Cloud again. Why wouldn't he try to get Geno playable right away?

K. Rool's chances aren't really comparable because we know nothing of his chances. He's awesome, yes, but he's also an unused character whose last relevant appearance was a Mii Costume. This doesn't do much for him. Sakurai might want him playable, and maybe the ballot was enough. But there's nothing very clear about his chances due to no statements about him. I can totally see him playable. I can also see him still a Mii Costume only. Or even an Assist Trophy. Or two of those three. But that's because there's a lack of clear interest by Sakurai. He's very very popular, but a lot of playable characters also happen to have something going for them. There's many who don't even know about him either.

Geno is possibly more known too. It's hard to say. But one thing to note is both characters aren't very well-known. If it was up to picking a character between the two(already under the assumption neither were already wanted by Sakurai), I agree K. Rool should absolutely make more sense due to having a more important game status. But this isn't the case anymore(that is, Geno is already chosen as someone who he wants to make playable. This does not mean he will become it). K. Rool, on the other hand... we don't know. Obviously the chances do look better for Geno due to Square-Enix already being around from the start, and the closest thing to actual competition, Cloud, is in. But observations can be wrong, heh. Remember when Dixie was a shoo-in for Smash 4? Yeah.

I think both have a really good chance, I'd just put Geno a bit higher due to Sakurai's statements and the fact Square-Enix already has been licensed for content beforehand. Whether or not this means a playable Geno we'll find out within the year.

 

[AquaSol]

Simon Belmont
King K. Rool
Dixie Kong
Elma
Mimikyu
Bandana Dee
Dark Samus
Chorus Kids
Isabelle
Rayman
Geno

Those are all the characters that I personally see as realistic. The two non-Vergeben characters that I think are easy locks are King K. Rool and the Chorus Kids.

 

[Marcello691]

Yes. They're both characters from first-party franchises who have since fallen into obscurity with the casual crowd due to not seeing any action in decades, and are also some of the most highly requested characters in Smash history and remain highly requested to this day despite their obscurity. Doesn't sound that farfetched to me. Sure, one of them was in more games than the other, but that's basically irrelevant with the current crowd since he got dropped from his own series over ten years ago.
There are differences, obviously, but it's not as crazy a comparison as you think. Both characters are in very similar situations as it relates to Smash, and it's likely that if someone knows one, they'll know the other.

Ok I think geno looks really cool and he would be really interesting as playable character in smash but as a nintendo fan who plays almost everything Nintendo related since the snes era I have to say that I first heard of geno when I visited this site by accident when I was looking for information about Dixie in smash wii u. I played every single smash game sooooooo many hours and I now a lot about the nintendo universe but Geno was something new to me.
What I want to say is that even if k.rool was "abandoned" 10 years ago like you said, he is still much mooooore recognized by people than geno. He was the main antagonist of the dk series in the snes and n64 era, the dk games were very popular back then and the sales were huge, and many many Nintendo supporters are in my age and played the dkc series or dk64, they do remember all the characters created by rare. Even my sister who is a bit older than me and not a gamer remembers the kremlin crew and even kiddy kong. I don't see how Geno and k.rool are on the same "pedestal". Geno appeared in only one game that wasn't even released in europe and he is a creation of square enix. Sales were not that bad but came almost only from japan. King K. Rool's return to the dk series is a given because of how popular he is, even Nintendo acknowledged this by adding a k.rool street sign in new donk city in mario Odyssey.
Don't know if we will see Geno again though.
The thing is that Sakurai wanted to add Geno before but he didn't, probably because characters have to somehow deserve their place in smash and he doesn't add characters that appeared in one game only, that's the reason we didn't get girahim or midna from zelda series.
I don't mind Geno being added to smash, but please don't act like geno and k.rool are on the same level ;-)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

For what it's worth, a Smash leaker with credibility implied K. Rool may possibly be a playable character.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Simon Belmont
King K. Rool
Dixie Kong
Elma
Mimikyu
Bandana Dee
Dark Samus
Chorus Kids
Isabelle
Rayman
Geno

Those are all the characters that I personally see as realistic. The two non-Vergeben characters that I think are easy locks are King K. Rool and the Chorus Kids.

