Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Proceleon]

We knew that, it was about the spirits with thicc eyebrows.

I mean new Spirits, not just reusing old ones.

 

[Icedragonadam]

From what I seen, Japanese fans seems to be a lot more mature and more accepting of characters being disconfirmed instead of clinging on to false hope. I mean look at the reaction difference to Byleth for one thing.

 

[Koopaul]

Because I think it wouldn't be wise to go into speciffic threads just to point out why I highly doubt their character of choice will be in Fighters Pass 2, I decided to explain in general how I feel about fighter inclusion.

I don't think being a highly requested character is good enough on it's own. I don't think being a new Nintendo IP is good enough on it's own. I don't think being a 3rd party in good relationship with Nintendo is good enoughon it's own. I don't think being a video game icon is good enough on it's own.

There is no one argument for your requested character that is good enough all by itself. There needs to be multiple factors as to why a character would be added as DLC. The Fighters Pass is by and large a business decision from multiple angles. Especially when 3rd parties are involved. Nintendo is picking the fighters. Not Sakurai. You need to consider everything. Throw out all your biases and think like a suit at a Nintendo meeting.

FAN POLLS
If you think X character is likely because they did well on fan polls... Well sorry but that's not a good enough reason. Fan polls are unreliable and don't account for a large portion of the population. Fan polls shift like the wind. "What's that? Doom is on the Switch?" Polls are now bombarded with Doom Slayer requests. Then another turn of events occur and now another character is highly requested. It's too sparatic and always shifting. Nintendo is not constantly shifting with us.

3RD PARTY RELATIONS
"Rayman HAS to be a fighter because Ubisoft is on such good terms with Nintendo" I hear this argument a lot. We have NO IDEA what's going on behind those doors. No idea what business decisions Nintendo is making and for what reasons. Very few people have considered that maybe Nintendo doesn't care to add DLC of a character from a company they're on good terms with. It might be the exact opposite. The DLC might be a way to try and strengthen new relationship and even as a means to get that company to put more of their games on their system! Even this idea is merely speculation. We don't know. All I know is that being a hit 3rd party game on Nintendo consoles doesn't mean too much since we got freaking Cloud and Joker. Clearly there are other factors.

BEING A GAMING ICON
There are tons of "gaming icons". But we only have 5 more fighters left. You need to ask yourself: Is Joker a gaming icon? I guess, maybe? Banjo? Terry? The Dragon Quest series is iconic but the DLC is promoting Dragon Quest 11 on the Switch first and foremost. Maybe, just maybe, being a gaming icon is not that important when deciding DLC. I'm sure it's a factor. But just one factor. It doesn't carry too much weight on it's own, there needs to be another motive.

This is how I see it. I hate to burst people's bubbles but acting so confidently that a certain character will be DLC is only going to lead to heartbreak. We need to be incredibly skeptical and look at things from all angles.

 

[SNEKeater]

This was all in context of the Smash Ballot so I'm talking about popularity among Smash fans. That said, keep in mind these things are not mutually exclusive. Characters that are more well known will have some push for Smash. Terry not having that is also indicative that he's not popular in the greater scheme of things, though I'll get to that in a minute.

About your first point, that's fine then. I never meant that Terry was a super popular request among Smash fans, because he obviously wasn't.

But about the rest, I don't really agree. I mean, I see what you mean with that, but that doesn't seem like a good way to judge popularity. Characters such as Master Chief, Dante or Crash Bandicoot weren't really considered 5 years ago, they were more talked than Terry? Yeah, sure, but they weren't perceived as candidates for different reasons. That means they aren't really that popular? I doubt it.

If people had to be reminded of a company's legacy then they don't have a legacy in the way we're using the term. If SNK was forgotten, then it didn't have an impact on gaming for most people. SNK's fighting game prowess was a product of the time. They rode the wave of Fighting Games created by Street Fighter (this is why Sakurai had to defend the series as not being a Street Fighter clone, which he's correct on but misses the point of why people say that). Once the ride ended, so did SNK. Other fighting games were able to carve out a legacy for themselves, like Tekken, Soul Caliber, the VS games, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter for a while ect. But Fatal Fury died with the end of the 90s fighting game craze. Basically, Fatal Fury didn't leave a mark on gaming. This is why King of Fighters is a niche series despite having 14 titles and why people responded with "who" when seeing Terry. The reason you see people talking about him now is because he's in Smash and every character gets that treatment.

