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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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GillyGrime

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I don't think it's about a translator- I think its about going in person (as a sign of respect, and that 80 percent of communication is body language).
Sakurai wants to make sure he gets the characters portrayed accurately (at least, this is something he frequently states), and this is in part about him understanding the person communicating with him, directly.

It's part of the reason that, if we were to get a third party company character in this pass, it's very possible it was pushed back- because this will take significantly more resources for Sakurai to now correctly 'learn' how to have these meetings in person (meaning, in a way that meets his high standards).
Has there been anything confirming Sakurai or his team went to the UK to work on the Banjo pack though? As far as I'm aware, Nintendo get the rights to the characters and the rest of it and then Sakurai works his magic to faithfully represent them.
 

MattX20

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From Sakurai's last column for Famitsu, it seemed to me that the pandemic had no impact on the development of DLC, at least not the first half or four fighters.
 

pupNapoleon

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Has there been anything confirming Sakurai or his team went to the UK to work on the Banjo pack though? As far as I'm aware, Nintendo get the rights to the characters and the rest of it and then Sakurai works his magic to faithfully represent them.
I do not have that answer.
Though I'm sure it would also be possible that the creators came to Japan.
Especially if it was just Grant.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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From Sakurai's last column for Famitsu, it seemed to me that the pandemic had no impact on the development of DLC, at least not the first half or four fighters.
I believe his first one on COVID-19 has said that they couldn't finalize one of the 3rd party characters yet. We don't know if that issue has passed since then however.
 

Hinata

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guys don't tell anyone but i'm friends with sakurai and he gave me an early look at the render for the ARMS character

FP6 Leak (Scaled Down).png
 

Glaciacott

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I don't think it's about a translator- I think its about going in person (as a sign of respect, and that 80 percent of communication is body language).
Sakurai wants to make sure he gets the characters portrayed accurately (at least, this is something he frequently states), and this is in part about him understanding the person communicating with him, directly.

It's part of the reason that, if we were to get a third party company character in this pass, it's very possible it was pushed back- because this will take significantly more resources for Sakurai to now correctly 'learn' how to have these meetings in person (meaning, in a way that meets his high standards).
add to this the time zones factor. Even if you manage to do work via e-mail and video chat and all that, there is a significant portion of time where the western workday won’t align with the Japanese work day.

so where issues could be hashed out in hours within Japan, when working with other countries it takes days instead.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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add to this the time zones factor. Even if you manage to do work via e-mail and video chat and all that, there is a significant portion of time where the western workday won’t align with the Japanese work day.

so where issues could be hashed out in hours within Japan, when working with other countries it takes days instead.
I'm no businessman, but it kinda sounds like that's what appointments are for.
 

MattX20

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I believe his first one on COVID-19 has said that they couldn't finalize one of the 3rd party characters yet. We don't know if that issue has passed since then however.
Given that the second Fighter Pass has supposedly been in the works since last year, my guess that Sakurai is referring to a character from the latter half
 

Glaciacott

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I'm no businessman, but it kinda sounds like that's what appointments are for.
Yea, of course, and it’s fun when the time you have for meetings and appointments lines up with the other person being asleep.
Or are you suggesting people will just be chill with having meetings at 4am just because it works well for Japan time?
 

SKX31

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To be fair, Brawl's tether recoveries could be ledge hogged. Now that you can't do that anymore, tether recoveries are just fine. Winged Pikmin is definitely better though since it gives Olimar players less tiny multi-colored creatures to keep track of. Though it combined with a very fast Pikmin Pluck does make for less regard for the Pikmin's safety.
That's true - also, the Chain worked on a "More Pikmin alive = Longer Chain" basis, which is partly why it was awful. And yes, his Pikmin being halved from 6 to 3 in Sm4sh is a blessing overall (even as 6 Pikmin is one reason why Brawl Olimar was almost broken competitively - he could just farm purples and whites and go to town with attacks one couldn't reliably punish).*

I believe his first one on COVID-19 has said that they couldn't finalize one of the 3rd party characters yet. We don't know if that issue has passed since then however.
I'm going to bet on "not just yet". Even in cases where countries have contained the virus (South Korea) people are generally being much more cautious about going to other places than before (most would rather avoid a second wave). That's likely to be the case even within Japan for the forseeable future.