Good prediction with no oddballs/bias! The only two I’m hesitant on are Elma and Chorus Kids. The Chorus Kids has evidence found of having work done on them for Smash 4. The only issue I see is if they were dropped because Sakurai didn’t like the idea of them. As for Elma, I feel like that would be a weird choice because she’s not the main character. It would be like adding Pyra and only Pyra from XC2. I could be wrong though

For what it's worth, a Smash leaker with credibility implied K. Rool may possibly be a playable character.

But everyone “leaks” King K. Rool

 

[DNeon]

As for Elma, I feel like that would be a weird choice because she’s not the main character.

She's not the player character, but she is the main character of the story.

EDIT: Also edit your posts or use multiquote dude, mods already asked you on this very page.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

She's not the player character, but she is the main character of the story.

EDIT: Also edit your posts or use multiquote dude, mods already asked you on this very page.

Yeah that’s what i meant. My bad. Also ok, sorry

 

[True Blue Warrior]

But everyone “leaks” King K. Rool

But none of those "leakers" have anything credible to their name, unlike loz18, who leaked everyone coming back and Ganondorf using his sword.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

But none of those "leakers" have anything credible to their name, unlike loz18, who leaked everyone coming back and Ganondorf using his sword.

Oh I’m familiar with loz18, do you have a link to this one in particular?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Oh I’m familiar with loz18, do you have a link to this one in particular?

Here you go.

No word on Dixie, but there's strong indications that the "theme" of the game is Heroes vs. Villains which may hint at K. Rool as a newcomer but that is not confirmed. That's just something that's floating around. Nintendo has been more strict and secretive than usual lately.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Funny thing is Ultimate is the only Smash game to have an actual theme to it. It's "Everyone is here". Heroes VS Villains wouldn't really make much sense as no other Smash game has a theme anyway. I wouldn't put any stock into that alone.

K. Rool could still be playable, though. But he might have information we lack, so the idea of it having two themes isn't impossible. I just feel it's unlikely that would be why K. Rool is chosen in itself. He has better reasons than a theme that really has never fit what Smash already does. Villains are rarely chosen. In fact, Bowser and Bowser Jr. are the only specific villains chosen because they already are villains. Ganondorf was chosen just due to a lucky factor with his Tech Demo model and all.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Here you go.

Funny thing is Ultimate is the only Smash game to have an actual theme to it. It's "Everyone is here". Heroes VS Villains wouldn't really make much sense as no other Smash game has a theme anyway. I wouldn't put any stock into that alone.

K. Rool could still be playable, though. But he might have information we lack, so the idea of it having two themes isn't impossible. I just feel it's unlikely that would be why K. Rool is chosen in itself. He has better reasons than a theme that really has never fit what Smash already does. Villains are rarely chosen. In fact, Bowser and Bowser Jr. are the only specific villains chosen because they already are villains. Ganondorf was chosen just due to a lucky factor with his Tech Demo model and all.

Do Wario and Ridley not count as villains? Ganondorf would have definitely been added in Brawl if he didn’t make it to Melee

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Do Wario and Ridley not count as villains? Ganondorf would have definitely been added in Brawl if he didn’t make it to Melee

Ridley too. Wario is not a villain but an Anti-Hero.

I did forget Ridley, yeah. Though I was clearly thinking of Smash 4 at the time. Bowser Jr. was a notable villain Sakurai wanted, but the thing that set him apart wasn't him being a villain, but the Koopa Clown Car making him fun and interesting. He was almost cut too. It's also the reason he was given the Koopalings alt, because the moveset is the vehicle, not the user.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Ridley too. Wario is not a villain but an Anti-Hero.

I did forget Ridley, yeah. Though I was clearly thinking of Smash 4 at the time. Bowser Jr. was a notable villain Sakurai wanted, but the thing that set him apart wasn't him being a villain, but the Koopa Clown Car making him fun and interesting. He was almost cut too. It's also the reason he was given the Koopalings alt, because the moveset is the vehicle, not the user.

