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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Sc_Ev0lution

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doesn't this apply for pretty much every pokemon game? I don't see why the same applying to SWSH is a big deal.

also smash is generally bad at representing music for pretty much every series in the game, so, once again, I don't see why the same applying to pokemon is a big deal.
I'd say that I'm favorable to far less of the Sw/Sh ost than anyother pokemon game. That is to say, Gens 1-7 have 6+ standout tracks each and the rest are good or better; Sw/Sh can barely muster 2 standouts.

And just because Pokemon isn't the only series to have wonky music representaion in Smash doesn't mean I can't complain about it, there's just more to complain about.

--

Actually, the fact that the music selection has ballooned progressively with each new Smash game only makes these oversights less excusable. When each series had fewer than 10 tracks apiece, it was understandable that a few gems would miss out. Now that it isn't uncommon for a series to get 30+ songs, I've got to wonder "yeah, why couldn't you make room for Colress's theme?"

In fact, compared to the other forms of content in Ultimate (fighters, stages, items, spirits) Pokemon is quite underrepresented in the music department. It has fewer tracks than Mario and Zelda (obviously) but also Fatal Fury, Fire Emblem, Kirby, and Street Fighter, with about the same track count as Mega Man and Castlevania, and only barely edging out Metroid, F-Zero, and Splatoon. I really don't think it would be unfair for Pokemon to get ~25 more tracks.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Actually, the fact that the music selection has ballooned progressively with each new Smash game only makes these oversights less excusable. When each series had fewer than 10 tracks apiece, it was understandable that a few gems would miss out. Now that it isn't uncommon for a series to get 30+ songs, I've got to wonder "yeah, why couldn't you make room for Colress's theme?"

In fact, compared to the other forms of content in Ultimate (fighters, stages, items, spirits) Pokemon is quite underrepresented in the music department. It has fewer tracks than Mario and Zelda (obviously) but also Fatal Fury, Fire Emblem, Kirby, and Street Fighter, with about the same track count as Mega Man and Castlevania, and only barely edging out Metroid, F-Zero, and Splatoon. I really don't think it would be unfair for Pokemon to get ~25 more tracks.
Speaking of underrepresentation...

cries in the three Yoshi stages only having 18 tracks to share between them
 

Cosmic77

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This is a speculation thread. Precedence is literally the backbone of speculation. By you saying that following the set precedent is a flimsy argument, you're basically admitting to not wanting to actually speculate. Because by removing precedence, what's left that isn't either blind guessing or "this can happen I swear?"
I never said precedence couldn't be used. It's not possible to speculate without using precedence to some degree.

That being said, precedence is only an observation. It's not concrete, and it could easily be broken at any point. If you can find a precedent for multiple things, then you can make a more believable argument, but the only precedent you've used so far for SwSh not getting a new character is, "No DLC character so far has come from a game that got a Spirit event after the base game." I don't consider that to be a particularly strong precedent, especially since there's only one character so far who supports that theory, and this is only the second Smash game to receive DLC.
 

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I never said precedence couldn't be used. It's not possible to speculate without using precedence to some degree.

That being said, precedence is only an observation. It's not concrete, and it could easily be broken at any point. If you can find a precedent for multiple things, then you can make a more believable argument, but the only precedent you've used so far for SwSh not getting a new character is, "No DLC character so far has come from a game that got a Spirit event after the base game." I don't consider that to be a particularly strong precedent, especially since there's only one character so far who supports that theory, and this is only the second Smash game to receive DLC.
You're missing the other half of the argument though, and the stronger half in fact.

They knew who was going to be in Fighter Pass 2 by the time the SwSh spirits released. They knew whether or not it would include a SwSh character. There has yet to be a solid reason given as for why they'd spoil the content early with a spirit event.
 

Goombaic

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im more miffed why F-Zero's music selection is mostly SNES songs and hit-or-miss remixes. I need more GX music dammit

i need the vocal themes, including CF's in Smash yesterday
F-Zero GX/AX's soundtrack is godly as ****.
I understand music can't just be directly ripped from their original games for several reasons and that there's a lot of tracks we're lucky to have in this game, but damn, where's Body Rock.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I wish some songs weren't missing in this game. Would love What I'm made of.