Yea, of course, and it’s fun when the time you have for meetings and appointments lines up with the other person being asleep.
Or are you suggesting people will just be chill with having meetings at 4am just because it works well for Japan time?
This handy site has comparisions between different time zones. I chose Pacific since there are a lot of L.A / Seattle-based video game companies.

There still seems to be time for appointments still. 8.00 Japan Time to 9 / 10 Japan time, 1 to 2 hours.

*(Incidentally why I likewise approve of Diddy's bananas being limited to just one at a time in Sm4sh, from 2 in Brawl. With 2 bananas a competitive Diddy could infinite people with banana peels. Brawl was a honest experiment, it just turned out to be extremely janky. Still appriciate it for what it was.)

(And yes, every single Smash game has broken stuff. I just find Brawl's broken stuff really fascinating because of the jank.)
 
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ZephyrZ

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Last night I had a dream that Mechanica got in as the ARMS pick, except that her mech suit had gotten a redesign to look more humanoid.

Now I really doubt the character pick will be her (as much as I want a Superheavy DLC), but it did get me thinking about a redesign. What if the new character is Springman or Ribbon Girl, but with a theoretical ARMS 2 redesign?


Honestly I really doubt that'll be the case. The ARMS test punch getting a revival indicates to me they're more interested in getting more life out of the old game right now, something that'd be kind of counterproductive if they had a new game just around the corner. But I still think the idea is worth throwing out there as a "what if".
 

Cosmic77

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Yea, of course, and it’s fun when the time you have for meetings and appointments lines up with the other person being asleep.
Or are you suggesting people will just be chill with having meetings at 4am just because it works well for Japan time?
There are 24 hours in a day. Even if the person lives in the EST timezone, a timezone that's almost the exact opposite of Japan's, they should still be able to schedule a decent appointment time.

For example, an 8:00 AM appointment in New York would be a 9:00 PM appointment in Japan.
 

Michael the Spikester

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This is one of the reasons I think we will see a fighters pass 3.
As well as a personal feeling that Sakurai will want to continue to work on the game (Nintendo would surely say yes) to spread world joy, in a time of global crisis and heartache.
Or individual DLC like Piranha Plant.

I could see that by adding four extra more to round up 90 (92) fighters.
 

Glaciacott

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The point isn’t that you cannot have meeting between Japan and the west. The point is that it is much more complicated to arrange and that in turn can delay work more than if you just work within Japan.



with a western company you have to assume that both parties will have time during these overlap hours or that someone will just have to suck it up and have the meeting outside of work hours. otherwise you really just have these two hours to work together

within Japan, you know everyone is at work during roughly the same hours and that makes it significantly easier to arrange meetings convenient for both parties.
You can also send an e-mail and expect response within your workday, as opposed to sending and having to wait until the other party responds overnight.

This isn’t even getting to other complications like different regions having different holidays and that potentially delaying work more.

Lastly, this isn’t just theorizing. I say this as someone who works with other time zones. It will always be easier to get work done domestically than with other countries.

For example, an 8:00 AM appointment in New York would be a 9:00 PM appointment in Japan.
9pm isn’t normal work hours. It would be rude to assume that other parties will be available at that time.

these do happen though, when emergencies arise or crunch is happening, but it would not be the norm.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Yea, of course, and it’s fun when the time you have for meetings and appointments lines up with the other person being asleep.
Or are you suggesting people will just be chill with having meetings at 4am just because it works well for Japan time?
I mean, you gotta do what ya gotta do.

I misinterpreted what you said though. I thought you meant they'd have to meet for much shorter amounts of time rather than taking a bit longer to actually meet.
 

CaptainAmerica

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The point isn’t that you cannot have meeting between Japan and the west. The point is that it is much more complicated to arrange and that in turn can delay work more than if you just work within Japan.



with a western company you have to assume that both parties will have time during these overlap hours or that someone will just have to suck it up and have the meeting outside of work hours. otherwise you really just have these two hours to work together

within Japan, you know everyone is at work during roughly the same hours and that makes it significantly easier to arrange meetings convenient for both parties.
You can also send an e-mail and expect response within your workday, as opposed to sending and having to wait until the other party responds overnight.

This isn’t even getting to other complications like different regions having different holidays and that potentially delaying work more.

Lastly, this isn’t just theorizing. I say this as someone who works with other time zones. It will always be easier to get work done domestically than with other countries.



