Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[CannonStreak]

An ARMS character was ALSO intended (or at least, considered) for the base game They could totally’ve done Spring Man with the Plant if they wanted. And, you know, not an AT.

Not so sure on that one. I mean, Rex wasn’t getting in since his game was announced after the roster for Ultimate was finalized. I can imagine the same for ARMS.

 

[SneakyLink]

An ARMS character was ALSO intended (or at least, considered) for the base game They could totally’ve done Spring Man with the Plant if they wanted. And, you know, not an AT.

Except that would've required creating a new stage, which, since bringing everyone and (most) everywhere was a priority, wasn't the best use of time for that moment.

The roster was also finalized before ARMS was announced and since it was a new IP, it was likely impossible to tell if it would work or not.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

fite me irl

rite now

ill win cuz my cause is just

You can't deny Ghirahim was awesome regardless of which of us wins, so I win either way

 

[Staarih]

It's almost as if, in the lead up to TGS, Capcom's deliberately reminding people that Monster Hunter has a history on Nintendo platforms and you should probably catch up on it.

Probably just a coincidence, though. https://t.co/EGpMXxlvdR

— Alex Aniel (@cvxfreak) September 9, 2020

Interesting, very interesting...

A new Monster Hunter on the Switch would be huge, at least in Japan. Console sales would skyrocket, the 3DS entries sold crazy numbers, so I feel like a modern-day handheld MH is definitely anticipated.

That said, I've never really given much thought about a Monster Hunter character getting in Smash as DLC. Hmm, it would definitely make sense though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

An ARMS character was ALSO intended (or at least, considered) for the base game They could totally’ve done Spring Man with the Plant if they wanted. And, you know, not an AT.

Spring Man and Rex were never intended to join the base roster, nor were they considered, but they were considered shoe-ins by so many people Sakurai explained that they simply did not fit the time frame. Piranha Plant was intended for the base roster but wasn't finished on time and thus held back as a DLC character

 

[osby]

I think a lot of people miss that considering a character =/= magically creating extra development time and sources for their implementation

No video game can include everything that developers wanted, a lot of content simply miss the release date and maybe get added later down the line if they are lucky.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I still don't get why people think Piranha Plant was a base game concept that got delayed...

 

[ShrimpScampi]

You know, for a franchise as well known as Prince of Persia, I know nearly nothing about him. I know you've expressed wanting him in Smash before, but outside of acrobatics, a water sword and reversing time, what would he bring to the table moveset wise?

There are a few mechanics from different games they could pull from, even if not all of them are in the same continuity. The 2008 Prince of Persia reboot has him use a claw gauntlet, which is used both for climbing and for up-close grappling with enemies (in addition to his sword). His traveling companion in the reboot, Elika, also has various magic abilities that are used for platforming & combat.

In the Sands of Time continuity, Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones introduces a Dark Prince transformation, where he kind of becomes infused with the Sands of Time. In that transformation, he can make use of the metal chain wrapped around his arm in combat like a whip, although it’s less like the Belmonts where it reaches out in a single direction, instead having more wide, sweeping attacks.

All in all, while I think his moveset would most likely center around acrobatics, swordplay, and time manipulation, since that’s rather consistent throughout the series, there are other mechanics/combat abilities from various games they could throw in to spice things up.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I think a lot of people miss that considering a character =/= magically creating extra development time and sources for their implementation

No video game can include everything that developers wanted, a lot of content simply miss the release date and maybe get added later down the line if they are lucky.

Still waiting on that RH character planned for 4

Any day now...

 

[SneakyLink]

I still don't get why people think Piranha Plant was a base game concept that got delayed...

Mostly because it has a unique Palutena's Guidance when compared to the other DLC characters using the generic "intruder from another dimension one".

 

[RileyXY1]

I still don't get why people think Piranha Plant was a base game concept that got delayed...

It is the only DLC character that has a unique Palutena's Guidance conversation. All of the Fighter Pass characters just use the generic "intruder from another dimension" one that was used for Smash 4's DLC characters.

 

[Perkilator]

No, they couldn't have. Do you even play the game enough to see how limited AT behavior is compared to a fighter CPU?

I already said Spring Man wouldn’t have been an AT if he were an early purchase bonus like Piranha Plant.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I still don't get why people think Piranha Plant was a base game concept that got delayed...