I don't think you're being really fair with all of this. Fighting games aren't the most mainstream games to begin with, and SNK maybe didn't reached certain big places such as USA as they would like back then. That doesn't help at all.
Then, they were in bankrupt, which evidently isn't good for them and their presence in the industry. You put all these things together and that's some serious damage.

SNK main focus were fighting games, so naturally if fighting games lost their momentum that won't be good news for SNK. I don't see anything strange with that.

Those series did indeed carve out a legacy for themselves... but it's not like Fatal Fury and specially KoF weren't able to do the same. As far as I understand you're saying that popularity is strongly tied to the meaning of legacy, which I partially agree with, but then you're throwing names such as Guilty Gear or Virtua Fighter there. Those franchises indeed had legacy, don't mistake me. I mean, my profile pic is Millia Rage from Guilty Gear. But I strongly doubt Guilty Gear or even Virtua Fighter games are more popular than King of Fighters.
People would have said "who" as well if instead of Terry they had added Sol Badguy or Akira Yuki, and you know it.

As I said in previous messages, I don't really think the Smash community, or at least a good portion of it, it's a good barometer for testing who's popular and who's not. You can be a popular character and that doesn't mean you have to be known everywhere, and if we keep in mind all what I have said before (SNK's bankruptcy, fighting games being less popular, USA not being the strongest market for SNK), plus the fact that you have a lot of young people playing Smash nowadays and that the best momentum of Terry Bogard and his games weren't precisely the last few years, that gives you what we had.
Also, is not really a surprise for anyone that the Smash community doesn't really overlap that much with the FGC community. Saying otherwise isn't really accurate.
This somewhat reminds me of Dragon Quest situation, it isn't super popular everywhere, but that doesn't mean it has no legacy.

Being in Smash draws eyes to you, that's obvious and I already stated that in my previous post. But as I also said, Smash Bros isn't the only existing game in the world. If that was the case, then I'd agree with you about people talking about Terry only after his inclusion, but luckily this industry has a lot more to offer than Smash.

The reason I say people are being revisionist is because they are putting SNK on a pedestal they wouldn't be on if Terry wasn't in Smash. If he were never added to Smash, the discussion would be "Of course they wouldn't add an SNK character. They're irrelevant and Fatal Fury was in the shadows of Street Fighter". These are all true statements but it gets twisted because Terry is in Smash and because he's in Smash, it must be because he's super duper important to gaming.

I get that, and while for sure you have the usual person who goes from "who's this" to "this character is the most important one in gaming" in 5 seconds, that happens with every character. Some people didn't heard about Persona until Joker happened, and now some of them are diehard fans and praise the series. Some people dismissed Dragon Quest, then Hero happened and now more people are getting into the series and realizing that the series was really important to JRPGs.

People can be wrong and then change their opinions. Yeah, most of people never thought that an SNK character was possible until it happened, I never thought about that. But I also never thought about Persona in Smash, it just never crossed my mind, and I think we all can agree that the Persona series is being pretty popular the last years.
People can learn as well. Maybe Smash fans never said "SNK was an important developer, a character from them would make sense", that's true, but SNK not being considered doesn't mean that now we're living in a revisionism phase. People is constantly learning new things, and you could put it like Smash players are being revisionists, but you can also describe it as the fact that people are realizing and learning about SNK's history and importance in gaming.

In the end, I don't know who's really twisting this. Granted, any character who gets in Smash will get some extra love, I won't discuss that, but no one's saying Terry's was the most relevant character for gaming. Banjo is more popular within this community than Terry, and in the grand scheme of things B&K isn't really bigger than him by any means. That means Banjo and his games are being glorified because he was added to Smash, and that he never was really that popular?
I never considered Banjo & Kazooie to be as popular in the general landscape of gaming as some said, but I'd never deny his popularity, for example.

A character can be added to Smash for reasons other than they're important to gaming or are super popular. Sakurai probably added him because he likes Fatal Fury and fighting games. You can see that in how he talks about it. It's fine if a character gets added to Smash that is niche. They don't have to become the most important character of all time and that be the reason for their inclusion. I think people do this because they need to feel like characters get in for being important (and so they can use that as a line of argument when discussing characters).

I agree with you there. A character can be added for different or multiple reasons beyond popularity. If everything was about just popularity, we would have a Fortnite character.
And while people can sometimes exaggerate or twist certain things to justify an inclusion in a way they like, this is something that not only would affect Terry, but probably most of the roster.

