Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Scoliosis Jones]

Square Enix copyright. It's kind of a *****, hence why Cloud came back with exactly the same two songs and no other Spirits.

This is a cursed image.

View attachment 276811



But the reason for them being in the game is not because of who they are but their fan demand. Ridley, King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie all got into the game through the ballot (Sakurai said so in his Famitsu columns). Heck even the Geno and King K. Rool mii costumes were probably due to the ballot results. It had nothing to do with their impact in gaming. Geno being a supporting character from an obscure spin-off does not effect how likely he is to be in Super Smash Bros.



But didn't the other three get in just through pure fan demand? I mean Sakurai had more reason to add Ridley and King K. Rool since he seemingly had control over who he could add. Nintendo and Microsoft had no reason to add Banjo & Kazooie into Smash Bros other than pure fan demand. Phil Spencer is literally the evidence of this being the case since he had been communicating with fans about asking Nintendo to include them since the ballot came out.



My guess is that since Cloud was the last character they added into Ultimate's base game, they were more focused on getting him back.

That's not my point though.

If Sakurai wants Geno, and had the opportunity to deal with Square Enix...why isn't Geno playable yet? If he's a massively (hyperbole imho, but let's go with it) requested character and Sakurai wants him in Smash, why is he not playable and we get Cloud and Hero instead?

I think it's a valid question. They've worked with Square Enix to get Cloud and Hero in as playable characters and specifically added Geno as a Spirit and Mii Costume in the past.

If it were so simple as for Sakurai to say, "I would like Geno to be playable" why hasn't it happened yet? Hence, there must be a reason as to why he isn't playable.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Can confirm. Was one of the like, 5 serious Joker supporters, and was the only serious Joker supporter to frequent the General Speculation Thread. Was laughed at.

A lot.

But it's okay because I got the last laugh >:^)

When Joker got shown, my sister could hear me go crazy and go "WHAT? NO WAY. WHAT?!" so make that 6 supporters

 

[SharkLord]

But the reason for them being in the game is not because of who they are but their fan demand. Ridley, King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie all got into the game through the ballot (Sakurai said so in his Famitsu columns). Heck even the Geno and King K. Rool mii costumes were probably due to the ballot results. It had nothing to do with their impact in gaming. Geno being a supporting character from an obscure spin-off does not effect how likely he is to be in Super Smash Bros.



But didn't the other three get in just through pure fan demand? I mean Sakurai had more reason to add Ridley and King K. Rool since he seemingly had control over who he could add. Nintendo and Microsoft had no reason to add Banjo & Kazooie into Smash Bros other than pure fan demand. Phil Spencer is literally the evidence of this being the case since he had been communicating with fans about asking Nintendo to include them since the ballot came out.

I highly doubt it was from popularity alone. As I've said before, Ridley, Banjo, and K.Rool all played a major role in their home games, popularity was just a part of it. It should also be noted that many characters have been added regardless of popularity from Smash's beginning; Right now, the most recent standouts are Joker and Terry.
I'd also like to note that the base game had a lot of ballot favorites, but the DLC wasn't focused on that as much. The only granted wish from the first pass was Banjo, and as noted above, Joker and Terry sit on the opposite end of the scale. In addition, this is post-release content you need to get people sold on so they buy its separately from the main game; Being a supporting character from an obscure spin-off is very likely going to affect your chances.

 

[kevinthedot]

Eh, honestly, at this point I've kinda given up on any kind of "rules" to these picks and accepted that the only thing a character needs is for either Nintendo or Sakurai to want them.
Their overall popularity may get them on the pedestal, but if Nintendo and Sakurai both don't want them then they're pretty much out of luck. Having one on their side may get them a cosutme or spirit, but they really need both to make it through.
- Sakurai wanted him clearly pretty hard since he loved Persona 5 and Nintendo probably wasn't as thrilled but took the Atlus plug for more connections.
- Every reason for Nintendo to want him and Sakurai seemed to have an appreciation for the DQ games too.
- Nintendo clearly wanted a Microsoft collab for Smash and Banjo's the obvious choice due to his shared history assuming Microsoft would be more stingy with their bigger names. His poll presence probably did influence that choice as well, but it's more likely just what pointed their Microsoft needle to Banjo over someone like Steve. Sakurai really didn't seem all that enthusiastic about BK honestly. He joked about things a lot, but it didn't have the same passion as the others he clearly loves.
- Similar to Joker, this seems to be one Sakurai wanted even more than Nintendo. He clearly has a strong appreciation for the SNK series and Nintendo of course just wanted anyone SNK would give them.
- This one seemed like a full on Nintendo decision. Sakurai seemed warmer to Three Houses than he did to Banjo, but he didn't seem quite as passionate.
- And this one also felt super "Daddy Nintendo gets to pick" with them just telling Sakurai they wanted someone from ARMS, hence his annecdote of asking the producer for his preference rather than picking one himself and going with that. He seemed the least interested in the ARMS reveal out of all of them, though that may have just been from the lack of production.

