Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[chocolatejr9]

If there is one assist trophy upgrade that happens Sukurai will want to shut up Waluigi fans first.

Are you sure about that? Apparently, Waluigi doesn't even exist as far as Japan's concerned. Or at the very least, he's not as popular. I never know with this type of language...

 

[PeridotGX]

Well, there are several characters in the game as ATs or Spirits that I think should be upgraded to Echoes, but I'm not going to waste FP slots on them. So...

Kunio/Riki [River City Ransom]
Zero [Mega Man]
Raiden [Metal Gear]
Alucard [Castlevania]
Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
King Hippo [Punch-Out]

how do any of these characters work as echoes (other than Raiden, I guess)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Why did you expect two mario reps and a gen 8 pokemon, they're not joining the FP2 to me.

The former both have merit as fan requests, and Geno and Waluigi are very different from each other with the former being a stoic magical marionette...doll...thing, and the latter being a wacky, over the top, villain version of Luigi. The Pokémon from generation 8 is just a plausible outcome.

If there is one assist trophy upgrade that happens Sukurai will want to shut up Waluigi fans first.

I don't think he has the mentality of giving fans characters to "shut them up".

Uh Oh, Stinky

Reimu Hakurei

She just accidentally set the fragrance to rotten eggs over night just before she got invited to Smash. Give her a break!

Jokes aside though, Reimu isn't a character that the Smash community actively doesn't want, nor does she have the same feel as a type of character they're getting tired of on principle. Now, she'll definitely attract hate as all projectile zoners do, but I don't think her presence alone would cause a blowup of negativity.

First of all i'm in the camp that say a Gen 8 Pokemon is a given for Fighters pass volume 2,Second of all Geno is a Square rep not a Mario Rep.

SquareEnix is he company that owns him, not his home series. He's still a Super Mario character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

how do any of these characters work as echoes (other than Raiden, I guess)

No, those are the ones that WOULDN'T be echoes.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Raiden as an Echo Fighter is a weird pitch. I mean, he would work just fine, but why add the version of the character everyone hated instead of the one people loved? I wouldn't even say that it's better than nothing since what made the character appealing wouldn't appear at all.

 

[PeridotGX]

No, those are the ones that WOULDN'T be echoes.

Ah, that makes more sence.

 

[Koopaul]

Apparently, Waluigi doesn't even exist as far as Japan's concerned. Or at the very least, he's not as popular.

Says who? Where did you hear this?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Says who? Where did you hear this?

I don't remember the name, but it was a video explaining the outcry from Waluigi's Assist Trophy. I don't remember the exact quote, but the guy in the video said something along the lunes of "Keep in mind, Waluigi is predominently popular in the U.S.. Japan doesn't get it. Sakurai doesn't get it." I might need to find the video though.

 

[PeridotGX]

First of all i'm in the camp that say a Gen 8 Pokemon is a given for Fighters pass volume 2,Second of all Geno is a Square rep not a Mario Rep.

We abandoned Ring Fit, Resident Evil, and Astral Chain pretty much immediately after the spirit event, why do people think Pokemon gets to be the exeption? This comes from a Pokemon fan who would like to see a Gen 8 Pokemon if it's not Rillaboom.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We abandoned Ring Fit, Resident Evil, and Astral Chain pretty much immediately after the spirit event, why do people think Pokemon gets to be the exeption? This comes from a Pokemon fan who would like to see a Gen 8 Pokemon if it's not Rillaboom.

All of those got the only plausible characters as Spirit Events.

Pokemon has significantly more options than just the few Spirits we got.

They're not in the same situation here.

 

[SNEKeater]

I'm really looking forward to playing Royal too!

If I manage to pick It soon It will be my first Persona game besides the demo for Strikers. And I'm quite excited about It since everywhere I go I see people talking about how good the game is!

The addition of an official spanish translation to the new version is also a really welcomed plus!

Yeah, Persona being localised for the first time in languages beyond english and japanese is a big step for the franchise. It would be nice if Scramble gets the same treatment as well.

Raiden as an Echo Fighter is a weird pitch. I mean, he would work just fine, but why add the version of the character everyone hated instead of the one people loved? I wouldn't even say that it's better than nothing since what made the character appealing wouldn't appear at all.

