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The logic prior to Fighter Pass 2 was that if it was already in the game, it wouldn’t be considered for a second role, being marketed as “entirely new to Smash”. This held up true for the entirety of Pass 1, unless we’re arguing semantics with Byleth being from Fire Emblem, a series already in Smash.
With Fighter Pass 2, this is obviously out the window considering ARMS, a series with content in Smash already, is getting a playable character. Spring Man is the “cover boy”/“mascot” but is already an Assist Trophy. This leads to the discussion of why it can or can’t happen.
If Spring Man wasn’t an Assist Trophy, I do believe this would be a slam dunk pick considering the decision-making with Terry Bogard and Ryu. Folks said the same exact stuff about Terry and Ryu as they are saying about Spring Man being “the lame ARMS character”. That didn’t matter then, so it will be interesting to see if it matters now.
Currently, Assist Trophies are officially confirmed, to disconfirm fighters. This hurts Spring Man's chances, though with him being the far and away most obvious choice for an ARMS character, it doesn't completely kill them either.
But as many people counters its considered an fan rule and Sakurai has broken many of those which is why people suspects Spring Man given he's the mascot/protagonist.
I mean if assists don't get promoted wouldn't it be Ribbon Girl as she's the other face of ARMS? She is shown on promotional covers after all with Spring Man.
Technically it's only a promotion if the old Assist is removed. If Spring Man is added without changing anything, he's not promoted from another role. The roles are added onto.
...Something silly I wanted to get off my chest. Promotion is a misleading term, heh. I get what people mean though.
It doesn't. For Sakurai, all he's doing is being given a character and has to make them work. Whatever role Spring Man at best could be worked with. Like they could change out small bits with his Spirit Battles to using him or do nothing different to save development time. Sure, he could remove the AT and replace it with Springtron, just requires more development time(which is why it's not a likely scenario. Likeliest is just to disable the AT when Spring Man is on the field, or one of his alts, respectively, and that's the most needed anyway).
It's a fan rule that an AT cannot exist if a character is playable. Same with an AT being promoted(note the above where it's misleading as a term, since they don't mean removing the AT so someone is playable. That's a promotion to begin with. They just mean an extra role. Obviously it's just easier to say promote regardless if it being misleading in the end. Nor does it really matter). Or a Spirit being promoted/the character who is a spirit gaining a new role.
But as many people counters its considered an fan rule and Sakurai has broken many of those which is why people suspects Spring Man given he's the mascot/protagonist.
It is not purely a fan rule, there are official sources where it is confirmed. I'm not saying that it can't be broken now, I'm just saying it's not something the fans just made up.
I hate to backtrack to my earlier comment, but I think we need a wee bit more context for this ARMS pick.
The other fighting-genre characters we have in Smash are Ryu and Terry Bogard. Both of those two characters are essentially treated as the “mascot” of their respective franchises. Both are essentially the “boring” picks among their respective rosters. This is why Nakoruru was suggested over Terry...because some felt she would be “more unique”, which actually doesn’t make sense considering Terry is plenty unique to Smash on his own.
Spring Man, while the Ryu or Terry to ARMS, is basically the “boring” pick of ARMS. Yet, he is the equivalent to those characters. I believe the true reason there is any debate as to whether it will be Spring Man or Min-Min is because Spring Man is already an Assist Trophy. In any other case, with any other franchise, or any other single title from a given franchise, we have always gotten the “mascot” or protagonist.
After all, Smash is a “mascot fighter”. It thrives on the big names crossing over with each other, regardless of the gameplay potential of the secondary cast of their respective games. This is exactly the case with several additions. Because this point will make my post quite long, I will spoiler it:
Now, the thing of it is, is that not all characters get added for the same reasons. It’s self-explanatory why Smash 64 started with the characters it did. They were clear mascots of Nintendo as a brand.
However, the further down the list you go, the more obscure certain picks become. Even if picks become obscure, in most cases the protagonist is still the most recognizable pick from a given series. There has never been a series that has added a character that was NOT the protagonist as their first pick. It has never happened.
If ARMS gets Min-Min as the first playable fighter in Smash, it would be the first of any series with a playable debut in Smash to not start with the protagonist. I would argue that if Spring Man were not an Assist Trophy, this conversation would be mostly over with.
If we assume that Nintendo and the dev team are fine with simply toggling Spring Man off when he is chosen as a playable character (which is something that has been done for other characters in particular situations) or maybe they don’t bother toggling it off at all and we have a situation like ZSS final smashing armored Samus in her identical armor suit, or Chrom being hit with Robin’s final Smash (which features Chrom) and then Chrom taunting Chrom as Chrom claps for Robin on the victory screen, I do have to wonder how strong of an argument it really is.