This all leads to why I really don't think Geno's got a snowballs chance in hell at this point. Nintendo just flat doesn't want him. They've gone so far as to remove cameo appearances of him at this point. Sakurai doesn't seem super crazy passionate about Geno like he was with Joker or Terry either, so I don't see him pushing for him hard.
Same applies to a lot of indie options. Nintendo just really doesn't GET anything out of it outside of maybe a bit of advertising their indie storefront.

 

[TwiceEXE]

Square Enix copyright. It's kind of a *****, hence why Cloud came back with exactly the same two songs and no other Spirits.

The copyright situation surrounding FF7's music and SMRPG's music is quite different though. Yoko Shimomura holds the rights to the music and she has already done stuff in Ultimate.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

My view is that if your argument is based on sound logic and deduction, it should not be dismissed as a "fan rule" or "gatekeeping". The reason people bring up these "fan rules" is because they are based on observed patterns and prior behavior. They are not an ironclad way to predict the future, but they do provide a framework with which to curate ideas. I have repeatedly said that my speculation is based on the probable, not the possible. That does not mean I dismiss all the possible outcomes, I simply attempt to focus on the more likely scenarios. For example, it is POSSIBLE that Dino Riki from Adventures of Dino Riki on the NES is added as a playable character. But I would rate the chances of that as minuscule. I won't tell you that you are wrong for wanting him or that it is impossible, but I may voice why I think it probably won't happen.

It is important to be respectful in our discussions; no one likes to be greeted with rudeness when voicing their opinions. But that does not mean that everyone has to hold their tongue and not voice a dissenting opinion. Just attempt to be tactful and to argue from a position with evidence/support for your ideas.

The other important thing is to be flexible when new information arises. Strong takes, held weakly. I was of the mindset that Spirits were unlikely to be made into fighters. That held true for the entire first pass, but now that is off the table. So I have let that opinion go and formed a new one that Spirits added in the post-launch Spirit events or that characters from those franchises are unlikely to be added.

Honestly kinda seems like some folks are laying in wait for particular people to be wrong as to point out their "lack of credibility" when the discourse is always changing when it comes to these things.

My dudes, it's ok to be wrong. Nobody is ever going to be 100% correct on 100% of the things they think or come up with. I've been wrong before, yet I continue to post my ideas as they are based on information and or evidence. Now, do I say they're the absolute ONLY outcome? No, as I usually say "There's a chance it doesn't mean anything".

Otherwise, it seems like people use "fan rule" to shut down something they don't have a comeback for or can't articulate an argument against.

Like, what ever happened to, "I respectfully disagree, and here is my reasoning for it"?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But the thing is, it's not just Geno and Mallow; There's Mario, Bowser, and Peach as well, and they're already in. Even if they're not considered reps for that game specifically, it still leaves Geno and Mallow as side characters; Side characters without a major appearance since their debut. And again, seniority=/=going first. You said it yourself, Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are extremely popular. Why can't we get a rep from there? Why does it have to be Geno as our Mario RPG fighter? What elevates him above the rest beyond popularity?

...So Mario, Bowser, and Peach(who at most might have a move or two from SMRPG. At least Peach is somewhat clear with her slaps originating from that game, and that might just be a typical princess design instead. Bowser's Koopa Claw animation has similarities to some of his SMRPG attacks, and the Mario Finale could be referencing Ultra Flame) are in? Big deal. That's the point. They are not there because of SMRPG.

And yes, Paper Mario is worth noting. So you have two very unique and good Mario RPG genre additions, not just one. Why is that a big deal? Geno has had more fan demand too, and worth noting that Sakurai considers Geno an important addition over Paper Mario. That doesn't mean Nintendo would push Geno over Paper Mario either, or Waluigi, etc. But just because other game series exist doesn't mean they shouldn't want someone specific. Geno's also that unique mysterious character that has a "cool vibe" to him, which is part of why he's very popular. He's a core part of SMRPG as well, one of the main 5 characters. Not that he's treated well in-game, besides being a Game Breaker(he has barely any characterization and is used poorly in that regard. Unfortunately).

But people want a specific character quite often, not simply a franchise in. You can't just put in another character and say "close enough". That's not how it works. I have a good example for "functions", but that's not really my exact point here. Nobody can replace the character they specifically want. The character matters, less so the moveset itself. Or the franchise alone. Obviously some care more about the franchise than who is in too. Some were just happy with ARMS. Others wanted specifically Spring Man or Dr. Coyle or Max Brass or Min Min. Being Min Min disappointed some because it wasn't who they wanted.

 

[Guynamednelson]

assuming Microsoft would be more stingy with their bigger names

I don't think they were saying "we'd require too much money if you wanted Steve or Chief" as much as they were saying "Hey, that duo you wish was back at Nintendo? You can vote for them, it's cool." But hey, I can see Minecraft or Halo costing more.

 

[ZelDan]

Personally I only consider something fan rules when fans act like something is 100% the case when neither Sakurai not Nintendo have acted or said anything to imply as such.

I'm not going to judge people for being skeptical or wary or for looking out for patterns. It's just a matter of not seeing things as absolutes with me, unless Sakurai himself says so.

 

[Megadoomer]

One other thing with Geno, I think, is this question: If it were so simple as for Sakurai to just add Geno, why isn't he in Smash as playable yet?