It makes far too much sense, there were absolutely zero Piranha Plant Spirits in the base game, there was the Palutena Guidance which means they recorded lines for Plant at the same time as everyone else as you wouldn't hire 3 VAs for DLC and then not make any Guidances for the other DLC characters and finally, one of the Pokemon Classic modes has you fight characters associated with elements that weren't actually Pokemon, but Ivysaur was an oppenent, they likely wanted to keep that theme of elemental fighters consistent but no Plant meant Ivysaur was the only nature associated character on the roster

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Mostly because it has a unique Palutena's Guidance when compared to the other DLC characters using the generic "intruder from another dimension one".

It is the only DLC character that has a unique Palutena's Guidance conversation. All of the Fighter Pass characters just use the generic "intruder from another dimension" one that was used for Smash 4's DLC characters.

Except he also has the distinction of being the only DLC to have been worked on during the base game's development.

It's highly possible he was always meant to be a bonus, but took advantage of the fact that they worked on him while Guidances were also recorded to give him a unique one, something they can't really do for the other DLCs, which started work some time after the base game was launched, due to a more limited budget.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I already said Spring Man wouldn’t have been an AT if he were an early purchase bonus like Piranha Plant.

And Piranha Plant wouldn't have been a fighter if Spring Man was an early purchase bonus.

 

[Perkilator]

And Piranha Plant wouldn't have been a fighter if Spring Man was an early purchase bonus.

But I’m saying they could coexist.

 

[RileyXY1]

It makes far too much sense, there were absolutely zero Piranha Plant Spirits in the base game, there was the Palutena Guidance which means they recorded lines for Plant at the same time as everyone else as you wouldn't hire 3 VAs for DLC and then not make any Guidances for the other DLC characters and finally, one of the Pokemon Classic modes has you fight characters associated with elements that weren't actually Pokemon, but Ivysaur was an oppenent, they likely wanted to keep that theme of elemental fighters consistent but no Plant meant Ivysaur was the only nature associated character on the roster

Actually, Greninja's route has players fight against Pokemon alongside non-Pokemon characters associated with their type. The round featuring Ivysaur is, however, the only round in Greninja's route where the player doesn't fight a non-Pokemon character.

 

[MooMew64]

I think a lot of people miss that considering a character =/= magically creating extra development time and sources for their implementation

No video game can include everything that developers wanted, a lot of content simply miss the release date and maybe get added later down the line if they are lucky.

Are you telling me game development is hard, time consuming work and Sakurai doesn't just walk in front of a computer, snap his fingers, and then a character just gets willed into existence?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It makes far too much sense, there were absolutely zero Piranha Plant Spirits in the base game, there was the Palutena Guidance which means they recorded lines for Plant at the same time as everyone else as you wouldn't hire 3 VAs for DLC and then not make any Guidances for the other DLC characters and finally, one of the Pokemon Classic modes has you fight characters associated with elements that weren't actually Pokemon, but Ivysaur was an oppenent, they likely wanted to keep that theme of elemental fighters consistent but no Plant meant Ivysaur was the only nature associated character on the roster

How many times has the fanbase been right about stuff like that so far?

Until I see an article where Sakurai himself explicitly says he was a delayed base game concept, I'm not going to believe it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But I’m saying they could coexist.

If they didn't decide on Spring Man being an AT that doesn't magically give them all the resources to make a fighter, since, you know, ASSIST TROPHIES HAVE A LOT LESS WORK PUT INTO THEM.

 

[Megadoomer]

I still don't get why people think Piranha Plant was a base game concept that got delayed...

They're the only DLC character with a unique Palutena's Guidance, a Piranha Plant spirit was conspicuously absent in the base game (Nipper enhanced into Petey Piranha), and the Piranha Plant amiibo was released alongside base game characters like K. Rool and Ice Climbers, while the amiibo for other DLC characters still haven't been released.

Maybe it could mean that they were worked on alongside the base game, but either way, all of that stands out as being pretty unusual.

 

[Perkilator]

If they didn't decide on Spring Man being an AT that doesn't magically give them all the resources to make a fighter, since, you know, ASSIST TROPHIES HAVE A LOT LESS WORK PUT INTO THEM.

Why do you keep insisting he’d still use his AT animations?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Except he also has the distinction of being the only DLC to have been worked on during the base game's development.

It's highly possible he was always meant to be a bonus, but took advantage of the fact that they worked on him while Guidances were also recorded to give him a unique one, something they can't really do for the other DLCs, which started work some time after the base game was launched, due to a more limited budget.