9pm isn’t normal work hours. It would be rude to assume that other parties will be available at that time.

these do happen though, when emergencies arise or crunch is happening, but it would not be the norm.
But if they were putting in a Western character, would they need to have daily meetings? It seems like they could have meetings as they're finalizing the deal, then a few periodic updates, and then one to show off the product. I can't imagine that Sakurai even has daily meetings for making Nintendo characters, since that's a lot of time spent not working on the characters.

Yes, Smash has focused on the Eastern video game base, and it's tougher to deal with people in other countries, but I don't think it's as impossible as people are trying to make it sound.

I just can't imagine a circumstance where some executive would say "Well, we could participate in this really lucrative opportunity, but I'd have to stay at work late one day and that's inconvenient. We don't need the money, right?"
 

Michael the Spikester

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I honestly don't understand what's stopping Sakurai and western developers or 3rd parties for that matter from just skyping each other.
 

SKX31

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Lastly, this isn’t just theorizing. I say this as someone who works with other time zones. It will always be easier to get work done domestically than with other countries.
I wanted to point out that: While different time zones are a real hindrance (won't dispute that), they're not impossible to overcome or work around. Even a difference as drastic as Japan / EST if need be, as Cosmic77 Cosmic77 pointed out. I chose PST for my example since that's where NoA, Microsoft and many other companies are headquatered.

Quoting the site:

8:00 AM (8:00) Japan Time =
4:00 PM (16:00) Previous Day PDT
8:30 AM (8:30) Japan Time =
4:30 PM (16:30) Previous Day PDT
9:00 AM (9:00) Japan Time =
5:00 PM (17:00) Previous Day PDT
9:30 AM (9:30) Japan Time =
5:30 PM (17:30) Previous Day PDT
10:00 AM (10:00) Japan Time =
6:00 PM (18:00) Previous Day PDT
That said, it's fully understandable if Sakurai and Nintendo agreed to prioritize the first party / Japanese third party choices because of the limitations.

Honestly I really doubt that'll be the case. The ARMS test punch getting a revival indicates to me they're more interested in getting more life out of the old game right now, something that'd be kind of counterproductive if they had a new game just around the corner. But I still think the idea is worth throwing out there as a "what if".
That is pretty interesting, especially since Nintendo did say (IIRC) they were done with updating ARMS 1. Maybe they considered bringing ARMS into the Smash fold since it sold pretty well (2 million) but didn't have much real staying power besides the competitive base and wanted the re-injection.
 
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Glaciacott

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But if they were putting in a Western character, would they need to have daily meetings? It seems like they could have meetings as they're finalizing the deal, then a few periodic updates, and then one to show off the product. I can't imagine that Sakurai even has daily meetings for making Nintendo characters, since that's a lot of time spent not working on the characters.

Yes, Smash has focused on the Eastern video game base, and it's tougher to deal with people in other countries, but I don't think it's as impossible as people are trying to make it sound.

I just can't imagine a circumstance where some executive would say "Well, we could participate in this really lucrative opportunity, but I'd have to stay at work late one day and that's inconvenient. We don't need the money, right?"
I have no clue what transpires when it comes to adding a character to smash. My guess is that there's meetings to discuss the possibility, meetings for Sakurai to present his ideas and ensure they are approved, and likely other random meetings to figure out things like rights and licenses which would probably involve other people beyond sakurai (legal representatitves, publishers, etc.)

(edit: come to think of it, there's probably more meetings to also hash out logistics over the music choices and approval for the stages and other assets being made for these.)

I agree with your point that it's not impossible, and I also believe we should expect a western character as a possibility... Crash and Ray Man in particular are in solid positions. And I feel like a lot of the early meetings may have already happened (hopefully) so they'd probably be at around the point where only updates or confirmation is necessary, in which case e-mail and a handful of short meetings should suffice.

My response was to someone highlighting that working with other countries isn't just complicated because of translators. And it's true, translation isn't normally the issue as much as timing. Which is why trade conferences are huge! You have a reason to bring in someone from Japan for more than just one meeting, which makes it financially reasonable. Then you can use that time to work out deals with other companies. GDC and E3 not happening this year and COVID preventing travel altogether is a huge blocker for that sort of stuff.
 
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DrifloonEmpire

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If Octolings end up being as much of a clone as Lucas or Wolf, I'd be fine paying full price for them.