I feel like people weren’t too happy with Bowser Jr because of that. You don’t get to play as Bowser Jr, you get to play as a koopa clown car. You could swap out the driver for literally any character and the moveset wouldn’t change.

 

[Arcanir]

Jumping in to say that he implies it has something to do with a story mode of some sort:

As of today, I don’t know anything new besides what I already said about newcomer(s) revealed and that there is some kind of progression or story of some sort like I mentioned with the Heroes vs. Villains theme.

In that sense it could work since even with the limited number of villain/antagonist options (Bowser, Bowser Jr. Ganondorf, Ridley, Wolf, Wario, maybe Mewtwo + the possible options like Dark Samus and King K. Rool) you don't need large roster for something like that, just play around with those characters and add a couple easy bosses and you're set.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel like people weren’t too happy with Bowser Jr because of that. You don’t get to play as Bowser Jr, you get to play as a koopa clown car. You could swap out the driver for literally any character and the moveset wouldn’t change.

I don't blame them. We don't have alt colors for Jr. too. Well, not literally any character, they need to be similar in design to Bowser Jr. that they can be turned into an alt costume. On the other hand, the moveset concept could be used as a base for legit Eggman semi-clone(that would either be somewhat akin to Wolf who is really different, Ness who is hyper different but based upon Mario as a base, or like Jigglypuff, who has a ton of similarities, but still has a very different playstyle).

Jumping in to say that he implies it has something to do with a story mode of some sort:

In that sense it could work since even with the limited number of villain/antagonist options (Bowser, Bowser Jr. Ganondorf, Ridley, Wolf, Wario, maybe Mewtwo + the possible options like Dark Samus and King K. Rool) you don't need large roster for something like that, just play around with those characters and add a couple easy bosses and you're set.

The issue is that now that Sakurai won't make an SSE, a story mode like that sounds fairly unlikely. An Adventure Mode like Melee sounds more realistic. Unless they do dialogue instead akin to say, Fire Emblem, I kind of doubt this. Could easily be wrong though(on another note, Dialogue sounds unrealistic cause a lot of characters don't really talk. This is why the SSE having no dialogue, despite it hurting the story at times, worked overall. It never forced OOC reactions to any large degree).

 

[Arcanir]

The issue is that now that Sakurai won't make an SSE, a story mode like that sounds fairly unlikely. An Adventure Mode like Melee sounds more realistic. Unless they do dialogue instead akin to say, Fire Emblem, I kind of doubt this. Could easily be wrong though(on another note, Dialogue sounds unrealistic cause a lot of characters don't really talk. This is why the SSE having no dialogue, despite it hurting the story at times, worked overall. It never forced OOC reactions to any large degree).

I'm skeptical of a story mode myself, but note that outside of a few sparse details we don't know what the mode will be like. He doesn't say if there will be dialogue, how long it will be, or even if it'll have the lengthy depth of the SSE. The only thing he mentioned about it is is that there's a theme and there may be cutscenes (and as SSE proves, dialogue is not required for the latter), the rest is completely up to speculation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm skeptical of a story mode myself, but note that outside of a few sparse details we don't know what the mode will be like. He doesn't say if there will be dialogue, how long it will be, or even if it'll have the lengthy depth of the SSE. The only thing he mentioned about it is is that there's a theme and there may be cutscenes (and as SSE proves, dialogue is not required for the latter), the rest is completely up to speculation.

That's fair. I would like one again. I was under the impression the user was more clear. It sounds like Adventure Mode that could have certain planned fights, like at the end or something. Like if Mario is used, he'll have to fight DK, Bowser, and Bowser Jr. in specific matches.

