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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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SMAASH! Puppy

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This is less like an official statement that Assist Trophies deconfirm, and more like Sakurai just memeing up Waluigi's underdog status.
Nevertheless, he's still stating that Assist Trophies do in fact, disconfirm.



Anyway, now that the ARMS character is revealed and the initial impressions are over, I think it's time for me to bounce. I'm sure you guys have noticed this, but I'm on here all day every day, and it's gonna need to stop. Now that we're back in the dark moving forward, I should really lay off and actually get some work done for once. So um...ciao.
 

P.Kat

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Yes Min-Min made it in, and despite her more grounded play style (I'm more of an aerial fighter) I'm really interested in giving her a shot.

Unfortunately this also technically means that weapon stance/change have been implemented, and may not be used as a quirk for other characters in DLC. Only time will tell.

Also the rule about Spirits being unable to become fighters has been finally laid to rest. I couldn't be happier considering Shantae, and Elma are still on my most wanted list.

I REALLY want to buy this fighter pack since Min-Min is a good addition, but I still need to at least wait for Fighter #2 before I decide.
Live footage of Elma, Bandana Dee, Shantae, Dixie Kong, Rayman, Chorus Kids, Black Shadow, Octoling et al supporters celebrating that the Spirits Deconfirm fan rule is dead:
ok I’ll stop meme-ing after this
I'm glad someone did, it sums up how I feel about that fan rule.
 
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Simplythe1

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Tbh I’m kinda disappointed by the direct.

I guess it’s not really Min-Min herself, when I first got on Smashboards I rooted for Min-Min, but it’s with the trailer. When I saw Spring Man grab the smash letter I pretty much expected that it wasn’t him and lo and behold he gets punched.

Honestly, I’m not liking these “sike” trailers where you think a certain character gets in only for someone else to get instead. They get you anticipated and excited only to then sweep the rug from underneath you. It feels like it punishes you for being excited for a character and because of that it really sours the mood for the rest of the direct. It’s the reason it took me a long time to get to like Terry.

In any case, I think the DLC is cool and Vault Boy was a complete surprise. Spirits are off the hook which gives me hope that Rex and Zacian could join in, and I believe Sakurai stated that Min Min was chosen because of the director’s request and not outright because Spring Man is an AT, so Isaac could still have some leverage. So not a shabby start.
I know, you don't know how ready I was to scream when that envelope was in Spring Man's hands, but just like that, all my hope and dreams were all shattered in an instant, I pray no other characters get done dirty like this, but who knows what the future holds
 

Garteam

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I have to say, allowing you to rematch spirits freely is probably one of the nicest QoL improvements I could've imagined. It makes the Spirits battles feel more like they're part of a full, playable mode and a proper replacement for events.
 

TheCJBrine

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That's ignoring the fact that an ARMS fighter was a special request from Nintendo in the first place.

Obviously, in the case of exceptions like this upgrades become possible, if only for the incredibly heavy restrictions not upgrading a character would impose. Without upgrades we could've gotten...uh, Dr. Coyle? THE COMMISH MAX BRASH (wouldn't have been mad if this happened)?! Byte and Barq (which would've been horrible timing lol)?

If you choose to open the possibility of upgrading characters, you can now include Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, the box art characters, Min Min, the most popular character, or Ninjara, who's also incredibly popular among others.

In this case, an upgrade made sense. However, I don't see Sakurai reopening negotiations with Ubisoft or WayForward since he decided Spirits are eligible for Pass 2, nor do I see him going after characters like Elma or Dixie Kong. Maybe Rex and Waluigi have chances given their immense popularity and accessibility, but outside of those two other special cases, I don't see upgrades happening.
At the same time, Nintendo is choosing what Sakurai at least chooses a character from - he doesn't decide who he's getting (unless Nintendo just wants anybody from a certain game/series and nobody specific) nor which company he's working with himself, though he does discuss with Nintendo - and if Sakurai didn't care about this + how they're changing spirit battles as he explained, he's unlikely to deny based on spirits and whatever and Nintendo likely doesn't care either. I don't see why they would care about stuff they added two years ago, anyway. Min Min's spirit board also has basegame spirits in it. If they happen to want to throw Dixie Kong or whoever's fans a bone, they could.