In any case, I don't agree with Terry being overall a niche character, but even if he was, that still doesn't take away SNK's legacy. A lot of games and series are important and relevant in it's own way even if those series aren't really heavy hitters, such as Guilty Gear, which we mentioned before.
The series is a staple for anime fighting games since 1998, that's something most people agree with, and if the franchise ended getting a character in Smash, you could expect more people bringing that point to the table. That would mean people are changing the history and being revisionist in order to justify that inclusion? Obviously not.

 

[Megadoomer]

Speaking of Sprit Events and the like, has there been any news on what the next Spirit Event after Mana will be?

Not yet. We find out Tuesdays around 9 pm Eastern time on the Japanese Smash Bros. Twitter account.

 

[Cosmic77]

From what I seen, Japanese fans seems to be a lot more more mature and more accepting of characters being disconfirmed instead of clinging on to false hope. I mean look at the reaction difference to Byleth for one thing.

Could've worded that better. You make it sound as if it was admirable for ARMS fans to give up hope after the first pass and disgraceful for the remaining fans to say, "Who knows? It could happen."

 

[Koopaul]

Could've worded that better. You make it sound as if it was admirable for ARMS fans to give up hope after the first pass and disgraceful for the remaining fans to say, "Who knows? It could happen."

Not admirable. Reasonable. In the grand scheme of things your character of choice is up against a million. Looking at things from the lense of practicality is the reasonable thing to do. Our expectations are always subverted, but that's a bad reason to believe what you want to believe. In fact it's a good reason to believe that what makes sense to you proabably won't happen.

I just made a big long post about what I believe and I'm ready to accept that everything I said may be thrown out the window as soon as June rolls around.

 

[SKX31]

From what I seen, Japanese fans seems to be a lot more more mature and more accepting of characters being disconfirmed instead of clinging on to false hope. I mean look at the reaction difference to Byleth for one thing.

Then again, isn't it because the Japanese Smash fanbase didn't follow the same path as the NA / EU ones? Melee didn't become a premier, long lasting competitive game in Japan as it did in the West (largely because of recently-relaxed gambling laws prohibiting prize money), There's also no Japanese SmashBoards IIRC: SmashBoards was an epicentre of Brawl discussion and helped shape how the Western hardcore view newcomers. People with a "Serious Business" view came to this forum in droves, and that fueled loads of conflicts. Like the casual / competitive one and the banning one. Japan only became a competitive hotbed of a region during Smash 4 / Ultimate, when said laws were relaxed.

Another factor worth noting is that a lot of Japanese (and Chinese) streams do tend to overlay the comments into the streams itself. Not all, but many:

My overall point still stands: that there are probably a proportionally similar number of insane Japanese fans as there are Western fans. They just didn't have the same environment.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think using the Smash fanbase as a total barometer of popularity is off-base, if for no other reason than almost every single Cloud reaction video that was led into with an extremely iconic theme from Final Fantasy VII. Almost every reaction video was, “YO IT’S WOLF”, except for Max, and the Max video is one of the greatest videos of all time imho.

I say that as somebody who, at the time, didn’t think it was Wolf, but didn’t recognize the theme. But there’s also the fact that nobody expected Cloud because of who the character is.
-
I did also want to put a late two cents in on the Ballot discussion. I think the Ballot will always have relevance as a “historic” part of Smash history, as I believe that directly led to the roster we have in Ultimate.

That said, ballot data after five years has certainly lost a bit of potency. The Smash landscape is quite different than it was back then, and it clearly would probably have very different results if it were posted today. With big time picks like Ridley, K.Rool, or Banjo-Kazooie now in Smash, fans would have a much better chance at collectively voting for characters that still aren’t in.

I mean, I would imagine some folks were torn between voting for K.Rool OR Dixie Kong, not both (despite the IP thing). It was seen as a last ditch for certain characters, and I say that as someone who went all in on Snake and voted for him from like 4 different IP addresses. I was an absolute mad lad for it.

The Smash ballot tells us something, and that is what the sample size liked in 2015. We now have a much larger sample size, with a much different landscape in terms of what’s possible with characters like Joker and Terry Bogard, as well as Nintendo’s stronger 3rd party support. These things weren’t there in 2015, so while I don’t think the Smash Ballot results are “irrelevant” I don’t think it’s as relevant as it used to be.