Though it's the cutscenes that made SSE the most popular. Look at all the AMV's, heh.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Ok I think geno looks really cool and he would be really interesting as playable character in smash but as a nintendo fan who plays almost everything Nintendo related since the snes era I have to say that I first heard of geno when I visited this site by accident when I was looking for information about Dixie in smash wii u. I played every single smash game sooooooo many hours and I now a lot about the nintendo universe but Geno was something new to me.
What I want to say is that even if k.rool was "abandoned" 10 years ago like you said, he is still much mooooore recognized by people than geno. He was the main antagonist of the dk series in the snes and n64 era, the dk games were very popular back then and the sales were huge, and many many Nintendo supporters are in my age and played the dkc series or dk64, they do remember all the characters created by rare. Even my sister who is a bit older than me and not a gamer remembers the kremlin crew and even kiddy kong. I don't see how Geno and k.rool are on the same "pedestal". Geno appeared in only one game that wasn't even released in europe and he is a creation of square enix. Sales were not that bad but came almost only from japan. King K. Rool's return to the dk series is a given because of how popular he is, even Nintendo acknowledged this by adding a k.rool street sign in new donk city in mario Odyssey.
Don't know if we will see Geno again though.
The thing is that Sakurai wanted to add Geno before but he didn't, probably because characters have to somehow deserve their place in smash and he doesn't add characters that appeared in one game only, that's the reason we didn't get girahim or midna from zelda series.
I don't mind Geno being added to smash, but please don't act like geno and k.rool are on the same level ;-)

They kind of are, though, at least in the context of Smash. Just because one of them arguably wasn't obscure once doesn't mean they aren't both relatively obscure characters now. I'm not gonna deny that more people know K. Rool than know Geno, but their popularity is still comparable since it's mostly among the hardcore/nostalgia crowd, and those guys are liable to recognize both. I also don't see how K. Rool's return to the series is "a given" considering they've had at least two chances now to bring K. Rool back into the fold with Returns and Tropical Freeze, the latter of which in particular could have easily featured the Kremlings as the main villain instead of Walrusguy or whoever we got. If he makes a comeback in Smash, which is a very real possibility, then that would change things for him, but as it stands, nothing's really changed for him and it seems Nintendo has no intentions to use the character, which is a real shame.
And no, Geno probably didn't miss the boat because Sakurai just decided against adding him for not "deserving" a spot. In Brawl, Square Enix wasn't in on the Smash deal at all, so he couldn't have added him, and in Smash 4, they only got in at the tailend of the DLC season, and thus, they wouldn't have had time to create two entirely unique Square Enix fighters, hence the Mii Costume. It most likely wasn't a lack of interest keeping him out, considering Sakurai didn't give us a reason for him not making the cut like he literally always does when he mentions considered fighters - if anything, his ambiguous wording seems to indicate that licensing issues are what kept him out in the long run. Sorry, but it bothers me a lot when people say this and it's a misconception I'm trying to fight every day.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Here you go.

If I had a dollar for every time somebody ‘leaked’ Heroes vs. Villains I could buy a car.

 

[AEMehr]

It's not wrong, though. At all. Daisy being introduced as the latest Echo Fighter is doing nothing but a PR statement. It doesn't change anything we know of development. There is literally no reason to think so.

If you literally choose to not think as a game designer how game development works, no there is no reason to think they are handling clones differently.

But if you actually consider and think about why Echo Fighters are thing, it makes WAY more sense to plan clones as a "feature" from the get go so you can add new characters to a game where your resources are primarily going towards adding old fighters. We don't know this, but if you THINK about it, it makes more sense this way.

There is nothing to suggest Daisy wasn't last minute either. Lucina was shown off to introduce that clones were back essentially in 4. In fact, she was used as a perfect example of why "clones" get their own slots no matter how little the difference is. That's how she was used as a PR statement overall. Nobody knew how she worked till Sakurai explained further. He himself did not elaborate on Daisy.

That said, I forget about that translation error. But that was from a Miiverse post to begin with. Not from two employees talking without somebody being translated to our knowledge. There's kind of nothing untranslated we know of to take from, which means there's not really a good reason to believe Bill is misunderstanding something.