Though I agree in the case that very popular characters such as Waluigi are more-likely promotions.

not really. representation is something that is really only talked about here. to a more general audience they would see an AT becoming playable as paying for something that was already present in the game. it would be seen as something EA would do or having DLC already be on the disc. having what is essentially a sticker become playable isnt the same as having a character that is in the game recieve some model upgrades and a few more moves become playable would not sit well with people. im sure people here wouldnt mind but this is less than 1 percent of the fandom represened here.
An assist trophy has much less moves than a playable fighter. And that's the thing: the AT being made playable with much more work put into the character is very well worth paying for since they have to do new animations and everything. I doubt the general audience would be too upset unless they're like the minority of Pokémon fans complaining about Sword and Shield, which are beaten by the general audience.

And did anybody get mad when that Dragonball fighting game or whatever game it was promoted an assist character to playable in its DLC? It’s not like EA at all, not even close.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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I think the 'everyone is a protagonist' is simply because there's no story but Spring Man's still the mascot, especially as seen with the final smash. When all the characters show up, Spring Man's the most prominent in that shot. At most, Minmin will act like Morrigan Aensland in the future
 

Arcanir

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As an aside though, I'm surprised Captain Falcon has been using his voice clips from 64. I always thought he got new ones as some of the lines were different from how he said it in 64, but I guess they had either had other clips like the FS lying around.
I can see we're not going to agree, so I'll just leave it at this:

Sakurai addressed Spring Man not being chosen because he knew it would surprise people. Even if they consider all ARMS characters to be the protagonists, they're not all equals. Spring Man and Misango are not on the same level, because one was clearly designed to be a generic posterboy for the series — someone who would represent the concept of ARMs better than every other character.

Personally, I'm dropping the "only mascots/protagonists" rule, especially now that people can argue stuff like, "Well, what if the developer of "insert franchise" sees EVERYONE as a protagonist?" I'm sure ARMS won't be the only case in Smash's lifetime where the blatant mascot isn't chosen and a lesser character gets in instead.
I feel we shouldn't be looking at this with a black and white mentality.

Yes Min Min kind of broke expectations since she wasn't the most prominent character in ARMs' marketing, but I don't think every single game should be judged by how it was approached. Min Min happened because of the circumstances behind ARMs roster and the preference of the producer, ARMs so that allowed Sakurai to go with her instead of the poster boy Spring Man. However, the same may not play out with examples like XC2 with Nia over Rex/Pyra since the way the promotion and the story treats the latter with far more relevance then the former, so we probably wouldn't get Nia over the latter two. It's better to look at things by a case-by-case basis, ARMs is an example that due to its nature allowed for Min-Min to be considered on the same level as Spring Man, but that doesn't mean every other game will be looked at with the same mentality.

They still had to pay for those two songs, meaning royalty fees is still a potential issue for Elma, and no, a 'maybe' argument that hold on to nothing but hope won't change that like "Tansut saying he doesn't know Smash news means Neku has a shot because Tansut simply didn't know". This is coming from someone who'd prefer Elma over any other Xenoblade characters, especially a certain someone people are assuming has a chance again
I feel if Sakurai wanted Elma, he'd just pull a Cloud and add her in with two tracks. It wouldn't be preferable of course (there would be so much music left to waste with that option), but they already did it with XC2's DLC so it's plausible that they can work that out with her.
 

P.Kat

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well, my hopes for Layton, Sora, ammy, and Pheonix tanked so Imma call it quits on caring about smash unless one of those characters suddenly show up in game
They still have a chance, and there's nothing against them having a chance to make it in. Don't give up so soon.
 

Iko MattOrr

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Again, complaining that the 83rd character in this game isn't 100% unique seems super nitpicky at best
Well except it WAS NOT A COMPLAINT.
First impression, what I liked, what I disliked. It's not complaining, it's trying to be objective.

Stop putting my words out of context.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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Tbh I’m kinda disappointed by the direct.

