Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Gribbo]

I was about to comment on the livestream but someone else had something to say so you go ahead.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

Now, WF is no stranger to making licensed games. But by-and-large their most well liked titles are in-house, with 1 or 2 exceptions. I haven't seen the trailer, but a Bakugan game doesn't interest me in the least. This seems like a failure in marketing more than anything. Because they led with WayForward, a lot of people took notice, and when it turned out not to look that good (like most of their licensed games are) they were disappointed.

If they hadn't mentioned the developer at all, or waited until the game was shown off to tell us, then people would've thought the game forgettable but harmless. But now, people are (rightfully) disappointed, because Nintendo (probably intentionally) gave just enough room to accrue interest, even hype.

Thank goodness they only announced the Treehouse event a day before hand and quickly said it wasn't a Nintendo game? Could you imagine if people had a week to build anticipation for a WF developed Metroid or Wario Land? This thread would've imploded.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I sense infinite amounts of salt it seems. Lol.

 

[Speed Weed]

I sense infinite amounts of salt it seems. Lol.

why are you dismissing any criticism or disappointment as "lol salt"

 

[Michael the Spikester]

why are you dismissing any criticism or disappointment as "lol salt"

I assumed that people expecting something more then Bakugan and were disappointed.

 

[SirBillyBob]

Since discussion is kinda slow at the moment, I gotta know: is there a Jonesy Newcomer thread? I'm fairly certain there isn't but I need to know 100%.

Because I kinda want to make one.

Yes, I'm serious.

 

[Hinata]

Since discussion is kinda slow at the moment, I gotta know: is there a Jonesy Newcomer thread? I'm fairly certain there isn't but I need to know 100%.

Because I kinda want to make one.

Yes, I'm serious.

Not according to the directory of Newcomer Threads. That makes you the first person to be interested enough in Jonesy to consider it.

 

[SirBillyBob]

Not according to the directory of Newcomer Threads. That makes you the first person to be interested enough in Jonesy to consider it.

Alright, thanks for the answer. To be honest, I'm surprised that's the case considering how quick people are to make threads about anything under the sun.

 

[N3ON]

Now, WF is no stranger to making licensed games. But by-and-large their most well liked titles are in-house, with 1 or 2 exceptions. I haven't seen the trailer, but a Bakugan game doesn't interest me in the least. This seems like a failure in marketing more than anything. Because they led with WayForward, a lot of people took notice, and when it turned out not to look that good (like most of their licensed games are) they were disappointed.

If they hadn't mentioned the developer at all, or waited until the game was shown off to tell us, then people would've thought the game forgettable but harmless. But now, people are (rightfully) disappointed, because Nintendo (probably intentionally) gave just enough room to accrue interest, even hype.

Thank goodness they only announced the Treehouse event a day before hand and quickly said it wasn't a Nintendo game? Could you imagine if people had a week to build anticipation for a WF developed Metroid or Wario Land? This thread would've imploded.

Can't really fault Nintendo for trying to hype up a game though. They pushed it in the way they believed would bring the most eyes to it.

I guarantee even with the upset and the backlash, the way they did it will ensure more people know about and remember this game than had they just let it exist on the periphery as you'd normally expect from a Bakugan game. Let alone a Bakugan game in 2020.

I still don't think it will do well, but I also think that's just unavoidable by nature of what the game is.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I found what I was looking for. If a mod could please delete this post it would be greatly appreciated.

I hope you all look forward to my upcoming essays!

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

Lara Croft count?

I'm not sure?

Does Danganronpa qualify?

I don't think so, did it start as a game cause i never heard of it?

NiGHTS can be seen as out of the blue I think. Or Ristar.

Thats a good one

* Itsuki Aoi & Chrom (Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE Encore)
* The Stretchers
* DJ Octavio
* Octavo
* Musashi (Sushi Striker)
* Centiskorch
* God Eater rep
* Shining rep
* Suikoden rep
* Battletoads
* Kawase Umihara
* Emil Castagnier
* Noctis
* Patricia "Patty" Wagon
* Juan Aguacate
* The Beheaded
* Protagonist of Golf Story
* Katrielle Layton
* Rune Factory rep
* SteamWorld rep
* Toki Tori

all seem like out of the blue picks

Poochy from the Yoshi series

Also, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Direct would be too soon to reveal the next fighter. If they want to keep the December 2021 date, a reveal needs to happen soon. We should get CP7 released sometime in the fall and at least a reveal for CP8 by year's end, with that character releasing early 2021 at the latest. Otherwise, you're looking at reveal + release for 8, 9, 10, and 11 all next year, which is a lot. I also wonder if we wouldn't have gotten Min Min way sooner were it not for COVID. Had that been the case, we would probably know who 7 and maybe even 8 are by now

Ok

Does Sakura Shinguji count? Because I don't wanna risk lumping her with wishes of mine like Dig Dug or Kart Koopa.

