Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wouldn't Bass also potentially be one, with his unique gimmick being the 8 Way Shooting? and instead of Sliding, he Dashes and such

After learning that Ken really is only an Echo Fighter because they said so (which means he required all of the work that Semi-Clones like Young Link and Isabelle did) it seems like the only mechanical changes an Echo Fighter can have really are just property based, with one single move alongside it. Bass would have to be given his buster from Mega Man 7, Charge Kick (the actually weaponized version of the slide), and Bass Boost instead of Rush Coil (his only acutal moveset change). So, yes, but he wouldn't have the Bass Buster.

EDIT: Also, he'd probably look weird but that's not really a point against him.

-Sakurai knows the way. 3rd party is a different area than with Nintendo characters. Shadow is also a different case from all the other echoes. He can Legitimately get in on his own merit because he has the Fan Popularity (in Smash and in Sonic), He's Iconic, Relevant, and he has Enough Material to not only separate himself from Sonic, but also from the rest of the cast in an unique way

I'd argue most of the Echo Fighters have most of these qualities as well.

-Plus I'm not sure Sega would be down for the idea. say what you want about Shadow playing the same in some Sonic games, but Sonic Similarities affect all characters in the Series (Sonic rivals 1 and 2 is Perfect example). In a Smash Translation, that sort of thing would not fly

Not all of them. Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow are similar enough that they'd have to take decently heavy cues from Sonic in order to be done justice (the former are like the Luigi to Sonic's Mario, and the latter is his foil), but beyond that have a style that isn't as related to Sonic.

-I guess there's also the worry that they may just be too strict with Shadow. I really hope this is not the case. I know with the IDW Comics I believe Shadow has the most mandates of the Sonic characters in the comics. Sonic Boom the Cartoon also only used him for 2 Episodes, this could have been a reason, though it also just could be on the writers themselves wanting to use him Sparingly. I think because Sakurai has had Sonic content for 3 games now and treated him well (disregarding the no Remixes, and TWO Spindashes), I don't think Sega would be that strict. yes

This is a point against Shadow in general, not just as an Echo Fighter. I'm also not entirely certain it would effect much considering that Shadow has been in the game just fine since Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

[SonicMario]

Both Ken and Richter I think partly came about because both Street Fighter and Castlevania (Though Richter in particular may have possibly been among the top Castlevania characters in the ballot) are among some of Sakurai's favorite franchises while others like Sonic and Mega Man, while I'm sure he enjoys those franchises in some fashion and understood why they in particular were heavily requested prior to their inclusions. Just weren't. Though the whole thing surrounding echo fighters is so weird because when thy were announced it was thought there would be many new echoes to sort of disguise the fact they couldn't put too many actual unique newcomers. But in the end, we only got four more on top of the 2 that were retroactive echoes and no sign that they will be a part of DLC ever. They way they were marketed and the fact they even got an entire menu option whether to have them in their own seperate roster slot or put in the corner they echo off from it probably seemed like we'd at least get like 8.

 

[zumaddy]

Shadow not being an echo of Sonic confuses me to this day

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ultimately it'd be up to Nintendo & Square, and Smash would be a much bigger commitment than a Fall Guys costume, but at least it's reassuring to know Yoko Taro isn't stingy with 2B lol

Spoiler: Wait. People are gonna be able to dress up their bean shaped character with this dress?

And like, a wig too? I can't even.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

pic.twitter.com/QO0i1QkGJg

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) August 25, 2020

haha beeg sword go turns u into metal

...i should prob get some heckin sleep

 

[SharkLord]

Shadow's interesting because he could easily be both an Echo or a unique fighter depending on how you look at it. In some games like SA2 and Forces, he's pretty much a Sonic carbon copy, but in other titles like '06 and Battle, he's very unique, only sharing a couple moves with Sonic, if any at all.

 

[Schnee117]

The first rule of Yoko Taro is that Yoko Taro does whatever the **** Yoko Taro wants.
The second rule is to give him money.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Shadow's interesting because he could easily be both an Echo or a unique fighter depending on how you look at it. In some games like SA2 and Forces, he's pretty much a Sonic carbon copy, but in other titles like '06 and Battle, he's very unique, only sharing a couple moves with Sonic, if any at all.

So could Dark Samus though.

And Dark Pit.

Chrom and Lucina too if you were creative enough.

Richter's probably the only one who isn't since his unique qualities are mixed in with Simon's in order to flesh out the moveset.

