Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Glaciacott]

If you had to add another generic enemy (or something equally insignificant), what would you choose?

First party? Probably a bulborb. To me it's the cleanest and most recognizable designs in Pikmin outside of the Pikmin themselves

If I could go third party, I'd throw in a murloc.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Honestly not counting clones, I don't think Smash Ultimate's swordsmens are too overly samey, it's just compared to the wild diversity of the rest of the cast makes them seem more alike by comparison.

It's pretty easy for someone who plays apart from , for instance. But at a glance, they seem way more like eachother then, say, a little rat that shoots lightning bolts , hardcore sci-fi girl in an iron man suit , and a Peanuts character with psychic powers and a baseball bat .

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's kind of a 50/50 split between the characters who carve their own niche within the roster

And those that are textbook swordfighters (with slight deviance) and/or are clones of other characters.

It doesn't help that they're also aesthetically similar due to hailing from the same series and in some cases, are different takes on a preexisting character.

Wait...

Why is Roy in the unique section, but Marth, Ike, Byleth and Corrin aren't?

If its about aesthetics then Corrin definitely stands out on his color scheme alone.

 

[osby]

And those that are textbook swordfighters (with slight deviance) and/or are clones of other characters.

I know you're hellbent on Corrin's moveset not being unique but half of a moveset is hardly "slight deviance".

Also if Byleth is a sword user, people should also consider Ganon one.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also if Byleth is a sword user, people should also consider Ganon one.

Wait a minute...

Does Ganondorf unironically have more sword moves than Byleth if we count the whip attacks as a separate kind of attack?

Ganondorf has three, one for each of his smash attacks...

Byleth has... only two then. Up tilt and forward tilt.

Huh....

 

[osby]

Wait a minute...

Does Ganondorf unironically have more sword moves than Byleth if we count the whip attacks as a separate kind of attack?

Ganondorf has three, one for each of his smash attacks...

Byleth has... only two then. Up tilt and forward tilt.

Huh....

Don't forget Byleth's dash attack.

So they are actually equal.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Don't forget their dash attack.

So they are actually equal.

Ah yeah that's right.

Then yeah they are equal!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If I could go third party, I'd throw in a murloc.

I'll accept it if they keep that iconic voice clip.

Wait...

Why is Roy in the unique section, but Marth, Ike, Byleth and Corrin aren't?

If its about aesthetics then Corrin definitely stands out on his color scheme alone.

I know you're hellbent on Corrin's moveset not being unique but half of a moveset is hardly "slight deviance".

Don't get me wrong, these characters are different from each other, but they are still firmly in the swordfighter archetype in a way that I don't feel the other sword wielders are.

EDIT: Though as the pioneer of this archetype, Marth should definitely be in the unique category.

Also if Byleth is a sword user, people should also consider Ganon one.

The sword is Byleth's main weapon, which isn't really the case for Ganondorf.

Don't forget Byleth's dash attack.

So they are actually equal.

Ah yeah that's right.

Then yeah they are equal!

No Byleth wins; Some of his throws use the sword without applying the whipsword trait (his Up Throw does at least).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Don't get me wrong, these characters are different from each other, but they are still firmly in the swordfighter archetype in a way that I don't feel the other sword wielders are.

But...

Mii Swordfighter literally borrows half his moves from other charactes.

And most of those are from Link.

No Byleth wins; Some of his throws use the sword (his Up Throw does at least).

I think those count as whip moves instead of sword moves.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Super late to the discussion, threw a wishlist together with the loose theme of "alternate self".

 

[osby]

Don't get me wrong, these characters are different from each other, but they are still firmly in the swordfighter archetype in a way that I don't feel the other sword wielders are.

Isn't what you feel a little subjective, though? I don't think Ike is in Marth's character archetype any more than Cloud, for example, being heavy and slow and all.

Either way, I don't want to get into another sword debate that goes on for pages so that's all I say.

 

[Thermithral]

If I could go third party, I'd throw in a murloc.

Not just any murloc, it has got to be Murky, the murloc of a thousand professions!

 

[ZephyrZ]

I still stand by that in terms of gameplay, Roy actually plays the least like Marth of all the Fire Emblem characters. I will die on this hill.

