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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Is Chorus Kids still considered a realistic possibility? Were they really in development in Smash U? How far did they get?

If they were partially completed last time and dropped due to 3DS limitations, it does make sense for Sakurai to finish them rather than cut the concept entirely.
They aren't unrealistic, but we don't know if they were the actual RH character Sakurai worked on. We only got one leaker to imply it's that one, and now that we know Chrom was given a lot of attention before Robin, it's pretty likely it was the case. Just not confirmed the case.

Geno is requested a lot here, but he isn't a popular character in the context of literally anything else and it's why he's such a terrible pick. People don't care about Geno, they only care about the idea of him being in Smash and having Mario RPG representation. So what if Sakurai said he wanted him playable since Brawl? This is meaningless. Stop pretending as if Geno is the only character he wants. He also wanted Takamaru and yet he's still an Assist Trophy character.
Geno fans are actually insane if they think their one-off character from a two-decade-old Mario spin-off that's co-owned by Square Enix is going to take any priority over characters from currently relevant IPs, new games that came out, or Nintendo classical IPs that helped build whatever system they came out on.
What's the attraction behind Geno really? What could he do that no other character could do? He doesn't even look anything unique if you prop him up against the rest of the roster.
You do know that Sakurai also said that he'll put Takamaru in when he gets a new game, right? That's an important note, because he never got one. Besides that, he could've just been lower priority to begin with. His "retro" choice could be someone else. He's not 3rd party, so we don't know why he's still an AT.

King K. Rool himself is not even relevant. His franchise is active, but he is not. Geno isn't either, but yes, the fact Sakurai wants him does matter. The reason Geno got a costume is that Sakurai tried to get him playable in 4 but that's the best he was able to do(Cloud being higher priority at that time makes sense, of course). K. Rool, frankly, is not in competition with Geno and never was. Geno is a severely popular character that Sakurai wants playable. He has been trying to do since Brawl. He has not said anything similar about K. Rool and at best the character's Mii costume is just a nod to the popularity of the ballot. Sakurai might not know of his far bigger popularity outside of it. Geno's popularity before the ballot is why Sakurai wants him playable to begin with. It's big. And what's with this "fans only care about this" stuff? Geno is popular because of his own merits, not "lol we need Super Mario RPG representation". Some might think that, of course, but his popularity came from his own, you know, personality and role. Besides being actually pretty cool within the game. Despite Mallow being more important to the story, he's the breakout character from it.

Lastly, K. Rool is not less relevant than Geno. If you want to talk about relevant DKC characters, look at Dixie Kong. K. Rool is long and forgotten, and while still obviously an awesome and popular character, is literally in the same boat as Geno, just with the creator only wanting one playable and has been trying to do so. When has Sakurai tried to make K. Rool playable, or care enough to do so? We don't know. In fact, he might have never tried. That means Geno was higher priority anyway. Higher priority isn't about finished product alone. If negotiations didn't fall through, he'd have been playable in Brawl. K. Rool? Who knows. He hasn't released any statements on the croc being possibly playable. 4? They both got Mii costumes, but Sakurai gave Geno a Mii costume because he was still trying to make him playable. He needed to license it first, of course, which means he gave priority to Geno too. We didn't even get a FFVII-related costume either, just a Chocobo Hat based upon a spin-off FF game that's not really related to 7, and Geno, from SMRPG. That means he went out of his way for that obscure character. Because he wanted him playable, and the costume was as close as he could get at that time. You're saying K. Rool somehow is in the same position here? Back this up, because there's seriously no reason to believe this is applicable to the croc. He's in a similar position to Geno, but also is on a lower scale right now due to any knowledge Sakurai is interested in him being playable. Until we know of that, Geno has a natural leg up.
 

Ze Diglett

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Geno is requested a lot here, but he isn't a popular character in the context of literally anything else and it's why he's such a terrible pick. People don't care about Geno, they only care about the idea of him being in Smash and having Mario RPG representation. So what if Sakurai said he wanted him playable since Brawl? This is meaningless. Stop pretending as if Geno is the only character he wants. He also wanted Takamaru and yet he's still an Assist Trophy character.
Geno fans are actually insane if they think their one-off character from a two-decade-old Mario spin-off that's co-owned by Square Enix is going to take any priority over characters from currently relevant IPs, new games that came out, or Nintendo classical IPs that helped build whatever system they came out on.
What's the attraction behind Geno really? What could he do that no other character could do? He doesn't even look anything unique if you prop him up against the rest of the roster.
Oh, God... so much wrong...
People don't care about Geno? Yeah, tell that to the entire Geno support thread. (Seriously, do it. It'll be funny.)
Sakurai wanting Geno in is significant because he hasn't given us a concrete reason as to why he isn't in yet unlike every other candidate he's considered and dropped, and the vague language he used ("I thought it would be great if I could add him, but in the end it didn’t become a reality.”) implies that licensing issues got in the way of his inclusion and if it were up to him, he would be in by now. And where did you get the idea that Sakurai wants Takamaru? That's not accurate at all; in reality, he was very briefly considered for Smash 4 before being dismissed due to his lack of popularity, particularly overseas. If you have a source to the contrary, however, I'd genuinely like to see it.
Considering Geno has basically everything going for him short of an official confirmation from Square Enix that they'd be okay with him being playable, which he doesn't really need considering the Mii Costume exists, I wouldn't exactly say calling his chances good is delusional, and to call his chances outright bad is indicative of some serious bias, plain misinformation, and/or just not looking at things objectively.
As for your other questions, again, I recommend taking a peek in the Geno support thread sometime. You might learn something about why we like him so much.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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Marcello691

