Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Schnee117]

Hell, the very idea that Sakurai charges for Plant is also another good argument because charging us for something that should've been a base game character is just incredibly scummy and very unlike how Sakurai tried so hard to please everyone with the sheer insanity that is Ultimate's roster. If he was a base game character that didn't make it to release, he'd be either free DLC or completely scrapped.

Sakurai also has to bend to the whims of Nintendo, Plant also actually was free for a time so clearly the two came to a compromise.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Either way, I'm more disappointed they did wrong by Mario Sports Mix.

This is Black Mage erasure and I won't stand for it.

 

[Deleted member]

This is Black Mage erasure and I won't stand for it.

Black Mages Matter!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sakurai also has to bend to the whims of Nintendo, Plant also actually was free for a time so clearly the two came to a compromise.

Sounds like something that'd make sense... but like, I had two other arguments. Trying to prove me wrong through singling out only one of them isn't really countering my point as a whole. It's just more proof of Smash fans being too laser-focused to see the bigger wholes of things.

 

[PLANTMAN]

The official site acknowledges literally every Mario RPG other than SMRPG lmao

Funny

did laugh

I guess it’s because of square owning the rights

That makes Geno even more unlikely, at least for me anyways.

No it Doesn't

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Come on man Sakurai's tweet that said Min Min took a lot of time outright said it was because of balancing issues

And?

Balancing a character is still making a character.

 

[Schnee117]

Sounds like something that'd make sense... but like, I had two other arguments. Trying to prove me wrong through singling out only one of them isn't really countering my point as a whole. It's just more proof of Smash fans being too laser-focused to see the bigger wholes of things.

I'm not interested in addressing those other points, I'm also not obliged to respond to everything in a post thank you.

 

[Guynamednelson]

No it Doesn't

Don't bother arguing with Doubtbot 3000 on how likely a character is. Wherever it is, it must also doubt.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm not interested in addressing those other points, I'm also not obliged to respond to everything in a post thank you.

That is fair enough, but ignoring them entirely doesn't mean they don't exist either. Don't reply to them if you want, but don't deny them just to prove yourself right either.

And besides, why would Nintendo put Sakurai at gunpoint to charge for a ****ing Piranha Plant, but then entire modes such as Stage Builder and Home-Run Constest and the recent Small Battlefield stage, which were released long after Plant, get given away to all for free?

If you make the argument that those modes and stages were base game ideas, then you're literally countering the argument you've made for Plant.

And giving away characters for free is definitely not new to Nintendo games, just look at Mario Tennis Aces.

 

[Wunderwaft]

You know, for a franchise as well known as Prince of Persia, I know nearly nothing about him. I know you've expressed wanting him in Smash before, but outside of acrobatics, a water sword and reversing time, what would he bring to the table moveset wise?

The prince is a sword fighter who fights with a dagger and can dual wield scimitars. He's capable of reversing time to a certain point. My idea on how to execute this in smash is to make it his up b recovery move, however the prince can only travel backwards in time depending on how many sands of time he has, it's a resource he has in the games that restricts how far he can go back and if it runs out then he can't time travel. He can regain the sands as the battle goes on and he inflicts and receives damage. I also believe the sands of time shouldn't put the prince in freefall, instead he has the opportunity to double jump from his reversed time or strike. If the prince returns back in time to a point where the opponent is exactly in then it would deal massive damage to the opponent, making his time manipulation not just a defensive option but also an offensive option, a high risk but high reward move.

The acrobatics he has would make his aerial acceleration very high among the cast which enables him to move faster in the air, likewise his jumps would be higher than average and he is able to wall jump.

His side special would be his dual wielding scimitar combo. It's similair to Marth's dancing blade where the prince has many options to strike up or down or forward. It seems simple, but that's because I have an idea to incorporate it with the down special.

The down special would be the prince's dark prince transformation. For the sake of balance this transformation would rely on the sands of time as well, if the sands run out then the transformation runs out. In compensation the dark prince transformation would allow him to deal more damage in his normals and aerials. The main change from this is that the side special would change from the dual scimitars to the daggertail chain whip, a much far reaching attack than the dual scimitars. If you played the God of War games then it's a bit similair to Kratos' chains. The Dark Prince transformation may be strong, but it uses the sands of time as resources which means if it runs out then recovering will be difficult, knowing when to use the transformation and when to turn it off will be important to take care of your sand.

For the neutral special we are going to use one of the djinn powers. The Prince will use ice blast, a move that creates a wave of ice traveling forward on the ground which damages enemies. The move would be able to carry the opponents with them like Greninja's water shuriken.