Saying it’s still just as relevant as it always was is like saying a poll of people in a particular city/state/province/population saying they wanted to see one thing in 2015 wouldn’t change drastically or at all over 5 years, especially when there was dramatic change to the context of the questions being asked. I’d wager results would be different after 5 years.

It doesn’t mean Nintendo doesn’t have an idea of who/what is popular. Any company hosting the largest crossover fighter of all time would want to do field research of what fans talk about, so I get the feeling they get a pulse for that by checking fan websites such as this one.

Anyway, I could keep rambling but I won’t. Ballot information is important, but it’s not as important as it once was for a variety of reasons that apply to any poll or ballot.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I was impressed by @UserGoozer Challenger Pack mock up, so I decided to make one of my dream fighter packs.
This one is for Hornet from Hollow Knight, gotta keep myself occupied due lack of Silksong news...

Spoiler: Challenger Pack: Hornet

 

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apparently this is for Mother's Day.

Glad they decided to reference another Metroid Game! (In this case Metroid 2 and Super Metroid)

 

[Cosmic77]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apparently this is for Mother's Day.

Glad they decided to reference another Metroid Game! (In this case Metroid 2 and Super Metroid)

I love how three of the pics are sweet moments with a mother and her children, and one is a mother screaming at her two kids for staying up past their bedtime.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Dragon Quest series is iconic but the DLC is promoting Dragon Quest 11 on the Switch first and foremost.

False. Hero was going to be added regardless of promotional opportunities. The release of Hero and Dragon Quest XI S was just a coincidence, and if the music royalties weren't so high, he would have preceded the game by quite a bit. Unless SquareEnix was just withholding the game for a while, but that's getting into conspiracy theory territory.

This is how I see it. I hate to burst people's bubbles but acting so confidently that a certain character will be DLC is only going to lead to heartbreak. We need to be incredibly skeptical and look at things from all angles.

I also disagree that there are multiple angles for every single character. What's the angle for Joker other than Persona 5 being popular? What's the angle for Terry other than SNK's games being very influential within the FGC? You could argue that it could be a company relations thing but I don't think Nintendo needs to look for brownie points from Sega, and as you've said, there's really no way to know that kinda thing, so while it can be make a character seem more likely, or just possible, it can never be a citeable primary reason.

I do agree with you on one thing though: Don't get so emotionally invested in a character's inclusion that you are devastated when it doesn't happen. The reality of it is that there is not enough evidence to prove, or even become 70% certain that a character is going to be in. Even with the major hint of series we can't narrow it down.

I also think that statements like this is just preaching to the choir. Everyone who frequents here seems to be sensible enough to know this, and the people who do blow up after a character reveal are those that got burned by it, and are coming here to vent. It's kind of why "hype responsibly" feels more oppressive than guidance since...everyone is hyping responsibly. But since arguments with angry ranters suck, and the cause is usually a character they got way too invested in (either in love or hatred), enthusiasm seems to be perceived as an angry rant waiting to happen.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but that's kinda what I've been thinking for a while now.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Hate to interrupt your discussion but: NSO seems to be down, with varying effects for different people

in my case I CAN play Splatoon 2 online matches but the eshop doesn’t work properly. I wonder what’s going on now... maintenance, or?

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apparently this is for Mother's Day.

Glad they decided to reference another Metroid Game! (In this case Metroid 2 and Super Metroid)

So Pikachu Libre is the mother of Pichu, glad we’re getting all this lore

 

[BZL8]

Barring , I perceive that the general focus of the first Fighter Pass characters was that they were either from still-relevant long-runners and/or are modern. hailed from what some consider to be the best modern JRPG in this generation of gaming. hails from a long-running JRPG series that been a cultural phenomenon in Japan ever since its first installment. is the face of a third-party company that in addition to making the precursor that would shape Smash, still runs more than strong in the greater general fighting game community to this day. , in addition to being the newest character on the roster, hails from the only TRPG series to exceed the niche of its genre and become one of Nintendo's newest growing and lucrative IPs in the New 10s despite being around for 30 years.


I am currently of the mind that the second Fighter Pass season will continue that general focus. The first DLC character of the season hailing from one of Nintendo's newest IPs has personally solidified that mindset for me. This doesn't mean there probably won't be a Smash community-centric on that Pass though. Like with , I expect one or two characters on this pass to cater to the Smash community while the other four-five to continue that general focus. That's my personal take here.