Not everyone hated MGS2 Raiden. Also, MGS2 wouldn't work without him.

 

[♕Pretty Roger♕]

To this day i am still surprised a lot of people thought Waluigi ”had” to be in because Daisy was in when in Japan Daisy is WAY more popular and she was quite requested (another instance where Japan has better taste thankfully, plus she was easier to implement)

 

[Cosmic77]

We abandoned Ring Fit, Resident Evil, and Astral Chain pretty much immediately after the spirit event, why do people think Pokemon gets to be the exeption? This comes from a Pokemon fan who would like to see a Gen 8 Pokemon if it's not Rillaboom.

All of those got the only plausible characters as Spirit Events.

Pokemon has significantly more options than just the few Spirits we got.

They're not in the same situation here.

You also have to consider how long this DLC is supposed to take. We got SwSh Spirits in late 2019, and the DLC could go until late 2021 (possibly longer if Corona causes any delays).

 

[Michael the Spikester]

One reason Pokemon is an exception is given its amount of characters. The Spirit Event we got were just for an few and not each one.

Toxtricity? Urshifu? Final forms of Gen 8 Starters?

Still on the table.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

One reason Pokemon is an exception is given its amount of characters. The Spirit Event we got were just for an few and not each one.

Toxtricity? Urshifu? Final forms of Gen 8 Starters?

Still on the table.

Lol no Pokemon's always gotten the special treatment because Pokemon's a franchise where the weakest installments sell like 6 million

 

[7NATOR]

You also have to consider how long this DLC is supposed to take. We got SwSh Spirits in late 2019, and the DLC could go until late 2021 (possibly longer if Corona causes any delays).

To Play Devil's Advocate, i will say that

1. It's not like Every single Gen 8 Pokemon will be added in a Spirit Event. Like with alot of Spirit events, some characters are left out.

2. While the DLC could go to late 2021, the fact the Spirits came around the time the FP2 roster was being finalized says something

I think it's intent here with timing and stuff. It's kind of how people disregard DLC Mii Costumes as potential characters cause of the time they added them and what they are supposed to represent. even if not all Gen 8 Pokemon were represented, the fact they went out of their way to Give them a Spirit event around the time Of Finalizing the FP2 roster could be their way of saying this is the Pokemon content we gonna get. Of course This is just speculation

 

[pupNapoleon]

We'll have to wait and see what characters are in the game. There's a good chance the non-Hylian species will return, so hopefully we'll get some Zora, Rito, and Goron characters that have a decent role in the game.

If only there were a way (without the Young Link revamp) to actually get all these other species.
ToZ is not represented well in smash without all these middle earth style characters... truly we are lacking the variety of other species.
I mean- we don't even have the four champions as Assist Trophies!

I know we throw around that Sakurai gets biased... but its hard to overlook this with Nintendo's flagship storytelling series.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Lol no Pokemon's always gotten the special treatment because Pokemon's a franchise where the weakest installments sell like 6 million

Even without that given the vast variable types of Pokemon it'd be an exception. Isn't there like currently over 600 Pokemon?

 

[Trevenant]

A reminder that Base or DLC never ends on an good note. I suspect 81 will be an character that doesn't contain too much hype.

But you are predicting goose right? Goose would probably be a pretty funny reveal which would probably distort itself into hype. Anyhow just a thing to add with goose is that if the only real reason people are considering him is because of ssurprise factor, one thing to keep in mind is that surprise characters are literally always third party and with good reason to be too. First party characters just don't have as many hurdles where as a third party surprise pick would just be peculiar in so many more ways than one. Part of me thinks the recent influx of Goose predictions is solely based on BrawlFan1's fairly ambitious moveset.

 

[Cosmic77]

If only there were a way (without the Young Link revamp) to actually get all these other species.
ToZ is not represented well in smash without all these middle earth style characters... truly we are lacking the variety of other species.
I mean- we don't even have the four champions as Assist Trophies!

I know we throw around that Sakurai gets bias... but its hard to overlook this with Nintendo's flagship storytelling series.

If Sakurai would've added just one Champion, it would've been easier to imagine other species from future games getting in Smash.