I tried my best to give the Prince a faithful moveset that at the same time fits with Smash's mechanics. I hope this helped visualize how the Prince would function in Smash.

 

[SharkLord]

Anything Touhou.

You sure you wanna go there? Because if you do, be warned that I can, I have, and I will write an entire essay on the history, impact, setting, and cast of the entire Touhou Project, accompanied by a metric %$#@ton of songs because just one Touhou song is nowhere near enough.

SharkLord would like to know your location.

You know me too well.

 

[Schnee117]

That is fair enough, but ignoring them entirely doesn't mean they don't exist either. Don't reply to them if you want, but don't deny them just to prove yourself right either.

Why would Nintendo put Sakurai at gunpoint to charge for a ****ing Piranha Plant, but then entire modes such as Stage Builder and Home-Run Constest and the recent Small Battlefield stage, which were released long after Plant, get given away to all for free?

If you make the argument that those modes and stages were base game ideas, then you're literally countering the argument you've made for Plant.

And giving away characters for free is definitely not new to Nintendo games, just look at Mario Tennis Aces.

Show me where I denied them, like, you're being way too defensive over whether or not a Plant was base game.

A character is a much bigger deal than modes that most players won't use and a stage that, whilst it did still take time, is still effectively reusing existing assets. Smash Bros is also a far more lucrative title for both Nintendo and the consumer, there's a far bigger well in Smash than there is a Mario Tennis game, there's also far, far more work that goes into a Smash character than a Mario Tennis one because a Smash character has so much more attributes to work on. There's so many unique interactions to account for whilst Mario Tennis is far more straightforward.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Show me where I denied them, like, you're being way too defensive over whether or not a Plant was base game.

Not replying or even acknowledging them feels like denial to me, honestly.

A character is a much bigger deal than modes that most players won't use and a stage that, whilst it did still take time, is still effectively reusing existing assets. Smash Bros is also a far more lucrative title for both Nintendo and the consumer, there's a far bigger well in Smash than there is a Mario Tennis game, there's also far, far more work that goes into a Smash character than a Mario Tennis one because a Smash character has so much more attributes to work on. There's so many unique interactions to account for whilst Mario Tennis is far more straightforward.

If money was the entire goal, they wouldn't be an early purchase bonus because that's basically giving away millions of dollars.

And there's still my amiibo point, which I think is probably the most solid of the bunch, but you went straight to "Nintendo wants money" as your argument rather than looking at the code itself.

And of couse I'm being "way too defensive". I'm basically the only person on all of Smashboards who thinks Plant wasn't base game (or at least the only vocal one), so I gotta speak a LOT louder to make my point heard since I'm debating against literally everyone.

 

[SNEKeater]

Yeah, what's telling is outside a somewhat enduring fanbase for Groose, it just doesn't feel like Skyward Sword left the same legacy as the other 3D Zelda titles.

-OOT is iconic and still ends up on greatest games ever lists.
-MM's story is seen by many as the best in the series and its unconventional approach has gained more fans in the two decades since its release.
-WW not only had two DS sequels but its art style has become instantly recognizable as a subseries of LoZ itself.
-TP created a beloved character in Midna and is acclaimed for its incredibly effective atmosphere.
-BotW's mega popularity speaks for itself.

Against all that, to some fans SS just seems like a solid but not terribly spectacular experiment. In some ways the Mario Sunshine of the Zelda series; very fun but lacking the oomph that other games in its series possessed.

I mean, as NonSpecificGuy has said, almost every 3D Zelda game was partially hated after it's release. It's very easy to talk about things in retrospective. We should keep in mind that Skyward Sword is newer than all of these games except for Breath of the Wild. You can't really expect a lot of legacy regardless of the quality if the game has just released yesterday, for example.

Also, sorry but I don't really buy your point about Twilight Princess. Not saying that's not true, but if that's enough to consider TP as a Zelda game with a lot of legacy, then I'd say anything can be considered legacy. Some people won't love Midna (me, for example) at all, and while TP has a good atmosphere... I think you can say that for some other Zelda games as well. I don't know, you could change Midna for Fi and instead of the atmosphere you could talk about the motion controls and it would be the same. In fact, the motion controls in SS, despite of not being liked by everyone, seems like enough reason to consider Skyward Sword above Twilight Princess in terms of legacy.

While SS isn't perfect, I find the game a lot more interesting than Wind Waker or Twilight Princess gameplay and dungeon-wise, with some of the best bosses in the series in my opinion. Also, the game has probably the best version of Zelda personality wise, even Link, who's always a silent protagonist, is very expressive here in comparison to other entries. And while WW's artstyle is incredibly charming, Skyward Sword has a fantastic artstyle as well.