Or like, any song that isn't from street fighter 2.yeah it's cool that SF2 got it's whole pay in there but I wanted SF5 and Alpha songs.
Did you just diss Volcanic Rim from 4?
 

Hadokeyblade

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No music exclusion will ever compare to the embarrassing lack of Tropical Freeze tracks for Donkey Kong and "This is True Love We're Makin" for Terry.
To be fair the London stage theme is a song from a Capcom game So that's probably why it's not there.

...but they should have fit it in with the 50 KOF tracks.
 

Cosmic77

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You're missing the other half of the argument though, and the stronger half in fact.

They knew who was going to be in Fighter Pass 2 by the time the SwSh spirits released. They knew whether or not it would include a SwSh character. There has yet to be a solid reason given as for why they'd spoil the content early with a spirit event.
I already gave you a reason, and you pretty much responded with, "No, Sakurai isn't the kind of person who would do something like that."

There's a lot more to SwSh than four Spirits, so I don't know why that would "spoil" the upcoming content when there's still going to be a character, a stage, music, and additional Spirits.
 
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Calamitas

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'Course, no discussion of music missing in Smash is complete without bringing up that Xenoblade Chronicles X is the only game in that series to have zero tracks.

inb4 someone brings up the "Uhm AKSHUALLY Sawano and rights!!!" card even though that was no issue for 2's DLC

Sakurai: "A vocal version of Mut City you say? I Got'chya covered."
Mut City? Is that a vocal cover full of barks? :4pacman:

No music exclusion will ever compare to the embarrassing lack of Tropical Freeze tracks for Donkey Kong and "This is True Love We're Makin" for Terry.
Still need my Homecoming Hijinx in Smash.

I really don't see the appeal in most of the tracks that everyone likes from this game. In my opinion of the rival themes are all incredibly mediocre, the gym leader theme doesn't have a melody until the tone deaf crowd comes in (and while it works for what it's supposed to, I wouldn't listen to it on it's own like the other gym leader themes), the wild battle theme isn't good enough for you to be hearing it as much as you do, the battle tower music doesn't feel like it belongs in the Pokémon series, and all of the area themes are forgettable except for Slumbering Weald because all of the music surrounding Zacian and Zamazenta is a 10/10.
Ah hey, someone else who found the Sword/Shield soundtrack underwhelming. Neat.
Honestly though, the only track besides the Battle Tower theme that really stood out to me was the song that played in the northern half of the Wild Area.

Wow, we've talked a bunch about obvious music exclusions, and we STILL haven't even gotten to the spinoffs yet! This one's gonna last a bit, ain't it?
Oh, good that you mention it.
Ahem
Dialga's Fight to the Finish and Eclipse of the Sun.
That is all.
 
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Opossum

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I already gave you a reason, and you pretty much responded with, "No, Sakurai isn't the kind of person to do something like that."

There's a lot more to SwSh than four Spirits, so I don't know why that would "spoil" the upcoming content when there's still going to be a character, a stage, music, and additional Spirits.
I responded by appealing to precedence. It wasn't ignoring your point, it was debunking it.

And for the second half of your post, I defer to my earlier Punch-Out!! example.
 
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I'd say that I'm favorable to far less of the Sw/Sh ost than anyother pokemon game. That is to say, Gens 1-7 have 6+ standout tracks each and the rest are good or better; Sw/Sh can barely muster 2 standouts.

And just because Pokemon isn't the only series to have wonky music representaion in Smash doesn't mean I can't complain about it, there's just more to complain about.
I'm not saying you can't complain it, I'm just saying it's a bit weird to only complain about Pokemon when it's a general issue.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I already gave you a reason, and you pretty much responded with, "No, Sakurai isn't the kind of person to do something like that."
The responce in question
. Back during E3 2018 tons of people immediately noticed Samus didn't have her Dark Samus pallet and Ike didn't have his Chrom pallet. He even said during their official reveal that we "probably saw this coming." So then the team purposely didn't do a Three Houses spirit event, and people found it suspicious. Lo and behold, Byleth got in. If he didn't try to obfuscate Byleth after Chrom and Dark Samus, why would he start for SwSh?
IMG_20200504_140855.jpg
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I'd be willing to bet they had to fight pretty hard to have this scene. Iirc, most cartoons and anime at the time either removed guns completely, or made them make laser noises.

