Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[AceAttorney9000]

Sooooooooooooooooooooo, who do you think has a 100% chance of getting in

Superman, from the critically acclaimed Nintendo 64 masterpiece, The New Superman Aventures.

 

[wynn728]

If it werent for Piranha Plant, FE would be tied with Mario

So praise the

No.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's the thing, DLC was finalized before Three Houses released. There was no telling that Three Houses would've been received well, Sakurai had to play an early copy just to get an idea of what to do with that character. Byleth's inclusion had nothing to do with the quality of Three Houses, all that matter was it was a Fire Emblem game.

Plus Sakurai said relevancy doesn't matter, only if the character is fun. But it's not like that matters anymore, Byleth ain't paving the way for any other character.

That would honestly be the biggest Smash gamble in like.,..ever. Imagine that we live in a parallel world wherein 3H wasn't as well-received as it is in our curretn timeline...dear God the salt will be tons and tons larger compared to the salt we have right now.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Please don't. We don't need another debate.

I mean it was only a debate previously to begin with due to Pokemon's popularity.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Gen 8 Pokemon are deconfirmed. Same reason as Resident Evil and Astral Chain.

They can treat the DLC Expansion as separate event from the base game and just call it the...

"Pokemon Sword & Shield (Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra) Event".

 

[?????????????]

Here's the thing, DLC was finalized before Three Houses released. There was no telling that Three Houses would've been received well, Sakurai had to play an early copy just to get an idea of what to do with that character. Byleth's inclusion had nothing to do with the quality of Three Houses, all that matter was it was a Fire Emblem game.

Given the financial success of Awakening, Fates, and Heroes, Three Houses doing well was not hard to speculate.

Especially as the first console FE since Ike’s games; that’s monumental within itself, and they had a lot more resources to work with.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

They can treat the DLC Expansion as separate event from the base game and just call it the...

"Pokemon Sword & Shield (Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra) Event".

Again you guys assume all this due to Pokemon's popularity. If it was the opposite the same would be said for Astral Chain and Resident Evil.

Funny you say for those two its a deconfirmation but Pokemon it isn't just because under the assumption of its popularity.

 

[Idon]

Plus Sakurai said relevancy doesn't matter, only if the character is fun. But it's not like that matters anymore, Byleth ain't paving the way for any other character.

Could we stop misquoting him? He said this:

"not just recognizable"
Meaning being recognizable to a certain extent probably is important, just that having good moveset potential is moreso, which is something everyone can agree on.

 

[TheYungLink]

Hey VeryPurpleG , just wanna reassure you that even if you end up agreeing with the people explaining to you why Fire Emblem tend to attract a negative reaction, if you like Fire Emblem and are okay with the amount of characters it has gotten, that's fine too.

Fire Emblem has gotten many characters through circumstance and luck. Here's a history lesson:

Spoiler: Long but educational

History start!