Sakura Wars is currently owned by SEGA, Maybe since Sonic, Bayonetta, and Joker are in there

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

How about Characters that are not popular but only some know like this character.

I didn't make this, credit to:https://twitter.com/DuckyDeathly

This Mog from Super Bust a Move, it's part of the puzzle bobble series which is a spin off of Bubble Bobble which have Bub and Bob

 

[Will]

Yo they're making a Bakugan game? ****ing hype.

Bakugan which is like 12 years too late to catch on to when it was big and the game itself is bland as hell.

Bakugan got rebooted last year. Spinmaster is trying out new **** with the series.

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

I forgot bakugan existed, have heard since I had an old DS Game

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Inspired by this tweet...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If you had to choose one swordfighter for Fighters Pass 2, who would you pick? Why would you pick them? (you don't necessarily have to explain why, but it would help to add more to the post instead of just posting a character name)

I realize that there's some disdain for adding more swordfighters, though I don't know how much of it is due to the Fire Emblem characters in Smash, where it seems like every single one of them has to have a sword despite the amount of other weapon options in Fire Emblem, or if there's some other reason.

Also, I'm surprised that 2B isn't in the image, and yet Arthur is even though (from what I've read about Ghosts 'n' Goblins) he doesn't use a sword.

EDIT: to be clear, you aren't limited to the choices that are in this image.

As someone who's least favorite video game character archetype is probably a"Swordsman" and never use them in Super Smash Bros with the exception of sometimes with Meta Knight in Brawl.

The only one that I would probably give a **** about and would actually buy would have to be "Sirfetch'd" because I'm a big Pokemon fan and I love that he breaks the mold of your average hero or gritty, edgy character with a sword, I mean it's a freaking duck who uses a vegetable as a sword and shield combo, The idea of that makes me laugh and kind of reminds me of Piranha Plant to a lesser extent.

(images spoiler-tagged for size)

Spoiler

 

[domriver]

I found what I was looking for. If a mod could please delete this post it would be greatly appreciated.

I hope you all look forward to my upcoming essays!

Certainly am.

 

[ZeldaPlayer87]

At least that game doesn’t have to worry about a music budget.

 

[Aetheri]

What were people expecting, honestly?

I only tuned in out of curiosity for what this game is by Wayforward. I'm not reaching for some big long dormant franchise revival for a beloved series.

People need to stop hyping themselves up with unrealistic expectations.

 

[andree123]

Had anyone noticed that Paper Mario The Origami King game was leaked a week before its release date?

Spoiler

You get to fight against Bowser and Olly at the end of the game while they are fighting each other, not sure if Bowser was fighting against Olly just to save Peach.

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

What were people expecting, honestly?

I only tuned in out of curiosity for what this game is by Wayforward. I'm not reaching for some big long dormant franchise revival for a beloved series.

People need to stop hyping themselves up with unrealistic expectations.

Exactly

 

[Glaciacott]

What were people expecting, honestly?

I only tuned in out of curiosity for what this game is by Wayforward. I'm not reaching for some big long dormant franchise revival for a beloved series.

People need to stop hyping themselves up with unrealistic expectations.

Honestly, even assuming something more along the lines of standard WayForward fare, this announcement was extremely disappointing. Given how many cool games they've done as well as how many inventive licensed games they have worked on (DuckTales Remastered, The Mummy Demastered), it was not unreasonable to hold high hopes for a new WayForward game of something they've never handled.
Instead we got a licensed game also being worked on by WB games (ew), for a non-video game franchise that is aimed at kids and is currently extremely niche.

I can understand people being responsible for hyping themselves too much if they expected wario land or metroid, but people expecting a decent game with wide appeal from hearing WayForward is not an unrealistic expectation. And one that obviously Nintendo took advantage off to get people in the stream.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So about the Bakugan and Pokémon Unite things

Why did Pokémon Unite have its own stream? Why did Nintendo tweet about @WayForward’s latest project?

Marketing agreements.

Companies pay for screen time. It’s not a conspiracy, even if announcements don’t live up to expectations. pic.twitter.com/GbVnFoeic3

— Robert Sephazon (@Sephazon) July 10, 2020

 

[N3ON]

What were people expecting, honestly?

I only tuned in out of curiosity for what this game is by Wayforward. I'm not reaching for some big long dormant franchise revival for a beloved series.

People need to stop hyping themselves up with unrealistic expectations.

Were you expecting Bakugan?

Yeah people shouldn't have expected a new title in some renowned series but that's a far cry from a seemingly budget licensed title, the type of which Nintendo almost never showcases. Even in, like, their sizzle reels.

An unoriginal but fitting quote; I had no expectations and I was still disappointed.