Personally, I'd call that a symptom of splitting the Yoshi music from the Mario music, but I'm not exactly a Yoshi music enthusiast so I wouldn't know.
The Yoshi's series has about 12 game in it now (5 if you only count the mainline titles, but I can't imagine why they'd want to avoid any of the ones from Yoshi's Island onwards, which equates to 9 games to pick from). I don't think they'd be hard pressed to bump that number up to something that would allow for a lot more variety between the three stages. Heck, there are even standout songs from Yoshi's Island that didn't get in like Baby Bowser's theme, though I'd be willing to bet they just didn't think a heavy metal theme would be appropriate for any of the stages in the case of that song, which I guess is fair but still...

EDIT: Actually, some of the Yoshi games are reskinned versions of Panel de Pon, so maybe that's why they didn't want to go with those?

Mut City? Is that a vocal cover full of barks?
I thought something was wrong with that spelling, but I couldn't figure out what it was. lol
 
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Opossum

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Speaking of missing music, Fire Emblem is missing some bangers. Twilight of the Gods, Divine Decree (Ablaze), Legend of the Divine Dragon, Disturbance in Agustria, Dark Emperor Hardin, Beauty is a Mad Mistress, God Shattering Star, Tearing Shadows, and Truth, Despair, and Hope are all absent.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Other critical songs missing from Smash aside from a great deal of Xenoblade X’s soundtrack and the aforementioned F-Zero GX soundtrack:

  • any TMS music. We have a Spirit from that game but no music?? Come on (inb4 someone mentions Avex)
  • any Octo Expansion music. We have Octoling Girl & Boy and Octoling Octopus as Spirits and those are the OE likenesses. But no music
  • Shambhala from Three Houses. God Shattering Star who?
  • PROGRAM from Kirby Planet Robobot
  • more Sonic Mania music
  • Dark Samus’s themes. You include her as a playable character but not her theme songs??
  • more Tropical Freeze music
  • Tidal Rush from Splatoon 2 base game
  • VOLCANIC RIM. just. Volcanic Rim.
 

Calamitas

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Speaking of missing music, Fire Emblem is missing some bangers. Twilight of the Gods, Divine Decree (Ablaze), Legend of the Divine Dragon, Disturbance in Agustria, Dark Emperor Hardin, Beauty is a Mad Mistress, God Shattering Star, Tearing Shadows, and Truth, Despair, and Hope are all absent.
Not to mention literally anything from Fates' OST that is not a version of Lost in Thought All Alone. Like, say what you will about the game, but it had an amazing soundtrack, and Smash not having the likes of A Dark Fall (Fire), Alight (Storm) and Road Taken (Roar) really is just a glaring omission.
 
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Speaking of missing music, Fire Emblem is missing some bangers. Twilight of the Gods, Divine Decree (Ablaze), Legend of the Divine Dragon, Disturbance in Agustria, Dark Emperor Hardin, Beauty is a Mad Mistress, God Shattering Star, Tearing Shadows, and Truth, Despair, and Hope are all absent.
An old favorite of mine was always Clash of Two Virtues.
 

Cosmic77

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I responded by appealing to precedence. It wasn't ignoring your point, it was debunking it.

And for the second half of your post, I defer to my earlier Punch-Out!! example.
How does precedence debunk an argument when precedence itself isn't even concrete? I could've "debunked" any argument suggesting Min Min would get in Smash by pointing out that Sakurai had never added any character before the main character/mascot. It wouldn't have been until after the fact when I would've learned Min Min was an exception.

And I already saw the Punch-Out!! example. Unless you're implying that Sakurai will always follow that precedent and never change, what's your point? One, two, even three examples does not mean the precedent will always exist.
 