 

[PSIGuy]

The 'Smash community picks' will probably just be characters people wanted at launch but weren't in for reasons (ie Rex and ARMS), which I'm sure will please a lot of people. Underwhelming as hell having to pay for characters that would've been in the game free if development started a few months later, though.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hate to interrupt your discussion but: NSO seems to be down, with varying effects for different people

in my case I CAN play Splatoon 2 online matches but the eshop doesn’t work properly. I wonder what’s going on now... maintenance, or?

Are there any consistencies? We might be able to figure something out from there.

 

[BZL8]

Hate to interrupt your discussion but: NSO seems to be down, with varying effects for different people

in my case I CAN play Splatoon 2 online matches but the eshop doesn’t work properly. I wonder what’s going on now... maintenance, or?

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

All network services
We are currently experiencing difficulties with our network services.
Please try again later.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

Seems to be a full outage.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The 'Smash community picks' will probably just be characters people wanted at launch but weren't in for reasons (ie Rex and ARMS), which I'm sure will please a lot of people. Underwhelming as hell having to pay for characters that would've been in the game free if development started a few months later, though.

True. Though another way of looking at it is that it's cool that these characters are getting their chance when they probably won't in a sequel. That is of course assuming that this is what's going on. Heh, for all we know the rest of the characters could be huge 3rd parties, and then Wind-Up Pikachu to support the newest Pokémon Rumble game.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I think using the Smash fanbase as a total barometer of popularity is off-base, if for no other reason than almost every single Cloud reaction video that was led into with an extremely iconic theme from Final Fantasy VII. Almost every reaction video was, “YO IT’S WOLF”, except for Max, and the Max video is one of the greatest videos of all time imho.

I say that as somebody who, at the time, didn’t think it was Wolf, but didn’t recognize the theme. But there’s also the fact that nobody expected Cloud because of who the character is.
-
I did also want to put a late two cents in on the Ballot discussion. I think the Ballot will always have relevance as a “historic” part of Smash history, as I believe that directly led to the roster we have in Ultimate.

That said, ballot data after five years has certainly lost a bit of potency. The Smash landscape is quite different than it was back then, and it clearly would probably have very different results if it were posted today. With big time picks like Ridley, K.Rool, or Banjo-Kazooie now in Smash, fans would have a much better chance at collectively voting for characters that still aren’t in.

I mean, I would imagine some folks were torn between voting for K.Rool OR Dixie Kong, not both (despite the IP thing). It was seen as a last ditch for certain characters, and I say that as someone who went all in on Snake and voted for him from like 4 different IP addresses. I was an absolute mad lad for it.

The Smash ballot tells us something, and that is what the sample size liked in 2015. We now have a much larger sample size, with a much different landscape in terms of what’s possible with characters like Joker and Terry Bogard, as well as Nintendo’s stronger 3rd party support. These things weren’t there in 2015, so while I don’t think the Smash Ballot results aren’t “irrelevant” I don’t think it’s as relevant as it used to be.

Saying it’s still just as relevant as it always was is like saying a poll of people in a particular city/state/province/population saying they wanted to see one thing in 2015 wouldn’t change drastically or at all over 5 years, especially when there was dramatic change to the context of the questions being asked. I’d wager results would be different after 5 years.

It doesn’t mean Nintendo doesn’t have an idea of who/what is popular. Any company hosting the largest crossover fighter of all time would want to do field research of what fans talk about, so I get the feeling they get a pulse for that by checking fan websites such as this one.

Anyway, I could keep rambling but I won’t. Ballot information is important, but it’s not as important as it once was for a variety of reasons that apply to any poll or ballot.

but jones

if i cant use fan polls or the smash ballot then how else can i use confirmation bias to peddle my character of choice?

surely this cant be right

 

[pupNapoleon]

Couple of months? 3 Houses released in July of 2019. we didn't get a character till January. that's 5-6 Months. They are willing to wait.

Again you miss the point- the character for Fire Emblem was decided in fighter pass one, which was out in July. Meaning, that if they wanted to add the Fire Emblem character in the first pass (which they clearly did), then they had no reason to put the spirits up.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Because I think it wouldn't be wise to go into speciffic threads just to point out why I highly doubt their character of choice will be in Fighters Pass 2, I decided to explain in general how I feel about fighter inclusion.