This. He may be 'boring' to people who play ARMS since they all have stretchy arms and some other gimmick to make them unique there. But in Smash? 'stretchy arms' is pretty unique by itself. You wouldn't need anything more than that to make a unique character.
They do have a mechanic to turn off certain assists on certain stages (like the Moon won't show up on Great Bay) or with a certain number of players (like Ditto won't appear in an 8 player game). I'm sure it'd be easy enough to comment Springo out if he was playing. Or even replace the assist with another character - wouldn't that kill all of our debates if Springo was playable and then we find out the assist slot has been wholesale replaced with Min?
In a way, Ribbon Girl is the character out of the top contenders who I expect the least.
The logic people typically use for why she would be added over other characters is that she's a mascot of sorts, but if that's what Nintendo is looking for in an ARMS character, why not just add Spring Man instead? It's like people believe Nintendo would actually be intimidated by an AT to the point where they'd go with their second choice.
I can't really see them going with her as a solo character since it seems that Springman is the 'mascot.' After all, he's the one who got the assist trophy AND Mii costume AND Spirit. She only got the latter two (and the other ARMS characters only got the Spirit if anything). If Ninty wants to make Springo the playable character, him already being an assist isn't going to stop them.
Now since she is a secondary mascot, I feel like she'd be a guarantee if they did a bunch of alts. I don't know if they'll be putting in echoes as much as people are planning on it (sidenote: don't alt mesh costumes also take up a character slot?), but if it's Springman with an alt, it'll be her before any of the others.
But as to what Scoliosis said above, you could also claim that Chun Li is a secondary Street Fighter mascot, as well as the first lady of fighting games. And yet, she's got... two Spirits in Smash? Even Guile beat her there.
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I guess the one thing that seems odd to me was the announcement. Why didn't they tell us who it was. "It's from ARMS." Okay, but that gives us 15 options. We're trying to whittle that down with our fanrules, which Sakurai has proven time and time again are bull****, so why not just tell us which character? ...unless they've got something planned, and that's why I'm thinking it may be a chimera.
It is not purely a fan rule, there are official sources where it is confirmed. I'm not saying that it can't be broken now, I'm just saying it's not something the fans just made up.
If you mean you're referring toanddo note those three weren't assists and playable in the same game. They began as assists in one game before becoming playable in the next one.
If you mean you're referring toanddo note those three weren't assists and playable in the same game. They began as assists in one game before becoming playable in the next one.
No, I'm referring to when Sakurai stated that since Waluigi is an Assist Trophy, he would not be playable.
Once again, Waluigi's Assist Trophy joins the collection!! Which also means he's not a playable character. Just because you try hard doesn't mean you'll make it into the battle.
Currently, the official word is that an Assist Trophy cannot be playable within the same game. Spring Man's addition can (and hopefully will) break this rule.
Pfft characters are old news, I want to hear about new stages!
So what are some of the stages you would like to see along with the DLC newcomers? What would be the layout and potentially unique mechanics/gimmicks of the stage?
But as many people counters its considered an fan rule and Sakurai has broken many of those which is why people suspects Spring Man given he's the mascot/protagonist.
This is why I have grown tired of the way the term “fan rule” is thrown around.
Are there fan rules that fan come up with? Yes. Are they always based on something? No. However, the whole thing I posted earlier, the one about mascot/protag always being first? That’s a “rule” literally backed up by Smash as a series. It’s not based on trivial things that I think suit my favorite picks, it’s an observation that explains quite a bit.
In all honesty the ARMS character will probably not focus on the individual aspects of the characters as the game itself does and will instead focus on the prospect of a long distance character and what the gameplay of ARMS is based around. The Arms.
This is why I think it’s Spring Man or a conglomerate character because after all is said and done the probability of Sakurai focusing on the mechanic of ARMS is more likely than fleshing out one of the many individual characters that would be better off as a separate character or echo later down the line. Worst case scenario is that this character is the only Arms representation we’re getting for the rest of time. And that seems like a very real possibility. The fact that everyone combats the idea of a conglomerate character when likely this will be the only ARMS character in the game just kind of baffles me.
tl;dr I don’t think Sakurai is going to focus on the aspects of each individual character. I think the focus is to highlight what the game is based around - Arms - and due to that they will either likely take the most basic character, Spring Man, and flesh him out with ARMS or make a conglomerate character and do the same.