That would mean A: Plant was held off for a looooong time and was held off despite not being released until 2 months later or that they simply chose not to make unique Guidances or record them pretty damn late in development when they knew they'd make DLC and who the 5 characters would be

How many times has the fanbase been right about stuff like that so far?

Until I see an article where Sakurai himself explicitly says he was a delayed base game concept, I'm not going to believe it.

Well in that case, the evidence of a Rhythm Heaven Character being planned simply is fake despite literally being datamined as Sakurai never addressed that. Not to mention Sakurai never said why Plant was DLC either as he simply explained the addition. It works both ways, but one side has a surprising amount of potential evidence to back the claim up while the other doesn't

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If they didn't decide on Spring Man being an AT that doesn't magically give them all the resources to make a fighter, since, you know, ASSIST TROPHIES HAVE A LOT LESS WORK PUT INTO THEM.

Especially considering Min Min was really hard to make.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why do you keep insisting he’d still use his AT animations?

He's never said that. He just said that a fighter takes more resources than an AT to make (extra details on the design, more moves, making things more fluid, balancing the gameplay, making the AI not trash, etc.)

And as a result, it would be either Spring Man or Plant, not both.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Why do you keep insisting he’d still use his AT animations?

How did you assume that because I know ATs have 10x less work put into them than fighters, they'd make a Spring Man fighter be literally the AT without a much bigger moveset, higher quality model etc.?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Especially considering Min Min was really hard to make.

Come on man Sakurai's tweet that said Min Min took a lot of time outright said it was because of balancing issues

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well in that case, the evidence of a Rhythm Heaven Character being planned simply is fake despite literally being datamined as Sakurai never addressed that. Not to mention Sakurai never said why Plant was DLC either as he simply explained the addition. It works both ways, but one side has a surprising amount of potential evidence to back the claim up while the other doesn't

Now you're just taking my words too literally to make me sound like an ignorant jerk, Gwen.

Rhythm Heaven is backed up by datamines, so we don't need Sakurai's word to connects the dots between the real Gematsu leaks and the fact that there are files belonging to the series that were left unused in Smash 4.

Plant being a base game character delayed to being the early purchase bonus is a theory that is 100% gut feelings because there's no real evidence that points it any direction, it's just people thinking some stuff here and there is weird. If he truly were a base game character and they didn't want their work to be wasted, Sakurai has shown in the past that he's fine with delaying a game even for just a single character

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I don't know why but I'm growing fairly confident for next week regarding FP7 (Technically speaking the week after if we get an announcement of Sakurai presents on the 18th airing on the 20th). The reason for this is due to the week after wanting to focus its attention more on the BotW prequel.

Otherwise, if we don't get anything at that point I'm not expecting it until October.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

a Piranha Plant spirit was conspicuously absent in the base game (Nipper enhanced into Petey Piranha)

Nipper would still enhance into Petey even if Plant was base game, so that argument is honestly pointless in trying to say Plant was a delayed base game character.

That argument would only make sense if you used it to justify Plant not being a base game concept, but rather something that was thought of later in development, hence making him an early purchase bonus.

Maybe it could mean that they were worked on alongside the base game, but either way, all of that stands out as being pretty unusual.

That is exactly what I'm thinking. They were always meant to be an early purchase bonus, imo, but being an early purchase means you actually have to show something about that bonus to gauge interest on it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How did you assume that because I know ATs have 10x less work put into them than fighters, they'd make a Spring Man fighter be literally the AT without a much bigger moveset, higher quality model etc.?

He's saying Spring Man would be able to coexist. With PLANT. He's wrong either way as Spring Man was never on the table to begin with but you're completely missing the point

Now you're just taking my words too literally to make me sound like an ignorant jerk, Gwen.

Rhythm Heaven is backed up by datamines, so we don't need Sakurai's word to connects the dots between the real Gematsu leaks and the fact that there are files belonging to the series that were left unused in Smash 4.

Plant being a base game character delayed to being the early purchase bonus is a theory that is 100% gut feelings because there's no real evidence that points it any direction. If he truly were a base game character and they didn't want their work to be wasted, Sakurai has shown in the past that he's fine with delaying a game even for just a single character

Sonic was the biggest Smash request period and was from a game that could not support DLC. The datamining of Smash's base game showed us Plant's Guidance too alongside the DLC placeholder, placeholders for DLC is a common tactic in game development too, so why was Plant unique in that regard? Not to mention Plant was not finished until post release. Do you know how I know this? Because Plant wasn't day 1 DLC, which again, would suggest they planned Plant as DLC, only started working on them during late development when they knew who was going to be in the fighter pass and decided Plant would be the only DLC character with a Guidance for some reason. I don't even get the hostility as I said this as neutral as possible, there's more evidence in favour of Plant being for base than against it

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Still waiting on that RH character planned for 4

Any day now...