• In Melee, Marth was added to Smash due to Fire Emblem being a pretty big Nintendo series in Japan. Marth was actually planned for the very first Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64, but, like with Bowser, Mewtwo, and King Dedede, was scrapped due to a lack of enough time to include them all. He was meant to be a different sword character from Link, being simpler and more intuitive but without any projectiles.
• In Melee, again, Sakurai also planned on including the main character from the latest Fire Emblem game at the time, since almost all Fire Emblem games star different protagonists. Originally, Roy's game, Binding Blade, was going to release before Melee, but was pushed back to after Melee's release. Roy unintentionally ended up being a promotional pick as a result, though many overseas players didn't realize this. Nonetheless, Roy became incredibly popular among Smash fans since his fire sword made him cooler than Marth in the eyes of many. Roy's popularity during this time is important.
• In Brawl, Sakurai didn't have any explicit plans to include a new Fire Emblem character. Instead, his design document specified a character carrying a heavy sword. Intelligent Systems suggested Ike from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, as while Ike was very quick and fast in that game, he wielded a two-handed sword. Sakurai included Ike in Brawl from there. (Fire Emblem fans: if I got any info wrong, please correct me, I dunno if Source Gaming has clarified this or not). Roy ended up being cut from Brawl, and ended up being very missed despite his game still not releasing outside of Japan.
• Smash 4 3DS / Wii U released after Awakening, the Fire Emblem game that revitalized and rescued the series from total obscurity and financial trouble. Naturally, a character from the game was expected, though people expected either Chrom or Robin, the former moreso. Awakening centers around those two characters and Chrom's daughter from the future, Lucina, herself by far the most popular character from the game. Unexpectedly, we not only got Robin instead of Chrom, but we got the fan-favorite Lucina as a quick, low-effort clone of Marth. This is because Lucina was originally going to be an alternate costume for Marth like the Koopalings were for Bowser Jr., before Sakurai decided to give her her own "slot" since she was slightly shorter than Marth at that point, and Sakurai felt battles with the two costumes would be different enough to warrant it with the height difference in mind. Marth and Ike were kept from Brawl, so the total amount of characters from Fire Emblem in Smash at this point went from 2 to 4, though again Lucina was a very quick and easy inclusion and isn't comparable to Robin, who required many more resources and dev time.
• The DLC for Smash 4 kicked off with Mewtwo, a beloved Melee character who missed not only Brawl but the base game of Smash 4. His return was so well-received that Sakurai decided to include two more characters that were cut in previous games. He brought back Lucas from Brawl, but for Melee, he noticed that many players missed Roy a lot, so he decided to bring Roy back. Unlike Lucina, another Marth clone, Roy was a full on semi-clone, meaning while he shared some moves with Marth like in Melee, he retained his substantial differences from Melee and gained many more. If Roy wasn't so missed, and if Roy was never included in Smash 4, his popularity would most likely have died off, so he came back at a perfect time. Fire Emblem now had 5 characters, but, so far, everyone had a good reason for being here.
• The DLC for Smash 4 concluded, partly, with a controversial pick, Corrin. Sakurai wanted to include a promotional character, and didn't decide right away to make them a Fire Emblem character. However, members on his development team gradually convinced him to include Corrin because they were part-dragon, and would allow for a playable Manakete (dragon-human people) in Smash, like how Robin included the first Fire Emblem mage in Smash. Sakurai expressed hang ups that there were a lot of Fire Emblem characters at this point, and was unsure if including another would be a good idea, but eventually relented. In other words, while Corrin was included after all, Sakurai did not set out to include Corrin from the outset. If people claim otherwise, they're painting a false narrative. I personally don't like Corrin or their game, and in retrospect I wish Sakurai picked Elma from Xenoblade Chronicles X, but either way Sakurai's decision to include them in Smash 3 DLC was not a "**** you" in any way.
• In Smash Ultimate, there were no Fire Emblem characters made from the ground up for the game. Instead, due to Everyone Is Here, everyone from Smash 4 (including the previously cut Roy) made a grand return, and at the time the latest Fire Emblem game that wasn't a remake of an older game that had been released was still FIre Emblem Fates, so Sakurai had little incentive to add another Fire Emblem character this time. However, due to requests worldwide (but mainly in Japan), he decided to finally add Chrom from Fire Emblem Awakening as a playable character, as an Echo Fighter (low effort easy clone) of Roy. Chrom had built up a big fanbase since his debut in Awakening and especially since he was snubbed in Smash 4, and now, the main trio of Awakening was finally complete, and Chrom's inclusion is one of the most celebrated for this reason. In other words, if fan demand wasn't so big for Chrom, and if Roy wasn't brought back before Chrom was included, Chrom most likely would have missed the boat entirely since Sakurai evidently didn't want to make him an Ike clone like many were expecting.
• Finally, we have the DLC for Smash Ultimate. Fire Emblem Three Houses released after Ultimate, and instantly became one of the most widely beloved and praised games by both fans and critics. There were actually a number of fans who were genuinely afraid that, after Corrin's negative reception, that a 3H character would be excluded from Smash Ultimate DLC. It didn't help that the previous 4 Fighter's Pass characters were all non-Nintendo, leading many to think no Nintendo characters would ever be added past Ultimate's initial release date aside from Piranha Plant. However, Sakurai played an early build of Three Houses like he did with Zelda: Breath of the WIld, and included Byleth as a Fire Emblem character that would utilize more than just a sword. Byleth had a bow, an axe, and a lance, plus their sword was a whipsword meaning it would still lend itself to different sword attacks than the previous Fire Emblem characters. Personally, while I wanted a Three Houses character, I wanted one of the house leaders like Edelgard or Claude, since they looked more interesting to me than Byleth. Either way, though, while Byleth is another promotional pick, they were a promotional pick that people were explicitly hoping would happen unlike with Corrin, and many fans are grateful that a Three Houses character managed to make it in after all.