Come and get me, filthy casuals.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I still stand by that in terms of gameplay, Roy actually plays the least like Marth of all the Fire Emblem characters. I will die on this hill.
View attachment 271899
Come and get me, filthy casuals.

How can you say that...

When Robin exists?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But...

Mii Swordfighter literally borrows half his moves from other charactes.

And most of those are from Link.

The Mii Swordfighter is weird to me. It simultaneously feels like all of the swordfighters and none of them at the same time. I think it's because its moves are designed to be evocative of other characters without actually ripping them directly, and the moves that are original are pretty funky.

Though this perception of it is probably influenced by the fact that he's basically Neutral Air, the character when I play as him.

I think those count as whip moves instead of sword moves.

His Up Throw does not use the whip trait at all. It's similar to Cloud's Up Aerial.

Super late to the discussion, threw a wishlist together with the loose theme of "alternate self".

Spoiler: Image

View attachment 271896

The Masked Man isn't in the game though...

EDIT: And no, Lucas's pallet swap doesn't count.

I don't think Ike is in Marth's character archetype any more than Cloud, for example, being heavy and slow and all.

I disagree. He still plays that slower, more spacing heavy gameplan whereas Cloud is much more in your face.

 

[ZephyrZ]

How can you say that...

When Robin exists?

I forgot Robin existed.
I'd probably put Robin in around the same level of difference as Roy, but I'll still give the slight edge to my boy.

Robin is a long-mid ranged zoner/trap character who likes to keep opponents out with his projectiles and spaced Levin aerials when he has them. He thrives off of ledgetrapping thanks to archfire.

Marth is a midrange zoner who likes to keep opponents fight in the midrange where he can reach them, but they can't reach him. He has strong ledge trapping and corner pressure. His style of zoning is quite a bit different from Robin's, but he's still a zoner.

Roy is one of the purest forms of rushdown character we have in the game, second only to Fox and maybe Captain Falcon. He wants to be in their face constantly pressing buttons on your shield at point blank. When he's in midrange, his goal is to dash forward and change that to close range. He's meant to be the anti-thesis to Marth, and while he wasn't really able to be that in previous titles Ultimate's decreased landing lag and shield nerfs finally lets him succeed at being the hyper-aggressive melee fighter he's meant to be.

Obligatory "Hiya Swamp".

 

[Will]

How can you say that...

When Robin exists?

Honestly as much as I hate him I'm gonna have to say Corrin feels the least like Marth based on the account that he's Jake Long the Nohrian Dragon.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly as much as I hate him I'm gonna have to say Corrin feels the least like Marth based on the account that he's Jake Long the Nohrian Dragon.

Eh, they still have some tipper sweetspots, even though that's not their specialty like Marth.

 

[Will]

Eh, they still have some tipper sweetspots, even though that's not their specialty like Marth.

Corrin has tipper effects? People play Corrin enough to know he has tipper effects?

I'm not really sure what this talk is about but if it's another way to shill more unique Fire Emblem I'm all for it, gimme Sigurd and Leif baybeeeee.

 

[ZephyrZ]

In terms of pure gameplay, some of Corrin's uniqueness got lost in Ultimate. His DFS and Dragon Lunge are still flashy and stand out amongst the swordsmen, but they were both nerfed so he gets to use them a lot less.

His F-Smash is still really unique. Its crazy range doesn't stand out as much as it used to thanks to Simon and Byleth but he'll still always have that charging hitbox at point blank. But at the end of the day he's still a character who relies mostly on mid-range disjoints. He's in the same archetype as Marth, just with a flashy twist.

But hey, I'm a crazy person who thinks Ivysaur almost fits in the Marth archetype but Roy doesn't. This is what happens when you dive too deep into character theory and the CCI. You start to see characters not just as characters but also as *shudders* functions.

Corrin has tipper effects? People play Corrin enough to know he has tipper effects?

Not on his sword attacks. When he turns one of his hands or feet into a spear, the point has a tipper. F-Smash, D-smash (the back hit), Up Smash and I believe Nair all have them.

