Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[DaybreakHorizon]

peasants, the lot of you

PEASANTS, I SAY

Spoiler

View attachment 277292

Flyboy we got another one.

I've written about Don-Chan in the past, and to be honest I'd pop off so hard if he got in Smash. He's such an out there choice but he also makes a surprising amount of sense, and I'd love to see why Sakurai could do with his moveset.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

peasants, the lot of you

PEASANTS, I SAY

Spoiler

View attachment 277292

Honestly even if I really want a rhythm game rep I just can't imagine how he would fight. I've tried to look for fan made moveset but found nothing. Honestly I love the Taiko games and it is a huge franchise (especially in Japan), and the switch version sold very well and have some crossover with Nintendo so I could see it happening.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I dont want Agumon

I want Omnimon

 

[Cosmic77]

I've already this a few times in this thread, but I don't think Heihachi really benefited any character, especially not the ones from Namco. If there was a Namco character in this pass, then why not release Heihachi then instead of with Min Min?

It's possible the Namco character will be like Hero and only have Mii costumes related to its franchise (that or Nintendo doesn't really care if content from third-parties is released all at once), but I don't think the Heihachi costume was as simple as, "He's dead! Now everyone else has a better chance!"

 

[Speed Weed]

View attachment 277293

Flyboy we got another one.

I've written about Don-Chan in the past, and to be honest I'd pop off so hard if he got in Smash. He's such an out there choice but he also makes a surprising amount of sense, and I'd love to see why Sakurai could do with his moveset.

honestly i'm not even a diehard taiko no tatsujin super fan or anything

i just like him because he is a funny little drum man

 

[SharkLord]

honestly i'm not even a diehard taiko no tatsujin super fan or anything

i just like him because he is a funny little drum man

Don't know much about him either. I think he somehow managed to get in a crossover with Kirby, Ace Attorney, and Touhou somehow...? Or maybe it was someone else...

 

[Speed Weed]

Don't know much about him either. I think he somehow managed to get in a crossover with Kirby, Ace Attorney, and Touhou somehow...? Or maybe it was someone else...

yeah i'm pretty sure he's crossed over with all these and many, many more

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Don't know much about him either. I think he somehow managed to get in a crossover with Kirby, Ace Attorney, and Touhou somehow...? Or maybe it was someone else...

He's also in the Mario kart arcade game!

 

[SharkLord]

yeah i'm pretty sure he's crossed over with all these and many, many more

He's also in the Mario kart arcade game!

If he's crossed over this much, I'm beginning to think he'd at least get a Spirit.
Either that, or his next game just gets a ton of Smash remixes in it.

 

[Curious Villager]

If he's crossed over this much, I'm beginning to think he'd at least get a Spirit.

Doesn't he already appear in Pac-Man's taunt roulette thingy?

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Doesn't he already appear in Pac-Man's taunt roulette thingy?

Yes he does, but considering that spirits now don't deconfirm I think the Pac-man roulette characters could be possible if they want.

 

[Guynamednelson]

nightmare from soul calibur which we assumed was for the last character in fighter pass 1

He didn't actually mean CP5 would be Nightmare from SC. He meant that it would be a nightmare for this community.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Don't know much about him either. I think he somehow managed to get in a crossover with Kirby, Ace Attorney, and Touhou somehow...? Or maybe it was someone else...

No, that was Don-chan. Monster Hunter, Yokai Watch, and Assassination Classroom (an anime series) were also in that crossover.

Really wild if you think about it.

There have also been a lot of songs from different franchises in the Taiko no Tatsujin series, including, but not limited to: Undertale, Mario, Kirby, Splatoon, Vocaloid/Hatsune Miku, Monster Hunter, Ace Attorney, Pokémon, Assassination Classroom, The Irregular at Magic High, My Hero Academia, Re:Zero, Madoka Magica, and Evangelion.

 

[Deleted member]

No, that was Don-chan. Monster Hunter, Yokai Watch, and Assassination Classroom (an anime series) were also in that crossover.

Really wild if you think about it.

There have also been a lot of songs from different franchises in the Taiko no Tatsujin series, including, but not limited to: Undertale, Mario, Kirby, Splatoon, Vocaloid/Hatsune Miku, Monster Hunter, Ace Attorney, Pokémon, Assassination Classroom, The Irregular at Magic High, My Hero Academia, Re:Zero, and Evangelion.