 

[Schnee117]

If money was the entire goal, they wouldn't be an early purchase bonus because that's basically giving away millions of dollars.

Yeah this is just gonna go in a circle.
Cool off.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Trying to prove me wrong through singling out only one of them isn't really countering my point as a whole. It's just more proof of Smash fans being too laser-focused to see the bigger wholes of things.

Nah it's just the argument he had an answer for. Not everyone spends 30 minutes trying to cover all bases (and no-one does it against every argument). Since the thread as a collective tends to cover everything, I don't think people going "I have a problem with this point specifically" is really that big of a deal.

Nipper Plant evolving into Petey also makes no freaking sense. What makes more sense is Piranha Plant evolving into him, so this tells me they changed a specific spirit during development to make Plant a fighter, and unless it's clones, characters in a Smash roster always follows the original plan, so this tells me Plant was thought of much later in development (specifically when Spirits were being implimented and tested). The very idea that Sakurai thought of Plant during development rather than being on the initial plan like any non-clone of any Smash game ever doesn't mean he was a base game concept at all.

Why would a Piranha Plant evolve into Peetey? If any scenario were to make sense, it would be a Nipper Spore evolving into Piranha Plant. I don't think it follows that a nonsensical evolution denotes anything about character planning.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

View attachment 285167
You sure you wanna go there? Because if you do, be warned that I can, I have, and I will write an entire essay on the history, impact, setting, and cast of the entire Touhou Project, accompanied by a metric %$#@ton of songs because just one Touhou song is nowhere near enough.

You know me too well.

So I know jacksquat about Touhou, but I'm curious if a character were implemented if "grazing" would somehow be implemented into the moveset. If not as a Witch Time/Revenge counter, then maybe in just the act of dodging or even just moving out of harm's way in time, no staling roll times, all to either boost attacks or heal or something.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

SS

I cannot stop interpreting this as Sticker Star.

The Legend of Zelda: Sticker Star. Now that's a cursed game concept.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Phoenix Wright has a nice chance, but we will see.

I would also like Reimu in Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nah it's just the argument he had an answer for. Not everyone spends 30 minutes trying to cover all bases (and no-one does it against every argument). Since the thread as a collective tends to cover everything, I don't think people going "I have a problem with this point specifically" is really that big of a deal.

Fair enough, though he already said that lol.

Why would a Piranha Plant evolve into Peetey? If any scenario were to make sense, it would be a Nipper Spore evolving into Piranha Plant. I don't think it follows that a nonsensical evolution denotes anything about character planning.

I guess that's fair enough too, but there's also been depictions of certain Piranha Plants being born from eggs, including the three Petey Piranha expys from Galaxy; Dino, Fiery Dino and Peewee.

I won't say that absolutely means Petey is born from an egg, but the possibility is there.

And Nipper Plants the only Piranha Plant species explicitely shown to be born from spores too, which makes things even more confusing.

So I know jacksquat about Touhou, but I'm curious if a character were implemented if "grazing" would somehow be implemented into the moveset. If not as a Witch Time/Revenge counter, then maybe in just the act of dodging or even just moving out of harm's way in time, no staling roll times, all to either boost attacks or heal or something.

Phantom hits would finally matter.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So I know jacksquat about Touhou, but I'm curious if a character were implemented if "grazing" would somehow be implemented into the moveset. If not as a Witch Time/Revenge counter, then maybe in just the act of dodging or even just moving out of harm's way in time, no staling roll times, all to either boost attacks or heal or something.

Removing roll staling is probably not a great idea. It could make the character even more annoyingly defensive than she'd probably already be. Otherwise I think it might be a neat idea. If she dodge rolls, air dodges, or spot dodges a projectile, she could...erm. Was it bombs that grazing built?

Phantom hits would finally matter.

Reimu gets phantom footstooled

"You fool. You've activated my trap card!"

 

[Curious Villager]

Mostly because it has a unique Palutena's Guidance when compared to the other DLC characters using the generic "intruder from another dimension one".

It is the only DLC character that has a unique Palutena's Guidance conversation. All of the Fighter Pass characters just use the generic "intruder from another dimension" one that was used for Smash 4's DLC characters.

Aren't voice acting work usually done at the tail end of development? Especially for something as minor as an optional easter egg?
I forgot when the Plant was revealed up to the game's release but since they had a head start on it, it could very well have been that they decided to record a guidance for it anyway while it was nearly done..