Logically, the answer is that if Sakurai wanted to make him playable (which he has said he was interested in doing in the past), he would be playable. But he isn't. This suggests there's something else in the way preventing it.

Whatever it is, I'm not sure. But I think it's hasty to say "he's in" when he could absolutely end up as a Mii Costume again.

A similar question could be asked for basically any character that isn't part of the roster yet, especially any Nintendo characters. Geno's owned by Square-Enix, which seems like a key factor; adding Geno before a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest character would be like adding any Capcom character before Ryu or some version of Mega Man. I'd love to see Dante or Amaterasu in Smash, but there's absolutely no way that I could justify including them before Ryu or Mega Man, and something similar seems to apply here.

 

[GoodGrief741]

That's not my point though.

If Sakurai wants Geno, and had the opportunity to deal with Square Enix...why isn't Geno playable yet? If he's a massively (hyperbole imho, but let's go with it) requested character and Sakurai wants him in Smash, why is he not playable and we get Cloud and Hero instead?

I think it's a valid question. They've worked with Square Enix to get Cloud and Hero in as playable characters and specifically added Geno as a Spirit and Mii Costume in the past.

If it were so simple as for Sakurai to say, "I would like Geno to be playable" why hasn't it happened yet? Hence, there must be a reason as to why he isn't playable.

I think, at least in retrospect, that it's obvious that Geno isn't in yet because there were much bigger fish to fry. Geno would never have been the first Square Enix rep, no way.

That is still the biggest obstacle to Geno's inclusion, because Square Enix is a pond with a lot of big fish, but I don't see "if he were going to get in he would have already" as a good argument. Far from it, with each Square Enix character that gets in, that's one characters less that's in Geno's way.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like how is he holding the right chopstick in place? I don't see any finger on it.

Why did you point that out to me?

What has seen cannot be unseen. I will forever see Ridley as a guy in a fur-er-scalesuit that holds chopsticks telekinetically now.

 

[Nekoo]

Square Enix copyright. It's kind of a *****, hence why Cloud came back with exactly the same two songs and no other Spirits.

Just to make sure people stop this assumption.
FFVII has copyrights issues. The composers of the musics are the owners...Which means LOTS and LOTS of expensive royalties. It's not a Square-Enix thing-

Lemme explain what probably happened with Cloud's content:
If you didn't know, the final Smash Direct of Smash 4 with Cloud Corrin and Bayonetta was broadcasted december 15.
December 15 was the day Sakurai finished the initial project plan of Super smash bros Ultimate.
We also know from an interview that Sakurai don't cut any character from a project plan from a game. All characters that are planned in the initial project plan, gets in.
If we manage to put 2 and 2 togethers, it becomes a simple guess that timeline wise since Cloud's licence was expensive, they probably did a dual contract for both Smash 4 and Ultimate as it would be easier and "cheaper", and who knows if Spirits and the concept of Spirits were even a thing back then for the initial project plan.
Which would explain why Cloud got exactly the exact same Content, just like Bayonetta didn't get anything beside an Assist and spirits.
You can then asks "why Cloud didn't get new content but Bayonetta did?"
Remember that Hero was supposed to be base game instead of DLC, before being pushed back as a DLC...Aaaaand you get your answer.
Cloud's deal was already done for Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate.
And instead of negociating more and spend more on FF content, they just used Cloud's success to approach Square again and grab Hero alongside DQ's licence.

 

[SharkLord]

...So Mario, Bowser, and Peach(who at most might have a move or two from SMRPG. At least Peach is somewhat clear with her slaps originating from that game, and that might just be a typical princess design instead. Bowser's Koopa Claw animation has similarities to some of his SMRPG attacks, and the Mario Finale could be referencing Ultra Flame) are in? Big deal. That's the point. They are not there because of SMRPG.

That may be true, but Geno and Mallow aren't the only SMRPG characters, and the game shouldn't be automatically conflated with them. Just because Nintendo might bring up SMRPG again doesn't instantly mean Geno in the same way a Golden Sun remake would give credence to Isaac.

And yes, Paper Mario is worth noting. So you have two very unique and good Mario RPG genre additions, not just one. Why is that a big deal? Geno has had more fan demand too...

Popularity=/=Addition. Joker and Terry are proof of that.

...worth noting that Sakurai considers Geno an important addition over Paper Mario.

Proof? I'm pretty sure the interview on the Geno costume made no mention about Paper Mario, just that Geno was popular.

And yes, Paper Mario is worth noting. So you have two very unique and good Mario RPG genre additions, not just one. Why is that a big deal? Geno has had more fan demand too, and worth noting that Sakurai considers Geno an important addition over Paper Mario. That doesn't mean Nintendo would push Geno over Paper Mario either, or Waluigi, etc. But just because other game series exist doesn't mean they shouldn't want someone specific. Geno's also that unique mysterious character that has a "cool vibe" to him, which is part of why he's very popular. He's a core part of SMRPG as well, one of the main 5 characters.

One of. And he's not the main character, either; That would go to Mario.