Excuse me, how could you leave out the best one?

 

[StormC]

At this point if Namco is getting a character my guess is Lloyd. I don’t feel too strongly about it though. For some reason I have less confidence in Chosen Undead. I really doubt we get Nightmare or anything like that either.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Excuse me, how could you leave out the best one?

What are you talking about? I mention Madoka Magica in my post. I totally didn't edit that in. It was there from the start.

Anyways, I present the next part of:

The Second Square Enix Character Argument
​

To catch up on the series and read about 2B and the Nier series, click here.

Spoiler: Final Fantasy

Similar to my last argument post, I'm going to be discussing Final Fantasy as a series since there are so many characters in the series.

Final Fantasy is by and far Square Enix's largest series, surpassing around 154 million units sold as of this April. For reference, that puts it in between Minecraft and Grand Theft Auto V in terms of lifetime sales, and Number 10 on the list of best-selling video game series (counting Mario subseries as one). IGN made a neat little infographic (albeit with some incorrect information) to compare the sales of Final Fantasy to Square Enix's other major RPG series:

The Final Fantasy series is incredibly large, and shows no signs of stopping soon. Mobile series tie-in Final Fantasy Brave Exvius recently received a spin-off that released worldwide in March, the series has seen a large amount of games prominently ported to the Nintendo Switch, with a remaster of Crystal Chronicles coming to the system alongside PS4 soon. I think something else big happened too, but I seem to be forgetting...

Spoiler

Oh yeah. That happened. And it was huge. 3.5 million units sold in three days huge.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake was one of the largest game releases of the year, and is arguably one of the largest game releases of the generation given the demand for a remake of Final Fantasy 7 that's developed over the years. I'd put the game up there with Kingdom Hearts 3 and Half Life: Alyx given the intense demand and large expectations surrounding it. Despite some controversy over the ending (typical Normura, amirite?), it did incredibly well, and I'd be incredibly surprised if they haven't already started on the next part.

Previously I spoke on potential Final Fantasy characters as follows:

Bartz Klauser
Protagonist of Final Fantasy V for the SNES, mentioned within the same interview as Cloud by Sakurai, who remarked that a moveset about switching jobs could be "interesting." Sakurai has previously dropped things within interviews that were prominent, such as how Castlevania impacted him similar to the Legend of Zelda and how excited he was to play Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow prior to Simon's reveal.

Onion Knight
Mentioned within the same interview as Bartz, but isn't as likely given that his game was Japan-exclusive until 2006.

Terra Branford
A little bit of personal speculation on my part, but given how Final Fantasy 6 is often held as one of the best JRPGs of all time and is prominently on a Nintendo console, it would make sense for her to be our second Final Fantasy pick.

Sephiroth
Final Fantasy 7 is already on the table given Cloud's inclusion, so it'd be relatively easy to secure the character rights for him. Sephiroth is one of the most iconic villains in all of gaming history, and anyone who knows about Cloud will know about his age old rival Sephiroth.

For the most part those statements stand. However, I would give a significant edge to Sephiroth, if only for the gigalith that is FF7R. Square Enix has every reason to capitalize on its success by including another Final Fantasy 7 character in Ultimate. Final Fantasy 7 is already on the table with Cloud's inclusion, which Sakurai and Normura had a great time working together on, so the established precedent of including a Final Fantasy 7 character in Smash (Ultimate) alongside the immense success of FF7R could definitely work out in Sephiroth's favor.

Of course, there are issues of music licensing, as Square Enix supposedly gives music rights to the compose which could complicate negotiations for music tracks. This seems most prominent in Cloud's pitiful 2 songs in Sm4sh and Ultimate. However, I believe on a full Fighters Pack budget and not negotiation for two games worth of content at once, this would be much less of a problem. Furthermore, Nintendo managed to negotiate through a similar scenario for Dragon Quest music with certified stingy old mantm Sugimura. Even if it's midis, they can manage.

There is also the potential issue that no precedent exists for a third party series having two unique characters. Instead of another Sonic character, Joker and Bayonetta got in, and so forth with other companies. While I believe fan rules exist to be broken, I also believe in precedent, and the lack of that in this case leads me to doubt the certainty of a Final Fantasy character.