And here we are now.

So, all in all, I would only explicitly call Roy, Corrin, and Byleth promotional picks in that they were implemented with the purpose of advertising a recent or upcoming game from the start. While Ike and Robin were also the most recent protagonists of Fire Emblem at the time of their inclusion, it was not their main reason for inclusion. Meanwhile, both Lucina and Chrom are huge fan favorites and being included as low-effort clones to satisfy their demand is hardly worthy of the same criticism thrown at Corrin or Byleth.

That should clear up why there are so many Fire Emblem characters, to the point where it's the series with the third-most amount of characters after Mario and Pokemon. Those series certainly make tons of money, but Fire Emblem had luck, circumstance, and yes, genuine fan demand on its side.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

What Idon said.

 

[Deleted member]

Please don't. We don't need another debate.

Brb while you guys settle this among yourselves.

 

[snowgolem]

Byleth looks pretty cool and she’s pretty fun to play as
And I’m not gonna go on about how Sakurai said that recognizability is less important or whatever
They’re fun to play and that’s kinda what matters. If it was the last character, I’d understand hate. But it isn’t. We’re only halfway through, and that’s not including any possible standalone fighters.

 

[Idon]

Oh my God, what's that in the distance? Oh no, oh God, it can't be! NOT HER!

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[Cosmic77]

I mean it was only a debate previously to begin with due to Pokemon's popularity.

Not really. Aside from Astral Chain, what other first-party games that were recently released could get a character? Anything that had a realistic chance of getting a character has already been included because of Spirits.

This is still a gray area for a lot of people, regardless of how clear and simple it might seem to you. Nothing is confirmed.

They can treat the DLC Expansion as separate event from the base game and just call it the...

"Pokemon Sword & Shield (Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra) Event".

They might as well just take content from the base game too. Limiting content to just DLC seems like a really dumb way to conform to the "Spirits deconfirm" rule.

The expansions are still SwSh.

 

[wynn728]

I don’t agree that that’s the motive.

I believe that, like Pokémon, they’re in a position where they can’t possibly add every “main character” that makes sense for Smash Bros.

Other series are easy. Yes, there’s great potential extras to add, but...if a kid picks up a Mario game, you’ll play as Mario, and then you can play as that character in Smash. Same goes for Link, DK, Kirby, Samus, etc.

Fire Emblem doesn’t work that way. Marth isn’t an interesting or recognizable character for someone who has just gotten into Fire Emblem: Three Houses, because he’s not there and isn’t related in any fashion.

I think they accounted for that from the get-go, and had a “reserved spot” for a Fire Emblem newcomer, like Incineroar was for Pokémon. But instead of “using” it right away, they saved it for when the “soon to be” game was happening.

It’s not really an “advertisement” when the game has already sold well. It was just easy to predict it would do well given Awakening, Fates, and Heroes success.

During Byleth presentation Sakurai was explaining how to play Fire Emblem, say what Three Houses was all about, and had the Three Houses DLC play right after Byleth's announcement. It was an advertisement. Just because the game already sold well doesn't mean you can't still advertise it. They put Byleth in before the game was even out, even with the pattern of FE games selling well doesn't mean they can't continue advertising in Smash Bros.

 

[PSIGuy]

"Wouldn't it be really embarassing if Nintendo hardcore marketed a game that ended up being really divisive???"
haha yeah that'd be nuts dude

now what would really be nuts is if they hardcore marketed a game that ****ing needs it for once

 

[wynn728]

That would honestly be the biggest Smash gamble in like.,..ever. Imagine that we live in a parallel world wherein 3H wasn't as well-received as it is in our curretn timeline...dear God the salt will be tons and tons larger compared to the salt we have right now.

Do you not remember Corrin getting in before Fates released in the west and how that game is the biggest mix bag in the FE series where most people disliked it?

We already had that timeline, it just that Sakurai was smart to have that character tied with Cloud and Bayonetta. Too bad he just stopped caring.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Again you guys assume all this due to Pokemon's popularity. If it was the opposite the same would be said for Astral Chain and Resident Evil.

Funny you say for those two its a deconfirmation but Pokemon it isn't just because under the assumption of its popularity.