 

[Spongeboob]

The way I see it, Byleth and Corrin proper are anime swordsmen. However, Smash throws "swordsmen" out of the window for Byleth's moveset and takes liberties with Corrin's.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm still gonna say Corrin and Byleth feel like the ones who drifted the farthest away from Marth overall.

 

[osby]

The way I see it, Byleth and Corrin proper are anime swordsmen. However, Smash throws "swordsmen" out of the window for Byleth's moveset and takes liberties with Corrin's.

So, Byleth is an anime swordsman that... isn't a swordsman?

 

[Spongeboob]

So, Byleth is an anime swordsman that... isn't a swordsman?

In some weird way, yes.

 

[Knight Dude]

I know people got tired of swords cause of all the anime/fire emblem people. But I'll keep it a stack and say Dante, Hayabusa, and Nightmare at the very least would be great choices.

That said, more Gun Warriors would be sick. Doom Slayer, Master Chief, Mega Man X, Bill/Lance, Lara would be good choices for that.

But if you really want to complain, get mad at the fact most game creators/publishers ect. have their protagonists use either Martial Arts/Sword/Gun. Cause most other kinds of weapons are used for secondary characters.

 

[Zinith]

You start to see characters not just as characters but also as *shudders* functions.

One man's Magneto is another man's Nova

 

[Will]

So, Byleth is an anime swordsman that... isn't a swordsman?

Now we know: Byleth literally is anime incarnate.

 

[Shroob]

Now we know: Byleth literally is anime incarnate.

Spoiler: 3 Houses Spoilers

Well ****, does this mean they have the power of god and anime on their side?

 

[SKX31]

Now we know: Byleth literally is anime incarnate.

Spoiler: 3 Houses Spoilers

Well ****, does this mean they have the power of god and anime on their side?

Well, I'm not so sure. There are more than one ways to be anime incarnate. For instance:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

(Belated edit: Not intended as a jab towards anime as a medium - I'm just personally tired of the harem cliché, especially since it's overplayed and some such shows go to really weird extents.)

In terms of pure gameplay, some of Corrin's uniqueness got lost in Ultimate. His DFS and Dragon Lunge are still flashy and stand out amongst the swordsmen, but they were both nerfed so he gets to use them a lot less.

His F-Smash is still really unique. Its crazy range doesn't stand out as much as it used to thanks to Simon and Byleth but he'll still always have that charging hitbox at point blank. But at the end of the day he's still a character who relies mostly on mid-range disjoints. He's in the same archetype as Marth, just with a flashy twist.

But hey, I'm a crazy person who thinks Ivysaur almost fits in the Marth archetype but Roy doesn't. This is what happens when you dive too deep into character theory and the CCI. You start to see characters not just as characters but also as *shudders* functions.

I can see Ivy kinda being similar to Marth playstyle-wise - I'm not so sure I agree on that when Ivy's Up and Down-airs are either combo-extenders or finishers, and Ivy has more tools against opponents diagonally above it. At least those vines don't do 4 % on a Back-air nowadays as they did in Brawl.

Also, the functions debacle... yikes.

 

[XorahnGaia]

So this is the SG article teased by PushDustIn some days ago:
https://sourcegaming.info/2020/05/16/ultimate-timeline/
It's nothing special, but it's nice to have a clear timeline of Ultimate's development.

 

[Garteam]

It's kind of a 50/50 split between the characters who carve their own niche within the roster

And those that are textbook swordfighters (with slight deviance) and/or are clones of other characters.

It doesn't help that they're also aesthetically similar due to hailing from the same series and in some cases, are different takes on a preexisting character.

Byleth's only attacks with a sword are rapid jab, his tilts, up smash, up air, and up special. Corrin's meanwhile are jab 2 and 3, his tilts, dash attack, half of down smash, half of n-air, f-air, up air. That's not much more than Link or Hero, so why are Byleth and Corrin textbook swordfighters but Link and Hero are all good?

 

[Dark Bagel]

I still stand by that in terms of gameplay, Roy actually plays the least like Marth of all the Fire Emblem characters. I will die on this hill.
View attachment 271899
Come and get me, filthy casuals.