Spoiler: Lara Croft

While certainly no Final Fantasy in terms of sales or impact, Tomb Raider certainly isn't a slouch. As of December 2019, the series has sold 80 million units according to a Square Enix press release, which makes it their third highest selling series, only behind Dragon Quest (which it's incredibly close to), and Final Fantasy (which it is not incredibly close to). In a 2017 interview, Square Enix CEO Yosuke Matsuda had this to say about the Tomb Raider series:

Tomb Raider is a very important title and very important piece of IP for us (Square Enix), and nothing has changed about that.

Furthermore, the legacy of Tomb Raider, or specifically it's main character Lara Croft is nothing to slouch at. The series, while not as active as it was in the past, has as spawned three movies, multiple soundtracks, a TV series, and multiple comic series and novelizations among other media. Furthermore, Lara Croft is by and far one of the most prominent female protagonists in gaming, and you'd be hard pressed to find a discussion or ranking of women in gaming without her. She even won 6 world records in the 2010 Guinness Book of World Records, wherein she was named "the most-famous and most-successful female video game character in the world" by the Guinness team. Her reputation really proceeds her, and I'd that Sakurai, known for his appreciation of gaming history, is more than aware of this.

The studio that develops the Tomb Raider series, Eidos Montreal, has an almost surprising amount of trust from Square Enix main, as they just recently launched a Research & Development studio alongside the company at large. Clearly, the Tomb Raider series is important to Square Enix, and I'd argue that Lara's reputation and that of her series makes her more than "worthy" for inclusion.

However, the big question I find myself asking about Lara's inclusion is the process of working with Eidos Montreal, a Western studio, and whether or not Sakurai and Nintendo would do such a thing when they could just work with Square Enix Japan.

Our only precedent for the inclusion of a Western third party character is Banjo & Kazooie, who, despite what one might think at first, was able to be obtained "quite easily" thanks to the support of Rare (and Microsoft). He speaks similarly of his collaboration with prominent Banjo-Kazooie composer Grant Kirkhope.

Now, before my readers hastily jump to a conclusion and open the floodgates for every possible Western character, I would like to note the key phrase above: thanks to the support of Rare (and Microsoft).

Rare and Microsoft were more than willing to work with Nintendo on Banjo's inclusion, and it's thanks to their active efforts that the collaboration was as successful as it was. I simply don't know if Square Enix and Eidos Interactive would be willing to do the same, nor do I know if Nintendo would be willing to negotiate for Laura when no significant fan demand exists like it did for Banjo.

Because of this, I personally doubt her chances the most out of the Square Enix characters I'll be writing on. However, I wouldn't be surprised nor disappointed to see her added as the next Square Enix character.

Spoiler: Crono

Let's address the elephant in the spoilers tag.

Chrono Trigger is iconic.

If there is one game that has stood the test of time and managed to keep itself in the cultural zeitgeist of gaming, it's Chrono Trigger.

Here's a couple of different posts talking about Chrono Trigger's legacy over the years (yes I know the last one is part of a Wikipedia article but it's pretty in-depth so I'm including it). It's often considered one of the best RPGs of all time, and more recently it topped a Japanese poll about the best game of the Heisei period, spanning 1989 to to April 2019. That's a lot of games that it beat out, including runners up Breath of the Wild and Nier Automata, two of the best games of the current console generation.

Previously, Crono suffered the same problem that Dragon Quest as a series did. It involves multiple different parties, including Yuji Horii's Armor Project and acclaimed animator Akira Toriyama. While thankfully there's no certified stingy old mantm Sugimiya to deal with, Nintendo would instead discuss music licensing with Nobuo Uematsu, who they (likely) previously worked with on Cloud's inclusion in Sm4sh and Ultimate, so negotiations would still be relatively complex.

Unlike Dragon Quest, however, the series did not have large momentum, and as such it was generally concluded that if those parties were to somehow be brought to the same table and negotiations were to go through, Hero would be added over Crono.

Good news! Hero is in Smash! All the parties have been brought to the table and things worked out!

Bad news. The Chrono series is still dead.



So, while Chrono Trigger is largely iconic and most all parties involved in the series have already been brought to the negotiation table, the series has no momentum whatsoever, so I personally doubt Square Enix would push for Crono's inclusion over a character from one of their more active series, which would have more promotional value.