I guess it’s not really Min-Min herself, when I first got on Smashboards I rooted for Min-Min, but it’s with the trailer. When I saw Spring Man grab the smash letter I pretty much expected that it wasn’t him and lo and behold he gets punched.

Honestly, I’m not liking these “sike” trailers where you think a certain character gets in only for someone else to get instead. It feels like it punishes you for being excited at the prospect of a character joining and because of that it really sours the mood for the rest of the direct. It’s the reason it took me a long time to get to like Terry because of how anticipated I got of Kyo from the trailer.

In any case, I think the DLC is cool and Vault Boy was a complete surprise. Spirits are off the hook which gives me hope that Rex and Zacian could join in, and I believe Sakurai stated that Min Min was chosen because of the director’s request and not outright because Spring Man is an AT, so Isaac could still have some leverage. So not a shabby start.
Honestly? Yeah, as cool as it was to see them fighting over the invitation, I could go without this particular trend continuing.

It'll probably upset more people who wanted someone else as the newcomer than it will entertain them.
 

Arcadenik

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The top 10 for the Pokemon results in the poll go as follows
It looks like people generally wants a current gen Pokemon (Gen 8 as of this writing) and a third stage grass starter (to complete the starter trio :ultgreninja::ultincineroar:).

There's a silver lining... at least Meowth is currently the #1 most wanted Gen 1 Pokemon. I suppose that is to be expected after we got the series mascot :ultpikachu:, the OG protagonist :ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainerf:, the OG starters :ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:, and the OG legendary Pokemon :ultmewtwo:. All that's left is the OG villainous team.

Here’s hoping that one day Meowth & Team Rocket will be eating ramen noodles at Min Min’s restaurant with Captain Falcon instead of being outside looking in with Spring Man. :awesome:

451DFBDD-1B9A-473D-B1CC-6639517D67BE.gif
 

MooMew64

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I will admit, I cringed a little bit when seeing how SM got treated in the trailer. I'm assuming it was meant to be in good fun and not mean spirited, but unfortunately there will be those who will use it as ammunition to be really rude to SM fans. Maybe it is something they should stop doing with these trailers, seeing as how it definitely seems to encourage some people to behave that way.
 

AceAttorney9000

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Nevertheless, he's still stating that Assist Trophies do in fact, disconfirm.
Yeah... for the base game. Nothing about that statement indicated that promotion to playable through DLC was completely off the table (again, something Sakurai could've addressed in the Min Min presentation but didn't).
 

Scoliosis Jones

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As an aside though, I'm surprised Captain Falcon has been using his voice clips from 64. I always thought he got new ones as some of the lines were different from how he said it in 64, but I guess they had either had other clips like the FS lying around.


I feel we shouldn't be looking at this with a black and white mentality.

Yes Min Min kind of broke expectations since she wasn't the most prominent character in ARMs' marketing, but I don't think every single game should be judged by how it was approached. Min Min happened because of the circumstances behind ARMs roster and the preference of the producer, ARMs so that allowed Sakurai to go with her instead of the poster boy Spring Man. However, the same may not play out with examples like XC2 with Nia over Rex/Pyra since the way the promotion and the story treats the latter with far more relevance then the former, so we probably wouldn't get Nia over the latter two. It's better to look at things by a case-by-case basis, ARMs is an example that due to its nature allowed for Min-Min to be considered on the same level as Spring Man, but that doesn't mean every other game will be looked at with the same mentality.



I feel if Sakurai wanted Elma, he'd just pull a Cloud and add her in with two tracks. It wouldn't be preferable of course (there would be so much music left to waste with that option), but they already did it with XC2's DLC so it's plausible that they can work that out with her.
Thank you, my dude. This was articulated nicely, and was essentially what I was trying to say.
 

zeldasmash

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I think the 'everyone is a protagonist' is simply because there's no story but Spring Man's still the mascot, especially as seen with the final smash. When all the characters show up, Spring Man's the most prominent in that shot. At most, Minmin will act like Morrigan Aensland in the future
This is quite the interesting way to look at it. I never thought of Min Min as the Morrigan of the series. It might truly end up being the case.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Well except it WAS NOT A COMPLAINT.
First impression, what I liked, what I disliked. It's not complaining, it's trying to be objective.