The longer we go sticking to Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, the harder it will be for both Sakurai and the fans to envision anyone who isn't one of those three getting in. That's why he really needs to bite the bullet and take a chance like he did with Super Mario. Back in early 2013, a lot of people were convinced we wouldn't get any more Mario characters because we already had the main four. It wasn't until Rosalina got in before people started to realize Daisy, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., and other Mario characters had a better chance than they thought.

 

[pupNapoleon]

We abandoned Ring Fit, Resident Evil, and Astral Chain pretty much immediately after the spirit event, why do people think Pokemon gets to be the exeption? This comes from a Pokemon fan who would like to see a Gen 8 Pokemon if it's not Rillaboom.

I don't think Resident Evil is abandoned- who really cares what 'we as a collective, a collective who is generally incorrect' think?

As for Pokemon... it's still, and for the first time ever, getting DLC through the year. Great time to introduce MORE Pokemon (which, we just saw happen), and thusly, continue to promote (alongside the worldwide release of the new anime series as well).

There is always a reason to promote Pokemon. It's the top selling MEDIA franchise of all time, above anything Disney.

But you are predicting goose right? Goose would probably be a pretty funny reveal which would probably distort itself into hype. Anyhow just a thing to add with goose is that if the only real reason people are considering him is because of ssurprise factor, one thing to keep in mind is that surprise characters are literally always third party and with good reason to be too. First party characters just don't have as many hurdles where as a third party surprise pick would just be peculiar in so many more ways than one. Part of me thinks the recent influx of Goose predictions is solely based on BrawlFan1's fairly ambitious moveset.

I cannot compute what youre saying.
We have had surprise picks since the beginning, and they surely were not all third party.

Jigglypuff. Game and Watch. ROB. Wii Fit Trainer. Piranha Plant.

Who as a third party even qualifies as what the community OR Sakurai has called a surprise character?

 

[SmashChu]

As Mr. Robotto said, not being a popular name in the Smash community doesn't mean a character isn't popular. I assume that when you're talking about Terry not being popular, you're talking from the Smash community viewpoint before his inclusion, because if that's not the case, well, I don't think discussing this will lead us nowhere.

This was all in context of the Smash Ballot so I'm talking about popularity among Smash fans. That said, keep in mind these things are not mutually exclusive. Characters that are more well known will have some push for Smash. Terry not having that is also indicative that he's not popular in the greater scheme of things, though I'll get to that in a minute.

It's not revision mentality. I didn't said Terry was a popular request among Smash fans before he was added, but it isn't revisionism to say he was popular outside Smash or that his games were influential, because that's just the truth, unless someone believes that the only existing game in the world is Smash Bros.
Also, it's just people learning things. People who didn't know about him before being revealed didn't know the extent of SNK's legacy, now they are aware, and therefore, you read more people talking about Terry and SNK in this community now that he's in. That's it. You may feel people has been hypocrite and acting like they knew Terry since always or that they were aware of SNK merits, but it's not weird if you think that Terry's inclusion attracted a lot of curious people to learn more about him and his games., and that will generate more discussions and talk about SNK.

If FP7 was, idk, Lara Croft or Crash Bandicoot, their inclusion will draw more eyes to their games even if they're known by all Smash fans, because knowing a game doesn't mean you have actually played it. So, Lara getting in would make more Smash players try the Tomb Raider series, and then they would start talking more about it. Just like happened with Joker, with Hero, with Banjo, with Terry, and yes, even Byleth. And it will happen again if we get Crash, Ryu Hayabusa, Dante, or Professor Layton, to mention a few names.

Honestly, I feel that most of times people uses the "revisionism" thing as an excuse of some sort.

If people had to be reminded of a company's legacy then they don't have a legacy in the way we're using the term. If SNK was forgotten, then it didn't have an impact on gaming for most people. SNK's fighting game prowess was a product of the time. They rode the wave of Fighting Games created by Street Fighter (this is why Sakurai had to defend the series as not being a Street Fighter clone, which he's correct on but misses the point of why people say that). Once the ride ended, so did SNK. Other fighting games were able to carve out a legacy for themselves, like Tekken, Soul Caliber, the VS games, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter for a while ect. But Fatal Fury died with the end of the 90s fighting game craze. Basically, Fatal Fury didn't leave a mark on gaming. This is why King of Fighters is a niche series despite having 14 titles and why people responded with "who" when seeing Terry. The reason you see people talking about him now is because he's in Smash and every character gets that treatment.