EDIT: Oh, and Daisy because she has the same problems as Waluigi. She still has enough standout qualities to make a semi-clone moveset though.

 

[cosmicB]

Level 5 being absent from anything base game or post-game spirits is absolutely baffling. This is a company that Reggie and Bill literally did a commercial for.

Like that would lead me to believe they're getting something, but a full pass also came and went with absolutely nothing. I wonder if relations just broke down.

 

[SharkLord]

So could Dark Samus though.

And Dark Pit.

Chrom and Lucina too if you were creative enough.

Richter's probably the only one who isn't since his unique qualities are mixed in with Simon's in order to flesh out the moveset.

To be fair, DS and DP are both clones of their original counterpart, though Dark Samus is less direct than Dark Pit.

 

[zumaddy]

No one talks about Dark Cloud anymore but that was my first game from them. It came on one of those old PS2 demo disks

 

[7NATOR]

So could Dark Samus though.

And Dark Pit.

Chrom and Lucina too if you were creative enough.

Richter's probably the only one who isn't since his unique qualities are mixed in with Simon's in order to flesh out the moveset.

EDIT: Oh, and Daisy because she has the same problems as Waluigi. She still has enough standout qualities to make a semi-clone moveset though.

Well with Chrom, Sakurai wasn't creative enough since he stated that Chrom just turned out to be a mix of Marth and Ike. Lucina uses his Fighting style so that might apply to her. Project X Zone does give them cool movesets, but Sakurai i guess did not feel like it

Dark Pit is weird. With all the weapons there's definitely enough stuff, but in terms of abilities Exclusive to him, I don't thin khe has that much. He should have used the Staff more often though

Dark Samus is completely true, but keep in mind she hasn't been relevant since the late 2000's and it's likely to stay that way, along with Ridley alsways being so above her in requests I would say

Daisy, well....

 

[Rie Sonomura]

No one talks about Dark Cloud anymore but that was my first game from them. It came on one of those old PS2 demo disks

I got that game as a Christmas present from a family member back in I think 2001!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

To be fair, DS and DP are both clones of their original counterpart, though Dark Samus is less direct than Dark Pit.

Well with Chrom, Sakurai wasn't creative enough since he stated that Chrom just turned out to be a mix of Marth and Ike. Lucina uses his Fighting style so that might apply to her. Project X Zone does give them cool movesets, but Sakurai i guess did not feel like it

Dark Pit is weird. With all the weapons there's definitely enough stuff, but in terms of abilities Exclusive to him, I don't thin khe has that much. He should have used the Staff more often though

Dark Samus is completely true, but keep in mind she hasn't been relevant since the late 2000's and it's likely to stay that way, along with Ridley alsways being so above her in requests I would say

Daisy, well....

I know why they aren't full characters, I'm just saying that, like Shadow, the majority of Echo Fighters also have the moveset potential to be full characters.

 

[7NATOR]

I know why they aren't full characters, I'm just saying that, like Shadow, the majority of Echo Fighters also have the moveset potential for be full characters.

Ahhhh. well yes that is true

Level 5 being absent from anything base game or post-game spirits is absolutely baffling. This is a company that Reggie and Bill literally did a commercial for.

Like that would lead me to believe they're getting something, but a full pass also came and went with absolutely nothing. I wonder if relations just broke down.

Nah I don't think that's it

That is something I actually wonder about, Do you think certain companies might have gotten something like Mii Costumes or Spirits if there was only 1 pass, but because there was an Extra Fighter Pass ordered, they got upgraded to Playable Status? It's something to consider

 

[Icedragonadam]

I know Level-5 was in financial trouble, even before the 2nd pass was decided upon. And I think they still are.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I know Level-5 was in financial trouble, even before the 2nd pass was decided upon. And I think they still are.

Wouldn't that make them more willing to allow a fighter though?

EDIT: Or anything else for that matter?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hero being the other exception...kind of. We at least thought the series was likely. Which is more than you can usually say.

The only reason DQ content was correctly predicted was because we found Brave in the files and Brave was such an obvious DQ reference, barely anyone considered it prior.

Anyway I see Yoko Taro talk, put him im the game, for his neutral special, he grabs a shirt and rolls around on the ground yelling "NIER AUTOMATA T SHIRT! NIER AUTOMATA T SHIRT! NIER AUTOMATA T SHIRT! **** SQUARE ENIX!"