Next time I'll be covering the two most popular Square Enix picks as of right now: Sora and Geno. I hope you look forward to it and do not flame me immediately afterwards!

 

[StormC]

DaybreakHorizon im gonna have to be that guy that points out the character is spelled Crono

sorry

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

I know that I'm late about the daisy glitch talk and the glitch adds 99% nothing about the upcoming dlc characters
but I found how that glitch happen on a twitter post.

Lil mac swung a charged punch and pulled an unrealistic anime moment where clothing explodes 😂

— HM_Artist (@hmartist_) July 3, 2020

what a strange explanation.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I know that I'm late about the daisy glitch talk and the glitch adds 99% nothing about the upcoming dlc characters
but I found how that glitch happen on a twitter post.

Lil mac swung a charged punch and pulled an unrealistic anime moment where clothing explodes 😂

— HM_Artist (@hmartist_) July 3, 2020

what a strange explanation.

While I'll be the first to bag on Glitch Theory, that sounds kinda similar to 2B and her self-destruct feature. Albeit, censored slightly.

Neato.

 

[frozolloyd]

I've already this a few times in this thread, but I don't think Heihachi really benefited any character, especially not the ones from Namco. If there was a Namco character in this pass, then why not release Heihachi then instead of with Min Min?

It's possible the Namco character will be like Hero and only have Mii costumes related to its franchise (that or Nintendo doesn't really care if content from third-parties is released all at once), but I don't think the Heihachi costume was as simple as, "He's dead! Now everyone else has a better chance!"

…because all of 2 3rd parties character actually follow this trend people are obsessed with. Like you pointed out, Hero didn't come with any mii costumes from square reps at all, just Dragon Quest costumes. Banjo Kazooie didn't come with ANY mii costumes from Microsoft at all. In fact the Cuphead mii costume, a Microsoft affiliated game, was released with Byleth. And to top it off, the last 2 DLC costume waves pretty much had no theme whatsoever in relation to the character they came with. I don't really see how this argument holds up, when only 2/4 3rd parties actually follow this trend.

And even if this trend didn't have big, notable exceptions, what is stopping them from adding new mii costumes from other Namco properties in his place? Considering that there is no representation in the game for Soul Caliber, Dark Souls, Digimon or Xenosaga, it would make sense to add some costumes from these franchises if they wanted a "themed" mii costume wave.

Oh and if we were to get a Bamco rep after a Bamco costume was revealed first, this wouldn't even be the first time this has ever happened. Back in Smash 4, the X hemet and Protoman helmet (released April 15th) were released 2 months before Ryu was even revealed (June 14th reveal). So its not like this would be the first time it ever happened.

 

[SharkLord]

While I'll be the first to bag on Glitch Theory, that sounds kinda similar to 2B and her self-destruct feature. Albeit, censored slightly.

Neato.

Yeah, I thought so too, though I'm not exactly sure how the hypothetical code for 2B managed to leak into Daisy. It's probably nothing, but who cares, tinfoil hat theories are fun!

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Aw yeah, come on 2B!

Even if this whole thing is a massive stretch. It still gives us something to discuss and speculate.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Dead or Alive 6 had battle damage that would break away pieces of clothing. It’s time boys.

 

[RileyXY1]

Glitch Theory has no basis whatsoever. Like a lot of these "fan theories".

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It’s clear which character this Daisy glitch is alluding to.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

admittedly I saw that explanation of the glitch I immediately thought of senran kagura because of the exploding clothes line.

While I'll be the first to bag on Glitch Theory, that sounds kinda similar to 2B and her self-destruct feature. Albeit, censored slightly.

Neato.

I can see that glitch being connected to 2B.

Dead or Alive 6 had battle damage that would break away pieces of clothing. It’s time boys.

that would be surprising.

It’s clear which character this Daisy glitch is alluding to. View attachment 277340

that would be ******* hilarious.

 

[Hinata]

https://t.co/MOsARrKQ06 pic.twitter.com/h9Lv3jZLwM

— ⛩️Reimu For Smash⛩️ (@ReimuForSmash) July 4, 2020

This is who the glitch is REALLY about.

