Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Are people already making theories about which character was hinted at because there was a plant behind Sakurai in the video?

I knew it! Fire Piranha Plant confirmed as Fighter Pass character 6!

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Honestly a Resident Evil character's chances never really hinged on Mii Costume theory. It's one of the most important franchises in gaming history and it's Capcom's biggest IP, a Smash inclusion is bound to happen at some point

 

[Ornl]

Sales aren't an indicator of cultural impact? And to what tendencies are you referring? If we're talking genre, survival horror is currently unrepresented in Smash, Resident Evil is the best single best selling Japanese originating third party without a playable character, almost every single mainline game in the franchise will be on the Switch before the end of 2019, and it's also spawned the longest running movie franchise based on a video game. It's dripping in both tendencies and cultural impact.

Not only, it depends on the derived products and adaptations (movies, TV...)
A tendency may be different from one culture to another, from one period to another. For example, Resident Evil didn't appear in the top100 preferences according to the Famitsu readers in 2017. Moreover, a tendency can even be measured by its supporters and communities (like Banjo)...

RTC is just a fun game for people to rank character chances. It is not scientific

No need to make statements to me if I didn't say otherwise (x2).

But my opinion is unchanged, and that's all I can speak for.

It would be enough not to take things personally so as not need to react by defending one's personal opinions. If you don't feel concerned, accept that others are (x2).

 

[Deleted member]

Are people already making theories about which character was hinted at because there was a plant behind Sakurai in the video?

Legend of Zelda, Fire Emblem, Persona 5, and Dragon Quest

What do all 4 franchises have in common?

They all have a Musou game

We're just 1 step closer to an actual Dynasty Warriors character in Smash!

Spoiler: Hint of a different Fighter

 

[Nquoid]

Not only, it depends on the derived products and adaptations (movies, TV...)
A tendency may be different from one culture to another, from one period to another. For example, Resident Evil didn't appear in the top100 preferences according to the Famitsu readers in 2017. Moreover, a tendency can even be measured by its supporters and communities (like Banjo)...

Castlevania, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Banjo and Bayonetta aren't on that list. Whereas only Bayonetta and Banjo (also literally couldn't be) weren't on that top 20 list of franchises I posted. What makes this list more valid than that one, beyond Sakurai writing a column for Famitsu?

No need to make statements to me if I didn't say otherwise (x2).

It would be enough not to take things personally so as not need to react by defending one's personal opinions. If you don't feel concerned, accept that others are (x2).

You've ignored everything I've said to post the same two comments that dont actually further a discussion.

You posted the RTC character rankings. I perceived that as backing up some sort of point of you were making. If they arent, or theres room for misinterpretation, then maybe tell me what you meant rather than shutting down the discourse. The reason I made a statement that you didn't say otherwise is because the point you made wasnt particularly clear to me, beyond the fact that we fundamentally differ on the chances of Capcom and Namco.

There are plenty of people I disagree with about this topic and neither I or them take it personally. But sometimes it feels like you present certain pieces of information as fact. And I admit that probably is partly the language barrier. But it always feels like it's in a negative context to fighters chances and very rarely the positive.

Sorry if you feel like I'm ganging up on you, I just want to make sure I'm exactly clear on what your point is.

 

[Dust319]

Legend of Zelda, Fire Emblem, Persona 5, and Dragon Quest

What do all 4 franchises have in common?

They all have a Musou game

We're just 1 step closer to an actual Dynasty Warriors character in Smash!

Not a Warriors character, historical/book characters are still not getting in. If Koei Tecmo gets represented, they’d have Ryu Hayabusa or Ayane since those are original characters and effectively mascots anyway. I’m leaning toward Ayane since she has appeared in Dead or Alive fighting games and volleyball, Ninja Gaiden series, and Warriors Orichi series.

No Geno costume means my $500 prediction is half right so far.

Edit: typos

 

[Deleted member]

Not a Warriors character, historical/book characters are still not getting in.

If there's a problem with the licensing, Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors wouldn't be possible in Smash at all, but there isn't a known case where using characters from a historical period or from the RoTK novel would require licensing such names. Not to mention if they're in it'd be Koei-Tecmo's interpretation of the characters and not some Smash OC.

If Koei Tecmo gets represented, they’d have Ryu Hayabusa or Ayane since those are original characters and effectively mascots anyway. I’m leaning toward Ayane since she has appeared in Dead or Alive fighting games and volleyball, Ninja Gaiden series, and Warriors Orichi series.