So about the Bakugan and Pokémon Unite things

Why did Pokémon Unite have its own stream? Why did Nintendo tweet about @WayForward’s latest project?

Marketing agreements.

Companies pay for screen time. It’s not a conspiracy, even if announcements don’t live up to expectations. pic.twitter.com/GbVnFoeic3

— Robert Sephazon (@Sephazon) July 10, 2020

Yeah I'm sure that's... uh... money well spent for ol' Bakugan...

Well, godspeed to them and their gambit.

 

[Garteam]

Had anyone noticed that Paper Mario The Origami King game was leaked a week before its release date?

Spoiler

You get to fight against Bowser and Olly at the end of the game while they are fighting each other, not sure if Bowser was fighting against Olly just to save Peach.

Source?

 

[Calamitas]

So about the Bakugan and Pokémon Unite things

Why did Pokémon Unite have its own stream? Why did Nintendo tweet about @WayForward’s latest project?

Marketing agreements.

Companies pay for screen time. It’s not a conspiracy, even if announcements don’t live up to expectations. pic.twitter.com/GbVnFoeic3

— Robert Sephazon (@Sephazon) July 10, 2020

"This video Paper Mario gameplay showcase is brought to you by Raid Shadow Legends Wayforward's Bakugan Game!"

 

[kevinthedot]

So about the Bakugan and Pokémon Unite things

Why did Pokémon Unite have its own stream? Why did Nintendo tweet about @WayForward’s latest project?

Marketing agreements.

Companies pay for screen time. It’s not a conspiracy, even if announcements don’t live up to expectations. pic.twitter.com/GbVnFoeic3

— Robert Sephazon (@Sephazon) July 10, 2020

"This video Paper Mario gameplay showcase is brought to you by Raid Shadow Legends Wayforward's Bakugan Game!"

Yeah, that's actually probably the case. My money would be on both of them being things that Tencent and WB paid Nintendo to add to their E3 presentation. Since E3 got canceled, they probably adjusted the contracts to allow them to keep the money as long as they gave these things their own special treatment.

This actually may feed into the idea of us getting a Direct sometime soon. Perhaps Nintendo is trimming all the E3 fat from the presentation they were going to give and are going to then reserve all the major Nintendo focused announcements for a larger direct to try and lead into the rest of the year.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

snip

As an aside, if you're ever wondering "why wasn't X game featured in this direct? It's really good and I think more people ought to know about it." this is why. Directs, as with all advertising, are pay to enter affairs. If the game devs or publishers can't spare the change, or it's not in the financial interest of Nintendo to accommodate them, the game isn't getting into the direct.

This is probably why indie directs are a thing. Nintendo's clearly been encouraging indie growth on their platforms for a while now, so they want to advertise games they think will make a good return. So they set aside a space where they're less likely to be overshadowed by AAA games. At the same time, there's probably an expectation that indie showcases will get fewer eyes typically than a full direct (after a cursory glance, indie showcases have gotten anywhere from a fifth to a tenth of the views of an average direct, ~5m), so they can lower the barrier to entry. Or they can justify a lower asking price when accounting for all the other money they make. In any case, this gives an opportunity to small/indie studios that don't have marketing budgets in the league of small nations.

Yet even still, there's definitely a curation of indies shown. Part of the reason is there's only a limited time in a direct. Another is demographics. iirc, there are differences in indie showcases (and directs) in the games they show between regions, usually preferring indies made in the same region (or, y'know, won't include games not releasing in that region). But even then, most of the titles featured are from established franchises or companies with relatively more capital and a greater likelihood for a good return.

 

[Dr.DonPatch64]

Amiibos for joker and hero are going to be released in the Fall, that's probably where the next reveal will happen.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

After finishing my Platinum run of Kingdom Hearts 2FM (Nintendo really needs an achievement system), I present to you Part 3 of:

The Second Square Enix Character Argument​

To catch up on the series so far, please refer to:

• Part 1: Introduction, Nier, and Gex
• Part 2: Final Fantasy, Lara Croft, and Crono

This time, I'll be covering Sora and Geno, two of the most popular characters in speculation in two of the most...peculiar states.

Or rather, I was supposed to cover Sora and Geno.

However, both are phenomenally long reads (the Geno essay is slightly over 2,000 words, and the Sora essay is over 3,500 words at about 90% completion), so I decided to break them up into individual parts to lessen reader fatigue and encourage discussion on each character individually. I'll be posting the Geno essay first as it's been complete for about a day or so, and I'll follow it up with the Sora essay in a day or two. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I think in the long run it'll be better for reading and discussion.

Spoiler: Geno

Let's talk about everyone's favorite (or least favorite) puppet. Debuting in 1997's Super Mario RPG, Geno has certainly made an impact on the wider Smash fandom.