 

[Will]

Glitch Theory has no basis whatsoever. Like a lot of these "fan theories".

it's a literal meme now. any poor sap who actually buys it must either be the most gullible person on the planet or really out of the loop

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Smash having a series of small glitches to build towards a reveal of Missingno as the next Pokemon rep is admittedly an inspired method of creating hype.

 

[KarneraMythos]

I've already this a few times in this thread, but I don't think Heihachi really benefited any character, especially not the ones from Namco. If there was a Namco character in this pass, then why not release Heihachi then instead of with Min Min?

It's possible the Namco character will be like Hero and only have Mii costumes related to its franchise (that or Nintendo doesn't really care if content from third-parties is released all at once), but I don't think the Heihachi costume was as simple as, "He's dead! Now everyone else has a better chance!"

Even with Heihachi out of the way, I don't have a lot of faith in any Namco rep. If anything, his exclusion as a Mii Outfit suggests that Sakurai isn't interested in placing another Namco rep apart from Pac-Man, who's already playable. I would like to be wrong since I'm pushing for KOS-MOS out of all the Namco properties, but I've been a jaded skeptic from day 1 and so far nothing really points in her favor (or any Namco character for that matter).

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I know that I'm late about the daisy glitch talk and the glitch adds 99% nothing about the upcoming dlc characters
but I found how that glitch happen on a twitter post.

Lil mac swung a charged punch and pulled an unrealistic anime moment where clothing explodes 😂

— HM_Artist (@hmartist_) July 3, 2020

what a strange explanation.

Do we know what causes the Ness glitch or is that totally random?

 

[Ben Holt]

Dead or Alive 6 had battle damage that would break away pieces of clothing. It’s time boys.

I declare you Hayabusa's biggest cheerleader.
I cannot remember where I heard this idea, but I hope that a playable Hayabusa would have a stance change mechanic. While in fighting stance, he would be a Ryu / Terry esque fighter and while in sword stance, he would have a completely different sword-based moveset.

 

[M@R!3]

I know that I'm late about the daisy glitch talk and the glitch adds 99% nothing about the upcoming dlc characters
but I found how that glitch happen on a twitter post.

Lil mac swung a charged punch and pulled an unrealistic anime moment where clothing explodes 😂

— HM_Artist (@hmartist_) July 3, 2020

what a strange explanation.

A2 Berserk/TRANS-AM glitch when?

 

[Guynamednelson]

About that "Min Min's model was recycled from ARMS" Tweet? Not so sure about that now. Take a look at the ARMS and Smash models' body textures. (Top is from ARMS, bottom is from SSBU.)

 

[SpectreJordan]

I don’t believe that Glitch Theory but this 2B talk has me like

 

[SharkLord]

I don’t believe that Glitch Theory but this 2B talk has me like
View attachment 277357

This is how I feel whenever something has a vague chance of pointing to Reimu. I'd probably have a similar relationship with Bandana Dee, but nothing's really pointed to him as much as Reimu-At least, not the way I interpret it.

 

[DevaAshera]

At this point if Namco is getting a character my guess is Lloyd. I don’t feel too strongly about it though. For some reason I have less confidence in Chosen Undead. I really doubt we get Nightmare or anything like that either.

As much as I'd want Velvet Crowe to be Namco's second rep, I agree that Lloyd is the most likely one with Heihachi out of the selection..though I also don't think Namco is getting one, tbh..though I guess Lloyd's Mii Fighter costume is still MIA.

I don’t believe that Glitch Theory but this 2B talk has me like
View attachment 277357

I know..I'm still hoping for the dream of having my two favorite games ever in Smash, I've got Joker, I just need 2B now..

 

[Shroob]

admittedly I saw that explanation of the glitch I immediately thought of senran kagura because of the exploding clothes line.


I can see that glitch being connected to 2B.


that would be surprising.


that would be ******* hilarious.

If Mai was too bad a girl for CERO, Senran would have CERO seething foam harder than a dog with rabies.

 

[ClaudeandCamilla]

Yes!!! I am happy both of us want Camilla in!! <3

I want Camilla in smash too! In fact, I was considering making a moveset for her and posting it here on this website!

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Whether 2B gets in or not, she definitely feels like one of those characters likethat we wouldn't expect and something I feel Sakurai would do also.