I don't think being a highly requested character is good enough on it's own. I don't think being a new Nintendo IP is good enough on it's own. I don't think being a 3rd party in good relationship with Nintendo is good enoughon it's own. I don't think being a video game icon is good enough on it's own.

There is no one argument for your requested character that is good enough all by itself. There needs to be multiple factors as to why a character would be added as DLC. The Fighters Pass is by and large a business decision from multiple angles. Especially when 3rd parties are involved. Nintendo is picking the fighters. Not Sakurai. You need to consider everything. Throw out all your biases and think like a suit at a Nintendo meeting.

FAN POLLS
If you think X character is likely because they did well on fan polls... Well sorry but that's not a good enough reason. Fan polls are unreliable and don't account for a large portion of the population. Fan polls shift like the wind. "What's that? Doom is on the Switch?" Polls are now bombarded with Doom Slayer requests. Then another turn of events occur and now another character is highly requested. It's too sparatic and always shifting. Nintendo is not constantly shifting with us.

3RD PARTY RELATIONS
"Rayman HAS to be a fighter because Ubisoft is on such good terms with Nintendo" I hear this argument a lot. We have NO IDEA what's going on behind those doors. No idea what business decisions Nintendo is making and for what reasons. Very few people have considered that maybe Nintendo doesn't care to add DLC of a character from a company they're on good terms with. It might be the exact opposite. The DLC might be a way to try and strengthen new relationship and even as a means to get that company to put more of their games on their system! Even this idea is merely speculation. We don't know. All I know is that being a hit 3rd party game on Nintendo consoles doesn't mean too much since we got freaking Cloud and Joker. Clearly there are other factors.

BEING A GAMING ICON
There are tons of "gaming icons". But we only have 5 more fighters left. You need to ask yourself: Is Joker a gaming icon? I guess, maybe? Banjo? Terry? The Dragon Quest series is iconic but the DLC is promoting Dragon Quest 11 on the Switch first and foremost. Maybe, just maybe, being a gaming icon is not that important when deciding DLC. I'm sure it's a factor. But just one factor. It doesn't carry too much weight on it's own, there needs to be another motive.

This is how I see it. I hate to burst people's bubbles but acting so confidently that a certain character will be DLC is only going to lead to heartbreak. We need to be incredibly skeptical and look at things from all angles.

I don't know if what you're saying is wrong or it's so obvious that it's condescending. I think you're making up strawmen when you speak of people who are 100% confident in a character getting in. That just doesn't happen that much.

And those factors you mentioned? DLC characters, at most have two of those, if not just one. So qualifying for one doesn't ensure that you'll get in, far from it. But it's not like it should be ignored either, it certainly helps to have it over not having it.

In hindsight, every pick makes sense. So before the reveals, it's logical for us to reason that if a character makes a lot of sense, then it's very likely. What's the alternative you're proposing, for people to speak as if all characters have the same chance? Sure, there are darkhorses and underdogs that eventually get in, but that doesn't mean they were always likely; it just means that they defied the odds.

【きょうの一枚】
5月10日は母の日。きびしくてやさしいお母さん、いつもありがとう。#スマブラSP #スマブラ画 #母の日 pic.twitter.com/wCPCdqyjgx

— 大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ【スマブラ公式】 (@SmashBrosJP) May 9, 2020

Apparently this is for Mother's Day.

Glad they decided to reference another Metroid Game! (In this case Metroid 2 and Super Metroid)

Come on, no Mother reference? It was served on a platter for them.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Same with Kirby who can't even get Bandana Dee himself in Smash or more representation from the modern games...

I am not stating that Bandana Dee could or could not get in- but it really isn't what I was stating about Zelda.
The world of Hyrule is mostly non-Hylian and quite very much not so human looking.
Every character from ToZ in Smash is quite similar visually, even if it is three races (Hylian, Gerudo, Sheikah... well I guess Sheik isn't Sheikah... actually thats a technicality of which I don't know).

The visual variation in Hyrule is not at all present, the diversity is not present, in Smash Bros.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I am not stating that Bandana Dee could or could not get in- but it really isn't what I was stating about Zelda.
The world of Hyrule is mostly non-Hylian and quite very much not so human looking.
Every character from ToZ in Smash is quite similar visually, even if it is three races (Hylian, Gerudo, Sheikah... well I guess Sheik isn't Sheikah... actually thats a technicality of which I don't know).

The visual variation in Hyrule is not at all present, the diversity is not present, in Smash Bros.