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They kind of are, though, at least in the context of Smash. Just because one of them arguably wasn't obscure once doesn't mean they aren't both relatively obscure characters now. I'm not gonna deny that more people know K. Rool than know Geno, but their popularity is still comparable since it's mostly among the hardcore/nostalgia crowd, and those guys are liable to recognize both. I also don't see how K. Rool's return to the series is "a given" considering they've had at least two chances now to bring K. Rool back into the fold with Returns and Tropical Freeze, the latter of which in particular could have easily featured the Kremlings as the main villain instead of Walrusguy or whoever we got. If he makes a comeback in Smash, which is a very real possibility, then that would change things for him, but as it stands, nothing's really changed for him and it seems Nintendo has no intentions to use the character, which is a real shame.
And no, Geno probably didn't miss the boat because Sakurai just decided against adding him for not "deserving" a spot. In Brawl, Square Enix wasn't in on the Smash deal at all, so he couldn't have added him, and in Smash 4, they only got in at the tailend of the DLC season, and thus, they wouldn't have had time to create two entirely unique Square Enix fighters, hence the Mii Costume. It most likely wasn't a lack of interest keeping him out, considering Sakurai didn't give us a reason for him not making the cut like he literally always does when he mentions considered fighters - if anything, his ambiguous wording seems to indicate that licensing issues are what kept him out in the long run. Sorry, but it bothers me a lot when people say this and it's a misconception I'm trying to fight every day.
I don't think that licensing issues were a problem, Square enix didn't use that character all the years and it's really an honor for every character from every game or company to be in smash bros, so I don't know why square enix would make trouble.
You're very young, the time you started playing videogames the dk series had its low point because nintendo didn't know what to do with the series as rare was bought by Microsoft. That's the reason you might think that k.rool and geno are on the same boat. Most of the time it's good that Nintendo does not listen to fans when it comes to developing games but regarding k.rool, it's not good they haven't brought him back yet, but they will eventually.
How do you know of geno? I mean do you have a personal attachment to that character?
I love the dk series because I have fond memories of it from my childhood.
I still think geno is a really cool looking character but I didn't play the game he was in so I do know nothing about him and I honestly don't know if he deserves a spot between the likes of mario, dk, link and co
 
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GoodGrief741

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I don't think that licensing issues were a problem, Square enix didn't use that character all the years and it's really an honor for every character from every game or company to be in smash bros, so I don't know why square enix would make trouble.
You're very young, the time you started playing videogames the dk series had its low point because nintendo didn't know what to do with the series as rare was bought by Microsoft. That's the reason you might think that k.rool and geno are on the same boat. Most of the time it's good that Nintendo does not listen to fans when it comes to developing games but regarding k.rool, it's not good they haven't brought him back yet, but they will eventually.
How do you know geno? I mean do you have a personal attachment to that character?
I love the dk series because I have fond memories of it from my childhood.
I still think geno is a really cool looking character but I didn't play the game he was in so I do know nothing about him and I honestly don't know if he deserves a spot between the likes of mario, dk, link and co
Lmao man, K. Rool might not come back and you really need to accept that. Retro’s in charge of the franchise now, and they’ve explicitly stated they want to avoid the Kremlins and do their own thing.

Besides, all your dismissing of Geno stems from the fact that you played the DKC trilogy when it came out, but not SMRPG. Both are held in high regard and people are nostalgic about both of them. You’re letting your nostalgia for one cloud your judgment of the other.

And yes, licensing issues were a problem both for Brawl (where they weren’t part of the deal) and 4 (where they were only there for DLC and Cloud obviously took priority).

Frankly, it seems patronizing to pretend to be educating somebody on the history of Rare’s partnership with Nintendo. We’re on Smashboards, chances are they already know.
 
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Marcello691

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Lmao man, K. Rool might not come back and you really need to accept that. Retro’s in charge of the franchise now, and they’ve explicitly stated they want to avoid the Kremlins and do their own thing.

Besides, all your dismissing of Geno stems from the fact that you played the DKC trilogy when it came out, but not SMRPG. Both are held in high regard and people are nostalgic about both of them. You’re letting your nostalgia for one cloud your judgment of the other.

And yes, licensing issues were a problem both for Brawl (where they weren’t part of the deal) and 4 (where they were only there for DLC and Cloud obviously took priority).

Frankly, it seems patronizing to pretend to be educating somebody on the history of Rare’s partnership with Nintendo. We’re on Smashboards, chances are they already know.
I do accept it, Tropical freeze was almost perfect, but retro studios' enemies don't come close to the Kremlins and Nintendo realized that. The game didn't sell as well as it could, partially because the kremlins were missing again. Nintendo ruined the dk series by developing all those spin offs during the gamecube era but they eventually came back to the dkc formula because it sells, that's why k.rool will also come back, maybe for the next game or for a later game in the future. And retro is not developing donkey Kong games anymore, they are making a stupid star fox racing game. I don't think nintendo would put street signs of k.rool, the animal buddies they haven't used for years or tiny kong in mario Odyssey just for fun or to "honor" them, these are all rare created characters, developed by a British studio, this might really mean something.
Nintendo honestly didn't care about that mario rpg game that much because it didn't come out in europe and that's why I had not the chance to play it.
And there are for sure people who have also fond memories of the mario rpg game but please don't compare that to the dkc trilogy that was played by millions of people all over the world. Even dkc3 which also came out when the N64 was already on the market sold more copies in japan alone than mario rpg.
So how can people remember Geno but not Dixie Kong for instance? I'm bringing that up just because some say that they aren't in smash because people don't know dixie or k.rool. Also K.rool and Dixie are first party characters, geno is not.
Where is this stated that there were licensing issues regarding geno? Square enix can't be that dumb to not agree to let him appear in smash. I think there are other reasons.
LMAO....lol....

They aren't unrealistic, but we don't know if they were the actual RH character Sakurai worked on. We only got one leaker to imply it's that one, and now that we know Chrom was given a lot of attention before Robin, it's pretty likely it was the case. Just not confirmed the case.


You do know that Sakurai also said that he'll put Takamaru in when he gets a new game, right? That's an important note, because he never got one. Besides that, he could've just been lower priority to begin with. His "retro" choice could be someone else. He's not 3rd party, so we don't know why he's still an AT.