He’s talking about the basegame, pointing out he won’t be a fighter, this says nothing for later DLC like this upcoming pass. I think Sakurai did once say ATs wouldn’t be playable in the same game (I might be wrong though, tbh I probably just read this from people a long time ago) but it was during Brawl, so they could still be considered later.
edit: yeah scratch that last part it sounded familiar but idk what the source is and what I found doesn’t have him saying that at all.
I saw the suggestion of fullscale voice acting and YES PLEASE so that Smash can FINALLY feel like a, you know, crossover. The best part of crossovers is seeing characters interact with each other and more VA work would likely mean victory quotes. It's a ****ing crime how only like 5 characters get unique victory quotes and only 1 isn't when winning from someone from the same series
Pfft characters are old news, I want to hear about new stages!
So what are some of the stages you would like to see along with the DLC newcomers? What would be the layout and potentially unique mechanics/gimmicks of the stage?
This is why I think it’s Spring Man or a conglomerate character because after all is said and done the probability of Sakurai focusing on the mechanic of ARMS is more likely than fleshing out one of the many individual characters that would be better off as a separate character or echo later down the line. Worst case scenario is that this character is the only Arms representation we’re getting for the rest of time. And that seems like a very real possibility. The fact that everyone combats the idea of a conglomerate character when likely this will be the only ARMS character in the game just kind of baffles me.
Well if you're only going to add one ARMS character, and only once, then I'd prefer it be someone stupid like Helix or Springtron than Spbbarin the completely unfaithful Smash creation.
As far as I'm concerned quality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quantity in this case.
EDIT: Unless they're a custom character or something, which would allow each character's individual characteristics to shine while still only taking up one slot. That would rule.
...Really. Cause that looks more like "Waluigi won't be playable cause he's an AT this time around" and not "All AT's cannot have another role like playable."
This was also made before DLC existed even. So it's kind of... meaningless? Why would he say anything about DLC if it's before DLC was a thing. Beyond at most Mewtwo, who was the only planned DLC, a unique bonus character. They eventually thought on other ones. He hasn't spoken about AT's and "not playable" since then. He's never stated this kind of rule to begin with and he's never said anything about DLC and AT's, regardless.
The rule exists purely due to observation, not a vast misreading of what he said.
I think if it ends up being spring man (which is what im personally am betting on), we can almost definitely expect a spring tron costume of some form. Either like dark link where its just a recolor or more like meta ridley where its a different model. It would be just too easy.
As a reminder, while Spring Man being playable shatters the “rule” of “Assist Trophies cannot become playable”, it doesn’t guarantee that other characters will follow suit.
Mind you, I would be absolutely ecstatic if we got Isaac and Rex as playable characters. It just seems to me that ARMS is a very specific example of a potential upgrade occurring because of a desired push for ARMS, rather than “fan demand warranted X character be playable”, that would likely be the reason behind Waluigi or Geno becoming playable.
Basically, no matter how you slice it a “rule” will be broken. But the aftermath of that broken rule is yet to be determined. I think it’s hard to make any prediction based on what we know right now. I would probably just suspect that Terry Bogard isn’t the last 3rd party playable character in Smash.
I think the best stage pick would be Sky Arena. It's the second most recognizable stage, it makes the most sense to add Headlok to, and it wouldn't just be a flat stage. Also the sunset would be pretty. I also don't imagine that Spring Stadium's springs would do a whole lot in Super Smash Bros., and the background would just be crowd.gif.
...Really. Cause that looks more like "Waluigi won't be playable cause he's an AT this time around" and not "All AT's cannot have another role like playable."
This was also made before DLC existed even. So it's kind of... meaningless? Why would he say anything about DLC if it's before DLC was a thing. Beyond at most Mewtwo, who was the only planned DLC, a unique bonus character. They eventually thought on other ones. He hasn't spoken about AT's and "not playable" since then. He's never stated this kind of rule to begin with and he's never said anything about DLC and AT's, regardless.
The rule exists purely due to observation, not a vast misreading of what he said.
Mind you, I would be absolutely ecstatic if we got Isaac and Rex as playable characters. It just seems to me that ARMS is a very specific example of a potential upgrade occurring because of a desired push for ARMS, rather than “fan demand warranted X character be playable”, that would likely be the reason behind Waluigi or Geno becoming playable.
I think while it would be safe to say supposed rules like "Spirits/ATs can not get promoted to a playable character", "Protagonists first", and "Too obscure or Niche to be playable" the fact of the matter is Sakurai is highly unpredictable and will almost always break fan expectations or rules at a moments notice.