I honestly feel like people are overestimating Geno's chances based on popularity alone. If popularity decided everything, we would have Waluigi, Isaac, and Bandana Dee over Joker, Terry, and Byleth, and yet, here we are.

 

[SnowClaws]

Makes me wonder though. Which other characters could be ripped from their games and work in Smash Bros? Because there is a possibility that they could be more likely to be picked as DLC.

TMS ♯FE - Itsuki Aoi & Chrom, Tsubasa Oribe & Caeda
XC2 - Addam Origo and/or Mythra, Lora and/or Jin
LOZ BOTW - Zelda
Super Mario Odyssey - The Broodals, Goomba Tower, T-Rex
Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle - Bwario, Bwaluigi
Mario Tennis Aces - Fire Piranha Plant
Luigi's Mansion 3 - King Boo
XC1 DE - Fiora, Melia

EDIT: Forget about The Stretchers

 

[DuskFleur]

Can I politely say that I love the new artwork they made for Min Min’s release? The art style is so cute! I hope that it’ll become a trend for the other characters, like in Smash 4!

Maybe if Sora got into the game, Tetsuya Nomura can draw something like he did for Cloud? Maybe something like this fan art, in the style of Chain of Memories, since that was Kingdom Hearts’ first foray into Nintendo systems! https://twitter.com/sworderailer/status/1088680791800860673?s=21

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think, at least in retrospect, that it's obvious that Geno isn't in yet because there were much bigger fish to fry. Geno would never have been the first Square Enix rep, no way.

That is still the biggest obstacle to Geno's inclusion, because Square Enix is a pond with a lot of big fish, but I don't see "if he were going to get in he would have already" as a good argument. Far from it, with each Square Enix character that gets in, that's one characters less that's in Geno's way.

That's the thing though- it's not so simple as to say, "Sakurai wants Geno, so he's likely". Sakurai wanted Geno, yet we got Cloud and Hero. I think if anything, we're in agreement- while Cloud and Hero are "bigger fish" and there's still possible "bigger fish" from Square Enix, that in itself is an explanation as to, "Why hasn't Sakurai picked Geno yet?"

My point was that if that point was truly that strong, then it would stand to reason that he'd be in the game if Sakurai were picking, hands off from Nintendo. But he isn't, which suggests there's other criteria or reasoning that prevents Sakurai from adding Geno.

That said, I'm dragging this comment on for basically no reason. I agree, and I personally think the "bigger fish" is what could very likely be something that could leave Geno out to dry yet again if Square Enix gets another character in Smash, like 2B.

 

[cosmicB]

I’m curious, what are your guys opinions on geno? Personally, I think he’s a lock at this point.

I'm less confident in him than I have been in months thanks to the Min Min spirit battle not getting upgraded. Sakurai's statement on spirit battles getting upgraded was entirely in the context of mii costumes, saying more are happening in the future. Geno's spirit battle getting upgraded with the costume is a no-brainer.

 

[SharkLord]

That's the thing though- it's not so simple as to say, "Sakurai wants Geno, so he's likely". Sakurai wanted Geno, yet we got Cloud and Hero. I think if anything, we're in agreement- while Cloud and Hero are "bigger fish" and there's still possible "bigger fish" from Square Enix, that in itself is an explanation as to, "Why hasn't Sakurai picked Geno yet?"

My point was that if that point was truly that strong, then it would stand to reason that he'd be in the game if Sakurai were picking, hands off from Nintendo. But he isn't, which suggests there's other criteria or reasoning that prevents Sakurai from adding Geno.

That said, I'm dragging this comment on for basically no reason. I agree, and I personally think the "bigger fish" is what could very likely be something that could leave Geno out to dry yet again if Square Enix gets another character in Smash, like 2B.

I'd like to add that Squeenix might not be the only one who thinks there's more important characters than Geno; Nintendo could easily think that as well. Nintendo seems to be the one choosing the characters, and Sakurai has admitted there was a character he wanted that Nintendo said no to; Just because someone is popular with Sakurai and the fans doesn't mean they can get in on that alone.

 

[Nekoo]

Can I politely say that I love the new artwork they made for Min Min’s release? The art style is so cute! I hope that it’ll become a trend for the other characters, like in Smash 4!

Maybe if Sora got into the game, Tetsuya Nomura can draw something like he did for Cloud? Maybe something like this fan art, in the style of Chain of Memories, since that was Kingdom Hearts’ first foray into Nintendo systems! https://twitter.com/sworderailer/status/1088680791800860673?s=21

My only issue with Min Min's artwork release is that they just traced Fox's ultimate render and it looks so out of place with the whole super cartonny feel of the drawing when you see it lmao.
Also, Nomura would probably do something if Sora get in smash, heck he did one for the SSBU countdown release.
And even one for Hero's release, even if it's not his character in case you didn't know! It's one of the drawing that really get overlooked a lot!