 

[SharkLord]

The only reason DQ content was correctly predicted was because we found Brave in the files and Brave was such an obvious DQ reference, barely anyone considered it prior.

Anyway I see Yoko Taro talk, put him im the game, for his neutral special, he grabs a shirt and rolls around on the ground yelling "NIER AUTOMATA T SHIRT! NIER AUTOMATA T SHIRT! NIER AUTOMATA T SHIRT! **** SQUARE ENIX!"

Personally, I think that looks more like a down smash.

 

[7NATOR]

Lowkey, do you guys ever think Sakurai has worked on a character that he personally hasn't liked?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Quick question,

Why do you guys believe that Sakurai hasn't double dipped with no brainer 3rd party franchises like Sonic and Mega Man?

It's odd because Sega and Capcom clearly love participating in Smash Bros, so I don't believe it's them that are rejecting new characters. Sega has allowed both Sonic and Bayonetta to have lots of representation, and same with Capcom regarding Mega Man and Street Fighter.

It's odd that the companies' two biggest franchises, some of the most iconic, legendary series of all time, only gets one rep and then zip, nada.

The only real reason I can think of is because Sakurai wants to ensure the majority of the characters are Nintendo characters, so they are prioritized in getting the most playable character representation... But isn't it weird that ****ing EarthBound gets 2 reps but Sonic and Mega Man can't?!?!

It’s more of a matter of why would they double dip? Them putting in their own characters, like “****ing 2 Earthbound reps” as you so elegantly pointed out, makes sense to draw more attention to their properties. It’s easier to get the license, there’s almost 0 chance these characters will have issues with licensing, and developer input is far easier within a companies own channels.

Now picture Sakurai. This is a man who strives to make Smash bigger and bigger with each new addition. If he was going to Capcom why would he go to get Mega Man X or Zero instead of someone like Dante or Phoenix whom will greatly expand the rosters uniqueness? Mega Man fans are already pleased by the fact that Mega Man is in at all and hail Nintendo as the reason Mega Man is doing better after YEARS of mistreatment.

Alright, now take Nintendo. Nintendo is a company, they want to maximize as much profit as they possibly can. They go over to Sega and they look at their franchises. Well no need to add another Sonic character because Sonic fans are already playing Smash. So their next best bet would be to go for one of Sega’s other big franchises. Like Puyo Puyo or Yakuza. That pulls in fans of said franchise and maximizes sales.

The logic is that if they’re going to get a Sega, or Capcom, or Square, or Namco character the best bet to both ensure a character is unique and is also exciting for new and existing players is to aim for new franchises. Does Tails make a more surprising and interesting candidate than Arle or Kiryu? Is Zero more of a crowd pleaser than Dante or Phoenix? Would Sephiroth be as well received as someone like 2B, Geno, or Lara?

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Lowkey, do you guys ever think Sakurai has worked on a character that he personally hasn't liked?

no there wasn't a character he worked on that he personally did not like(yet or right now).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Lowkey, do you guys ever think Sakurai has worked on a character that he personally hasn't liked?

There's a lot of 'em so probably.

 

[7NATOR]

It’s more of a matter of why would they double dip? Them putting in their own characters, like “****ing 2 Earthbound reps” as you so elegantly pointed out, makes sense to draw more attention to their properties. It’s easier to get the license, there’s almost 0 chance these characters will have issues with licensing, and developer input is far easier within a companies own channels.

Now picture Sakurai. This is a man who strives to make Smash bigger and bigger with each new addition. If he was going to Capcom why would he go to get Mega Man X or Zero instead of someone like Dante or Phoenix whom will greatly expand the rosters uniqueness? Mega Man fans are already pleased by the fact that Mega Man is in at all and hail Nintendo as the reason Mega Man is doing better after YEARS of mistreatment.

Alright, now take Nintendo. Nintendo is a company, they want to maximize as much profit as they possibly can. They go over to Sega and they look at their franchises. Well no need to add another Sonic character because Sonic fans are already playing Smash. So their next best bet would be to go for one of Sega’s other big franchises. Like Puyo Puyo or Yakuza. That pulls in fans of said franchise and maximizes sales.

The logic is that if they’re going to get a Sega, or Capcom, or Square, or Namco character the best bet to both ensure a character is unique and is also exciting for new and existing players is to aim for new franchises. Does Tails make a more surprising and interesting candidate than Arle or Kiryu? Is Zero more of a crowd pleaser than Dante or Phoenix? Would Sephiroth be as well received as someone like 2B, Geno, or Lara?