King K. Rool himself is not even relevant. His franchise is active, but he is not. Geno isn't either, but yes, the fact Sakurai wants him does matter. The reason Geno got a costume is that Sakurai tried to get him playable in 4 but that's the best he was able to do(Cloud being higher priority at that time makes sense, of course). K. Rool, frankly, is not in competition with Geno and never was. Geno is a severely popular character that Sakurai wants playable. He has been trying to do since Brawl. He has not said anything similar about K. Rool and at best the character's Mii costume is just a nod to the popularity of the ballot. Sakurai might not know of his far bigger popularity outside of it. Geno's popularity before the ballot is why Sakurai wants him playable to begin with. It's big. And what's with this "fans only care about this" stuff? Geno is popular because of his own merits, not "lol we need Super Mario RPG representation". Some might think that, of course, but his popularity came from his own, you know, personality and role. Besides being actually pretty cool within the game. Despite Mallow being more important to the story, he's the breakout character from it.

Lastly, K. Rool is not less relevant than Geno. If you want to talk about relevant DKC characters, look at Dixie Kong. K. Rool is long and forgotten, and while still obviously an awesome and popular character, is literally in the same boat as Geno, just with the creator only wanting one playable and has been trying to do so. When has Sakurai tried to make K. Rool playable, or care enough to do so? We don't know. In fact, he might have never tried. That means Geno was higher priority anyway. Higher priority isn't about finished product alone. If negotiations didn't fall through, he'd have been playable in Brawl. K. Rool? Who knows. He hasn't released any statements on the croc being possibly playable. 4? They both got Mii costumes, but Sakurai gave Geno a Mii costume because he was still trying to make him playable. He needed to license it first, of course, which means he gave priority to Geno too. We didn't even get a FFVII-related costume either, just a Chocobo Hat based upon a spin-off FF game that's not really related to 7, and Geno, from SMRPG. That means he went out of his way for that obscure character. Because he wanted him playable, and the costume was as close as he could get at that time. You're saying K. Rool somehow is in the same position here? Back this up, because there's seriously no reason to believe this is applicable to the croc. He's in a similar position to Geno, but also is on a lower scale right now due to any knowledge Sakurai is interested in him being playable. Until we know of that, Geno has a natural leg up.
Is Geno a religion now? So much worship for an one time Character. There are so many characters like him that appeared in only one game. Best example is the Zelda series, Skull kid, midna or girahim were very popular and are also first party characters and from one of Nintendo's flagship franchises, but they didn't get in. I'm just trying to be realistic, that's why I know that crash, spyro or rayman will not be in smash.
Can't wait to see how it all will turn out when the game finally arrives in December.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Dixie is remembered too. And was also considered by Sakurai and worked on.

K. Rool doesn't have that going for him. She's actually a better comparison to Geno. Both have been tried to be made playable, but issues stopped it.

Also, if Geno didn't have licensing issues, he still would've easily been used for a Sticker or Trophy to please his fans. There's a good chance it was a licensing issue at this point. Him not being playable can easily be a lack of time to make him work. But Sakurai wouldn't just throw away any of the content, unless he couldn't use it. Dixie still has a trophy, etc. after all despite being scrapped.

Besides that, it's fine you would prefer K. Rool over Geno. That's fair. But you shouldn't really try to dismiss his popularity or act like the fans want him in "to represent something" when some just legit have popularity for him. He'd liked. That's enough for a fan to have. They like him or they don't. They don't have to have some elaborate reason. That's not fair to anyone.

Also, don't double post. Edit your messages instead.
 

Glaciacott

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Out of curiosity, where exactly did the hype of Geno come from initially? I remember the name being a big deal pre-brawl but I still don't quite understand why Geno escalated to be such a figure while there's barely anything out there for Mallow or anything else SMRPG
 

GoodGrief741

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The game didn't sell as well as it could, partially because the kremlins were missing again.
The absolutely hilarious statement that Tropical Freeze didn’t sell as well as it could because the Kremlins weren’t in it, versus the fact that it was released on the failure that was the Wii U, and that platformers and Nintendo are nowhere as big as they were in the 90s.

And retro is not developing donkey Kong games anymore, they are making a stupid star fox racing game.
That’s an unverified leak, and even if it’s true, that doesn’t mean they can’t continue making DKC games afterwards. Or do you think another studio will pick up the slack?

I don't think nintendo would put street signs of k.rool, the animal buddies they haven't used for years or tiny kong in mario Odyssey just for fun or to "honor" them, these are all rare created characters, developed by a British studio, this might really mean something.
You don’t think petty little shout-outs and cameos in a game riddled with them are just for fun? I guess we can expect Mario Paint and the Satellaview to make a comeback. Hell, by that same logic, Geno is bound to make one too, since he showed up in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga.

Nintendo honestly didn't care about that mario rpg game that much because it didn't come out in europe and that's why I had not the chance to play it.
So that’s why it’s been re-released in the Wii and Wii U Virtual Consoles (including, yes, in Europe), and also on the SNES Classic (again, all regions). Man, if that’s what ‘not caring’ looks like, I wish Nintendo didn’t care about Mother 3.

And there are for sure people who have also fond memories of the mario rpg game but please don't compare that to the dkc trilogy that was played by millions of people all over the world. Even dkc3 which also came out when the N64 was already on the market sold more copies in japan alone than mario rpg.
Sure I can. It’s not like either game has been a flop, and both are greatly remembered, even despite the difference in sales. The funny thing about time is that it can take even poorly selling titles like EarthBound and put them on the same level as juggernauts like Final Fantasy VI.

So how can people remember Geno but not Dixie Kong for instance?
Nobody’s saying that. We’re talking about K. Rool. Dixie has continued to appear in video games.

Where is this stated that there were licensing issues regarding geno? Square enix can't be that dumb to not agree to let him appear in smash. I think there are other reasons.
Please explain what other reasons those could have been. It’s not a question of dumb, it’s a question of time constraints + low priority.

Can't wait to see how it all will turn out when the game finally arrives in December.
Here’s hoping we get K. Rool, Dixie, Geno, and a bunch of other, long-overdue characters.
 
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cybersai

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Out of curiosity, where exactly did the hype of Geno come from initially? I remember the name being a big deal pre-brawl but I still don't quite understand why Geno escalated to be such a figure while there's barely anything out there for Mallow or anything else SMRPG
The hype for Geno started around 2007 during the pre-Brawl days. I'm not sure why either, probably because Super Mario RPG was celebrating its 10th anniversary at the time (it came out in 1996), and people who grew up with it were nostalgic for it.