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah this is just gonna go in a circle.
Cool off.

In other words, you have no idea how to continue this, yet still believe to be right.

 

[Deleted member]

Mostly because it has a unique Palutena's Guidance when compared to the other DLC characters using the generic "intruder from another dimension one".

How come we didn't get Palutena's conversation for the DLC? Licensing issues, or did they just ignore it?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

How come we didn't get Palutena's conversation for the DLC? Licensing issues, or did they just ignore it?

Probably budget issues.

 

[SharkLord]

So I know jacksquat about Touhou, but I'm curious if a character were implemented if "grazing" would somehow be implemented into the moveset. If not as a Witch Time/Revenge counter, then maybe in just the act of dodging or even just moving out of harm's way in time, no staling roll times, all to either boost attacks or heal or something.

We discussed than in her thread, but we decided that making it like the shooters would make her too overly gimmicky. Instead, I just decided the Graze sound effects should play whenever she dodges or triggers a phantom hit, plus having projectile-destroying properties when dashing or dodging like in the actual Touhou fighting games.

It should also be noted that Grazing doesn't actually fill up any meters in Touhou beyond getting you a lot of points. I considered adding a Graze Meter to try and translate that high risk, high reward style gameplay as well as a smaller-than normal hitbox, but I decided they wouldn't gel well with Smash and would be annoying for all parties ivolved.

 

[Schnee117]

How come we didn't get Palutena's conversation for the DLC? Licensing issues, or did they just ignore it?

It's not really worth getting a few VAs back in just for a few lines plus any scheduling conflicts that might occur.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean, as NonSpecificGuy has said, almost every 3D Zelda game was partially hated after it's release. It's very easy to talk about things in retrospective. We should keep in mind that Skyward Sword is newer than all of these games except for Breath of the Wild. You can't really expect a lot of legacy regardless of the quality if the game has just released yesterday, for example.

Also, sorry but I don't really buy your point about Twilight Princess. Not saying that's not true, but if that's enough to consider TP as a Zelda game with a lot of legacy, then I'd say anything can be considered legacy. Some people won't love Midna (me, for example) at all, and while TP has a good atmosphere... I think you can say that for some other Zelda games as well. I don't know, you could change Midna for Fi and instead of the atmosphere you could talk about the motion controls and it would be the same. In fact, the motion controls in SS, despite of not being liked by everyone, seems like enough reason to consider Skyward Sword above Twilight Princess in terms of legacy.

I mean it has been nine years since Skyward Sword and while that may be too small a time period to really apply a historical reassessment of it, I would say that nine years after their releases, it did feel like opinions had already shifted more about Majora's Mask and Wind Waker respectively than they have with SS.

I would agree that Twilight Princess doesn't really have quite the same impact as the other three (OOT, MM, WW). However its particular issues (too similar to Ocarina, a divisive aesthetic, too empty overworld) don't feel like the dominate the talk of it to the same degree that Skyward Sword's particular idiosyncrasies (excessive linearity, motion control dependent, inconsistent implementation of item/weapon mechanics) do. The latter is a great game, but its one that feels either left out of the conversation at times or often defined (fairly or not) by its flaws in discussion.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

How come we didn't get Palutena's conversation for the DLC? Licensing issues, or did they just ignore it?

It's a logistics/cost issue. Likely mostly the former though. It's harder to bring back people you just hired to record for you sense they could be off on other projects.

It's why BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle had a leak that just consisted of the announcer stating the names of a ton of characters that weren't in or even planned to be in the game. I think one of the MvC games had something similar with character callouts.

It should also be noted that Grazing doesn't actually fill up any meters in Touhou beyond getting you a lot of points. I considered adding a Graze Meter to try and translate that high risk, high reward style gameplay as well as a smaller-than normal hitbox, but I decided they wouldn't gel well with Smash and would be annoying for all parties ivolved.

But points get you bombs don't it? Well that and lives, but that's really not applicable here.
EDIT: I should mention that I'm just spinning my own gears here. I'm not saying that your ideas are dumb or anything.


Ooh! I just realized something. Reimu's Final Smash could just be one of her boss Spell Cards.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Hmm...
https://mynintendonews.com/2020/09/...-themed-nintendo-switch-launching-next-month/

 

[DanganZilla5]

It's story time! Another Smash dream I had.

Mudkip and Frank West were announced. Crash Bandicoot was also announced, but he is not a part of the fighters pass. Instead, he gets his own set of DLC platforming levels. So pretty much a Crash game inside a Smash game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It's story time! Another Smash dream I had.