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Just to make sure people stop this assumption.
FFVII has copyrights issues. The composers of the musics are the owners...Which means LOTS and LOTS of expensive royalties. It's not a Square-Enix thing-

Lemme explain what probably happened with Cloud's content:
If you didn't know, the final Smash Direct of Smash 4 with Cloud Corrin and Bayonetta was broadcasted december 15.
December 15 was the day Sakurai finished the initial project plan of Super smash bros Ultimate.
We also know from an interview that Sakurai don't cut any character from a project plan from a game. All characters that are planned in the initial project plan, gets in.
If we manage to put 2 and 2 togethers, it becomes a simple guess that timeline wise since Cloud's licence was expensive, they probably did a dual contract for both Smash 4 and Ultimate as it would be easier and "cheaper", and who knows if Spirits and the concept of Spirits were even a thing back then for the initial project plan.
Which would explain why Cloud got exactly the exact same Content, just like Bayonetta didn't get anything beside an Assist and spirits.
You can then asks "why Cloud didn't get new content but Bayonetta did?"
Remember that Hero was supposed to be base game instead of DLC, before being pushed back as a DLC...Aaaaand you get your answer.
Cloud's deal was already done for Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate.
And instead of negociating more and spend more on FF content, they just used Cloud's success to approach Square again and grab Hero alongside DQ's licence.

... THAT would explain why Cloud was the last character added to Ultimate

 

[SharkLord]

My only issue with Min Min's artwork release is that they just traced Fox's ultimate render and it looks so out of place with the whole super cartonny feel of the drawing when you see it lmao.
Also, Nomura would probably do something if Sora get in smash, heck he did one for the SSBU countdown release.
And even one for Hero's release, even if it's not his character in case you didn't know! It's one of the drawing that really get overlooked a lot!

View attachment 276819

I don't know why, but the Slime's face gives me extreme discomfort.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think, at least in retrospect, that it's obvious that Geno isn't in yet because there were much bigger fish to fry. Geno would never have been the first Square Enix rep, no way.

That is still the biggest obstacle to Geno's inclusion, because Square Enix is a pond with a lot of big fish, but I don't see "if he were going to get in he would have already" as a good argument. Far from it, with each Square Enix character that gets in, that's one characters less that's in Geno's way.

On one hand, Squenix definitely has big fish remaining.

On the other, we have the biggest fish already, so who knows, that could be good enough for Squenix in different ways: They might not want another Smash character, or they'll allow something smaller.

I don't know why, but the Slime's face gives me extreme discomfort.

It looks like it's staring at Cloud.

 

[ZelDan]

people always bring up "bigger fish" when it comes to what has held back Geno before, and I've seen people act like NOW Geno is in the clear with both FF and DQ represented with a playable character.

The thing is though, is that couldn't there be other Square properties that could be considered "bigger fish" other than FF and DQ? I mean, SE owns Tomb Raider and Lara Croft is obviously a much bigger deal than Geno. 2B and Nier have become huge in Gaming ever since Nier Automata and the Nier train hasn't seemingly stooped either since the first game is getting a remaster I think? There's also Bravery Default which is getting a new game on Switch.

And that's just off the top of my head

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That may be true, but Geno and Mallow aren't the only SMRPG characters, and the game shouldn't be automatically conflated with them. Just because Nintendo might bring up SMRPG again doesn't instantly mean Geno in the same way a Golden Sun remake would give credence to Isaac.

Except they are. There's absolutely no way anybody else has a remote chance to get in. Nobody else is a realistic character in SMRPG. And Mallow has significantly less fan demand. Mario/Peach/Bowser are not there because of SMRPG. They are there because they originated in Super Mario Bros. and are massively popular regular Super Mario characters.

Popularity=/=Addition. Joker and Terry are proof of that.

And? Terry also is a highly popular character in one region. Joker actually is from a critically acclaimed game. Why does that matter? Geno isn't fighting for a spot with exactly a lot of Super Mario additions either. Mallow isn't even realistically on the table. What, Paper Mario, Waluigi, maybe Toad and Captain Toad possibly? And who knows if Waluigi even stands a chance at this point. They all are massively popular characters too. Nintendo is also choosing the characters, and it's unlikely for them to grab ones from a series they don't want to promote. Them not being on Nintendo at all(or coming up, like in Joker's case with the 3DS game, the only Nintendo tie he legitimately has) may matter too. Promotional impact does matter.

Proof? I'm pretty sure the interview on the Geno costume made no mention about Paper Mario, just that Geno was popular.

That's literally exactly what it means. Paper Mario is unmentioned. Only Geno is. That means he literally considers Geno an important addition to Smash Bros. By process of elimination, there's no reason to think Paper Mario matters for Sakurai right now. There's evidence Geno matters, and none that Paper Mario matters.

Though fair enough, this seems kind of a silly point. But the fact he wants one and we see nothing to suggest he wants the other puts Geno blatantly higher to our known eyes. There's no reason we should think he'd choose Paper Mario over Geno himself. Nintendo, yes. They clearly care about Paper Mario(they care about both, mind you, as they wanted SMRPG on the VC along with the SNES Mini) too.

One of. And he's not the main character, either; That would go to Mario.

No. Geno is a main character in SMRPG. There's more than one main character. Mario is the core protagonist. Peach is actually the only one among the five protagonists that means nothing to the story. She's just there for the ride. Everybody else has a lot of importance. And Mallow has less than the other 3. His goal is to find his origins, but still along for the ride. Bowser is there to stop Smithy so he can get his castle back. Mario is there to save the world. Geno is there to save the world. Geno's actually the second most important main character among the heroes in-story.