Lucina was a costume first and foremost, her presence in the trailer was because she was already planned to appear in the game, just in a different light. Even then, Lucina was introduced as a clone fighter first and foremost. There was nothing special specifically about her character being explained, it was literally just "yeah shes a clone".
The whole CONCEPT of clones were reintroduced. I don't understand why you cannot comprehend why this is such a big difference from previous situations.

No offense to Bill, but he's mostly just a player like everyone else. He doesn't help make the game, he plays it and (likely) translates for it. But that doesn't mean he knows why and how everything works in it. Just because have an absurd amount of hours playing Mii Gunner doesn't mean I know the reason why Sakurai designed her this way or that way, Bill may have the ability to ask these questions to Sakurai, but he is not a game developer for Smash Bros.

There is nothing to suggest this is really a big difference. We already knew they can have some unique animations due to the taunts being different. Daisy showed little to begin with of note, that, gasp, only their moveset has to be almost entirely the same with tiny tweaks. We already knew that. Daisy was also not actually directly explained about that from the getgo. Bill noted that. He's the only reason we even knew they could have other animations. We were never led to believe that the animations for things other than the moveset had to be exactly the same so this is hardly meaningful to begin with.

What? Have you not even played Smash for 3DS and Wii U???? Where the heck is this interview with him? Because if anything it's probably just him restating what already has been stated. And, again, Daisy has a unique IDLE POSE, which is something ALL of her attacks need to transition FROM and INTO. This requires A LOT more work than for Dark Pit and Lucina did in Smash for 3DS and Wii U AND Ultimate (as they still share the same idle pose and animations for Pit and Marth from 3DS and Wii U).
The idle pose is similar to Peach sure, but they need to make sure the transition frames to and from her idle pose works with each animation she does for everything. The pose needs to transition into an attack stance, and all of them need new follow through poses after the attacks are complete to return to her unique Idle Pose. Sakurai held a GDC panel in 2008 for Brawl's development which perfect explains this process. This requires a lot more work than it did for Dark Pit and Lucina, because now every animation needs to be tweaked to match this new pose for Daisy.

Spoiler

I'm taking a moment to tackle your opinion of Isabelle as a echo fighter, which is again flawed. Because you refuse to think about clones as anything but afterthoughts, because of the previous titles.
I'd like to reiterate that there is absolutely no reason to think that they wouldn't try to plan clones for a game where their focus isn't adding new characters, but bringing back old characters. They know people still want new characters, and the easiest way to add new characters is to add low effort clones. There will still be brand new character concepts, as the Inkling and Ridley show. But in order to beef up the roster size and make players happy, they can still add Clones to make certain people happy.
There's no reason to think Isabelle doesn't fit in as a Villager clone. All characters in Animal Crossing can do the same thing, they're all capable of using the tools Villager fights with. Would Isabelle fit in is a fighter? Probably not. Does Villager fit in as a fighter? Not really. What matters most is that: do people love Isabelle and would love to play as her? Yes! That's what's more important, the inclusion of Ridley is a pretty obvious indicator of that.
And they can do whatever they want to make Isabelle fit the role because should have been planned from the start. Much like how Daisy likely was too, which allows for the time and effort to be put in so she can have animation tweaks.

That's ridiculous to even think it's a serious flaw to begin with. Until something proves it wrong outright, using the previous process is the only one to think of would likely be used. It doesn't mean it will, but there's no reason to believe otherwise than "Meh, he never repeats things." Except when he does. He has never once made a new clone outside of last-minute. Echoes are still clones. Why on earth should we believe this would change when it's a consistent 1:1 process. If not the most consistent one he's done every time. And in a twist, has so far been let known that every Echo are 1:1 animations for all their attack moves. Something that isn't proven wrong by Lucina and Dark Pit. It just means they don't have to have new animations. However, don't forget that the Final Smashes are strictly animation changes too, and were changed. We already knew that, along with taunts, means some animations don't have to be 1:1 to begin with. Daisy didn't show anything directly new. We basically knew it could happen, just didn't see it yet.