Hayabusa has a bigger chance being in Smash than Ayane. If Ninja Gaiden content is in Smash, you can't have the main character sidelined as a spirit, but I will say if Hayabusa does get in Ayane would definitely be in Smash at some point by either being in the background of a Ninja Gaiden stage or as an AT.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Not sure why people say Mii Costume theory is dead. Mii Costume theory was always just 'the companies that got Mii Costumes last game will get characters this time'. So far it's still on track, even if it seems redundant to me.

 

[RileyXY1]

Not sure why people say Mii Costume theory is dead. Mii Costume theory was always just 'the companies that got Mii Costumes last game will get characters this time'. So far it's still on track, even if it seems redundant to me.

Except we know now that not all of the Mii Costumes from Smash 4 are coming back, which the Mii Costume Theory pretty much hinges on.

 

[3BitSaurus]

With or without Costume Theory, I still think we're getting a Capcom character. I have a few doubts about Namco, but with how many influential series Capcom has and how cooperative they have been so far, I doubt Sakurai would pass up an opportunity to add another character from them.

I mean... the Capcom boss could have just been a Mega Man one, but... we got Rathalos. A third party boss without a playable fighter. If Capcom allowed that and they love their crossovers so much, I see little reasons for them to have no content in the Pass.

 

[Ornl]

What makes this list more valid than that one, beyond Sakurai writing a column for Famitsu?

I said "For example". No need to ask me to justify something I didn't say (x3).

There are plenty of people I disagree with about this topic and neither I or them take it personally. But sometimes it feels like you present certain pieces of information as fact. And I admit that probably is partly the language barrier. But it always feels like it's in a negative context to fighters chances and very rarely the positive.

Sorry if you feel like I'm ganging up on you, I just want to make sure I'm exactly clear on what your point is.

It's a fact that some rating are relied the Costumes Theory. There is no interpretation. This has nothing to do with my personal rating, there is no link, it isn't the subject.

 

[Curious Villager]

Not sure why people say Mii Costume theory is dead. Mii Costume theory was always just 'the companies that got Mii Costumes last game will get characters this time'. So far it's still on track, even if it seems redundant to me.

I think the idea of the theory was more in regards to the notion that they cut all the third party mii costumes from the last game just to resell most of them again for this game. And tie them in with whatever company they relate to and get a character with. Since neither the Geno mii costume, nor even the Chocobo hat returned with Hero. That might throw a wrench into the plan.

Which may mean that they may go all out with mostly bringing new costumes related to the newly introduced franchise at hand, and maybe bring back a few of them like the Tails and Knuckles costumes.

At least I suppose so.

I don't think bringing back most of the old third party costumes will be as much of a priority as some people initially thought. But that's just me I guess...

 

[Nquoid]

I said "For example". No need to ask me to justify something I didn't say (x3).

The choices about Persona and Banjo don't refer to sales.

Not only, it depends on the derived products and adaptations (movies, TV...) A tendency may be different from one culture to another, from one period to another. For example, Resident Evil didn't appear in the top100 preferences according to the Famitsu readers in 2017. Moreover, a tendency can even be measured by its supporters and communities (like Banjo)...

You literally told me that sales weren't important to all characters, and then posted your own link, which I disagreed with in the exact same way. But your rebuttal is to accuse me of a bad faith argument rather than engage with the substance of my disagreement.

You posting a link to one thing, whilst disagreeing with my own information creates an implication that you think one source is stronger than the other, regardless of your intent, that is the way your messaging comes across.

 

[Door Key Pig]

So can it be argued the overall Final Fantasy representation was slightly stronger in Smash 4 now that we still didn't get the Chocobo hat?

 

[3BitSaurus]

So can it be argued the overall Final Fantasy representation was slightly stronger in Smash 4 now that we still didn't get the Chocobo hat?

Dunno, there's still a chance for that content to come back, however small.

Maybe it's just not a priority, as others have said? Or maybe it's specifically because of Square? Who knows, but we're pretty much in the dark... until at least tomorrow, after the patch, when it will probably have been datamined to hell and back.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Except we know now that not all of the Mii Costumes from Smash 4 are coming back, which the Mii Costume Theory pretty much hinges on.