What I don't get is why Geno got so much more hype than any other Paper Mario character, or Mario and Luigi character, etc. Had all the Mario RPG hype been aimed at Paper Mario himself, or Fawful from Mario and Luigi, or a Paper Mario buddy....they may have been in the game by now. But everyone hyped up a Square owned character like Geno, hence why he's never gotten in.
 

EarlTamm

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What I don't get is why Geno got so much more hype than any other Paper Mario character, or Mario and Luigi character, etc. Had all the Mario RPG hype been aimed at Paper Mario himself, or Fawful from Mario and Luigi, or a Paper Mario buddy....they may have been in the game by now. But everyone hyped up a Square owned character like Geno, hence why he's never gotten in.
Well, it could come down to Super Mario RPG's importance in both the Mario series and gaming as a whole. Every Mario RPG after it inherited mechanics and idea's of SMRPG, be it the timed hits, the focus on humor, Bowser's personality, etc. But it was also the first RPG many people played back in the day. Compared to now, RPG's meant nothing in the west. Square could not make any dent in the western market, so they desired the assistance from the most iconic face in gaming to breach the wall and get people exposed and into RPG's. For many, SMRPG was not only their first RPG, but the game that got them to love the genre. And Geno was the one who most benefited from it. Compared to almost everything else in SMRPG, even other new character's like Mallow and Booster, Geno felt the most alien to the Mario series, with his unique appearance and concept, it made him one of the most stand out things in the game. Other than that, maybe possible Paper Mario reps lost hype after Super Paper Mario(Remember when that game was widely hated?) and the same could be said for M&L after Partners in Time?
 

EricTheGamerman

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Again, I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why fan picks shouldn't get in when they have history with Nintendo. I know people talk about how the roster would be if fans were designing it in a typically negative light. But what is wrong with giving the fans what they want when those characters are coming from Nintendo history? Especially when the majority of the big stuff is already incredibly represented (DK series aside, but that also benefits from having a lot of fan support as a result). If Smash is supposed to be a celebration of all things Nintendo and gaming, why not include characters than Nintendo has the rights to (King K. Rool, Isaac, Dixie Kong, etc.) or those that can be easily attained (Geno)? Satisfying fans is only good PR for Nintendo, Smash, and Sakurai.

All that said, the game can have new relevant fighters as well. I get that the current situation with "Not expecting too many newcomers" does put a bit of a strain on that situation, but, I don't see why a handful of characters can't be split from both areas. Include classic fan requests AND newer characters that have had bigger booms in popularity like Ashley, Bandanna Dee, Elma, and Isabelle. That just makes the most sense to me. I just don't see why fan request of characters isn't enough of a reason to include a couple of choices per game.

On the DK front for this game, as long as we get something substantial in playable form I won't be disappointed to be honest. I desperately want King K. Rool to be playable, but if we get Dixie Kong as at least a solid semi-clone, I'll be happy DK finally got another rep and some attention. I mean, I'll certainly be annoyed that so much popularity can't get a character in, but it's easier to stomach with Dixie in.
 

DNeon

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Again, I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why fan picks shouldn't get in when they have history with Nintendo. I know people talk about how the roster would be if fans were designing it in a typically negative light. But what is wrong with giving the fans what they want when those characters are coming from Nintendo history?
I'm not throwing my hat in on the Geno/K.Rool discussion personally, I just thought I'd address this one point.

I think that, while recognising the history of Nintendo is also a great and fun experience, something can be said about current characters being more engaging, where players can move from playing their favourite games directly into playing that character in Smash. It's inherently harder to do that with the older games, and especially when some parts of that older game may not hold up (again, not throwing shade at either character here, just in general). There's also the matter that, as is clearly the case here, some characters are remembered for their importance in the situation surrounding them, where SMRPG was a lot of people's first foray into RPGs and it helped build them as a genre in the west, that isn't an impact that the character will have on everyone, and inherently can't have on any new players, so new players going back to play that game may not be as inspired by him.

Of course, not all of this is important, Duck Hunt won't have the same impact to new people playing either, and ICs inclusion is pretty much an eternal mystery as much as Smash fans love them. I just thought I'd comment on why 'just pleasing the fans' isn't necessarily the only thing that should impact a character's inclusion (outside of the obvious :pimp:dolla dolla bills yall :pimp:).
 
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Marcello691

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That’s an unverified leak, and even if it’s true, that doesn’t mean they can’t continue making DKC games afterwards. Or do you think another studio will pick up the slack?
It was Shigeru Miyamoto's idea to let retro make dk country you know. And retro also wanted to bring back the kremlins, but miyamoto didn't want that because they are trying to stay away from rare's creations.

You don’t think petty little shout-outs and cameos in a game riddled with them are just for fun? I guess we can expect Mario Paint and the Satellaview to make a comeback. Hell, by that same logic, Geno is bound to make one too, since he showed up in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga.
It is pretty big because Nintendo seemed to ignore rare's dkc series all the years and to having those references from the British rare in Nintendo's flagship title mario Odyssey is very big. And don't forget that geno is not a first party character, in Geno's case it was probably only a cameo and not more.

Sure I can. It’s not like either game has been a flop, and both are greatly remembered, even despite the difference in sales. The funny thing about time is that it can take even poorly selling titles like EarthBound and put them on the same level as juggernauts like Final Fantasy VI.
I haver nerver played a final fantasy game and I loved earthbound, it's a great game but what you're saying there is just ridiculous, earthbound is nowhere the same level as final fantasy, even I do know characters from final fantasy and like said I've never played a game in that series, even people not familiar with videogames have heard of final fantasy but not of earthbound, people do know ness and lucas from smash but they don't always know the game. Even though it was released on virtual console doesn't mean it will have millions of downloads and as such a wider audience. If that was the case we would have got a new title in that series.