Just like we could get Echoes who aren't 1:1, but currently we have more evidence to suggest they won't happen. If somebody said Echoes would never get new Idle Animations, it would not be a bad argument as evidence is in their favor. Nobody is even discounting the idea that an Echo could be created off of a similar model. But it's unlikely due to the evidence we have. Daisy isn't exactly something that proves anything to begin with. You're forgetting that Ultimate has been working on for over 2 years. We don't know when Daisy was finished as an Echo. Or when she even started as one. We don't even know if she was an Alt first like the other two were in their debut. Could she be? Sure. Could she not be? Sure. But so far? There's not exactly any evidence to suggest she couldn't have been an Alt to begin with. She was already a type of costume to a degree since Melee. We already knew that. So it's quite possible she was an Alt already before being cloned off of Peach. Besides that, I never said this is indefinitely the case anyway. I said that we know so far that Echoes have been 1:1 to begin with, as we have an official statement.

Yeah, why should we think and consider things that are smarter for a game developer to do?

As for your example about AT's? This has nothing to do with Bill's statement. His PR statement was not some translation like that Miiverse post was. We don't know where he got the information. He don't know if it was a vague statement by Sakurai, as he wasn't there. Bill could totally be wrong. And that's fine. The thing is, his PR statement has nothing that explains the origins beyond his words meaning there's no real reason to believe it's a mistranslation. He even was using a proper analogy, as Megavitamins function differently from the Fireballs. People just didn't seem to feel they were nearly as different as they actually are. More importantly, Echoes have the same move functions with very very tiny tweaks outside of Final Smashes, which is kind of the main reason his analogy existed, as despite it seeming bad, he was using a fairly good example of how a function is kind of important to the difference between an Echo and Clone. But then again... maybe it didn't mean anything and he was using a legit poor analogy. Who knows. But why should we honestly believe Bill is incorrect? You can't really cite it as a translation error at this point. It was a separate statement with two employees that didn't have Sakurai there or an actual literal translator.

Bill is a translator. He doesn't develop the games. Everything he says is from his personal experience from what he has seen and played of it. Just because he says something doesn't mean he's correct.

Any Nintendo that's not Japan is translating information, and it is not without reason to believe that things can be very lost in translation, as the Assist Trophies in All-Star Mode shows.

The OFFICIAL NintendoVS Twitter just stated that Mii Fighters will have THREE SETS of SPECIAL MOVESETS, yet the FRANCE Nintendo Twitter stated that they will have THREE DIFFERENT SPECIALS for EACH SPECIAL MOVE.

 

[cybersai]

Is Chorus Kids still considered a realistic possibility? Were they really in development in Smash U? How far did they get?

If they were partially completed last time and dropped due to 3DS limitations, it does make sense for Sakurai to finish them rather than cut the concept entirely.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

Yes, I do. They're both characters from first-party franchises who have since fallen into obscurity with the casual crowd due to not seeing any action in decades, and are also some of the most highly requested characters in Smash history and remain highly requested to this day despite their obscurity. Doesn't sound that farfetched to me. Sure, one of them was in more games than the other, but that's basically irrelevant with the current crowd since he got dropped from his own series over ten years ago.
There are differences, obviously, but it's not as crazy a comparison as you think. Both characters are in very similar situations as it relates to Smash, and it's likely that if someone knows one, they'll know the other.

Geno is requested a lot here, but he isn't a popular character in the context of literally anything else and it's why he's such a terrible pick. People don't care about Geno, they only care about the idea of him being in Smash and having Mario RPG representation. So what if Sakurai said he wanted him playable since Brawl? This is meaningless. Stop pretending as if Geno is the only character he wants. He also wanted Takamaru and yet he's still an Assist Trophy character.
Geno fans are actually insane if they think their one-off character from a two-decade-old Mario spin-off that's co-owned by Square Enix is going to take any priority over characters from currently relevant IPs, new games that came out, or Nintendo classical IPs that helped build whatever system they came out on.
What's the attraction behind Geno really? What could he do that no other character could do? He doesn't even look anything unique if you prop him up against the rest of the roster.