I'll begin this essay with an admission. After reviewing my previous writing on Geno in 2018's Ultimate Square Enix Character Argument, I noticed the incredibly biased nature of my argument. As such, in writing this essay I consulted with some friends of mine who support Geno and bounced ideas off of them so as to be less biased and more objective. I'd really like to give credit to Luigi The President and Shotostar for their help here.

All this being said, in this essay intend to be objective towards Geno and his chances, which means looking at both the good and the bad. If you're looking for an essay purely extolling the virtues of Geno, I'd advise you close this spoiler tab now.

Acknowledgements out of the way, I intend to structure this essay in two distinct sections: The Good and The Not So Good. The Good section consists of points purely in favor of Geno's inclusion, whereas The Not So Good section consists of points that may be in favor of Geno's inclusion, detrimental to Geno's inclusion, or could simply mean nothing at all.

The Good

Let's begin with the obvious: Fan demand. Fan demand is by far the strongest point in favor of Geno. Following the reveal of Ridley, a long time fan request since Brawl, demand for King K. Rool and Geno, the other two members of the "Holy Trinity" of impossible requests increased. With K. Rool's reveal, fan demand for Geno skyrocketed. He consistently scores high on fan polls, and been around as a request since at least the Brawl days, if not earlier. His fan demand is so great to the point where Sakurai directly acknowledged as such in his 2016 Nintendo Dream interview, saying:

He’s very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests.

At the very least, Sakurai was aware of significant demand for Geno in 2016 (when his popularity was arguably at an all time low), and I highly doubt he wouldn't be aware of the significant demand for him now. And when Ultimate seems to be gunning for popular fan requests, including those primarily from the West like Ridley and Banjo, it's not difficult to understand why people would think Geno is in line for inclusion based largely on his popularity.

Speaking of Sakurai's 2016 Nintendo Dream interview, he also had this to say on Geno:

To tell the truth, it’s [adding Geno as a Mii Costume] because I wanted Geno to be a playable character. He has a gun for a hand, and I think he fits in really well with Smash.

Geno is quite possibly the only character Sakurai has expressed an active interest in having as a unique, playable character. He even cites the Rule of Cool reasoning of him having a gun hand. This is also one of the few points of evidence for Geno that simply can't be disputed. It's a rather strong point in his favor, especially when paired with the acknowledgement of his fan demand.

Additionally, there's a point to be made about Super Mario RPG's longevity as a singular game. While certainly not as prominent as its contemporaries Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6, it's stayed around in the form of rereleases and mentions from Nintendo. It was released on both Wii (which was the first release of SMRPGI in Europe) and Wii U Virtual Console, and most recently appeared on the SNES Mini. The original game did relatively well sales wise, selling around 2 million units by 1997, which is rather impressive if you ask me. It is unknown how many units the virtual console re-releases sold, but the SNES Classic Edition has sold 5 million units as of 2018, which, while not dedicated sales numbers for SMRPG, at the very least signify a significant install base that has been exposed to SMRPG in one way or another. Furthermore, this tweet from Nintendo of America and a question alluding to Geno in this tie-in quiz for The Game Awards show that SMRPG has stayed in the zeitgeist of gaming over the years. While it's uncertain how this ties into Geno's chances for Smash, I believe this point is important nonetheless.

Finally, one of the stronger arguments for Geno is the relative ease with which Nintendo could hypothetically acquire him for. There's already precedent for negotiating with Square for Geno in Smash, both for Sm4sh and Ultimate. The game's composer, Yoko Shinomura, has also composed for Smash before, which could make music negotiations another relatively straightforward process. However, I personally believe this to be too large of a hypothetical to be a significant point, as other Square Enix characters like Neku or a character from the Bravely series could also be relatively straightforward in negotiations, which would mean this is not a distinct advantage Geno has. However, given how widely this point is cited and how it largely holds up to what we know, I believe it's worth mentioning as a net positive for Geno.

The Not So Good

I'll be using this section to discuss other points in the discourse surrounding Geno that could mean something, either good or bad, or mean absolutely nothing at all.

Let's start with an addendum to the point on Geno's fan demand. A lot of people equivocate Geno to Banjo, or at least paint the two in a similar light. This makes sense. Both are large fan requests that were seemingly impossible for one reason or another. However, with Banjo's inclusion in Fighters Pass 1, a lot of people think Geno is sure to follow. However, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

A large part of Banjo's inclusion was the long relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft on Rare IPs and Phil Spencer's active support of Banjo in Smash. There was an established precedent of Nintendo and Microsoft working together to get Rare games on Nintendo platforms, which facilitated Banjo's inclusion in Smash. While Nintendo and Square Enix have worked together to re-release SMRPG a couple of times, I am unsure whether their relationship in this regard is analogous to Nintendo and Microsoft's in this case.