What type of Bull is this though. Look if Geno is Eligible, then Another Sonic character is Eligible. that's just Facts

Geno is another Mario Character, he's asscioated with Mario. if your logic is that people are satisfied with Sonic and that's a reason not to go for another Sonic character, I don't see how Geno would bring in new people. the people that want Geno are already playing Smash.

Noo I can't just let them win like this. People can want Geno, but they can't just bend the rules. hell even I fell for it. I see them, they like "Why would Shadow and Metal ever be added in" and then Geno is the Holy Grail. It just doesn't work like that my guy. Geno is cool, but he isn't the Ultimate character that can just bypass every easily.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

What type of Bull is this though. Look if Geno is Eligible, then Another Sonic character is Eligible. that's just Facts

Geno is another Mario Character, he's asscioated with Mario. if your logic is that people are satisfied with Sonic and that's a reason not to go for another Sonic character, I don't see how Geno would bring in new people. the people that want Geno are already playing Smash.

Noo I can't just let them win like this. People can want Geno, but they can't just bend the rules. hell even I fell for it. I see them, they like "Why would Shadow and Metal ever be added in" and then Geno is the Holy Grail. It just doesn't work like that my guy. Geno is cool, but he isn't the Ultimate character that can just bypass every easily.

I never said any of these characters weren’t eligible. I never said that. i was answering the question with my honest answer. I was pointing out the fact that a lot of the reason people believe we’re not getting a second character is because of these things.

All things aside if you really want to take that one character out of there then by all means go for it, I was just pointing out why I felt most people thought a second rep from any of the already represented 3rd party franchises didn't seem likely. Geno is an INCREDIBLY popular as it stands. Does that mean I find him likely. No not at all, I’m pretty pessimistic at his chances actually but at the very least his popularity is something he has over the characters I was referring to.

And I barely even touched on Sonic mostly only using him as an example just as I used Mega Man, I wasn’t trying to ruffle your feathers. By all means support who you want to support but you don’t have to be so defensive over it. Speculation is all in good fun.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Personally, I think that looks more like a down smash.

Ok but considering the move's source material, it needs it's own voice clips and those tend to be given to special moves instead of smashes.

The source material, with a swear so you've been warned

 

[Diddy Kong]

Basically Sega's doing largely fine and handing their franchises consistently okay, except for ones popular in the West in the 90s; those are either dead, kept alive via fan projects, or getting decent games thanks to hired fans/hired indie studios that actually care about doing something with them.

Can't Nintendo adopt this philosophy? I think franchises as Donkey Kong, Metroid, Star Fox, F-Zero and a couple others would be handled extremely well under hired fans, or indie studios.

 

[Cosmic77]

The more characters a single third-party company gets, the easier it is for me to imagine them double-dipping.

Sooner or later, one of these third-party companies will run out of popular and iconic IPs. When that day comes, I'll question why we aren't adding someone like Tails or Zero. I'd prefer a second character from a really big, staple franchise over a single character from an unrepped, more niche franchise. If Sakurai can't do that, then I would recommend choosing a different third-party company and finding something better. I would never want him to add a fifth or sixth Sega franchise just for the heck of it. Expanding the crossover isn't everything.

 

[7NATOR]

I never said any of these characters weren’t eligible. I never said that. i was answering the question with my honest answer. I was pointing out the fact that a lot of the reason people believe we’re not getting a second character is because of these things.

All things aside if you really want to take that one character out of there then by all means go for it, I was just pointing out why I felt most people thought a second rep from any of the already represented 3rd party franchises didn't seem likely. Geno is an INCREDIBLY popular as it stands. Does that mean I find him likely. No not at all, I’m pretty pessimistic at his chances actually but at the very least his popularity is something he has over the characters I was referring to.

And I barely even touched on Sonic mostly only using him as an example just as I used Mega Man, I wasn’t trying to ruffle your feathers. By all means support who you want to support but you don’t have to be so defensive over it. Speculation is all in good fun.

Yeah you're right. Sorry about that. I don't know, I guess just because other Sonic charctters just get discarded so easily or something...well more Shadow (and Knuckles) then anything. I'm just so hyped, About Shadow potentially having another chance at Playable, and the Smash game is like warfare. when Banjo got in, the Steve fans did not get anything. They straight up lost.