The reason I say people are being revisionist is because they are putting SNK on a pedestal they wouldn't be on if Terry wasn't in Smash. If he were never added to Smash, the discussion would be "Of course they wouldn't add an SNK character. They're irrelevant and Fatal Fury was in the shadows of Street Fighter". These are all true statements but it gets twisted because Terry is in Smash and because he's in Smash, it must be because he's super duper important to gaming.

A character can be added to Smash for reasons other than they're important to gaming or are super popular. Sakurai probably added him because he likes Fatal Fury and fighting games. You can see that in how he talks about it. It's fine if a character gets added to Smash that is niche. They don't have to become the most important character of all time and that be the reason for their inclusion. I think people do this because they need to feel like characters get in for being important (and so they can use that as a line of argument when discussing characters).

 

[Trevenant]

I don't think Resident Evil is abandoned- who really cares what 'we as a collective, a collective who is generally incorrect' think?

As for Pokemon... it's still, and for the first time ever, getting DLC through the year. Great time to introduce MORE Pokemon (which, we just saw happen), and thusly, continue to promote (alongside the worldwide release of the new anime series as well).

There is always a reason to promote Pokemon. It's the top selling MEDIA franchise of all time, above anything Disney.



I cannot compute what youre saying.
We have had surprise picks since the beginning, and they surely were not all third party.

Jigglypuff. Game and Watch. ROB. Wii Fit Trainer. Piranha Plant.

Who as a third party even qualifies as what the community OR Sakurai has called a surprise character?

No I was just saying that characters who were confusing on the level you listed are never third party. Like picking cacodemon to represent doom instead of Doom Slayer but not the shock value of Cloud or Sonic

 

[Cosmic77]

To Play Devil's Advocate, i will say that

1. It's not like Every single Gen 8 Pokemon will be added in a Spirit Event. Like with alot of Spirit events, some characters are left out.

2. While the DLC could go to late 2021, the fact the Spirits came around the time the FP2 roster was being finalized says something

I think it's intent here with timing and stuff. It's kind of how people disregard DLC Mii Costumes as potential characters cause of the time they added them and what they are supposed to represent. even if not all Gen 8 Pokemon were represented, the fact they went out of their way to Give them a Spirit event around the time Of Finalizing the FP2 roster could be their way of saying this is the Pokemon content we gonna get. Of course This is just speculation

Keep in mind that Spirits take significantly less time to make than trophies, Mii costumes, and most of the other stuff they could've added.

Since Let's Go got Spirits and 3H's missing Spirits ultimately led to a newcomer, they may have thought four Spirits was worth the trouble. After all, SwSh was Nintendo's biggest release for 2019. How many more people would've thought a SwSh Pokemon was a lock if there weren't any Spirits and Byleth got added?

 

[pupNapoleon]

This was all in context of the Smash Ballot so I'm talking about popularity among Smash fans. That said, keep in mind these things are not mutually exclusive. Characters that are more well known will have some push for Smash. Terry not having that is also indicative that he's not popular in the greater scheme of things, though I'll get to that in a minute.

If people had to be reminded of a company's legacy then they don't have a legacy in the way we're using the term. If SNK was forgotten, then it didn't have an impact on gaming for most people. SNK's fighting game prowess was a product of the time. They rode the wave of Fighting Games created by Street Fighter (this is why Sakurai had to defend the series as not being a Street Fighter clone, which he's correct on but misses the point of why people say that). Once the ride ended, so did SNK. Other fighting games were able to carve out a legacy for themselves, like Tekken, Soul Caliber, the VS games, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter for a while ect. But Fatal Fury died with the end of the 90s fighting game craze. Basically, Fatal Fury didn't leave a mark on gaming. This is why King of Fighters is a niche series despite having 14 titles and why people responded with "who" when seeing Terry. The reason you see people talking about him now is because he's in Smash and every character gets that treatment.