Furthermore, Phil Spencer's support of Banjo allowed for Nintendo to get Banjo specifically, instead of Minecraft Steve or Master Chief, both of which are seemingly better picks from a business/promotional aspect. It is unknown if such support exists for Geno within Square Enix, and I would honestly doubt the existence of such. Taking a look at Square Enix's crossovers, you'll notice a lot of them are promotional in nature. Noctis in Tekken promoted Final Fantasy XV, Behemoth in Monster Hunter World promoted Final Fantasy XIV, 2B in Soulcalubur 6 promoted Nier Automata, and Hero in Smash promoted Dragon Quest XIS: Echoes of an Elusive Age Definitive Edition for the Nintendo Switchtm. Comparatively, Geno has no promotional value for Square Enix, nor will he anytime soon if this remark from SMRPG director Yoshihiko Maekawa is to be trusted. If presented with the opportunity to negotiate for another character in Smash, I don't know if Square Enix would willingly decide to add Geno, who has no promotional value to the company, over another character from one of their active series.

Related to this, the question of why Geno hasn't gotten into Smash at this point is one worth mentioning. In the aforementioned Nintendo Dream interview, Sakurai says this:

During Brawl, I thought it would be great if I could add him, but in the end it didn’t become a reality.

Why exactly things didn't pan out is unstated, but taking a look at Square Enix's crossovers, it's not completely unreasonable to think Square Enix has some reason for not including Geno as a unique, playable character. his where the Spirit, online icon, and Mii Costume could come in: ways of satisfying fans while working around Square Enix's unwillingness to give full rights to Geno in Smash. This could be a non-point, however, and I'll acknowledge that the reason Geno didn't get in to Brawl could be due to another reason, such as the infamous time constraints that Brawl's development suffered from. Regardless, the point still stands that Geno has yet to be added when Pac-Man, Villager, Miis, and even Ridley have all made the jump to playable status despite being denied for one reason or another, which, at least to me, seems suspect.

Speaking of Mii Costumes, it's definitely a good sign that Geno's has yet to show up, especially when a Square Enix character has already come as a DLC character. However, as of right now a majority of Mii Costumes have returned from Sm4sh, and this time around it seems like they're not always tied to the Challenger Pack they release alongside. After all, people though the lack of Heihachi's Mii Costume meant good things for his chances, and then this happened:

Spoiler: Large image

The fact that Geno's Mii Costume has yet to appear, while seemingly good for his chances, is not a definite point in his favor.

Discussing Mii Costumes, it's also important to discuss premium Mii Costumes. Sans, Cuphead, and most recently Vault Boy have all been added as Mii Costumes to both expand the large crossover that is Ultimate and satisfy fan demands that aren't as realizable for one reason or another. It's feasible that Geno, who has already received a Mii Costume that surely performed well, could simply see an upgraded, premium Mii Costume to satisfy his large fan demand.

I'm not going to seriously acknowledge Cacomallow because it's not worth serious discussion. It's been recreated, showing that it could easily just be a mod, and Nintendo still hasn't taken it down despite taking videos down for less. I figured I would at least mention it as some Geno fans still use it as a point in his favor. It's not.

Finally, let's talk about the argument that Spirits disconfirm. With Min Min's recent confirmation, it seems the floodgates have opened on Spirit upgrades from the base game, of which Geno is one. Great news!

Right? Not necessarily.

It's well known that the inclusion of an ARMS character was a special request from Nintendo that Sakurai took on. In this case, a Spirit upgrade is almost necessary, as not using the Spirits included in the base game would lock Sakurai out of the two mascots of the series, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, as well as two of the most popular characters in the game, Min Min and Ninjara. Not upgrading would have been far too limiting in this case, so to fulfill Nintendo's request, he went with Min Min, the most popular character and the personal favorite of ARMS producter Kosuke Yabuki. So, while it seems like base Spirits are back on the table, it could also only be in special cases such as this. As of right now there's not enough evidence to show that Min Min is the establishment of the rule, rather than an exception.

In Closing

Geno is truly in a peculiar state. He's one of the most popular characters in Speculation, and he's appeared in Smash in one for or another twice now. However, despite this, there seems to be some force that's keeping him from making the jump to fully playable. He's truly 50/50 in my opinion, as there are as many points in his favor as there are against him. It ultimately comes down to what Square Enix decides. Do they let Nintendo appeal to core fans with Geno, or go for more promotion of their existing series? Personally, I believe if faced with the choice Square Enix would go for the latter, especially considering that they can still appeal to core Nintendo fans with characters like Neku or someone from the Bravely series. I'll acknowledge that they could certainly go for the former though, and if Nintendo wants to appeal to core fans, which they definitely seem prone to do, Geno would be a great pick to do so and I'd call his chances even better if this occurs.

It depends on a lot of factors however, and while I personally doubt it, it could really go either way.