There's plenty of weapons left that haven't been touched yet, and if Sakurai added in a few of the special weapons (those OP weapons that you can use once your meter is filled) outside of the Final Smash, I think you could make Octoling a fully unique character.
Fair point. Though they'd still be a pretty underwhelming choice, especially after Byleth and ARMS. While it's always good to have a new IP in Smash in ARMS case, these three aren't exactly pass sellers, and there aren't a ton of people clamoring for another Splatoon rep right now.
 
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Speed Weed

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hey
so i had a thought
smash spec i feel would be better if we spent more time going "hey wouldn't this be cool" over going "hey shut up you're stupid for wanting x thing"
so how about we just spend sometime talking about some series that, while obscure, dormant or just plain not really talked about that much in terms of smash, we'd still love to see in the game

i'll start by mentioning a real hidden gem by capcom: power stone.

(i still can't for the life of me figure out how to upload images so here's a playthrough of the psp port of the first game)


what you're seeing is power stone, a 3D arena fighting game released by capcom for arcades and the dreamcast in 1999. just one year later, they released a sequel for the same systems, and it was basically the first one but with more content, with one noteworthy point being that it introduced the objective best character, accel

the gist of the plot is that it's the 19th century, and people from all over the world are travelling to find the legendary power stone, that can grant anything they want. it's not really anything to write home about, but oh well

now the game itself is an arena fighter where basically, you have the characters fighting in closed 3D spaces. sometimes items can show up, sometimes the stage itself has some cool gimmick, but the main thing is that sometimes, the titular power stones will appear, and by collecting 3 or so of them, you can activate your super form. it's almost 3D smash bros, in a way. the main reason behind its cult status is just how damn fun it is. seriously, it's great!

now a notable thing is that it's probably one of capcom's most neglected franchises period. a good example of this is how, to this day, there has not been a single playable power stone character in a single vs. game. not in mvc, not in cvs, not even in ****ing tatsunoko vs capcom. even in the non-vs capcom crossovers like project x zone? not there. this is probably a big blow to its smash chances and it sucks, man. don't get me wrong, wright would make me giddy and i wouldn't mind dante either, but power stone i think would be a great fit.

now, for the rep, i think there'd be two main choices: edward falcon (the aviator dude and the main character) and rouge (the belly dancer chick and pretty much the most popular character. so like the min min of power stone). i'm covering falcon here, as he is the main character and i like him better.

well, basically? edward would probably be another brawler. but, just like there's many ways of sword-swingy, there's many ways of punchy-kicky. and he i feel would bring a new kind of brawling. a more refined, "classier" type of brawling, so to say. basically, in smash, if little mac were balrog, edward falcon would be dudley.

but it's not like he has just punches either: there's various items and stage objects in the original games that he can use. off the top of my head, a couple examples would be: he could throw crates or barrels, he could pull out a big-ass cartoony machine gun, he could materialize a pole out of thin air, twirl around it like a gymnast and launch himself at the opponents... he could also have a power stone gimmick where he has a meter that fills up and once it fills up, he turns into his super form, who's an iron man offshoot of sorts, and so he could also do stuff like shoot out rockets. he also has a really cool design unlike any other character in smash (unless you wanna call him british ken).

so, i think this could be a fun experiment to get to know some more series and find out about some underdog potential for smash. i wanna see what series you guys bring up, so post away!

also it took me like an hour to type this
 

Trevenant

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hey
so i had a thought
smash spec i feel would be better if we spent more time going "hey wouldn't this be cool" over going "hey shut up you're stupid for wanting x thing"
so how about we just spend sometime talking about some series that, while obscure, dormant or just plain not really talked about that much in terms of smash, we'd still love to see in the game

i'll start by mentioning a real hidden gem by capcom: power stone.

(i still can't for the life of me figure out how to upload images so here's a playthrough of the psp port of the first game)


what you're seeing is power stone, a 3D arena fighting game released by capcom for arcades and the dreamcast in 1999. just one year later, they released a sequel for the same systems, and it was basically the first one but with more content, with one noteworthy point being that it introduced the objective best character, accel

the gist of the plot is that it's the 19th century, and people from all over the world are travelling to find the legendary power stone, that can grant anything they want. it's not really anything to write home about, but oh well

now the game itself is an arena fighter where basically, you have the characters fighting in closed 3D spaces. sometimes items can show up, sometimes the stage itself has some cool gimmick, but the main thing is that sometimes, the titular power stones will appear, and by collecting 3 or so of them, you can activate your super form. it's almost 3D smash bros, in a way. the main reason behind its cult status is just how damn fun it is. seriously, it's great!