Stop trying to put my words out of context.
It's not out of context though, and those kicks left you a negative first impression. What else am I supposed to see when someone whines that she had some moves shared by other fighters like literally anyone else
I will admit, I cringed a little bit when seeing how SM got treated in the trailer. I'm assuming it was meant to be in good fun and not mean spirited, but unfortunately there will be those who will use it as ammunition to be really rude to SM fans. Maybe it is something they should stop doing with these trailers, seeing as how it definitely seems to encourage some people to behave that way.
Smash fans can't be convinced to stop going "SAKURAI TALKED ABOUT THIS SO IT'S IN SMASH" after Sakurai asked it multiple times, they'll just find other reasons
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Anyway, I figured out Challenger Pack #7.

>Ramen based fighter
>fighting makes you thirsty
>Nintendo collaborates with 3rd party companies all the time
>fighters seem to be unconventional in a lot of ways
>soft drink characters are often slept on

Yeah, I'm thinking he's in
Pepsi_Man.jpg
 

7NATOR

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Vault Boy Continues the Trend of Western Companies getting more extended Content in this game. With stuff like the Ubioft Mii Costumes, Warframe Spirit, Cuphead, and now Vault Boy, I think the 3rd Parties in this Pass could be more western based. Crash, Steve, Master Chief, Scorpion, etc are looking more likely after today in my opinion
 

Slime Scholar

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How many people were actually pushing the "spirits deconfirm" talk after the first Fighter's Pass? I get that everyone's excited about the possibilities but it feels like it's being taken out of context just so people can declare victory over a 'fan rule.'
 

Cosmic77

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As an aside though, I'm surprised Captain Falcon has been using his voice clips from 64. I always thought he got new ones as some of the lines were different from how he said it in 64, but I guess they had either had other clips like the FS lying around.


I feel we shouldn't be looking at this with a black and white mentality.

Yes Min Min kind of broke expectations since she wasn't the most prominent character in ARMs' marketing, but I don't think every single game should be judged by how it was approached. Min Min happened because of the circumstances behind ARMs roster and the preference of the producer, ARMs so that allowed Sakurai to go with her instead of the poster boy Spring Man. However, the same may not play out with examples like XC2 with Nia over Rex/Pyra since the way the promotion and the story treats the latter with far more relevance then the former, so we probably wouldn't get Nia over the latter two. It's better to look at things by a case-by-case basis, ARMs is an example that due to its nature allowed for Min-Min to be considered on the same level as Spring Man, but that doesn't mean every other game will be looked at with the same mentality.



I feel if Sakurai wanted Elma, he'd just pull a Cloud and add her in with two tracks. It wouldn't be preferable of course (there would be so much music left to waste with that option), but they already did it with XC2's DLC so it's plausible that they can work that out with her.
That's the thing. We likely won't know until after the fact. Prior to her reveal, a lot of people didn't think it was Min Min because she wasn't the mascot. Of course she makes sense now; she was just revealed a few hours ago and Sakurai literally told us why she was chosen.

The same thing could happen with another game. For XC2, would Sakurai choose Nia over Rex? I highly doubt it, but maybe the developers would have a reason for wanting her that we're unaware of. That reason probably wouldn't be revealed to us until after the reveal. By then, everyone would be saying that Nia made perfect sense and that the mascot/protagonist rule was still intact because she was a special exception, even though we had been using that rule to discredit her until she was revealed.
 

SirBillyBob

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Just thought of this on the spot but what if they did an Indie Spirit event? And not like the Cuphead one, but an event just featuring a broad array of indie characters. Who would you want to be in it? Or the reverse, for that matter?
 

N3ON

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EDIT: Taken from SmashWiki. That's why the links.
Again, you've taken an example from before DLC was a thing, and you're taking... uh, liberties with your extrapolation. In February 2014, when that PotD appeared, it's entirely possible DLC wasn't on the table yet. 4's DLC wasn't nearly as premeditated as Ultimate's.