I honestly feel like people are overestimating Geno's chances based on popularity alone. If popularity decided everything, we would have Waluigi, Isaac, and Bandana Dee over Joker, Terry, and Byleth, and yet, here we are.

Honestly, I don't think those are even in remote competition with Geno. He's probably only going to contend with the Super Mario and other SE additions at best. Only Waluigi is someone he has to watch out for at this point.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

On one hand, Squenix definitely has big fish remaining.

On the other, we have the biggest fish already, so who knows, that could be good enough for Squenix in different ways: They might not want another Smash character, or they'll allow something smaller.


It looks like it's staring at Cloud.

aw yeah

it's Neku time.

(pls)

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

My only issue with Min Min's artwork release is that they just traced Fox's ultimate render and it looks so out of place with the whole super cartonny feel of the drawing when you see it lmao.
Also, Nomura would probably do something if Sora get in smash, heck he did one for the SSBU countdown release.
And even one for Hero's release, even if it's not his character in case you didn't know! It's one of the drawing that really get overlooked a lot!

View attachment 276819

man, Nomuras art is so beautiful

 

[Wunderwaft]

A couple pages back I think I saw someone jokingly suggest Nia as the XC2 rep. The funny thing is, given the spoileriffic thingamabobber going on with her, she could arguably represent the game's concepts almost as well as Rex, if not the game itself.

If Nia actually gets in due to Takahashi's input or something like that I will pop off hard. Even though I like Rex and I would be happy to see him, that Welsh cat is my favorite character in XC2.

 

[cosmicB]

I don't understand how being "a party member from a generations old Mario game" is a knock against Geno. I'd think healthy fan demand would nullify this problem because it would give him popularity and a distinction from other characters similar to his role.

Think about it this way. Old and irrelevant, side character, one off; these are all arguments used against several characters, but notice how not a single character that has gotten in the game represents all 3. K Rool, major antagonist in 4 games. Banjo, protagonist of 2 popular games and a third not so popular one. Ridley... well he actually doesn't belong here at all because he's gotten a recent game and will most definitely show up in the future.

Not a single character on the roster fits at the date of their inclusion (so no, Dark Pit doesn't count here). Geno would be an anomaly and I absolutely think his role and relevance will play a part. He's kept alive on Smash speculation. Literally no other character that's gotten in has that.

 

[SharkLord]

On one hand, Squenix definitely has big fish remaining.

On the other, we have the biggest fish already, so who knows, that could be good enough for Squenix in different ways: They might not want another Smash character, or they'll allow something smaller.

Yeah, if we get Geno, Nintendo would need another deal with Squeenix, and we don't know if that's gonna happen.

It looks like it's staring at Cloud.

Yeah, it's staring at Cloud, who's inside the Slime. Add a great big smile, and presto, it's the stuff of nightmares.

people always bring up "bigger fish" when it comes to what has held back Geno before, and I've seen people act like NOW Geno is in the clear with both FF and DQ represented with a playable character.

The thing is though, is that couldn't there be other Square properties that could be considered "bigger fish" other than FF and DQ? I mean, SE owns Tomb Raider and Lara Croft is obviously a much bigger deal than Geno. 2B and Nier have become huge in Gaming ever since Nier Automata and the Nier train hasn't seemingly stooped either since the first game is getting a remaster I think? There's also Bravery Default which is getting a new game on Switch.

And that's just off the top of my head

And there's a lot of room for more Final Fantasy content, VII or otherwise. Assuming the speculations of a double deal for 4 and Ultimate are correct, there's a chance Nintendo might go back for more FF content.

And? Terry also is a highly popular character in one region. Joker actually is from a critically acclaimed game.

But they aren't heavily requested in the Smash fandom, where the bulk of Geno's popularity resides. Smash fandom popular=/=General audience popular, and even then both of those are split into a thousand different demographics. Outside of the diehards, SMRPG isn't that popular. If anything, Joker and Terry are an argument against Geno, because they're popular with the general audience.

No. Geno is a main character in SMRPG. There's more than one main character. Mario is the core protagonist. Peach is actually the only one among the five protagonists that means nothing to the story. She's just there for the ride. Everybody else has a lot of importance. And Mallow has less than the other 3. His goal is to find his origins, but still along for the ride. Bowser is there to stop Smithy so he can get his castle back. Mario is there to save the world. Geno is there to save the world. Geno's actually the second most important main character among the heroes in-story.

And what I'm saying is Geno isn't the main character, he's still the deuteragonist at best. Add that on to SMRPG's cult classic status, and that's a pretty big obstacle to overcome.
Geno's a dark horse, and that's both his greatest strength and greatest weakness. It could get him a spot on the roster, but at the same time it could make him fall off the Big N's radar just as easily. It's not definitive proof for his inclusion.

If Nia actually gets in due to Takahashi's input or something like that I will pop off hard. Even though I like Rex and I would be happy to see him, that Welsh cat is my favorite character in XC2.