Still waiting on Dixie Kong and Tetra/Toon Zelda planned for Brawl.

Any day now...

 

[I.D.]

The official site acknowledges literally every Mario RPG other than SMRPG lmao

 

[RileyXY1]

The official site acknowledges literally every Mario RPG other than SMRPG lmao

That makes Geno even more unlikely, at least for me anyways.

 

[Megadoomer]

The official site acknowledges literally every Mario RPG other than SMRPG lmao

It also didn't acknowledge Mario + Rabbids (so it could be a legal issue, since Mario RPG's a Square-Enix game and Mario + Rabbids is a Ubisoft game) or the original Mario Bros. or Donkey Kong (so it's not a complete list by any means).

 

[Perkilator]

He's saying Spring Man would be able to coexist. With PLANT. He's wrong either way as Spring Man was never on the table to begin with but you're completely missing the point

I mean...if he WAS on the table. I’m not insisting he DEFINITELY was.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

That makes Geno even more unlikely, at least for me anyways.

Nah... The site just doesn't seem to show any third party developed games in general

No SMRPG, no Sports Mix, no Mario + Rabbids, not even DDR Mario Mix

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Plant being a base game character delayed to being the early purchase bonus is a theory that is 100% gut feelings because there's no real evidence that points it any direction, it's just people thinking some stuff here and there is weird. If he truly were a base game character and they didn't want their work to be wasted, Sakurai has shown in the past that he's fine with delaying a game even for just a single character

Somehow I doubt a huge character like Sonic would be given the same time management as a generic enemy. Especially since we know there are 7 other characters who did not get such treatment in that game alone.

EDIT: Heck, freaking Bowser didn't get this in the first game.

 

[MooMew64]

That makes Geno even more unlikely, at least for me anyways.

Nah, it doesn't affect him at all TBH. Geno's win condition is if Nintendo cares about his vocal online support at all over other SE options, which has yet to be determined. If he gets in, it's entirely due to pure fan demand IMO.

Either way, I'm more disappointed they did wrong by Mario Sports Mix.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sonic was the biggest Smash request period and was from a game that could not support DLC. The datamining of Smash's base game showed us Plant's Guidance too alongside the DLC placeholder, placeholders for DLC is a common tactic in game development too, so why was Plant unique in that regard? Not to mention Plant was not finished until post release. Do you know how I know this? Because Plant wasn't day 1 DLC, which again, would suggest they planned Plant as DLC, only started working on them during late development when they knew who was going to be in the fighter pass and decided Plant would be the only DLC character with a Guidance for some reason. I don't even get the hostility as I said this as neutral as possible, there's more evidence in favour of Plant being for base than against it

Let's pile up the evidence on my side, shall we?

CPSIA amiibo codes for base game characters are grouped by franchise. For example, Pichu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Pokemon Trainer and Incineroar are all grouped together despite having different release announcements. Same applies for Ridley and Dark Samus. However, Plant is the sole exception to this, being after every other base game newcomer rather than being grouped after Daisy, who was the very first Ultimate amiibo code-wise. Why would Plant be this weird exception to an otherwise 100% consistent pattern if he was a base game concept?

Hell, the very idea that Sakurai charges for Plant is also another good argument because charging us for something that should've been a base game character is just incredibly scummy and very unlike how Sakurai tried so hard to please everyone with the sheer insanity that is Ultimate's roster. If he was a base game character that didn't make it to release, he'd be either free DLC or completely scrapped.

Nipper Plant evolving into Petey also makes no freaking sense. What makes more sense is Piranha Plant evolving into him, so this tells me they changed a specific spirit during development to make Plant a fighter, and unless it's clones, characters in a Smash roster always follows the original plan, so this tells me Plant was thought of much later in development (specifically when Spirits were being implimented and tested). The very idea that Sakurai thought of Plant during development rather than being on the initial plan like any non-clone of any Smash game ever doesn't mean he was a base game concept at all.

All this tells me is that he was thought of as an early purchase bonus later in development rather than being on Sakurai's mind since December 2015. Especially the fact that the amiibo isn't grouped with Daisy like any other franchise that added more than one amiibo for Ultimate, that's just a dead giveaway that he was always meant to be DLC.