now a notable thing is that it's probably one of capcom's most neglected franchises period. a good example of this is how, to this day, there has not been a single playable power stone character in a single vs. game. not in mvc, not in cvs, not even in ****ing tatsunoko vs capcom. even in the non-vs capcom crossovers like project x zone? not there. this is probably a big blow to its smash chances and it sucks, man. don't get me wrong, wright would make me giddy and i wouldn't mind dante either, but power stone i think would be a great fit.

now, for the rep, i think there'd be two main choices: edward falcon (the aviator dude and the main character) and rouge (the belly dancer chick and pretty much the most popular character. so like the min min of power stone). i'm covering falcon here, as he is the main character and i like him better.

well, basically? edward would probably be another brawler. but, just like there's many ways of sword-swingy, there's many ways of punchy-kicky. and he i feel would bring a new kind of brawling. a more refined, "classier" type of brawling, so to say. basically, in smash, if little mac were balrog, edward falcon would be dudley.

but it's not like he has just punches either: there's various items and stage objects in the original games that he can use. off the top of my head, a couple examples would be: he could throw crates or barrels, he could pull out a big-ass cartoony machine gun, he could materialize a pole out of thin air, twirl around it like a gymnast and launch himself at the opponents... he could also have a power stone gimmick where he has a meter that fills up and once it fills up, he turns into his super form, who's an iron man offshoot of sorts, and so he could also do stuff like shoot out rockets. he also has a really cool design unlike any other character in smash (unless you wanna call him british ken).

so, i think this could be a fun experiment to get to know some more series and find out about some underdog potential for smash. i wanna see what series you guys bring up, so post away!

also it took me like an hour to type this
I always liked the idea of Powerstone in Smash. The only real idea I had and took seriously would be stones randomly spawning on the stage to fill the gauge. I never really thought of a thematic way you could collectively reference the series in a moveset. I'm yet to actually see a moveset idea for a powerstone character in general.
 

Arcanir

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We actually do have a bit of a glimpse into the development process of a Third Party character as Rare talked a bit about it. The initial meeting between parties will have him and the core members of the company, which in Banjo's case it was Gregg Mayles (his creator), Craig Duncan (Rare's Studio Head), Andrew Wesley (Business Team) and Paul Cummingham (Partnerships). After that they keep contact over the course of the character's development where they share concepts, animations and the like, which takes about a year.

So there does seem to be a good level of constant contact between the two parties, maybe not to a daily extent but it doe sound like they had more then just a few updates between each other.
 

snowgolem

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If we’re encouraging new ideas for speculation then there’s something which I’ve mentioned once or twice but I haven’t seen elsewhere at all. Max Caulfield. I know in the game, time goes backwards around Max, but imagine it the other way around. A meter which charges up over time, and by using your down B, you can rewind Max’s character as the meter starts to go down. If you make a mistake and you’re about to jump into a Falcon Punch or smth, just use the down b to not do that. Of course, something like that would have to be nerfed severely from the original game. Final smash could maybe be just Shadow’s assist trophy except it freezes you immediately? I don’t know. Just an idea.
 

DarthEnderX

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This is one of the reasons I think we will see a fighters pass 3.
As well as a personal feeling that Sakurai will want to continue to work on the game (Nintendo would surely say yes) to spread world joy, in a time of global crisis and heartache.
I mean, while I want you to be right, I would hope that by the time they'd start making Pass 3, the time of global crisis will be long over.

There are 24 hours in a day. Even if the person lives in the EST timezone, a timezone that's almost the exact opposite of Japan's, they should still be able to schedule a decent appointment time.

For example, an 8:00 AM appointment in New York would be a 9:00 PM appointment in Japan.
Plus, like, we already know Sakurai doesn't sleep.

I honestly don't understand what's stopping Sakurai and western developers or 3rd parties for that matter from just skyping each other.
According to Sakurai "security". Which I assume means he's worried there will be more leaks if they just start emailing assets around.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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I honestly don't understand what's stopping Sakurai and western developers or 3rd parties for that matter from just skyping each other.
Well that used to not be a necessary and they usually like to play hands on with the character, I believe. Now though? Yeah, Zoom or whatever is probably the best way to go about it.
 