Here’s hoping we get K. Rool, Dixie, Geno, and a bunch of other, long-overdue characters.
That's what I hope too, I liked your post because of that sentence.
Hope there's a direct this month with character reveals for smash
 

Door Key Pig

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Of course, not all of this is important, Duck Hunt won't have the same impact to new people playing either, and ICs inclusion is pretty much an eternal mystery as much as Smash fans love them. I just thought I'd comment on why 'just pleasing the fans' isn't necessarily the only thing that should impact a character's inclusion (outside of the obvious :pimp:dolla dolla bills yall :pimp:).
Well the Ice Climbers were like, the one retro NES rep they thought up for Melee that worked right? The others of Balloon Fighter, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Urban Champion and Excitebiker being less favourable?

In terms of indie reps coming to Smash, I kind of don't see it happening for "flash in the pan" games with only one title to boot and little to no Nintendo significance (Undertale, Shovel Knight). Minecraft did take the world by storm though, and if Vergeben's correct then that's getting some representation in the game. There's also significance in Japan that characters like Shantae... May have? Though that could be loosened assuming they're popular elsewhere in the world (if Bayo can supposedly get in for popularity in Europe...). Like Shantae (as much as an "indie" character as she is) has had a history with Nintendo and shown fan interest in getting her in (maybe in the Smash ballot?). Who else can you all think of?
 

EarlTamm

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Who else can you all think of?
I don't hear him getting thrown around that much, but Quote could be a neat historical Indie rep. Cave Story is often seen as the original indie game and there is a history with Nintendo. Though, if it were to come to a competition between Quote and Shantae, I see Shantae winning through her history with Nintendo, having more individual games, and actually being older than Quote by two years, kinda making her the oldest character considered an indie.
 

Draugen

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I don't know if we'll get any indie representation on Smash. It would be nice to see some of the most popular characters, but I believe they'll stick more to the long-term fan requests. That is my feeling since the E3 trailer and Ridley's reveal trailer. Even a nostalgic representation (NES; SNES maybe?) seems a bit off, but I may be wrong.
 

AquaSol

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Good prediction with no oddballs/bias! The only two I’m hesitant on are Elma and Chorus Kids. The Chorus Kids has evidence found of having work done on them for Smash 4. The only issue I see is if they were dropped because Sakurai didn’t like the idea of them. As for Elma, I feel like that would be a weird choice because she’s not the main character. It would be like adding Pyra and only Pyra from XC2. I could be wrong though
I actually meant to put Elma/Rex & Pyra in my post, but I forgot lol. I just think it's going to be Elma for the reason that most others think - she was more relevant at the time.

I am honestly pretty confident on the Chorus Kids, though. We don't have definitive evidence to validate Gematsu, but I think it's borderline-delusional to say that it was all lucky guesses. The Rhythm Heaven character icon, the abundance of Rhythm Heaven trophies (more than any other misc. series), and the Sneaky Spirit in Smash Run all point towards a RH rep being planned. I do think it was the Chorus Kids, but maybe it was someone else. Either way, I think we're seeing them for one big reason. Sakurai works under the oversight of the character's creators, so he probably told the Rhythm Heaven developers that he intended to put one of their characters into Smash. I feel that any developer - especially a smaller one like them - would be ecstatic to hear that. Rhythm Heaven didn't have dead characters and wasn't a dead franchise, so the marketing was likely really exciting for them. For Sakurai to say that, then take the Chorus Kids out (probably due to technical limitations), and then exclude them from a new game that isn't hindered by technical limitations would be a slap in the face. I know Sakurai isn't obligated to add one of their characters, but I don't know if he would do them dirty like that. My guess is that he told them something like "Chorus Kids aren't going to be able to happen this game, but we'll make them work for the next."

64 had Dedede/Bowser/Mewtwo cut and Brawl had the Forbidden 7, but all those characters were already from major franchises with playable reps. Rhythm Heaven still has nothing, and it was probably really big for the developers. Regardless, I think Rhythm Heaven is the most slept-on franchise for roster predictions. Chorus Kids would be extremely unique, so I'd definitely welcome them.
 
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DNeon

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I'm still personally more interested in Karate Joe, despite the fact that there's plenty of Karate already I kinda just prefer him as a character and he can be differentiated from otehr martial artists by having other characters or rhythm gimmicks play a role
 

GalacticPetey

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I don't like the idea of Karate Joe because all his moves would be generic martial arts moves. A character like Marshal or the Chorus Kids has potential to be a zany Mr. Game and Watch style representation of their whole series.
 

AquaSol

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I'm still personally more interested in Karate Joe, despite the fact that there's plenty of Karate already I kinda just prefer him as a character and he can be differentiated from otehr martial artists by having other characters or rhythm gimmicks play a role
Karate Joe would be fine, but I like the Chorus Kids mainly for the trio gimmick. That's something that has never been attempted in a fighting game, to my knowledge. There's characters like Pokemon Trainer and Triborg from MKX, but I'm taking about three characters on the screen at the same time. They would also have the rhythm gimmick which makes them doubly unique in that regard. Still, Karate Joe would be cool!
 

DNeon

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A character like Marshal or the Chorus Kids has potential to be a zany Mr. Game and Watch style representation of their whole series.
Karate Joe is no less capable of doing that, he just also has a karate combo that's the only minigame thats been in every Rhythm Heaven.
 
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Opossum

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The Chorus Kids are my preferred Rhythm Heaven pick for a few reason.

- Many RH minigames rely on groups of characters, which helps with the "keep with the rhythm" aspect.

- By being choir singers, they're directly tied to music much more than, say, Karate Joe or the Wrestler and Reporter are.
 

EricTheGamerman

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I'm not throwing my hat in on the Geno/K.Rool discussion personally, I just thought I'd address this one point.

I think that, while recognising the history of Nintendo is also a great and fun experience, something can be said about current characters being more engaging, where players can move from playing their favourite games directly into playing that character in Smash. It's inherently harder to do that with the older games, and especially when some parts of that older game may not hold up (again, not throwing shade at either character here, just in general). There's also the matter that, as is clearly the case here, some characters are remembered for their importance in the situation surrounding them, where SMRPG was a lot of people's first foray into RPGs and it helped build them as a genre in the west, that isn't an impact that the character will have on everyone, and inherently can't have on any new players, so new players going back to play that game may not be as inspired by him.