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SKX31

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No music exclusion will ever compare to the embarrassing lack of Tropical Freeze tracks for Donkey Kong and "This is True Love We're Makin" for Terry.
Other critical songs missing from Smash aside from a great deal of Xenoblade X’s soundtrack and the aforementioned F-Zero GX soundtrack:

  • any TMS music. We have a Spirit from that game but no music?? Come on (inb4 someone mentions Avex)
  • any Octo Expansion music. We have Octoling Girl & Boy and Octoling Octopus as Spirits and those are the OE likenesses. But no music
  • Shambhala from Three Houses. God Shattering Star who?
  • PROGRAM from Kirby Planet Robobot
  • more Sonic Mania music
  • Dark Samus’s themes. You include her as a playable character but not her theme songs??
  • more Tropical Freeze music
  • Tidal Rush from Splatoon 2 base game
  • VOLCANIC RIM. just. Volcanic Rim.
Looks at FF's infamous lack of songs.

You know, this is exactly why Nintendo should just give Sakurai AAA budget from this point onward and let him and his team go bonkers.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Looks at FF's infamous lack of songs.

You know, this is exactly why Nintendo should just give Sakurai AAA budget from this point onward and let him and his team go bonkers.
I mean Final Fantasy kinda goes without saying so I didn’t want to beat a dead horse

oh also surely if they could afford to add a Spirit of Raiden’s Revengeance likeness they could have also added Rules of Nature, even if just an instrumental
 

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How does precedence debunk an argument when precedence itself isn't even concrete? I could've "debunked" any argument suggesting Min Min would get in Smash by pointing out that Sakurai had never added any character before the main character/mascot. It wouldn't have been until after the fact when I would've learned Min Min was an exception.

And I already saw the Punch-Out!! example. Unless you're implying that Sakurai will always follow that precedent and never change, what's your point? One, two, even three examples does not mean the precedent will always exist.
The entire point of an exception is that it's something you can't account for. At the same time, if your choice getting in relies on being seen as an exception, then that's a sign to me that said character isn't likely to happen.

The point with Punch-Out!! was that in order for a SwSh Pokémon prediction to make sense, it would need to fly in the face of several already established precedents. Ergo, they're unlikely to have put a SwSh character in Fighter Pass 2.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Right, because "precedent" has worked out so well for speculation in Ultimate so far. Precedent suggested that the final character of the first pass would follow the trend the previous four characters set and be third-party. Precedent also suggested we'd get Spring Man. Oh, but I suppose he was an exception — an exception that only made sense after Min Min was revealed and Sakurai himself explained why Spring Man wasn't chosen.

It's fine if you want to use precedent as a means to push your argument, but understand that precedent is also very flimsy. One day it's, "That doesn't line up with previous patterns," the next it could easily be, "Well, that might've just been an exception."

As for Spirit events, yes, people found the lack of a 3H Spirit event to be suspicious. You know what else was suspicious? Where was the Astral Chain Spirit event? What about Ring Fit? Don't you find it even more suspicious that the next two major first-party titles after 3H didn't get Spirit events until months after their release? Astral Chain got its Spirit event only days away from Byleth's reveal, and prior to that, everyone was listing it as one of the most likely first-party titles to get a character.

I have absolutely no idea if there was a reason for holding off the Astral Chain and Ring Fit Spirit events for so long, but if there was, it wouldn't surprise me if it was purposely done to make 3H's absence less glaring.
No, Ring Fit Adventure and Astral Chain aren't in the least bit suspicious because promotional Spirits have never been consistent for different titles. Super Mario Party Spirits came out after the game had launched in January 2019, NSMBU Deluxe Spirits came out in late May 2019 which was 5 months after the game launched, Link's Awakening Spirits came out 3 months before the game itself even came out, Octopath Traveler got Spirits on the second anniversary of the game's release even with a first year anniversary a possibility, Cuphead Spirits launched a few weeks after the costume was included with Byleth's wave of DLC and months after Cuphead had launced on Switch... Etc. Resident Evil, Daemon X Machina, Pokemon Sword/Shield, and Trials of Mana were all Spirits that launched with their respective games, so Pokemon isn't even uniquely qualified in that regard either.