Schnee117

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If we’re encouraging new ideas for speculation then there’s something which I’ve mentioned once or twice but I haven’t seen elsewhere at all. Max Caulfield. I know in the game, time goes backwards around Max, but imagine it the other way around. A meter which charges up over time, and by using your down B, you can rewind Max’s character as the meter starts to go down. If you make a mistake and you’re about to jump into a Falcon Punch or smth, just use the down b to not do that. Of course, something like that would have to be nerfed severely from the original game.
Geras from MK11 is a fantastic example of this in a fighting game.
He rewinds himself about 4-5 seconds and it's to wherever he was and whatever his health was at. So if he's just taken a hefty combo he can undo it. The trade-off is it takes all of his defensive meter which has a pretty hefty cooldown.
 

Inoj

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I do worry about Western 3rd parties as unless Zoom calls will suffice, there's no way that Sakurai will get the in person approvals he needs for the process.
Well that used to not be a necessary and they usually like to play hands on with the character, I believe. Now though? Yeah, Zoom or whatever is probably the best way to go about it.
The problem with Zoom is that it is reeeally insecure. There's a video of a guy basically hacking into various School conferences and causing chaos. A "journalist" was fired for hacking into competitors conferences and leaking the conversations IIRC.
 

snowgolem

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Geras from MK11 is a fantastic example of this in a fighting game.
He rewinds himself about 4-5 seconds and it's to wherever he was and whatever his health was at. So if he's just taken a hefty combo he can undo it. The trade-off is it takes all of his defensive meter which has a pretty hefty cooldown.
Watched some gameplay. This is definitely how I imagined it. I feel like people might get annoyed just because of how good of a recover it would be, but maybe in exchange Max could be like Yoshi and have an up B that has no recovery? That way, similar to hero, if her meter isn’t charged at all, they can’t recover. Although this would make it extremely hard to grab the ledge. I don’t know. Thanks for the example!
 
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Icedragonadam

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So some news about the Corona Virus situation in Japan since it could pertain to current Smash DLC development plans.
 

SKX31

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If we’re encouraging new ideas for speculation then there’s something which I’ve mentioned once or twice but I haven’t seen elsewhere at all. Max Caulfield. I know in the game, time goes backwards around Max, but imagine it the other way around. A meter which charges up over time, and by using your down B, you can rewind Max’s character as the meter starts to go down. If you make a mistake and you’re about to jump into a Falcon Punch or smth, just use the down b to not do that. Of course, something like that would have to be nerfed severely from the original game. Final smash could maybe be just Shadow’s assist trophy except it freezes you immediately? I don’t know. Just an idea.
Geras from MK11 is a fantastic example of this in a fighting game.
He rewinds himself about 4-5 seconds and it's to wherever he was and whatever his health was at. So if he's just taken a hefty combo he can undo it. The trade-off is it takes all of his defensive meter which has a pretty hefty cooldown.
Geras is probably the best example, the other two examples I can think of (Overwatch's Tracer - Recall - and Dota 2's Weaver - Time Lapse) both have very similar abilities, but tailored to their genres (FPS and MOBA respectively). Both cases reset to where they were and whatever their healths were at the time (seconds before). Tracer has a low HP pool no matter what, and the 12 seconds cooldown on her Recall is a major amount of time in an FPS. If she's focused down in a firefight or stunned, she goes down pretty fast.

Weaver's Time Lapse is upgradeable to ridicolous degrees (Aghanim's Scepter, an expensive late game item, reduces the cooldown from 40 to 16 secs and allows the bug to cast this ability on an targeted ally, thus becoming a possible get out of jail free card for a powerful teammate), but said upgrades are dependent on lots of levels and gold. Even then, Weaver's got a low HP pool too, generally, and is weak to silence spells and being comboed / bursted down. Weaver can buy protective items (like Linken's Sphere - yes, another Nintendo reference. Auto-blocks a targeted spell every 12ish secs.). but said protective items are also expensive. And MOBA games can be lost before the late game even starts.

My point with both examples are: both characters can be absolutely shredded in 12 secs if they're not careful. So can Geras.

Max in this case wouldn't necessarily need to lack a recovery Up-B or be humongously nerfed. Something like Geras' system could work. Additionally, Max could be a light character and easy to launch / KO (much like Tracer and Weaver) and dependent on timing that rewind right in order to prolong her stay on stage. She could be agile and mobile (Like the other examples) but also have trouble in disadvantage (like being vurnerable to juggling or something along those lines).