I think the idea of the theory was more in regards to the notion that they cut all the third party mii costumes from the last game just to resell most of them again for this game. And tie them in with whatever company they relate to and get a character with. Since neither the Geno mii costume, nor even the Chocobo hat returned with Hero. That might throw a wrench into the plan.

Which may mean that they may go all out with mostly bringing new costumes related to the newly introduced franchise at hand, and maybe bring back a few of them like the Tails and Knuckles costumes.

At least I suppose so.

I don't think bringing back most of the old third party costumes will be as much of a priority as some people initially thought. But that's just me I guess...

I don't think it was ever about that, but maybe I had misunderstood the theory all this time.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

I feel like resident evil is the most likely at this point.

 

[yeet123]

Would any Capcom character generate hype as much as... well.... any other strong contender (DoomGuy, Crash, Dark Souls, etc)?

Tales would be fairly eh, Phoenix would be cool, Layton would be ehh. RE would be the biggest Capcom add imo but still not ass hype as the others mentioned above ^

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't think it was ever about that, but maybe I had misunderstood the theory all this time.

I don't know, that's just the impression I got from it.

Eitherway though, I don't think Sakurai would arbitrarily limit himself with what characters to go with, just for the sake of bringing back some old mii costumes, but like I said, that's probably just me.

 

[Nquoid]

I don't think it was ever about that, but maybe I had misunderstood the theory all this time.

I've always felt costume theory was super ill defined. It was always a theory that essentially backed up the biggest third party companies in the world, because they were already in the game.

Square getting a character in the game but not bringing back the costumes is very weird. There's literally no reason not to, unless Square are being that protective over the rights.

It's not like it proves that Namco and Capcom won't be getting new reps. Just that costumes might not necessarily come back with them. The idea that costumes being a deciding factor in which companies to approach always felt flawed. It's just a coincidence the two companies left without costumes are the two with the most choice in which reps they could provide.

 

[Ornl]

You literally told me that sales weren't important to all characters, and then posted your own link, which I disagreed with in the exact same way. But your rebuttal is to accuse me of a bad faith argument rather than engage with the substance of my disagreement.

You posting a link to one thing, whilst disagreeing with my own information creates an implication that you think one source is stronger than the other, regardless of your intent, that is the way your messaging comes across.

An example of tendency is just an example of tendency. You asked how could be perceived a tendency. So I gave an example illustrating my point. It's you who interpret from the beginning. There is interpretation in each of your answer. Answering interpretations may not have an end, until boredom. Me, I didn't make any interpretation in this discussion.

 

[Deleted member]

Square getting a character in the game but not bringing back the costumes is very weird. There's literally no reason not to, unless Square are being that protective over the rights.

The assumption I'm going off of as to why the Geno costume and Chocobo hat didn't come back is because the Mii Costumes coming with Hero are themed after Enix and not Squaresoft, even though it doesn't make too much sense since not all of the Mii Costumes that came with Joker were from Atlus.

Mii Costume theory still holds up in that with every character there'll be Mii Costumes from their respective franchise, which makes me wonder what kind of costumes there'll be for Banjo-Kazooie since it doesn't look like there'll be Mii Costumes from other Microsoft IPs coming with them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Would any Capcom character generate hype as much as... well.... any other strong contender (DoomGuy, Crash, Dark Souls, etc)?

Tales would be fairly eh, Phoenix would be cool, Layton would be ehh. RE would be the biggest Capcom add imo but still not *** hype as the others mentioned above ^

1) Tales is Bandai Namco, and Layton Is Level-5

2) I don't think Dark Souls would bring much hype, there's zero demand even from series fans (I also don't think it's anywhere near a strong contender)

3) I think RE and PW would bring more hype than Doomguy, PW has had tons of demand for a while and RE is just a bigger franchise than Doom in both sales and worldwide appeal

 

[Dust319]

If there's a problem with the licensing, Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors wouldn't be possible in Smash at all, but there isn't a known case where using characters from a historical period or from the RoTK novel would require licensing such names. Not to mention if they're in it'd be Koei-Tecmo's interpretation of the characters and not some Smash OC.

I never said it would be a licensing issue. The issue is Dynasty and Samurai Warriors is told as an adaptation of the novels and historical documents, not just an interpretation of them.
For a hypothetical example, it would be like adding Ghandi from Civilization. Well, he’s not the real Ghandi, he’s just how Civilazation portrays him...