I want the Geno thread to win as much as possible, it's just that sometimes they can ruffle my feathers a little bit, not just related to Sonic, but with other characters. nothing towards them though, no thread is perfect. Yes

 

[SharkLord]

Ok but considering the move's source material, it needs it's own voice clips and those tend to be given to special moves instead of smashes.

The source material, with a swear so you've been warned

...So what you're saying is Byleth doesn't actually belt out "F A I L N A U G H T" whenever they lightly twirl their bow?

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I wanted to thank you all for the replies! You know, the fact that this is a crossover game we're talking about should've made me realize the answer to my own question. I made that post because I want a 2nd rep from Sonic and Mega Man, but yeah, for DLC, Nintendo is going to want to push the boundaries a bit. However, the possibility remains, guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

By the way, there has been debates forever now about whether or not AT and spirits deconfirm a character, but has there ever been discussion about whether or not an item can get a promotion?

Spoiler: big image

 

[Cutie Gwen]

...So what you're saying is Byleth doesn't actually belt out "F A I L N A U G H T" whenever they lightly twirl their bow?

You fool, you absolutely buffoon, I said 'tend', which acknowledges Byleth as an exception as most characters don't get unique voice clips for their normals

 

[Phoenixio]

I kinda wish they had done a tad more with the Echoes. In Melee, it was clear that Dr Mario, Roy and Ganondorf were similar yet different, with their abilities having noticeably different properties. I liked that idea, as it gave a very different feel to very similar movesets. I kind of expected the same for Echoes in Ultimate, but some of them are too similar, like Daisy and Dark Samus, who barely have any difference to their original counterparts. It would have been nice to see some Echoes like that as part of the DLCs as well, akin to a Simon-Richter bundle.

 

[osby]

I'm late to the SEGA discussion but are people really going on with the tired "they only make bad Sonic games" meme?

Out of their franchises that sold over a million units, we only got Sonic, Bayonetta, Persona and Virtua Fighter. Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Valkyria Chronicles and Hatsune Miku Sakura Wars are popular and successful series that Smash can include and that's without going into more cult classics like Jet Set Radio, Shenmue, Streets of Rage, NİGHTS or Crazy Taxi. If we're going with more ATLUS content, Megami Tensei and Etrian Odyssey exist.

Also, not gonna happen but the arcade nerd in me would scream in joy if we get Spirits for Super Monkey Ball or The House of Dead.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm late to the SEGA discussion but are people really going on with the tired "they only make bad Sonic games" meme?

Out of their franchises that sold over a million units, we only got Sonic, Bayonetta, Persona and Virtua Fighter. Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Valkyria Chronicles and Hatsune Miku Sakura Wars are popular and successful series that Smash can include and that's without going into more cult classics like Jet Set Radio, Shenmue, Streets of Rage, NİGHTS or Crazy Taxi. If we're going with more ATLUS content, Megami Tensei and Etrian Odyssey exist.

Also, not gonna happen but the arcade nerd in me would scream in joy if we get Spirits for Super Monkey Ball or The House of Dead.

You get Monkey Ball spirits but they're all crappily drawn in MS Paint to reflect how they chose to remake the game people hated the most instead of the ones people liked

 

[osby]

You get Monkey Ball spirits but they're all crappily drawn in MS Paint to reflect how they chose to remake the game people hated the most instead of the ones people liked

I'm going to streamroll you with a giant, transparent ball.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm going to streamroll you with a giant, transparent ball.

Jokes on you, I can't be flattened as I'm already flat. What are you gonna do now? Grab the tectonic plate with Europe on it and treat it like the Monkey Ball maps to send me flying at terminal velocity?

 

[zumaddy]

Smash fans would probably react not great to it but I'd love a second Bayonetta fighter. Jeanne, Rodin or Balder would be aces.

Also, we need NiGHTS music in. I want the whole damn Christmas acapella theme in no matter how unfitting it is

 

[DarthEnderX]

Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Over the Garden Wall, Infinity Train, Amphibia, The Owl House. All popular animated shows that weren't that ( I've only watched Gravity Falls and Steven Universe of these, but I don't think those other shows fit that category)

And then shows like Regular Show and Gumball that are that...but are still two of the funniest shows on TV.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Smash fans would probably react not great to it but I'd love a second Bayonetta fighter. Jeanne, Rodin or Balder would be aces.

Also, we need NiGHTS music in. I want the whole damn Christmas acapella theme in no matter how unfitting it is

Honestly I made it a rule in my life to not trust anyone who'd be against Rodin, he's cool as **** and he even has a ****in Raging Demon in his list of potential moves