Of course, not all of this is important, Duck Hunt won't have the same impact to new people playing either, and ICs inclusion is pretty much an eternal mystery as much as Smash fans love them. I just thought I'd comment on why 'just pleasing the fans' isn't necessarily the only thing that should impact a character's inclusion (outside of the obvious :pimp:dolla dolla bills yall :pimp:).
Sorry, that wasn’t directing at you or anyone. I just saw some Geno discussion coming up and I usually end up throwing my hat in the ring.

I definitely get the idea of a relationship between newer players and the games that characters come from (Melee and Brawl introduced me to so much of Nintendo that I hadn’t previously paid attention to). Though I’d say on average, most Nintendo games hold up astoundingly well considering their time. Especially compared to a lot of competitor games (Seriously the PS1 era is near unplayable with the exceptions of RPGs and Metal Gear Solid). Not that it makes a difference if characters don’t inspire new fans, but I think it would make things easier, especially with the classic line of consoles being released.

Though, really, that’s why I brought up the compromise argument. You can have newer characters AND bigger fan requests in the game and please more people all around. You’ll never quite satisfy everyone with every character after all.
 

SweetestB0i

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I don't really understand why square would withhold Geno. Nintendo has done more with Geno than Square has since RPG, Square hasn't even touched him.
 

Sid-cada

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I don't like the idea of Karate Joe because all his moves would be generic martial arts moves. A character like Marshal or the Chorus Kids has potential to be a zany Mr. Game and Watch style representation of their whole series.
Can I say that I disagree with a zany Game and Watch style representation?

How many items can you name that bring to mind Rhythm Heaven? The reoccurring rod-between-two-nuts widget, the beat with the face, whatever the heck the thing in Donk-Donk is supposed to be... maybe a fork and a few pieces of sport equipment, if you stretch it.

The fact is, most people remember the motions characters perform, more than any individual object in the series. The series ingrains responses to audio-visual cues into the player, so they end up doing the right action. This act really brings the motions into us, to the point that saying certain cues still brings to mind the motion of what we needed to do.

A quick test:

Turn Right! Let's sit down! Let's sit down! Pa-Pa-Pa-Punch!

One! Chow! One! Chow! Chew-two! ChowChow! One! Chow! Three! Go! Go! Go!

Hi-hi-hi A hoy-mm-ha-mm-ha hi!

Break c'mon OH! ... Scracho-Hey!

Jab! Jab! And one-two! Jab! Jab!

Wena-****a wirt-wirt! Wena-****a wirt-wirt!


You can almost feel the cues, don't you?


Now, while a chibi character like The Chorus Kids or the monkeys might be able to do the same motions, ultimately their smaller proportions means that many of the movies would lack the same effect as a more normally proportioned character.


Let me ask you this, who do you think would be better able to perform a Wrestler X impersonation: Karate Joe or a Chorus Kid?
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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I'm still sure king k rool will get in this one (caustiously optimistic)

Get in the same way Ridley did basicly
 
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GalacticPetey

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Can I say that I disagree with a zany Game and Watch style representation?

How many items can you name that bring to mind Rhythm Heaven? The reoccurring rod-between-two-nuts widget, the beat with the face, whatever the heck the thing in Donk-Donk is supposed to be... maybe a fork and a few pieces of sport equipment, if you stretch it.

The fact is, most people remember the motions characters perform, more than any individual object in the series. The series ingrains responses to audio-visual cues into the player, so they end up doing the right action. This act really brings the motions into us, to the point that saying certain cues still brings to mind the motion of what we needed to do.

A quick test:

Turn Right! Let's sit down! Let's sit down! Pa-Pa-Pa-Punch!

One! Chow! One! Chow! Chew-two! ChowChow! One! Chow! Three! Go! Go! Go!

Hi-hi-hi A hoy-mm-ha-mm-ha hi!

Break c'mon OH! ... Scracho-Hey!

Jab! Jab! And one-two! Jab! Jab!

Wena-****a wirt-wirt! Wena-****a wirt-wirt!


You can almost feel the cues, don't you?


Now, while a chibi character like The Chorus Kids or the monkeys might be able to do the same motions, ultimately their smaller proportions means that many of the movies would lack the same effect as a more normally proportioned character.


Let me ask you this, who do you think would be better able to perform a Wrestler X impersonation: Karate Joe or a Chorus Kid?
I'm gonna be completely honest, I've never played a Rhythm Heaven game, nor do I know much about the series. From my outsider's perspective, Karate Joe just seems so basic. The Chorus Kids or even Marshal seem much more unique and stand out more. Again, as an outsider to the series, they're the first things that spring to mind. And The Chorus Kids have a lot of potential what with them being a trio, whether Sakurai makes them into an Ice Climbers type deal or just a really big hurt box consisting of three people.

Karate Joe just doesn't seem like the "Sakurai pick" to me. I'm just speculating here but I feel like Sakurai would rather go for someone like the Chorus Kids instead.
 

Starbound

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New Roster.



75 characters. 10 newcomers, 3 of which are echoes. Like in Smash 4, the clones have their own section of the roster, sorted by Smash debut of the original character. It's a different kind of roster as a lot of the usual picks are gone (Waddle Dee, Geno, Decidueye/Lycanroc/Mimikyu and K. Rool, amongst others).

Simon: The third party that is the most glaring omission from the current roster and the most easily attainable. Uses the obligatory whip to be a long ranged fighter, with range similar to the Monado. All whip attacks can be angled up or down similar to Marth's new Shield Breaker, and with Whip Smashes, Simon has smashes that reach in all the diagonal directions as well, as well as aerials that can as well. Close combat offers him a sword as a CQC weapon, though it is weak and not ideal as Simon is designed as a zoner. He is also unique in terms of properties: he's lightweight (reflecting how easily he can be knocked back in his games), is slow (weird for a lightweight) and a poor jumper (which, combined with his low speed, gives him some of the slowest movement options in the game). However, his attack speed is rather fast. His most similar competition would be Rosalina in terms of playstyle, only Simon uses a barrage of attacks instead of a puppet to keep the opponent out. The whip's range is about as far as uncharged Luma Shot too, for scale. Specials do not include the whip, but do include throwing knives (Neutral Special: as fast as Needle Storm, but cannot be charged so only one knife is thrown at a time), Holy Water (Down Special: small pillars of flame appear from the ground, traveling away from Simon. The size is about as tall as Elfire.) and the axe (Side Special. Thrown in an arc like Yoshi's Eggs. Designed as an anti-air and deals more damage against airborne opponents). The Up Special is a Whip tether now that we know they're back. The final Smash is the Rosery, which is a quick flash of holy light that instantly kills anyone with more than 100%).