The reason I say people are being revisionist is because they are putting SNK on a pedestal they wouldn't be on if Terry wasn't in Smash. If he were never added to Smash, the discussion would be "Of course they wouldn't add an SNK character. They're irrelevant and Fatal Fury was in the shadows of Street Fighter". These are all true statements but it gets twisted because Terry is in Smash and because he's in Smash, it must be because he's super duper important to gaming.

A character can be added to Smash for reasons other than they're important to gaming or are super popular. Sakurai probably added him because he likes Fatal Fury and fighting games. You can see that in how he talks about it. It's fine if a character gets added to Smash that is niche. They don't have to become the most important character of all time and that be the reason for their inclusion. I think people do this because they need to feel like characters get in for being important (and so they can use that as a line of argument when discussing characters).

Perhaps there is validity in parts of what youre saying... but something neednt be known by name for it's legacy to be known.
You may call it 'revisionist' (the new favorite word of the forum I suppose... like 'relevant' in place of recency for Sm4sh); but something can make an impact even if it isnt known to everyone.

I'm sure you cannot recite to me the history of computers as we know them today (or maybe you can, in which case, pick another field). That doesnt mean you don't use a computer every day. It doesnt mean that which influenced the course of history isnt historic.

Simply enough... if Fatal Fury impacted Sakurai... and inspired Smash... which inspired (well, all of us wasting our time here), then how is it not clear that the legacy stands?

From a personal standpoint, I did not know much of SNK. The reveal trailer immediately rectified that. I suddenly understood that a part of gaming that I barely knew I could comprehend, and actually had a lot of nostalgia for prior to my knowledge of it intricately, was suddenly being added to Smash.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

First of all i'm in the camp that say a Gen 8 Pokemon is a given for Fighters pass volume 2,Second of all Geno is a Square rep not a Mario Rep.

The Geno Spirits says its from the Mario series though, so Geno being added would be counted as a Mario rep with whatever music that would come with him being added to the Mario stage tracks and his stage would have very Mario track already in the game though simliar to Byleith.

 

[7NATOR]

Keep in mind that Spirits take significantly less time to make than trophies, Mii costumes, and most of the other stuff they could've added.

Since Let's Go got Spirits and 3H's missing Spirits ultimately led to a newcomer, they may have thought four Spirits was worth the trouble. After all, SwSh was Nintendo's biggest release for 2019. How many more people would've thought a SwSh Pokemon was a lock if there weren't any Spirits and Byleth got added?

I guess you do make a point. They could be playing chess by adding those spirits, which would make people think we not getting new Pokemon. Might be too obvious if we had no new Pokemon Spirits. I don't know though. Personally for me i don't think we getting Gen 8 Pokemon

 

[Koopaul]

I don't remember the name, but it was a video explaining the outcry from Waluigi's Assist Trophy. I don't remember the exact quote, but the guy in the video said something along the lunes of "Keep in mind, Waluigi is predominently popular in the U.S.. Japan doesn't get it. Sakurai doesn't get it." I might need to find the video though.

That doesn't seem to be a very reliable source. Also people tend to conflate fan requests with general character popularity. There are lots of characters that people enjoy but don't rally for them to be in Smash. If we don't see a lot of rallying for Waluigi in Japan, that doesn't mean Japan doesn't like Waluigi. That just means they just don't care if he's in Smash.

I think it goes without saying that Western fanbases are a lot more... insane than Japan. We scream and cry over characters getting in or not getting into Smash. We send death threats to people. We're nuts. And because we don't see the same insanity in Japan we assume "well I guess they don't like Waluigi".

 

[pupNapoleon]

I guess you do make a point. They could be playing chess by adding those spirits, which would make people think we not getting new Pokemon. Might be too obvious if we had no new Pokemon Spirits. I don't know though. Personally for me i don't think we getting Gen 8 Pokemon

We know that no Gen 8 Pokemon was in the first fighters pass.

What was the alternative for Nintendo?
Decide to not add spirits for another 9-27 months after Pokemon Sword and Shield released?

I honestly cannot imagine a timeline where that would have been plausible.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Even without that given the vast variable types of Pokemon it'd be an exception. Isn't there like currently over 600 Pokemon?

There are currently 895 Pokémon. Even if we were to only go with the popular ones, and ignore the human characters until the end of time, there are still a ton of Pokémon characters that could be added to the game without reaching for more niche picks within the franchise.