Following the Sora essay I'll wrap up the series by discussing the Bravely Default series and Neku. I'll also provide some closing thoughts before compiling all the essays together in a large master post. We're nearing the end, so I hope you're enjoyed so far and continue to enjoy going forward!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly the notion that Nintendo was paid a decent amount of money to give Unite and Bakugan their own showcases is far more of a relief to me than the idea that they could look at either project and conclude they were worthy of their individual spotlight. Shameless shilling may not be ideal, but at least there's financial logic to promoting things that appear that underwhelming.

 

[Deleted member]

After finishing my Platinum run of Kingdom Hearts 2FM (Nintendo really needs an achievement system), I present to you Part 3 of:

The Second Square Enix Character Argument​

To catch up on the series so far, please refer to:

• Part 1: Introduction, Nier, and Gex
• Part 2: Final Fantasy, Lara Croft, and Crono

This time, I'll be covering Sora and Geno, two of the most popular characters in speculation in two of the most...peculiar states.

Or, I was supposed to cover Sora and Geno.

However, both are phenomenally long reads (the Geno essay is slightly over 2,000 words, and the Sora essay is over 3,500 words at about 90% completion), so I decided to break them up into individual parts to lessen reader fatigue and encourage discussion on each character individually. I'll be posting the Geno essay first as it's been complete for about a day or so, and I'll follow it up with the Sora essay in a day or two. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I think in the long run it'll be better for reading and discussion.

Spoiler: Geno

Let's talk about everyone's favorite (or least favorite) puppet. Debuting in 1997's Super Mario RPG, Geno has certainly made an impact on the wider Smash fandom.

I'll begin this essay with an admission. After reviewing my previous writing on Geno in 2018's Ultimate Square Enix Character Argument, I noticed the incredibly biased nature of my argument. As such, in writing this essay I consulted with some friends of mine who support Geno and bounced ideas off of them so as to be less biased and more objective. I'd really like to give credit to Luigi The President and Shotostar for their help here.

All this being said, in this essay intend to be objective towards Geno and his chances, which means looking at both the good and the bad. If you're looking for an essay purely extolling the virtues of Geno, I'd advise you close this spoiler tab now.

Acknowledgements out of the way, I intend to structure this essay in two distinct sections: The Good and The Not So Good. The Good section consists of points purely in favor of Geno's inclusion, whereas The Not So Good section consists of points that may be in favor of Geno's inclusion, detrimental to Geno's inclusion, or could simply mean nothing at all.

The Good

Let's begin with the obvious: Fan demand. Fan demand is by far the strongest point in favor of Geno. Following the reveal of Ridley, a long time fan request since Brawl, demand for King K. Rool and Geno, the other two members of the "Holy Trinity" of impossible requests increased. With K. Rool's reveal, fan demand for Geno skyrocketed. He consistently scores high on fan polls, and been around as a request since at least the Brawl days, if not earlier. His fan demand is so great to the point where Sakurai directly acknowledged as such in his 2016 Nintendo Dream interview, saying:




At the very least, Sakurai was aware of significant demand for Geno in 2016 (when his popularity was arguably at an all time low), and I highly doubt he wouldn't be aware of the significant demand for him now. And when Ultimate seems to be gunning for popular fan requests, including those primarily from the West like Ridley and Banjo, it's not difficult to understand why people would think Geno is in line for inclusion based largely on his popularity.

Speaking of Sakurai's 2016 Nintendo Dream interview, he also had this to say on Geno:




Geno is quite possibly the only character Sakurai has expressed an active interest in having as a unique, playable character. He even cites the Rule of Cool reasoning of him having a gun hand. This is also one of the few points of evidence for Geno that simply can't be disputed. It's a rather strong point in his favor, especially when paired with the acknowledgement of his fan demand.

Additionally, there's a point to be made about Super Mario RPG's longevity as a singular game. While certainly not as prominent as its contemporaries Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6, it's stayed around in the form of rereleases and mentions from Nintendo. It was released on both Wii (which was the first release of SMRPGI in Europe) and Wii U Virtual Console, and most recently appeared on the SNES Mini. The original game did relatively well sales wise, selling around 2 million units by 1997, which is rather impressive if you ask me. It is unknown how many units the virtual console re-releases sold, but the SNES Classic Edition has sold 5 million units as of 2018, which, while not dedicated sales numbers for SMRPG, at the very least signify a significant install base that has been exposed to SMRPG in one way or another. Furthermore, this tweet from Nintendo of America and a question alluding to Geno in this tie-in quiz for The Game Awards show that SMRPG has stayed in the zeitgeist of gaming over the years. While it's uncertain how this ties into Geno's chances for Smash, I believe this point is important nonetheless.