Mudkip and Frank West were announced. Crash Bandicoot was also announced, but he is not a part of the fighters pass. Instead, he gets his own set of DLC platforming levels. So pretty much a Crash game inside a Smash game.

Not gonna lie. I think Frank West would be really funny to see in Smash.

 

[SharkLord]

But points get you bombs don't it? Well that and lives, but that's really not applicable here.
EDIT: I should mention that I'm just spinning my own gears here. I'm not saying that your ideas are dumb or anything.


Ooh! I just realized something. Reimu's Final Smash could just be one of her boss Spell Cards.

Not really, actually. At least, not in some games. Bombs are either obtained from Bomb Pieces or Power, depending on the game, while Lives are gained from Life Pieces. We could mash them together for the sake of simplicity, but again, that would make Reimu really irritating to play as or against.

It should also be noted that the Bombs are actually considered Spell Cards as well, just on the player's side. In the fighters, Bombs like Fantasy Seal are treated just like any other Spell Card.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's story time! Another Smash dream I had.

Mudkip and Frank West were announced. Crash Bandicoot was also announced, but he is not a part of the fighters pass. Instead, he gets his own set of DLC platforming levels. So pretty much a Crash game inside a Smash game.

I love everything about this. lol


Also Mudkip is best character. None can convince me otherwise.

Not gonna lie. I think Frank West would be really funny to see in Smash.

Considering he's only character who had any sort of fun dynamic with literally anyone in MvCI's story. I second this.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Every one of my Smash dreams has involved Elma’s character trailer lmao or her in gameplay using Overdrive

I just hope it comes true

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The only Smash dream I've had was about Min Min's reveal, and she looked very different.

 

[TwiceEXE]

I dreamed Tubba Blubba (Paper Mario) was FP7 and it made most everyone angry or disappointed. He looked pretty fun to play tho.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Months before the ARMS reveal, I actually had a dream regarding Min Min in Smash. I was so disappointed waking up knowing it was never gonna happenr. Or so I thought lol

Back in the 4 days I also dreamt Phosphora of all Kid Icarus characters got in. This was shortly after Palutena, so I'm assuming that's what really got the ball rolling in my head.

 

[SKX31]

Hmm...
https://mynintendonews.com/2020/09/...-themed-nintendo-switch-launching-next-month/

[Should note that Fortnite's done a Switch bundle in South Korea in the past, so don't read too much into this please.]

Probably budget issues.

It's a logistics/cost issue. Likely mostly the former though. It's harder to bring back people you just hired to record for you sense they could be off on other projects.

Nintendo's not the type of company to keep a steady dev budget for a long time either. It's night and day compared to companies like Valve, who keep entire dev teams working on a single game for a very long time - even postrelease. And they have experience with that starting with CS 1.6 / Steam.

Nintendo's general business culture is far less interested in that because:

Nintendo is a Japanese toy company founded in 1889. For all the changes it has made, for all the revolutions it personally sparked in gaming, Nintendo’s spirit remains unchanged. Nintendo is a company that sells toys and games and that’s all it wants to be. It has no interest in inventing the digital basketball, copyrighting the digital hoop, creating the digital NBA and turning Hungrybox into the digital LeBron James. Many executives in Nintendo could not imagine that world, let alone create it.

Don’t assume that Nintendo needs to invent the digital basketball either. They do better than most every gaming company in the world by selling exciting new versions of the same toy – Mario, Legend of Zelda, Animal Crossing. Their dedication to raw entertainment value and their vision as the world’s best toy people make many of their games insanely fun and transformational. After all, their Game and Watch essentially pioneered handheld gaming.

The article is about Nintendo's general disinterest towards eSports, but it's applicable towards the live service area / supporting games over the long term too. When a Nintendo game's released, they've historically seen it as a finished product. One can still see that with the "lesser budget" thing - Valve or other companies that focus on supporting games over the long term have not lowered the budget unless there's a noticeable decline. Or the game flops (Artifact).

Nintendo has slowly gone in the other direction - with more focus on DLC and keeping a game going in the long term (Splatoon), but that's also Nintendo's general business culture seeing DLC / long term support as a way to market the product first and foremost.

In an interview with Red Bull, Nick Hitzel, a Splatoon player and commentator said, “We’re actually a little afraid of Nintendo’s involvement since we don’t know what that means. Whenever they do help, it feels like they’re just taking advantage of a marketing opportunity.”

 

[Lamperouge]

I wish I could say that I've dreamt of Rex being in Smash but it was actually Elma.