 

[SKX31]

Mii Costume theory still holds up in that with every character there'll be Mii Costumes from their respective franchise, which makes me wonder what kind of costumes there'll be for Banjo-Kazooie since it doesn't look like there'll be Mii Costumes from other Microsoft IPs coming with them.

There are some Mii Costumes that could come directly from Banjo-Kazooie without much hassle. Which is why I somewhat doubt Steve and Master Chief will be Mii Costumes, but I digress:

Mumbo Jumbo: Primarily Gunner, can work as a Swordie. Probably the most obvious, partly because of his playable segments in Tooie, partly because of the Mingy Jongo (evil robot Mumbo) boss fight (who shoots as a primary attack).

Grunty: Would be a weird costume honestly - the closest she comes to fighting directly is technically Tooie's multiplayer. And if one discards that, Kazooie's final boss fight. However, one could easily substitute the Gunner's / Swordie's weapons with her broom (alongside added magic as particle effects, possibly). If Mumbo's the gunner, then Grunty's going to be the frontrunner as Swordie just because she's the villainess. Skull Kid's Brawler outfit did set a precedent here, alongside Lip's and Ashley's swordie outfits.

I don't have many good ideas of who would be a good Brawler outfit though. Jinjo? That's not a horrible idea since Jinjos also have evil counterparts (Minjos). Both Mumbo's and Grunty's hats could be included though, alongside perhaps Humba's headwear or even a Jinjo hat.

So there's quite a decent amount of stuff to pull from really.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Should we also expect Mii costumes of Steve () and Master Chief () as well given VergeBen's claim of Minecraft content with the former?

 

[TheCJBrine]

Shouuld we also expect Mii costumes of Steve () and Master Chief () as well given VergeBen's claim of Minecraft content with the former?

I think it's possible.

please if you're not gonna give me Steve himself at least make him a costume.

 

[Nquoid]

Watching back on the Joker video and there were six costumes. Really feels like something might have fallen through or changed for Geno and Chocobo cus then it would have matched the quantity in the first batch exactly.

But then the Smash 4 costume packs were hardly identical in size each time, so I'm probably just reading too much into it.

Spoiler: Joker Costumes image

Spoiler: Hero Costumes image

 

[YoshiandToad]

Would any Capcom character generate hype as much as... well.... any other strong contender (DoomGuy, Crash, Dark Souls, etc)?

Tales would be fairly eh, Phoenix would be cool, Layton would be ehh. RE would be the biggest Capcom add imo but still not *** hype as the others mentioned above ^

Layton doesn't belong to Capcom, I believe that's Level-5's IP. Although he did cross over with Phoenix once who is Capcom's IP.

I think Devil May Cry's Dante probably would amongst the Smash community, if no only because everyone assumed him a no hoper at this point.

Resident Evil getting a character be it Jill, Leon, Chris or even someone like Wesker would also generate a decent amount of hype worldwide too. Resident Evil has a huge fanbase that frankly eclipses all those series in popularity, and it's characters are pretty memorable to those who have played it.

Dark Souls isn't really character driven(or rather not in the same way the other series you mentioned), Crash is admittedly a big deal but his resurgence is kind of a new thing and overall his series is a bit smaller than RE , and DoomGuy is...well, I'll be honest DoomGuy's only become popular after the 2016 incarnation of him made him give zero ****s. Before that I'm not even sure people really viewed him as his own character.

I think Resident Evil at the very least matches up to those series hype, if not surpasses a few of them.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Mii Costume theory still holds up in that with every character there'll be Mii Costumes from their respective franchise, which makes me wonder what kind of costumes there'll be for Banjo-Kazooie since it doesn't look like there'll be Mii Costumes from other Microsoft IPs coming with them.

A Master Chief,A Steve and A Battletoads.

 

[Deleted member]

I never said it would be a licensing issue. The issue is Dynasty and Samurai Warriors is told as an adaptation of the novels and historical documents, not just an interpretation of them.