You're still using outdated references. There's a reason people don't use Waluigi's PotD or Saki's Dojo entry. They're not actual evidence. Even if they spelt it out as blatantly as people have convinced themselves they do, which they don't, they'd still both be outdated, and therefore they couldn't spell it out, because they exist from a time before the paradigm was a thing. It's like expecting people in the 50s to create laws about internet use.

Plus, somewhat tangentially, you'd think if were a rule this presentation would've given Sakurai the golden opportunity to actually affirm it, yeah? He addressed Spring-Man, he addressed the protagonist thing. Obviously that's not conclusive proof of anything, but it is conspicuous.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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How many people were actually pushing the "spirits deconfirm" talk after the first Fighter's Pass? I get that everyone's excited about the possibilities but it feels like it's being taken out of context just so people can declare victory over a 'fan rule.'
Not a lot of people, really.

But the argument has shown up here or there regardless, and now it's legitimately dead.
 

Guynamednelson

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At this rate, Assist Trophy promotions just don't look likely.

Doesn't mean they're impossible. Especially when you look into the circumstances behind why Min Min was picked and Spring Man wasn't.

Saying AT promotions are impossible isn't fair, but I personally wouldn't get my hopes up. Because there are still no grounds to indicate whether someone like Waluigi or Skull Kid will eventually be more lucky than Spring Man was.
I should probably get a white flag ready, but I won't wave it just yet until we see something like Sakurai going into more detail about Spring Man not being chosen in Famitsu or there still not being an AT promo halfway through the pass or something like that.
 

Iko MattOrr

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It's not out of context though, and those kicks left you a negative first impression. What else am I supposed to see when someone whines that she had some moves shared by other fighters like literally anyone else
It's out of context when it's part of a review where I list all the positive and negative impressions and you only take the negative ones and make it look like I'm complaining.

I don't even know what to say about this, at this point I'm not even sure if you're serious or if you're doing it only to provoke me.
 

Garteam

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Imagine how bad we'd look if the ARMS dev team didn't speak up and Sakurai went with Ninjara as his pick. We really, really slept on him.
 

DarthEnderX

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The former one still isn't actually due to their silly loophole.
Not really, because they've now set the precedent that characters that are not protagonists(even ones that are clearly antagonists) can be called protagonists if the dev wants.

And that precedent can be applied to any game they want.

Which means the rule is now functionally dead. "Protagonist first" means nothing if devs can call anyone a protagonist.
 

I.D.

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Imagine how bad we'd look if the ARMS dev team didn't speak up and Sakurai went with Ninjara as his pick. We really, really slept on him.
I did think people underestimated Ninjara, it's just that, following the train of logic that would make his inclusion possible just ends up with one realizing Min Min is still more likely than him.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Oh frick

I just realized why Vault Boy costume

Min Min is fighter 76

And we got Fallout 76

MIND. BLOWN.
 

Garteam

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I did think people underestimated Ninjara, it's just that, following the train of logic that would make his inclusion possible just ends up with one realizing Min Min is still more likely than him.
To be fair, we don't know how much Min Min's popularity really factored into her inclusion. We know what gave Min Min the main push to get in was the lead dev's request. If it was strictly Sakurai's preference, it really seemed like Ninjara would've been FP6.
 
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I.D.

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To be fair, we don't know how much Min Min's popularity really factored into her inclusion. We know what gave Min Min the main push to get in was the lead dev's request. If it was strictly Sakurai's preference, it really seemed like Ninjara would been FP6.
Right. But we didn't really know what Sakurai thought about the ARMS cast. We did know Min Min was Yabuki's favorite, or at least one of his favorites.
 

SharkLord

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The only thing I was disappointed with in this presentation was no Springman but mainly the weird guides to beating powerful spirits. I thought we could've gotten a neat new mode, but that was just....pointless? Regardless, I still look foward to June 29th.
I'm just peeved that this whole time I could have just used the Staff on Pauline and spared myself the pain.
 
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