Just remember this; Sakurai owns a cat. Maybe he could have a request of his own, if you know what I mean...

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Speculation in general has become a pretty black-white game of “debunking fan rules”, where if a character with a certain attribute gets in, it must mean all characters with the same attribute no longer have that as a point against them.

It becomes a bit of cherrypicking when you see posts like this.

”Character X has nothing going against them now. Duck Hunt is old, Dark Pit appears in only one game, Banjo is third party, Cloud has no connection to Nintendo and Min Min isn’t a main character! Ergo, it means that The Mean Bean Machine has literally no obstacles against it!”

You can build a case for everyone this way, if you treat fan rules as black or white from both sides and needless to say, it hinders speculation.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Think about it this way. Old and irrelevant, side character, one off; these are all arguments used against several characters, but notice how not a single character that has gotten in the game represents all 3. K Rool, major antagonist in 4 games. Banjo, protagonist of 2 popular games and a third not so popular one. Ridley... well he actually doesn't belong here at all because he's gotten a recent game and will most definitely show up in the future.

Not a single character on the roster fits at the date of their inclusion (so no, Dark Pit doesn't count here). Geno would be an anomaly and I absolutely think his role and relevance will play a part. He's kept alive on Smash speculation. Literally no other character that's gotten in has that.

Again, none of the three characters were included because of their roles in their respective games. They were added solely due to the smash ballot and fan requests. Here is the famitsu column about Banjo & Kazooie. It says nothing about their inclusion being that they were main characters.

Time to talk about Banjo and Kazooie (Translator Note: Ill refer to them as BK for tweeting purpose).

BK were incredibly request by fans in the West for a long time. Even after King K. Rool and Ridley, requests were still coming in. pic.twitter.com/CJ3p7CHcRe

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) June 26, 2019

 

[Cosmic77]

Seriously, it's gonna suck if we don't even get a premium Mii costume as a payoff for going through all these Geno discussions.

I don't even care about Geno, and yet I'd be pretty mad if we get the exact same Smash 4 costume in F10 or F11's bundle. Should've revealed that thing a lot sooner if that's what we're getting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But they aren't heavily requested in the Smash fandom, where the bulk of Geno's popularity resides. Smash fandom popular=/=General audience popular, and even then both of those are split into a thousand different demographics. Outside of the diehards, SMRPG isn't that popular. If anything, Joker and Terry are an argument against Geno, because they're popular with the general audience.

Banjo & Kazooie, who had less of an impact than SMRPG, says hi. They were requested entirely by the Smash fandom too. The only difference was... the series was still an active product from Microsoft. Last active SMRPG moment was the SNES Mini, and that was literally during Ultimate's release. ...Which is probably why Geno and Mallow got spirits, promotional timing. Very easy timing to get.

Terry is an outlier to everything possible. No other character pack will ever get that much content. It also had only a few active games being pushed on the Wii U and Switch around the time of release and being chosen. He also represents SNK as a whole. No other character represents the company as a whole.(Pac-Man represents the Namco Arcade stuff, but not Bandai-Namco itself). He's super special in that way. He should be used as evidence of anything at this point.

And what I'm saying is Geno isn't the main character, he's still the deuteragonist at best. Add that on to SMRPG's cult classic status, and that's a pretty big obstacle to overcome.
Geno's a dark horse, and that's both his greatest strength and greatest weakness. It could get him a spot on the roster, but at the same time it could make him fall off the Big N's radar just as easily. It's not definitive proof for his inclusion.

There is no such thing as "the main character". Unless there's quite literally no antagonists whatsoever in a game to fight/go against. Main character is not equivalent to the "protagonist" of a story. They're entirely different things in how they work. Main character is a specification that applies to every single character who leads the overall story on both the ends of Protagonist and Antagonist. Melee used all 5 main characters in OOT. Link, Young Link, Ganondorf, Zelda, and Sheik are all main characters in OOT. Bar none. They are not supporting characters. They outright lead the story. Impa is the only one even close to that specific role, and she's an actual supporting character who is slightly more important than the other Sages, and only because she actually is a key part of how Zelda becomes Sheik.

"The main character" can only exist when there's literally no actual story with an antagonist. Like a puzzle game with no real characters beyond the player. That's where it applies. Mario is the main protagonist. Geno is the secondary main protagonist. There's two. Smithy is the main antagonist(and there's other important ones, but few stand out. Booster stands out for having a much bigger story portion than the rest. Same with Valentina). You're mixing up definitions here to make Geno sound completely worthless as a party member. That's definitely not the case nor ever will be. He's the second most important character after Mario and Smithy, the core protagonist and antagonist, both main characters. Once again, "main character" is a poor term people use constantly wrong. To have a single main character means only one character exists within the story. Not a lot of games do that, now do they? It's why puzzle games are the only one where that makes sense to begin with. Because without any bosses, there's no other characters to really add. At most, there's random enemies as an obstacle, but they're not notable whatsoever. And there's not supposed to be. And even then, that's why the term protagonist is used. And they aren't a hero or a villain, cause the story doesn't make it possible to have one. They're just a protagonist. No more, no less.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Seriously, it's gonna suck if we don't even get a premium Mii costume as a payoff for going through all these Geno discussions.