Chorus Kids: The rhythm based fighter. Every attack has two hitboxes, with the option to do a third one via an additional input. The attacks are spaced out rhythmically, so following the beat for the third input is key. Landing the rhythm will result in increased damage and knockback, while missing the beat reduces damage and knockback instead. The importance of setting the beat is why I believe this trio is the best Rhythm Heaven character, as the hits connecting provide audible cues to set the beat for the third attack. This would be opposed to a visual cue for characters like Karate Joe or Wrestler, as well as other Timed Hit characters like Geno or Paper Mario. Like Duck Hunt, all three characters move as one and they follow each other and share percent. This does give them a rather large hitbox horizontally, though it is compensated with low height (their hitbox is Mario's, rotated 90 degrees. The moves are all based on rhythm minigames from the large assortment available in Mega Mix.

Elma: Honestly it could be any Xenoblade character, but I think Elma stands out the most due to Skells. Elma fights in her Skell, which has the entire arsenal of XC2 weapons in it. We're talking guns, lasers, missiles, swords and shields. Like the Clown Car Jr., the Skell takes reduced damage and knockback from attacks, though Elma cannot be damaged herself while piloting the Skell. However, once the Skell takes 100%, the Skell explodes (dealing no damage) and Elma appears and fights on the ground (the percentage is shared between Elma and Skell, and Elma appearing does have a few invulnerable frames like Pokemon Change). In this form, Elma fights with her dual guns and dual swords, giving her both ranged and CQC options, as well as movement options through moves like Sliding Slinger. Basically, think of every moveset you've seen for Elma. This is what that is, but the integration of the Skell gives her something truly different and makes her a Stance-change fighter. Unlike Bowser Jr., she does not take increased damage from hitting her body. The final smash varies depending on form: In the Skell, she'll simply force it to explode. This time, it deals tremendous damage. On foot, she performs Hundred Shells, unleashing a barrage of bullets in front of her.

Nihilego: I think this is the most interesting Pokemon option we have. Nihilego fights by poisoning its foes. Most of its special moves and all fully charged Smashes inflict poison, which is displayed on the HUD. Poison causes damage over time like White Pikmin (in fact, its the same status effect), and lasts 7 seconds unless reapplied. Nihilego's attacks are laughably weak (it only has 53 attack, barely double what Pichu has), but it racks damage up quick thanks to Poison's DoT. Additionally, its moves are much stronger when striking a Poisoned foe. It can spread its poison through Acid Spray (Neutral Special: an arc-shaped poison spray that attacks in-front), Venom Drench (Side Special: a vertical shot of poison, kind of like a laser) and Toxic Spikes (Down Special: lay a toxic trap on stage similar to Banana Peel; can have two at a time; cannot be picked up; If a third is summoned, the oldest vanishes). The recovery is Head Smash, which is a lot like Fire Fox in that it is an angleable recovery with a charge time. This one also deals self-damage to Nihilego. This moveset gives Nihilego the unique status as a debuffer, based around crippling the opponent from all sides so that is can win. Rather fitting for a Parasitic Pokemon if I do say so.

Spring Man: I think we'll be getting something from the early Switch time as the Switch is a big deal. ARMS was developed alongside Smash, and I believe a placeholder for an early Switch character could have been part of the design proposal (which turned into Spring Man). All of Spring Man's moves have a lot of reach to them, obviously. Charging also increases range as well as damage, which fits into ARMS key mechanic of always charging punches. He's also rather average in terms of stats, though after 100%, he no longer has to charge his moves to reach max damage and range; like in ARMS, they are permanently charged to max. Neutral Special is Toaster, a charging move with a fire effect at max range. This range is identical to Jolt Haymaker's range at max charge, though not reversible and does less damage to compensate for the massive range. You can also angle it as it flies. Side Special is Boomerang, with similar range. The caveat is that the fist only goes halfway: the boomerang on the arm is then released to complete the distance, and, like the Links, Spring Man can move around and the boomerang follows him back. The knockback on max-charge is also really high, referencing the wind effect in the original game. Side Special is Tribolt, a stunning three-pronged projectile that leaves his hand immediately (the fist has no hitbox). At max charge, this stuns just like ZSS gun. All other attacks use the Toaster, meaning the fire element is applied on all attacks. Up Special is a Grab, where he grabs the ledge kind of like a tether. However, if he finds the ledge, he goes flying towards it, with himself being a hitbox to prevent any edge guards. The final smash is the Rush ability, which is literally just a barrage of punches. As a final nod to his game and his innate parry ability, Spring Man's perfect shield timings are easier to hit due to a longer duration by a few frames (think Bat Within in terms of a grace period).

Dixie Kong: Diddy with positive multipliers applied to her jump height and speed, and negative multipliers on damage and knockback (the inverse of Dr. Mario). This gives Dixie a mean combo game, with the tradeoff of taking forever to kill. Additionally, she has Diddy's Flying Monkey Flip custom: going farther in range but less damage, as well as the Rocketbarrel Kaboom custom, which provides more maneuverability with the risk of explosion if terrain is hit (she's never flown before!).

Isabelle: Property-wise, she's identical to Villager (just a smidge shorter, like Lucina), and she's lighter. However, she has the legendary Timber Counter custom, complete with the tripping sapling and Wobbuffet tree. This puts a further emphasis on zoning due to the lightweight and the new tools the new move provides.
 

Dalek_Kolt

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Drew Ganon and Ganondorf.
dorf.png
Wow, they look nothing alike.
Bit of a pipe dream but I want Ganon in a Smash game someday to both compliment his human form and placate both Falcondorf fans and people demanding a more faithful moveset alike.
 