To be honest, I think that if you can make sure each sure each series in Super Smash Bros. is steadily getting the characters it deserves (I.E. any series with popular characters left unadded that could bring something new and fun to the game), then Pokémon should be allowed to have more characters than any of the other series by a modest margin. Like, 15-16 to the Super Mario series's 10-12. The one caveat that I'll make to this though, is that each Pokémon that they pick should bring a new and interesting idea to the table. An outsider shouldn't be able to look at the character and say, "Ok, but I wanted a wrestler that I actually like" or "Ok, but I wanted a ninja that I actually like" (not saying that Greninja didn't earn its keep though).

So what I'm saying is: More bugs with scissor hands and land sharks mixed with fighter jets, and less normal game archetypes as Pokémon.

 

[7NATOR]

We know that no Gen 8 Pokemon was in the first fighters pass.

What was the alternative for Nintendo?
Decide to not add spirits for another 9-27 months after Pokemon Sword and Shield released?

I honestly cannot imagine a timeline where that would have been plausible.

I mean they didn't add 3 houses spirits when that game came out, so it could have be possiblity

 

[SKX31]

I think it goes without saying that Western fanbases are a lot more... insane than Japan. We scream and cry over characters getting in or not getting into Smash. We send death threats to people. We're nuts. And because we don't see the same insanity in Japan we assume "well I guess they don't like Waluigi".

Counterargument: I'm presuming the Japanese hardcore fans are similarily insane, it's just a language barrier that hides things. I don't speak a lick of Russian for example - but I've been in enough Dota 2 games that when things go bad, you can expect "cyka blyat" to come out (because Dota 2 and CS:GO might as well be Russia's national video games). Just as "ur mom" often comes out when things go bad in a CoD game.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I mean they didn't add 3 houses spirits when that game came out, so it could have be possiblity

Yes, because they had a character lined up in fighter pass one, a couple of months later.
Even removing the differences in Fire Emblem and Pokemon (which are vast, again, Pokemon is the biggest Media franchise of all time, outpacing any movie series, like the MCU)- so it's not at all the same thing.

 

[7NATOR]

Yes, because they had a character lined up in fighter pass one, a couple of months later.
Even removing the differences in Fire Emblem and Pokemon (which are vast, again, Pokemon is the biggest Media franchise of all time, outpacing any movie series, like the MCU)- so it's not at all the same thing.

Couple of months? 3 Houses released in July of 2019. we didn't get a character till January. that's 5-6 Months. They are willing to wait.

 

[Cosmic77]

Couple of months? 3 Houses released in July of 2019. we didn't get a character till January. that's 5-6 Months. They are willing to wait.

That's still not very long. Even if the SwSh Pokemon was the very next fighter and released alongside ARMS, that's already seven months after release (though a more realistic prediction is that F7 would be released somewhere between July and September).

Personally though, I'm not expecting a Pokemon character until late 2020 or 2021, so F8 onward. I have a feeling Crowned Tundra will be released before the character.

 

[Gribbo]

If there is one assist trophy upgrade that happens Sukurai will want to shut up Waluigi fans first.

To be fair, if you went back to the Melee days and asked people who the first non-Nintendo character to get in would be, I doubt many people would say Snake.

 

[Proceleon]

Speaking of Sprit Events and the like, has there been any news on what the next Spirit Event after Mana will be?

 

[andree123]

Speaking of Sprit Events and the like, has there been any news on what the next Spirit Event after Mana will be?

We knew that, it was about the spirits with thicc eyebrows.

 

[Deleted member]

We knew that, it was about the spirits with thicc eyebrows.

Missed opportunity to add Angry Birds spirits.

The characters in those games have really big eyebrows.

 

[Mamboo07]

If only there were a way (without the Young Link revamp) to actually get all these other species.
ToZ is not represented well in smash without all these middle earth style characters... truly we are lacking the variety of other species.
I mean- we don't even have the four champions as Assist Trophies!

I know we throw around that Sakurai gets biased... but its hard to overlook this with Nintendo's flagship storytelling series.

Same with Kirby who can't even get Bandana Dee himself in Smash or more representation from the modern games...