I don't even care about Geno, and yet I'd be pretty mad if we get the exact same Smash 4 costume in F10 or F11's bundle. Should've revealed that thing a lot sooner if that's what we're getting.

wasn't there talk of some SMRPG songs getting copyright flagged? some Megalovania remix was flagged before Sans's premium costume reveal. i think Geno may get a premium costume upgrade with a SMRPG song or two

 

[Megadoomer]

people always bring up "bigger fish" when it comes to what has held back Geno before, and I've seen people act like NOW Geno is in the clear with both FF and DQ represented with a playable character.

The thing is though, is that couldn't there be other Square properties that could be considered "bigger fish" other than FF and DQ? I mean, SE owns Tomb Raider and Lara Croft is obviously a much bigger deal than Geno. 2B and Nier have become huge in Gaming ever since Nier Automata and the Nier train hasn't seemingly stooped either since the first game is getting a remaster I think? There's also Bravery Default which is getting a new game on Switch.

And that's just off the top of my head

How much Smash demand do those characters have? It's a rhetorical question, but while 2B could get in through a Joker style situation (which I'd be perfectly fine with), we've already seen at least one obvious case where fan demand has made a significant difference when there are plenty of alternatives. Looking at it logically, you'd think that Minecraft (Microsoft's best-selling franchise by a significant amount) or Halo (the face of their consoles) would be picked if Microsoft was getting a character in Smash, but instead we got Banjo, a character who hasn't had a game in over a decade, and who hasn't had a good game in nearly two. Microsoft seems outright reluctant to use the character, and yet that's who we got in Smash.

That's not the only case by any means. Lucina getting in over Chrom in Smash 4 (I'm aware that there's more to it than that - Robin was picked over Chrom, Lucina was already planned to be a Marth costume but got promoted to playable - but it still seems to apply), K. Rool getting in over Dixie (or any number of other Nintendo characters), Ridley getting in despite Sakurai's previous comments on how he couldn't be shrunk down or else he wouldn't feel like Ridley, Pit getting a revival (I know his trophy description in Melee got a bunch of people speculating about him appearing in a future Smash game), Meta Knight and Dedede getting in despite (from what I can recall) worries that Sakurai might seem biased, Chrom and Dark Samus being included, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

 

[ZelDan]

Seriously, it's gonna suck if we don't even get a premium Mii costume as a payoff for going through all these Geno discussions.

I don't even care about Geno, and yet I'd be pretty mad if we get the exact same Smash 4 costume in F10 or F11's bundle. Should've revealed that thing a lot sooner if that's what we're getting.

As someone who does love SMRPG but is largely indifferent to Geno and has many other characters he'd rather see make it into Smash first, I'd honestly be happy with a premium Mii costume for Geno with a remixed tune (most likely one being Beware the Forest).

 

[Goombaic]

If Nia actually gets in due to Takahashi's input or something like that I will pop off hard. Even though I like Rex and I would be happy to see him, that Welsh cat is my favorite character in XC2.

If one other party member from XC2 were to get in before Rex (likely never happening), I'd like it to be Morag more than the others. She's a pretty cool character and it'd be hilarious if her swords had even farther range than Min Min.

Anyway, Soul Calibur is cool and it's a sin that there aren't even spirits yet.

Spoiler: transcendinghistoryandtheworldataleofswordsandsoulseternallyretold

Either Nightmare or Mitsurugi would be great. I prefer Nightmare, but Mitsurugi has his own merits as well.

 

[ZelDan]

How much Smash demand do those characters have? It's a rhetorical question, but while 2B could get in through a Joker style situation (which I'd be perfectly fine with), we've already seen at least one case where fan demand has made a significant difference when there are plenty of alternatives. Looking at it logically, you'd think that Minecraft (Microsoft's best-selling franchise by a significant amount) or Halo (the face of their consoles) would be picked if Microsoft was getting a character in Smash, but instead we got Banjo, a character who hasn't had a game in over a decade, and who hasn't had a good game in nearly two. Microsoft seems outright reluctant to use the character, and yet that's who we got in Smash.

That's not the only case by any means. Lucina getting in over Chrom in Smash 4 (I'm aware that there's more to it than that - Robin was picked over Chrom, Lucina was already planned to be a Marth costume but got promoted to playable - but it still seems to apply), K. Rool getting in over Dixie (or any number of other Nintendo characters), Ridley getting in despite Sakurai's previous comments on how he couldn't be shrunk down or else he wouldn't feel like Ridley, Pit getting a revival (I know his trophy description in Melee got a bunch of people speculating him), Meta Knight and Dedede getting in despite (from what I can recall) worries that Sakurai might seem biased, Chrom and Dark Samus being included, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Well sure, the most successful/popular or "obvious" pick doesn't always make it in over the "less obvious pic." I'm just making the point that I don't think FF or DQ are really the last "bigger fish" that Geno has to worry about.

 

[Knight Dude]

It should be stated my post was mostly a ****post. There's obviously set patterns to follow, but there's more and more leeway into who can be added, and I only see that as a positive.