I mean if you were Nintendo/Pokemon Company, Why wouldn't you take advantage of the situation ? It would be stupid not to from a business perspective.

Super Smash Bros Ultimate is already near 18 million in sales and Pokemon Sword & Shield is already over 16 million (In under 2 months !!!) Chances are there is overlap with the 2 just like with other major Nintendo franchises.

Why is it considered so insane to think they can't add a new gen Pokemon? Is it a guarantee? Of course not, But it's still a realistic possibility some people are making it sound like we are asking for Sony character or a random off the wall cartoon character.

Gen 8 just barely launched and we already have Greninja repping Gen 6 and Incineroar Gen 7, Like I said before it's not a guarantee, But don't be surprised if Nintendo/Pokemon Company nudge Sakurai to push one of the Pokemon they plan to market and promote via DLC.

 

[?????????????]

People REALLY like to exaggerate Fates’ shortcomings.

It had problems, but as it stands, it’s still the best selling FE game (3H will almost definitely overtake it soon).

And it’s characters have been really milked in Heroes and Warriors. Through popularity polls.

 

[TriggerX]

The issue with Byleth is a smash bros problem. It really has nothing to do with fire emblem per say .
Most FE characters don’t deviate from eachother that much in terms of appearance and gameplay so it’s understandable why people would be upset.


the outcome would be different if we had been given more characters that varied more from the series from the beginning : Marth, Corrin, Robin, Byleth.

An arrangement like this would keep fans expectations of new FE characters higher.

You don’t have this issue with most Pokemon/Mario characters because they are fundamentally different which is why people don’t complain about them in large masses.

Overall No one doubts that FE is a great series with great characters to explore, but unfortunately poor decisions in the past were made to best represent it in smash bros.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Here's the thing, DLC was finalized before Three Houses released. There was no telling that Three Houses would've been received well, Sakurai had to play an early copy just to get an idea of what to do with that character. Byleth's inclusion had nothing to do with the quality of Three Houses, all that matter was it was a Fire Emblem game.

Plus Sakurai said relevancy doesn't matter, only if the character is fun. But it's not like that matters anymore, Byleth ain't paving the way for any other character.

All things where looking great for Three Houses. First 3D Fire Emblem in a long time since the early Wii days, exploration mechanic, choosing between 3(4) sides of the story..? There was no way Three Houses wasn't gonna be amazing. Don't lie.

 

[?????????????]

The issue with Byleth is a smash bros problem. It really has nothing to do with fire emblem per say .
Most FE characters don’t deviate from eachother that much in terms of appearance and gameplay so it’s understandable why people would be upset.


the outcome would be different if we had been given more characters that varied more from the series from the beginning : Marth, Corrin, Robin, Byleth.

An arrangement like this would keep fans expectations of new FE characters higher.

You don’t have this issue with most Pokemon/Mario characters because they are fundamentally different which is why people don’t complain about them in large masses.

Overall No one doubts that FE is a great series with great characters to explore, but unfortunately poor decisions in the past were made to best represent it in smash bros.

It really is circumstantial.

Ultimate runs an “everyone is here” theme, so all vets had to return.

I don’t think we should count “echoes,” but some do, and that pushes FE to “8 reps.”

Roy’s insertion was probably mostly a result of the same factors that created all clones at the time, and only returned BECAUSE of fan demand lol

Ike and Robin made sense as additions in their time. Corrin was a bit of a “jump the gun” in my opinion, and at that point, I think you would have no reason to exclude Byleth.

 

[pinshadow]

So uh, Platinum still has 3 more announcements, probably all this week. So unless Platinum has 3 random new games to announce, pretty sure one of those will be Bayonetta 3 getting a proper reveal, and no way that won't be in a normal direct. Just saying.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Still of the opinion Spirit Boards/Events deconfirms an character.

 

[Idon]

Marth, Corrin, Robin, Byleth.

Listen, I don't care how much you give a **** about your gameplay gimmicks, but cutting Ike, the BAR NONE most popular character in the entire franchise, one of the few that is universally beloved by both Smash fans and Fire Emblem fans for CORRIN, ROBIN, AND BYLETH, the 3 most divisive main characters in the franchise, is a mistake I'm pretty sure no one will agree with.