Also, there's always the flipside of rewinding time in Mortal Kombat, Overwatch and Dota 2: an ill-advised use of time reversal can lead to death. This can also easily apply to Smash.

(Oh crud, just forgot, the Prince of Sands of Time. Also relies on rewinding time to fix mistakes. Agile, but doesn't have a high HP pool either, and he has limited "rewind time" uses, which he can only refill by killing enemies for example. Still fits my point.)
 

snowgolem

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Geras is probably the best example, the other two examples I can think of (Overwatch's Tracer - Recall - and Dota 2's Weaver - Time Lapse) both have very similar abilities, but tailored to their genres (FPS and MOBA respectively). Both cases reset to where they were and whatever their healths were at the time (seconds before). Tracer has a low HP pool no matter what, and the 12 seconds cooldown on her Recall is a major amount of time in an FPS. If she's focused down in a firefight or stunned, she goes down pretty fast.

Weaver's Time Lapse is upgradeable to ridicolous degrees (Aghanim's Scepter, an expensive late game item, reduces the cooldown from 40 to 16 secs and allows the bug to cast this ability on an targeted ally, thus becoming a possible get out of jail free card for a powerful teammate), but said upgrades are dependent on lots of levels and gold. Even then, Weaver's got a low HP pool too, generally, and is weak to silence spells and being comboed / bursted down. Weaver can buy protective items (like Linken's Sphere - yes, another Nintendo reference. Auto-blocks a targeted spell every 12ish secs.). but said protective items are also expensive. And MOBA games can be lost before the late game even starts.

My point with both examples are: both characters can be absolutely shredded in 12 secs if they're not careful. So can Geras.

Max in this case wouldn't necessarily need to lack a recovery Up-B or be humongously nerfed. Something like Geras' system could work. Additionally, Max could be a light character and easy to launch / KO (much like Tracer and Weaver) and dependent on timing that rewind right in order to prolong her stay on stage. She could be agile and mobile (Like the other examples) but also have trouble in disadvantage (like being vurnerable to juggling or something along those lines).

Also, there's always the flipside of rewinding time in Mortal Kombat, Overwatch and Dota 2: an ill-advised use of time reversal can lead to death. This can also easily apply to Smash.

(Oh crud, just forgot, the Prince of Sands of Time. Also relies on rewinding time to fix mistakes. Agile, but doesn't have a high HP pool either, and he has limited "rewind time" uses, which he can only refill by killing enemies for example. Still fits my point.)
You’re right. I just keep imagining easily recovering, getting out of combos, and fixing mistakes you’ve made with the greatest of ease. The thing is, it will be way different in the competitive scene of Smash. Don’t know much about Dota 2 but I know Overwatch and I know that indeed anything can happen. But in Smash’s competitive scene you are in a large area where if the single opponent is near you you can just rewind and now they’re not. You could also just camp if you use it conservatively. In Smash’s non competitive games, with items all over the place and multiple opponents, it would be fine. But I feel like people would hate her competitively. I mean i don’t play MK so Geras may just prove this point wrong but I do think there’s a big difference, given how much space you have in Smash Bros.
 

Glaciacott

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You’re right. I just keep imagining easily recovering, getting out of combos, and fixing mistakes you’ve made with the greatest of ease. The thing is, it will be way different in the competitive scene of Smash. Don’t know much about Dota 2 but I know Overwatch and I know that indeed anything can happen. But in Smash’s competitive scene you are in a large area where if the single opponent is near you you can just rewind and now they’re not. You could also just camp if you use it conservatively. In Smash’s non competitive games, with items all over the place and multiple opponents, it would be fine. But I feel like people would hate her competitively. I mean i don’t play MK so Geras may just prove this point wrong but I do think there’s a big difference, given how much space you have in Smash Bros.
Considering in Overwatch most people above a certain rank of expertise can read where Tracer will recall to, I'm assuming Smash players would also have no problem reading a Tracer recall and punishing accordingly.

Also, that's where balance would come in. If they do Tracer they should have cooldowns for abilities like recall and blink, otherwise it'd get pretty stupid pretty fast. With a decent enough cooldown Recall becomes something to use in an emergency to avoid one mistake, but not something that can save you constantly from a better player reading you and being in your head.
 
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