The reason I bring up licensing is because it's 1 of the factors to why Sakurai avoids putting non-video game characters in Smash. If the rights to the series were owned by multiple people/companies and are very costly, there wouldn't be a reason to include such a character in Smash (case and point, Goldeneye). That doesn't appear to be the case for Dynasty Warriors and actually makes it a viable pick for Smash since it's owned by Koei-Tecmo. Even if the games are adaptations of historical events (and an ancient novel), they aren't the be all end all deciding factor to not putting a Musou character in Smash. The interpretation matters a lot more than the adaptations of the events in the games because it's what separates which version of a character is from which franchise/media. The characters in Dynasty Warriors are not the same as the characters in Total War Three Kingdoms. They may be based off of real life people and are set on the same region and time period, but hardly would I consider Creative Assembly's version of Zhao Yun exactly the same as Omega-Force's version of him.

it would be like adding Ghandi from Civilization. Well, he’s not the real Ghandi, he’s just how Civilazation portrays him...

and that isn't really an issue because as you said it is Civ's version of Gandhi. Granted, I've never played any of the Sid Meier games and hardly consider that game to be a contender for Smash, but it's not off the realm of possibility unless somebody else owns the rights to Gandhi himself.

 

[yeet123]

Does anyone else have the feeling that The Hero is ridiculously OP...

 

[Us3inMN]

Here's a topic changer: Which 3rd Party Characters do you think will return to a hypothetical Smash 6?

My guesses are Sonic, PAC-MAN, maybe Bayonetta, and Ryu.

 

[Dust319]

The reason I bring up licensing is because it's 1 of the factors to why Sakurai avoids putting non-video game characters in Smash. If the rights to the series were owned by multiple people/companies and are very costly, there wouldn't be a reason to include such a character in Smash (case and point, Goldeneye). That doesn't appear to be the case for Dynasty Warriors and actually makes it a viable pick for Smash since it's owned by Koei-Tecmo. Even if the games are adaptations of historical events (and an ancient novel), they aren't the be all end all deciding factor to not putting a Musou character in Smash. The interpretation matters a lot more than the adaptations of the events in the games because it's what separates which version of a character is from which franchise/media. The characters in Dynasty Warriors are not the same as the characters in Total War Three Kingdoms. They may be based off of real life people and are set on the same region and time period, but hardly would I consider Creative Assembly's version of Zhao Yun exactly the same as Omega-Force's version of him.


and that isn't really an issue because as you said it is Civ's version of Gandhi. Granted, I've never played any of the Sid Meier games and hardly consider that game to be a contender for Smash, but it's not off the realm of possibility unless somebody else owns the rights to Gandhi himself.

Okay so you don’t find it weird that historically based or characters based on other media are in smash, despite that not being the case thus far?

Okay cool, so where’s Goku? Or how about the Zenomorph from Aliens? Or how about we add Batman from the Arkham games? How about Abe Lincoln from Project STEAM?

My point is, I do not see any of the Dynasty Warriors or Samurai Warriors characters as “video game characters,” because I am familiar with the historical references and source material. Having any of them appear in Smash Brothers as a video game all-star would feel weird to me, as I think it would to several others, because they were people first and in video games later.

 

[LemonBoy65]

Alright, watched the Hero livestream this morning. Pretty fun seeing Sakurai play his own game. He seemed happy with Hero in Smash and you can tell he's proud of his work. Bummed there was no other SE rep besides DQ, but nothing to lose sleep over.

As for the final two newcomers, I'm fine with the most speculated ones at the moment (Doom Slayer, Lloyd Irving, Crash, Leon/Jill, etc.) While I do lean on the "spirits=deconfirmed" side, it would be amazing to see a spirit become a full character.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

does anyone else notice the e10+ to Teen rating on the bottom left in the very beginning of the video, I'm not sure if this is an error or not but it is an interesting notice.

 

[andree123]

does anyone else notice the e10+ to Teen rating on the bottom left in the very beginning of the video, I'm not sure if this is an error or not but it is an interesting notice.

Which video?

 

[LemonBoy65]

does anyone else notice the e10+ to Teen rating on the bottom left in the very beginning of the video, I'm not sure if this is an error or not but it is an interesting notice.

Hasn't Smash Bros. always been in that range of game ratings? Plus I thought Smash Ultimate was E10+ from the beginning.

 

[kylexv]

does anyone else notice the e10+ to Teen rating on the bottom left in the very beginning of the video, I'm not sure if this is an error or not but it is an interesting notice.

Dragon Quest 11 is T for Teen, so it's likely for that, since it was advertised there.

 

[SilentSentinel]

Dragon Quest 11 is T for Teen, so it's likely for that, since it was advertised there.

In Joker's video, it has the E10+ rating despite Persona 5 being rated M.