Finally, one of the stronger arguments for Geno is the relative ease with which Nintendo could hypothetically acquire him for. There's already precedent for negotiating with Square for Geno in Smash, both for Sm4sh and Ultimate. The game's composer, Yoko Shinomura, has also composed for Smash before, which could make music negotiations another relatively straightforward process. However, I personally believe this to be too large of a hypothetical to be a significant point, as other Square Enix characters like Neku or a character from the Bravely series could also be relatively straightforward in negotiations, which would mean this is not a distinct advantage Geno has. However, given how widely this point is cited and how it largely holds up to what we know, I believe it's worth mentioning as a net positive for Geno.

The Not So Good

I'll be using this section to discuss other points in the discourse surrounding Geno that could mean something, either good or bad, or mean absolutely nothing at all.

Let's start with an addendum to the point on Geno's fan demand. A lot of people equivocate Geno to Banjo, or at least paint the two in a similar light. This makes sense. Both are large fan requests that were seemingly impossible for one reason or another. However, with Banjo's inclusion in Fighters Pass 1, a lot of people think Geno is sure to follow. However, I wouldn't be too sure of that.

A large part of Banjo's inclusion was the long relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft on Rare IPs and Phil Spencer's active support of Banjo in Smash. There was an established precedent of Nintendo and Microsoft working together to get Rare games on Nintendo platforms, which facilitated Banjo's inclusion in Smash. While Nintendo and Square Enix have worked together to re-release SMRPG a couple of times, I am unsure whether their relationship in this regard is analogous to Nintendo and Microsoft's in this case.

Furthermore, Phil Spencer's support of Banjo allowed for Nintendo to get Banjo specifically, instead of Minecraft Steve or Master Chief, both of which are seemingly better picks from a business/promotional aspect. It is unknown if such support exists for Geno within Square Enix, and I would honestly doubt the existence of such. Taking a look at Square Enix's crossovers, you'll notice a lot of them are promotional in nature. Noctis in Tekken promoted Final Fantasy XV, Behemoth in Monster Hunter World promoted Final Fantasy XIV, 2B in Soulcalubur 6 promoted Nier Automata, and Hero in Smash promoted Dragon Quest XIS: Echoes of an Elusive Age Definitive Edition for the Nintendo Switchtm. Comparatively, Geno has no promotional value for Square Enix, nor will he anytime soon if this remark from SMRPG director Yoshihiko Maekawa is to be trusted. If presented with the opportunity to negotiate for another character in Smash, I don't know if Square Enix would willingly decide to add Geno, who has no promotional value to the company, over another character from one of their active series.

Related to this, the question of why Geno hasn't gotten into Smash at this point is one worth mentioning. In the aforementioned Nintendo Dream interview, Sakurai says this:




Why exactly things didn't pan out is unstated, but taking a look at Square Enix's crossovers, it's not completely unreasonable to think Square Enix has some reason for not including Geno as a unique, playable character. his where the Spirit, online icon, and Mii Costume could come in: ways of satisfying fans while working around Square Enix's unwillingness to give full rights to Geno in Smash. This could be a non-point, however, and I'll acknowledge that the reason Geno didn't get in to Brawl could be due to another reason, such as the infamous time constraints that Brawl's development suffered from. Regardless, the point still stands that Geno has yet to be added when Pac-Man, Villager, Miis, and even Ridley have all made the jump to playable status despite being denied for one reason or another, which, at least to me, seems suspect.

Speaking of Mii Costumes, it's definitely a good sign that Geno's has yet to show up, especially when a Square Enix character has already come as a DLC character. However, as of right now a majority of Mii Costumes have returned from Sm4sh, and this time around it seems like they're not always tied to the Challenger Pack they release alongside. After all, people though the lack of Heihachi's Mii Costume meant good things for his chances, and then this happened:

Spoiler: Large image

View attachment 277966

The fact that Geno's Mii Costume has yet to appear, while seemingly good for his chances, is not a definite point in his favor.

Discussing Mii Costumes, it's also important to discuss premium Mii Costumes. Sans, Cuphead, and most recently Vault Boy have all been added as Mii Costumes to both expand the large crossover that is Ultimate and satisfy fan demands that aren't as realizable for one reason or another. It's feasible that Geno, who has already received a Mii Costume that surely performed well, could simply see an upgraded, premium Mii Costume to satisfy his large fan demand.

I'm not going to seriously acknowledge Cacomallow because it's not worth serious discussion. It's been recreated, showing that it could easily just be a mod, and Nintendo still hasn't taken it down despite taking videos down for less. I figured I would at least mention it as some Geno fans still use it as a point in his favor. It's not.

Finally, let's talk about the argument that Spirits disconfirm. With Min Min's recent confirmation, it seems the floodgates have opened on Spirit upgrades from the base game, of which Geno is one. Great news!

Right? Not necessarily.