I always thought (at least in Ultimate) that Roy was the Leroy Jenkins to Marth's Mr. PokeAndSpaceAtAReasonableDistance, and that people more or less universally agreed on that playstyle disparity, even amongst more casual players.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don’t really get how the idea of “textbook sword fighter” can apply to a character that is more of a “weapons master”. Byleth uses 4 different weapons in the moveset, whereas I would think the idea of a “textbook” sword fighter would be the definition of a sword fighter- not a guy that uses four different weapons.

Marth was the first pure sword fighter in the roster, regardless of tipper mechanic.

I think it’s hard to categorize fighters in such a way, because they’re largely based on...themselves, and the game they come from. Link isn’t your ordinary sword fighter, because he’s Link. Your average sword fighter doesn’t bring bombs and a bow and arrow to the fight...although now we have 3 fighters who do that...oof.

Either way, Ike is best lord.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Byleth's only attacks with a sword are rapid jab, his tilts, up smash, up air, and up special. Corrin's meanwhile are jab 2 and 3, his tilts, dash attack, half of down smash, half of n-air, f-air, up air. That's not much more than Link or Hero, so why are Byleth and Corrin textbook swordfighters but Link and Hero are all good?

I don’t really get how the idea of “textbook sword fighter” can apply to a character that is more of a “weapons master”.

I was using their playstyles as a metric. Not how many sword attacks they have (to do so would be to imply that you have to have non-sword attacks to truly be unique. You don't.). The only sword quality that mattered was if they used one as a primary weapon since those were the characters I was looking at.

I'm not saying these characters are bad, boring, or exactly the same either, just that at a surface level, those are the ones that blend together the most (or are another Link. Also I'm not counting Marth because he's the original).

Personally, I like way more of the more traditional and clone swordfighters than the unique ones. I do think a lot of them have missed opportunities in their movesets like how Byleth is a response to the people who are tired of Fire Emblem swordfighters rather than focusing on the unique aspects of his Sword of the Creator, time powers, and role as a tactician (he could have had a really cool adjunct system), and the other Links have loads of things they could do that isn't what Link prime already does, but I do think they're all pretty fun characters. Except Toon Link. He's pretty meh.

Side Note: I still can't grasp Meta Knight's playstyle. I keep trying to treat him like a sword Jiggs, but that's really not what he is, and I can never really get in the groove with him.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think the idea of sword fighting is relatively unnecessary.

Close ranged, medium ranged, long range characters.
Melee weapons, various close combat techniques... it's all just words and visuals.

That said, I am in the camp of wanting more magic themed characters.
For such a prominent video game and fantasy trope, there never seems to be enough.

Then again, most characters are a blend of everything above.
Mario could be considered a magic user.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Mario could be considered a magic user.

I wouldn't exactly consider him to be a mage though...

It's interesting how many characters and items that have magical properties that aren't really treated as being magical. Like, there are characters that practice magic in the Super Mario series like Kamek and the Koopalings, but despite the main cast also having similar abilities, they aren't also seen as magic. Same with the Kirby and Pokémon series (though the latter may just be treating magic as a science to the point where they don't even call it magic most of the time).

 

[pupNapoleon]

I wouldn't exactly consider him to be a mage though...

It's interesting how many characters and items that have magical properties that aren't really treated as being magical. Like, there are characters that practice magic in the Super Mario series like Kamek and the Koopalings, but despite the main cast also having similar abilities, they aren't also seen as magic. Same with the Kirby and Pokémon series (though the latter may just be treating magic as a science to the point where they don't even call it magic most of the time).

Sorry... I wanted to read all of this (and truly, I actually did)
but I kept getting distracted with the fact that we don't have a fairy-like character in a game with over 80 characters.

It's why I want Lip.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Where is all this Lip discussion suddenly coming from?

Haven't really caught up in this thread since the last few days.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Where is all this Lip discussion suddenly coming from?

Haven't really caught up in this thread since the last few days.

Panel de Pon is finally getting an international release, as it is one of three games just announced for SNES/NES online.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Panel de Pon is finally getting an international release, as it is one of three games just announced for SNES/NES online.

Well doesn't exactly by any means she might be an lock otherwise...

But then again given how every discussion has been discussed I can see why people were speculating.