Aren't Sheikah just Hylian ninjas?

 

[Megadoomer]

Come on, no Mother reference? It was served on a platter for them.

Lucas and Ness are on the Gamer stage; I'd say that counts.

 

[Koopaul]

False. Hero was going to be added regardless of promotional opportunities. The release of Hero and Dragon Quest XI S was just a coincidence, and if the music royalties weren't so high, he would have preceded the game by quite a bit. Unless SquareEnix was just withholding the game for a while, but that's getting into conspiracy theory territory.

They made a whole stage dedicated to DQ11 and in the Hero's trailer it says "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Dragon Quest XI" specifically that game. That doesn't seem like a coincidence. It looks like they are clearly promoting that game.

I also disagree that there are multiple angles for every single character. What's the angle for Joker other than Persona 5 being popular? What's the angle for Terry other than SNK's games being very influential within the FGC? You could argue that it could be a company relations thing but I don't think Nintendo needs to look for brownie points from Sega, and as you've said, there's really no way to know that kinda thing, so while it can be make a character seem more likely, or just possible, it can never be a citeable primary reason.

Of course there is. What company would make a big money making decision that involves multiple parties without considering different factors. Just because we don't know exactly all the reasons why Terry was chosen doesn't mean there was merely one. There's a whole bunch of people involved with this kind of thing. Nintendo is probably considering all their options and which one would work out the best monetarily. It's not as simple as, "Hey Terry is a pretty influential character, let's just ring-a-ding SNK and ask them for their guy". Considering how Nintendo Online NES and SNES library started adding more SNK stuff, and other SNK titles started being added to the Switch, I can theorize that there's some sort of dealing going on between them and Terry in Smash is a part of it. But that's just a theory. All I know is that this stuff is way more complicated than we know and that all decisions when handling IP are always careful ones.

 

[BZL8]

Trying to label as a promotional pick is really disingenuous considering the Dragon Quest series' impact on the Japanese gaming industry and the massive behemoth cultural phenomenon it is in Japan since its first installment.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don’t know, could it possibly be that, JUST MAYBE, Dragon Quest could be both a promotional pick (which it absolutely was) and also a legacy pick (which it also was)?

Dragon Quest XIS gets built up as a “legendary series/game” in the March Direct where we got our first look at Joker. Then, right after Hero gets revealed for Smash Ultimate, it flows right into another trailer to hype up (and connect) to Dragon Quest XIS.

The crossover, just like Joker as “Persona 5”, was “Dragon Quest XIS”. It was easily a pick that had series legacy, but also an able opportunity to cross promote to help Square Enix promote a series that struggles in the west.

The Smash fanbase has a tough time separating a promotional pick, or the potential of a promotional pick, from it being 100% negative. A pick isn’t bad just because it’s promotional in nature.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

They made a whole stage dedicated to DQ11 and in the Hero's trailer it says "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Dragon Quest XI" specifically that game. That doesn't seem like a coincidence. It looks like they are clearly promoting that game.

I'm not saying they're not promoting the game, I'm saying it's not the reason for their inclusion, and that the fact that they were able to was because Hero's release was able to coincide with Dragon Quest XI S's release. Were they able to get Hero in the base game like they were initially discussing, Dragon Quest XI S's release would still be a ways away upon his inclusion.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Lucas and Ness are on the Gamer stage; I'd say that counts.

My eyes deceived me, I saw two Villagers instead of them somehow.

 

[Gribbo]

If I had to guess, they wanted to put Dragon Quest in Smash for a while and using it as a marketing tool was the easiest way to get the license.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

Honestly promotion pick is a dumb complaint considering how many arguments for certain characters I have seen just because certain game's get ported to the Switch means that character has a good chance like Crash, Tracer, Doom Slayer, Dante etc.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Honestly promotion pick is a dumb complaint considering how many arguments for certain characters I have seen just because certain game's get ported to the Switch means that character has a good chance like Crash, Tracer, Doom Slayer, Dante etc.

I think that's moreso meant for the "Nintendo connection" argument, but I get what you mean.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I also disagree that there are multiple angles for every single character. What's the angle for Joker other than Persona 5 being popular? What's the angle for Terry other than SNK's games being very influential within the FGC? You could argue that it could be a company relations thing but I don't think Nintendo needs to look for brownie points from Sega, and as you've said, there's really no way to know that kinda thing, so while it can be make a character seem more likely, or just possible, it can never be a citeable primary reason.