You can Fighters Pack 1 broke a ton of rules and expectations fans had already.
The roster decisions is highly unpredictable. It's why as much as people want to find reasons otherwise, characters like Sol Badguy, Kazuma Kiryu, Reimu, Saber, or Monokuma have just as much fo a chance as Dante, Waluigi, Ryu Hayabusa, Spring Man, etc etc.
In ARMS, the crowd dresses up as the combatants, and waves around their paraphernalia. Do you think they'll do this in Super Smash Bros.? On the one hand, it'd be quite a bit of work to do this for all 80+ characters, but on the other hand, little details like this are what Super Smash Bros. is made of.
Is there DLC and AT mentioned anywhere? No? Then it's a pure fan rule with no actual basis to be made from Sakurai's own statements. Precedent is a completely different thing from him actually stating a rule. The only rule he stated was "no non-video game characters will be playable" at best.
And if you want to get technical, he reconfirmed that Echoes must have the same exact bodyshape as their base. Anything beyond that is superfluous to begin with and not a hard rule.
It isn't at all, Sakurai meant that because of how both were being developed around the same time, nothing was finalized for Rex. Imagine if Rex primarily fought with his grappling hook instead of a sword until later in development, that'd be time and resources wasted for a character who's unrecognizable, especially as Sakurai said he has some regrets regarding Roy. Byleth would have been in the exact same scenario if 3H came out in 3H but lo and behold, DLC doesn't take 3 years to complete. The reason why Byleth got in as DLC yet Rex didn't is that Nintendo simply didn't want to promote XB2 but rather 3H
I think the best stage pick would be Sky Arena. It's the second most recognizable stage, it makes the most sense to add Headlok to, and it wouldn't just be a flat stage. Also the sunset would be pretty. I also don't imagine that Spring Stadium's springs would do a whole lot in Super Smash Bros., and the background would just be crowd.gif.
I completely disagree, but it doesn't really matter so I'm not really going to argue.
I kinda hope that Rex will be playable since they were like "Xenoblade Chronicles 2 appeared too late to be added." View attachment 270227
Even if you don't like Rex you have to agree that's kinda screwey.
i still think Too Late To Be Added was an excuse, and the real reason was not being able to translate mechanics. they've found a way for ARMS now, but I maintain that their chosen character won't be Spring Man. I don't have much hope for Akira Howard making it either
In ARMS, the crowd dresses up as the combatants, and waves around their paraphernalia. Do you think they'll do this in Super Smash Bros.? On the one hand, it'd be quite a bit of work to do this for all 80+ characters, but on the other hand, little details like this are what Super Smash Bros. is made of.
considering how much work they put in to the banjo kazooie stage and how they even included banjos little sister or something running around the background even tho most people wouldn't notice. I would say its probably safe to assume they would put in the work for the background fans dressing up
I think while it would be safe to say supposed rules like "Spirits/ATs can not get promoted to a playable character", "Protagonists first", and "Too obscure or Niche to be playable" the fact of the matter is Sakurai is highly unpredictable and will almost always break fan expectations or rules at a moments notice.
You can Fighters Pack 1 broke a ton of rules and expectations fans had already.
The roster decisions is highly unpredictable. It's why as much as people want to find reasons otherwise, characters like Sol Badguy, Kazuma Kiryu, Reimu, Saber, or Monokuma have just as much fo a chance as Dante, Waluigi, Ryu Hayabusa, Spring Man, etc etc.
Just to point something out here, you mention the “protagonist/mascot first” rule as something that could be “broken”, yet the characters you listed are all the protagonist/mascots of their given series.
Just thought that was interesting. I don’t personally think it’s really that convoluted, moreso that this particular fanbase has a hard time becoming more inclusive to particular picks. Also mind you, Nintendo has more power over these picks, so it’s not just Sakurai being “unpredictable”.
Though, I’m not really a fan of the argument that, “Sakurai is unpredictable, therefore predicting things is meaningless”. If that’s the case, then why are we here? That seems to just be a statement to shut down discussion of potential factors of inclusion, which I think are quite valuable in making predictions.
Just to point something out here, you mention the “protagonist/mascot first” rule as something that could be “broken”, yet the characters you listed are all the protagonist/mascots of their given series.
Just thought that was interesting. I don’t personally think it’s really that convoluted, moreso that this particular fanbase has a hard time becoming more inclusive to particular picks. Also mind you, Nintendo has more power over these picks, so it’s not just Sakurai being “unpredictable”.