It's well known that the inclusion of an ARMS character was a special request from Nintendo that Sakurai took on. In this case, a Spirit upgrade is almost necessary, as not using the Spirits included in the base game would lock Sakurai out of the two mascots of the series, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, as well as two of the most popular characters in the game, Min Min and Ninjara. Not upgrading would have been far too limiting in this case, so to fulfill Nintendo's request, he went with Min Min, the most popular character and the personal favorite of ARMS producter Kosuke Yabuki. So, while it seems like base Spirits are back on the table, it could also only be in special cases such as this. As of right now there's not enough evidence to show that Min Min is the establishment of the rule, rather than an exception.

In Closing

Geno is truly in a peculiar state. He's one of the most popular characters in Speculation, and he's appeared in Smash in one for or another twice now. However, despite this, there seems to be some force that's keeping him from making the jump to fully playable. He's truly 50/50 in my opinion, as there are as many points in his favor as there are against him. It ultimately comes down to what Square Enix decides. Do they let Nintendo appeal to core fans with Geno, or go for more promotion of their existing series? Personally, I believe if faced with the choice Square Enix would go for the latter, especially considering that they can still appeal to core Nintendo fans with characters like Neku or someone from the Bravely series. I'll acknowledge that they could certainly go for the former though, and if Nintendo wants to appeal to core fans, which they definitely seem prone to do, Geno would be a great pick to do so and I'd call his chances even better if this occurs.

It depends on a lot of factors however, and while I personally doubt it, it could really go either way.

Following the Sora essay I'll wrap up the series by the Bravely Default series and Neku. I'll also provide some closing thoughts before compiling all the essays together in a large master post. We're nearing the end, so I hope you're enjoyed so far and continue to enjoy going forward!

nice post probably. lot of words. good sources. by the way do you perchance have a shulk amiibo just asking out of curiosity

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

nice post probably. lot of words. good sources. by the way do you perchance have a shulk amiibo just asking out of curiosity

Indeed I do have a Shulk amiibo. Original print copy too.

Kind of peeved I missed out on the better reprint (it's the same case with my Marth amiibo, which I bought on launch day of Smash for Wii U).

 

[Deleted member]

Indeed I do have a Shulk amiibo. Original print copy too.

Kind of peeved I missed out on the better reprint (it's the same case with my Marth amiibo, which I bought on launch day of Smash for Wii U).

ok cool give it to me.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

ok cool give it to me.

Sorry faygo. I love you, but it's not happening.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry faygo. I love you, but it's not happening.

View attachment 277973

life is nothing but a series of misfortunes and woes culminating in a slow and miserable end

 

[StrangeKitten]

What were people expecting, honestly?

I only tuned in out of curiosity for what this game is by Wayforward. I'm not reaching for some big long dormant franchise revival for a beloved series.

People need to stop hyping themselves up with unrealistic expectations.

I didn't really have expectations. I figured it wasn't gonna be something I would love, but I'd go "huh, neat" and maybe be interested enough in watching the gameplay even if I was unlikely to ever get the game. But the game shown was just so, so bad. The gameplay and environments looked super dull, I saw like three different monster designs across multiple battles, and worst of all, the game looks terrible graphically. It's bad enough to be a disappointment even if you kept your expectations in check.

Indeed I do have a Shulk amiibo. Original print copy too.

Kind of peeved I missed out on the better reprint (it's the same case with my Marth amiibo, which I bought on launch day of Smash for Wii U).

Yay Shulk Amiibo gang cuz I have one too! (You can't have mine either, faygo. Sorry)

 

[Deleted member]

Yay Shulk Amiibo gang cuz I have one too! (You can't have mine either, faygo. Sorry)

suffering

 

[Shroob]

I knew there'd be a crazy kickback seeing the news.

I remember people thinking it'd be something like Castlevania or Ducktales and getting super excited over it.



And then, Nintendo asked us if we remember Bakugan existed.


Never, ever change, Nintendo. Never change.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

In light of that Nintendo Treehouse announcement... yeah, the elusive July 20th Direct can't come soon enough.

 

[CureParfait]

Inspired by this tweet...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If you had to choose one swordfighter for Fighters Pass 2, who would you pick? Why would you pick them? (you don't necessarily have to explain why, but it would help to add more to the post instead of just posting a character name)

I realize that there's some disdain for adding more swordfighters, though I don't know how much of it is due to the Fire Emblem characters in Smash, where it seems like every single one of them has to have a sword despite the amount of other weapon options in Fire Emblem, or if there's some other reason.

Also, I'm surprised that 2B isn't in the image, and yet Arthur is even though (from what I've read about Ghosts 'n' Goblins) he doesn't use a sword.

EDIT: to be clear, you aren't limited to the choices that are in this image.

Berserker from Dungeon Fighter Online. Even though he'll be censored a bit but, him taking damage while attacking is an interesting mechanic to see in Smash.