Actually, in the cases you bring up, we have some very clear reasoning as to why they were included.
Sakurai. As well as influence on Smash itself.

You can argue all you want that Nintendo hands down chose the characters.

Yet, we also know Persona 5 was a game Sakurai loved, and it had a lasting impact on Smash. It influenced the Interfact of the game dramatically.
Sakurai went out to say this as a fact- that the modes were organized like Persona 5.
Anyone remember Sm4sh? Trying to find anything on those screens was damned near impossible, and arguably very illogical.

Similar arguments of course apply to Fatal Fury- with stage entrances and other mechanics all being first inspired by this series, favorites of Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

I would have loved a Dragonlord boss fight alongside Hero divided in two phases: the first being his humanoid form and the other being his true dragon form.

I feel It would have been really cool if they did that.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Barring , I perceive that the general focus of the first Fighter Pass characters was that they were either from still-relevant long-runners and/or are modern. hailed from what some consider to be the best modern JRPG in this generation of gaming. hails from a long-running JRPG series that been a cultural phenomenon in Japan ever since its first installment. is the face of a third-party company that in addition to making the precursor that would shape Smash, still runs more than strong in the greater general fighting game community to this day. , in addition to being the newest character on the roster, hails from the only TRPG series to exceed the niche of its genre and become one of Nintendo's newest growing and lucrative IPs in the New 10s despite being around for 30 years.


I am currently of the mind that the second Fighter Pass season will continue that general focus. The first DLC character of the season hailing from one of Nintendo's newest IPs has personally solidified that mindset for me. This doesn't mean there probably won't be a Smash community-centric on that Pass though. Like with , I expect one or two characters on this pass to cater to the Smash community while the other four-five to continue that general focus. That's my personal take here.

I honestly don't understand what youre saying.
All the fighters have something in common from pass one- that they are
1- an outlier
2- legacy franchises
3- new franchises

... and then go on to state that the new pass will follow the same single rule...
but immediately defy it with the first character being a new IP.

Can you please help clarify what you mean?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think it's more that promo picks appear to be bad only if folks don't know the character or if they aren't first party. At least, recent ideas suggest that.

"Add a BOTW2 character to promote BOTW2!"
"Add a Sw/Sh Pokemon to promote the DLC!"
"Add Fiora to rep Xenoblade Chronicles DE!" (as if Shulk doesn't already do that anyway???)

This isn't to say that any of these characters would be bad. I just think there's a particular stigma against not only "promotional" picks, but I think to some folks there also a slant against 3rd party "promotional" picks. The reason? I don't really know. But it seems to be there.

In general, if the character is cool, fun to play, and is unique when they are added, who cares if they're a promo pick? Isn't every addition a promo pick in some aspect anyway?

 

[Animegamingnerd]

I think it's more that promo picks appear to be bad only if folks don't know the character or if they aren't first party. At least, recent ideas suggest that.

"Add a BOTW2 character to promote BOTW2!"
"Add a Sw/Sh Pokemon to promote the DLC!"
"Add Fiora to rep Xenoblade Chronicles DE!" (as if Shulk doesn't already do that anyway???)

This isn't to say that any of these characters would be bad. I just think there's a particular stigma against not only "promotional" picks, but I think to some folks there also a slant against 3rd party "promotional" picks. The reason? I don't really know. But it seems to be there.

In general, if the character is cool, fun to play, and is unique when they are added, who cares if they're a promo pick? Isn't every addition a promo pick in some aspect anyway?

Remember Byleith? I saw quite a few criticisms saying he is just a promotional pick just like Corrin.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think it's more that promo picks appear to be bad only if folks don't know the character or if they aren't first party. At least, recent ideas suggest that.

"Add a BOTW2 character to promote BOTW2!"
"Add a Sw/Sh Pokemon to promote the DLC!"
"Add Fiora to rep Xenoblade Chronicles DE!" (as if Shulk doesn't already do that anyway???)

This isn't to say that any of these characters would be bad. I just think there's a particular stigma against not only "promotional" picks, but I think to some folks there also a slant against 3rd party "promotional" picks. The reason? I don't really know. But it seems to be there.

In general, if the character is cool, fun to play, and is unique when they are added, who cares if they're a promo pick? Isn't every addition a promo pick in some aspect anyway?

I thought the two promo picks that got the most slack were first party- Corrin and Byleth.
To my memory these were two of the worst received characters.