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Captain Shades

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I wouldn't get your hopes up, because Sakurai said to not expect too many newcomers in the direct, and I honestly doubt that we're going to match the amount of unique newcomers that were added in Smash 4 excluding DLC.
Then again I could be extremely wrong, and that'd be great if I was.
Sakurai lies, he’s also putting less work in this time in terms of building an engine as he is simply tweaking the Wii U one, making it easy to port characters over. It’s not unlikely to have 12 newcomers taking that into account.
 

Idon

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Drew Ganon and Ganondorf.
Wow, they look nothing alike.
Bit of a pipe dream but I want Ganon in a Smash game someday to both compliment his human form and placate both Falcondorf fans and people demanding a more faithful moveset alike.
But that won't placate Falcondorf detractors.
They want Ganondorf represented faithfully, not Ganon. Ganon fans are a whole nother fanbase.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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But that won't placate Falcondorf detractors.
They want Ganondorf represented faithfully, not Ganon. Ganon fans are a whole nother fanbase.
Exactly this. The Moblin is radically different. It's Falcondorf people are annoyed at, not the character you can't really play as.

Like, even Giga Bowser is playable in 2 games in some way, even if it's not for a long time. Ganon in all his Smash appearances is basically a glorified cutscene Final Smash. OOT Ganon is also the first time Moblin Ganon makes a proper gameplay appearance in any way, but still isn't playable either way. Yeah, Ganon and Ganondorf are the same person, but they're vastly different forms when it comes to moveset potential, which is also why some are interested in a playable Ganon himself. Not just faithfulness, mind you, but because there's a lot one can do.

If not clear, my first paragraph is agreeing with your point while my second paragraph is saying why Moblin Ganon has some popularity.
 

cybersai

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It's hard to believe Zelda hasn't gotten a truly new rep since Melee. Toon Link was just a slight variation of Young Link in Brawl, and now they're both back, etc.

It's really bizarre. I don't know why Sakurai is so against either putting Impa, Ganon, Skull Kid, etc. there. I don't care who the new Zelda rep is really, I just find it weird that since literally 2001....maybe 2008 if you're being generous, we have not gotten a new Zelda rep in more than a decade.
 

Captain Shades

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It's hard to believe Zelda hasn't gotten a truly new rep since Melee. Toon Link was just a slight variation of Young Link in Brawl, and now they're both back, etc.

It's really bizarre. I don't know why Sakurai is so against either putting Impa, Ganon, Skull Kid, etc. there. I don't care who the new Zelda rep is really, I just find it weird that since literally 2001....maybe 2008 if you're being generous, we have not gotten a new Zelda rep in more than a decade.
Don’t know why, but I feel Impa may be in this one. As stated it’s been way to long since we’ve gotten a Zelda character that isn’t a variation of Link or Zelda, and since Impa is in 8 games, I think she can be considered important enough to make it.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Don’t know why, but I feel Impa may be in this one. As stated it’s been way to long since we’ve gotten a Zelda character that isn’t a variation of Link or Zelda, and since Impa is in 8 games, I think she can be considered important enough to make it.
She has very inconsistent designs, which can be an issue. But as long as she has a model that could be easily cloned from Sheik, she's an easy addition. May not be as easy if they go for a more unique moveset, though. And if that's the case, she might not make it in. The Zelda series literally got one all new character in Brawl. Sakurai has shown he's got the "important characters" and hasn't shown any real interest in the characters beyond the main Triforce trio. I wouldn't call anyone likely beyond forms of those. Sadly, the same applies for Moblin Ganon. But considering Ganondorf barely got in by pure luck, and not on his own merits, it's quite possible he thinks only forms of Zelda/Link are important enough to add. I mean, he had ideas for a literal Toon clone of Zelda and Sheik, after all. If it wasn't for Melee, we may not have ever gotten Ganon/Dorf. Which is sad to think about, but a possible reality.
 

Captain Shades

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She has very inconsistent designs, which can be an issue. But as long as she has a model that could be easily cloned from Sheik, she's an easy addition. May not be as easy if they go for a more unique moveset, though. And if that's the case, she might not make it in. The Zelda series literally got one all new character in Brawl. Sakurai has shown he's got the "important characters" and hasn't shown any real interest in the characters beyond the main Triforce trio. I wouldn't call anyone likely beyond forms of those. Sadly, the same applies for Moblin Ganon. But considering Ganondorf barely got in by pure luck, and not on his own merits, it's quite possible he thinks only forms of Zelda/Link are important enough to add. I mean, he had ideas for a literal Toon clone of Zelda and Sheik, after all. If it wasn't for Melee, we may not have ever gotten Ganon/Dorf. Which is sad to think about, but a possible reality.
If Sakurai would let down his defenses and allow designs from outside sources, obviously Hyrule Warriors makes for a pretty definitive design for Impa. Otherwise, he mine as well just pick an era, like he did with every other character. Skyward Sword or Ocarina both have loved designs so he could try those.

For a unique moveset, again, look no further than Hyrule Warriors, which gives her a gigantic sword and water abilities, or if Sakurai wanted to be more original, she does wield a spear with some more fire properties to it. She would be interesting being the only spear user (aside from the inevitable Bandana Dee) giving her quite an edge as a character.

As for Zelda importance, I think the lack of any non-trio reps is due to a lack of consistent characters. Midna, Girahim, Zant, Darunia, and the Champions are great, but they show up for one title only (excluding Warriors). There aren’t many Zelda characters that break away from being relegated to just one appearance in mainline titles. With her being in 8 and seemingly still going, I would imagine that Impa has earnedsome level of importance in the series as she is Zelda’s consistent body guard. Having Impa guard Zelda in the world of Smash would make complete sense, even if it isn’t her Zelda. Impa would make for a great addition being important, popular, another female rep, and a Zelda rep that isn’t part of the main trio, so I hope she gets in.

Also, Ganondorf is Sakurai’s favorite character in Smash, so he’d probably make his debut in Brawl if he didn’t make it in Melee.
 

cybersai

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Impa being a Sheik echo has been discussed a few times. Of course it's yet alone clone/echo and not a unique character, but I guess better than nothing.
 
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