Though, I’m not really a fan of the argument that, “Sakurai is unpredictable, therefore predicting things is meaningless”. If that’s the case, then why are we here? That seems to just be a statement to shut down discussion of potential factors of inclusion, which I think are quite valuable in making predictions.
It was to connect to the earlier discussion of a Non-protag who could break that rule who have a good chance.
I do feel like the main issue with predicting is that most people are always dead set on a particular group of characters being inevitable and then getting surprised when someone like Hero or Terry joins the fray.
Though that can be said that Smash ain't the most inclusive for character predictions. Hence why the same, usual batch of characters get brought up a lot and them instantly dismissing others simply because they ain't part of that circle.
I think that's more the issue for me: People so dead set on thinking that Sora/Geno/Waluigi/Doom Guy/Hayabusa/Dante/Steve are inevitable that they focus just on that circle and freak out when someone who ain't them is revealed. It's just a pattern I noticed.
The other fighting-genre characters we have in Smash are Ryu and Terry Bogard. Both of those two characters are essentially treated as the “mascot” of their respective franchises. Both are essentially the “boring” picks among their respective rosters. This is why Nakoruru was suggested over Terry...because some felt she would be “more unique”, which actually doesn’t make sense considering Terry is plenty unique to Smash on his own.
Terry is a bit of a special case. It's true that he's the main character of Fatal Fury but let's be honest... there hasn't been a Fatal Fury game in over 20 years. KoF has been the flagship fighter for SNK for the longest time, and Terry isn't a main character there. His own stage contains plenty of characters that don't originate from Fatal Fury, but KoF (among others) instead.
You could say he's the mascot of SNK as a whole, rather than just a singular series, as he brings music and spirits from various SNK titles, but again that makes him a special case doesn't it? The only other character I can think of that tries to broadly represent a company as a whole is Pacman, and he mostly focuses on retro arcade Namco games.
I saw the suggestion of fullscale voice acting and YES PLEASE so that Smash can FINALLY feel like a, you know, crossover. The best part of crossovers is seeing characters interact with each other and more VA work would likely mean victory quotes. It's a ****ing crime how only like 5 characters get unique victory quotes and only 1 isn't when winning from someone from the same series
I looked up the video that has all the personal victory quotes in Ultimate and it wasn't even 2 minutes long and of course half of it was between the FE cast
Oh well better than nothing...
I looked up the video that has all the personal victory quotes in Ultimate and it wasn't even 2 minutes long and of course half of it was between the FE cast
Oh well better than nothing...
Just to point something out here, you mention the “protagonist/mascot first” rule as something that could be “broken”, yet the characters you listed are all the protagonist/mascots of their given series.
Just thought that was interesting. I don’t personally think it’s really that convoluted, moreso that this particular fanbase has a hard time becoming more inclusive to particular picks. Also mind you, Nintendo has more power over these picks, so it’s not just Sakurai being “unpredictable”.
Though, I’m not really a fan of the argument that, “Sakurai is unpredictable, therefore predicting things is meaningless”. If that’s the case, then why are we here? That seems to just be a statement to shut down discussion of potential factors of inclusion, which I think are quite valuable in making predictions.
Besides that, with Nintendo choosing the DLC, not him, it's really more how Sakurai can be unpredictable in how he represents the character.
It's safe to say nobody was expecting Clonedorf in the first place. Yes, it makes sense in hindsight and he's a lot more faithful since Brawl, sure. But that's far less of what was expected. It also doesn't help in OOT he didn't actually have a lot to take from either for a full moveset. WW and TP gave him a lot more abilities to begin with. Just for one example. If you want more, you have Falcon, Zero Suit Samus, and Fox. None of them play really what you'd expect them to be like. And that's just what it is. Sakurai has to take creative liberties to fill out a moveset. The biggest thing is that he doesn't fill in blank spots with moves just cause you can, they all fit in a way that compliments their movesets. Even if a move or two sucks(Hi, Volcano Kick), it still fits the character's overall design. Even in Melee, Ganondorf isn't fast, just about average speed, and his attacks aren't as clearly powerful when they're fast. As he evolved, his stronger attacks became slower, and he gained new skills that fit the "power" part of him.
Nonetheless, I think whoever it is(likely Spring Man), he'll blow us away with some unique flair we didn't see coming. ...Not to say all will like it, just be surprised.
Tbh the only major issue with Smash's voice acting is the treatment of Bowser and the DK Crew. Yeah, DKC gave Donkey Kong and Diddy realistic ape noises while Bowser's voice kinda matches Mario 64, but Kenny James and Takashi Nagasako give their a lot more character in their performance than royalty free monster and ape sounds respectively.