You can talk about how precedent and how "I don't think Sakurai..." aren't the most compelling arguments, but the least compelling argument of all is the "Sakurai/Nintendo intentionally put stuff in to throw us off the trail." I've heard this same idea mentioned time after time as justification, and never once has it panned out because they've never really cared that much about throwing us off the trail with misdirects. It's never once been a priority for Nintendo, and Pokemon in the pass would have been selected well before Byleth was even announced, so they also couldn't be reacting to people figuring it out specifically either. Sakurai is pretty straightforward guy at the end of the day and his actions and speech should generally be taken at face value instead of trying to figure out the supposed "4D chess strategy" he's using to try and keep us from discovering the truth. In every instance of a related situation, stuff being miss or seeming suspiciously like other things are specifically coming, it's just been reality.

Precedent is not the end all, be all, and it can be broken, but that's just kind of unhelpful as a point of conversation and especially for speculation because its such a non-starter in the same way that anything can happen is a non starter. It's fine if you're just trying to support a very specific character and be hopeful about them, but that's character support and not so much speculation. Exceptions to rule do not inherently break rules as a general concept that tends to be correct either. Hell, rules of grammar and math often have many exceptions that have to be learned, but generally hold true and are thus still considered rules. Breaking the "limits" of Smash so to speak makes for a nice narrative, but it's still just as steeped in rough criteria as it has generally always been and some of those limits being broken were either due to the natural progression of the game into something more grand or broken with very specific exceptions in mind. Again, I'm not saying precedent and rules are the end all, be all, but they are also just general guidelines that serve to create interesting conversation topics and at a least provide some basis in speculation.
 

Cutie Gwen

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No, Ring Fit Adventure and Astral Chain aren't in the least bit suspicious because promotional Spirits have never been consistent for different titles. Super Mario Party Spirits came out after the game had launched in January 2019, NSMBU Deluxe Spirits came out in late May 2019 which was 5 months after the game launched, Link's Awakening Spirits came out 3 months before the game itself even came out, Octopath Traveler got Spirits on the second anniversary of the game's release even with a first year anniversary a possibility, Cuphead Spirits launched a few weeks after the costume was included with Byleth's wave of DLC and months after Cuphead had launced on Switch... Etc. Resident Evil, Daemon X Machina, Pokemon Sword/Shield, and Trials of Mana were all Spirits that launched with their respective games, so Pokemon isn't even uniquely qualified in that regard either.

You can talk about how precedent and how "I don't think Sakurai..." aren't the most compelling arguments, but the least compelling argument of all is the "Sakurai/Nintendo intentionally put stuff in to throw us off the trail." I've heard this same idea mentioned time after time as justification, and never once has it panned out because they've never really cared that much about throwing us off the trail with misdirects. It's never once been a priority for Nintendo, and Pokemon in the pass would have been selected well before Byleth was even announced, so they also couldn't be reacting to people figuring it out specifically either. Sakurai is pretty straightforward guy at the end of the day and his actions and speech should generally be taken at face value instead of trying to figure out the supposed "4D chess strategy" he's using to try and keep us from discovering the truth. In every instance of a related situation, stuff being miss or seeming suspiciously like other things are specifically coming, it's just been reality.

Precedent is not the end all, be all, and it can be broken, but that's just kind of unhelpful as a point of conversation and especially for speculation because its such a non-starter in the same way that anything can happen is a non starter. It's fine if you're just trying to support a very specific character and be hopeful about them, but that's character support and not so much speculation. Exceptions to rule do not inherently break rules as a general concept that tends to be correct either. Hell, rules of grammar and math often have many exceptions that have to be learned, but generally hold true and are thus still considered rules. Breaking the "limits" of Smash so to speak makes for a nice narrative, but it's still just as steeped in rough criteria as it has generally always been and some of those limits being broken were either due to the natural progression of the game into something more grand or broken with very specific exceptions in mind. Again, I'm not saying precedent and rules are the end all, be all, but they are also just general guidelines that serve to create interesting conversation topics and at a least provide some basis in speculation.
Actually we did consider that for Astral Chain, it's just that 3H came out before it and people stopped seeing AC as likely as 3H when they randomly added AC Spirits after like 4 months
 
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