Also Ike fights nothing like Marth or Roy, what is with people misconstruing him with them. That's like saying Bowser plays too much like Mario because they both got punches.

 

[?????????????]

Listen, I don't care how much you give a **** about your gameplay gimmicks, but cutting Ike, the BAR NONE most popular character in the entire franchise, one of the few that is universally beloved by both Smash fans and Fire Emblem fans for CORRIN, ROBIN, AND BYLETH, the 3 most divisive main characters in the franchise, is a mistake I'm pretty sure no one will agree with.

Also Ike fights nothing like Marth or Roy, what is with people misconstruing him with them. That's like saying Bowser plays too much like Mario because they both got punches.

All I can think is that they both have Counters. That’s literally it, right?

 

[Mamboo07]

Oh my God, what's that in the distance? Oh no, oh God, it can't be! NOT HER!

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Who's that suppose to be? Lyn or Mai?

 

[snowgolem]

I may be 100% wrong about this, but I feel like less people would care for any Fire Emblem character if we had an alternate outfit for Lucina with her mask in Awakening when she goes by the pseudonym Marth because it would look sick as frick

 

[wynn728]

All things where looking great for Three Houses. First 3D Fire Emblem in a long time since the early Wii days, exploration mechanic, choosing between 3(4) sides of the story..? There was no way Three Houses wasn't gonna be amazing. Don't lie.

Fates came before Three Houses and was not received well by fans because of the characters and story. There's always a chance that things can go sideways.

 

[Idon]

All I can think is that they both have Counters. That’s literally it, right?

I guess they have a similar-ish fair? an arcing overhead swing, but... lot of characters have that. Roy also stole Ike's dair in Smash 4. Most swordwielders also have that dsmash where they cut forward and then backwards, but that move sucks and no one uses it (outside of memers like Byleth).

That's all nevermind the fact that they all have different purposes depending on the character due to the character's own attributes and unique move properties. You're not going to be doing anything remotely similar between Marth, Roy, and Ike. And this is coming from me, the guy who absolutely hates Roy and wishes he was replaced with Alm or Leif or anyone else.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Who's that suppose to be? Lyn or Mai?

it's Lai, obviously

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm convinced that most "detractors" of Fire Emblem have no idea what they're talking about when they talk about the characters.

I don't really mean that for the disrespect, but for the reality. I've seen too many people make assumption about characters that just...don't make sense.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fates came before Three Houses and was not received well by fans because of the characters and story. There's always a chance that things can go sideways.

Except that Fates did very well.

 

[snowgolem]

Would anybody here have preferred Camilla instead of Corrin as Sm4sh DLC? Asking for a friend

 

[Diddy Kong]

Would anybody here have preferred Camilla instead of Corrin as Sm4sh DLC? Asking for a friend

No. Why? People where rallying behind Azura as well just because she has a Lance. In the end Corrin ended up quite unique, and still is. And how you want to incorporate a wyvern riding unit in Smash anyway?

 

[?????????????]

Would anybody here have preferred Camilla instead of Corrin as Sm4sh DLC? Asking for a friend

Nooooooooo.

 

[TriggerX]

Listen, I don't care how much you give a **** about your gameplay gimmicks, but cutting Ike, the BAR NONE most popular character in the entire franchise, one of the few that is universally beloved by both Smash fans and Fire Emblem fans for CORRIN, ROBIN, AND BYLETH, the 3 most divisive main characters in the franchise, is a mistake I'm pretty sure no one will agree with.

Also Ike fights nothing like Marth or Roy, what is with people misconstruing him with them. That's like saying Bowser plays too much like Mario because they both got punches.

Lol I use Ike,
That list wasn’t about cutting characters, Nor do I believe any character should be cut at this point.

It was about introducing characters in a different order to change people’s perception on the series.
The only reason I chose these 4 is because their gameplay and looks greatly vary from eachother.

 

[snowgolem]

No. Why? People where rallying behind Azura as well just because she has a Lance. In the end Corrin ended up quite unique, and still is. And how you want to incorporate a wyvern riding unit in Smash anyway?

I was asking because I had heard people talking about it before, and I have no idea. Maybe it could be like Wario’s Bike.

 

[wynn728]

Except that Fates did very well.

Just because something sells well doesn't mean the product was good.

 

[?????????????]

Just because something sells well doesn't mean the product was good.

It doesn't.

But Fates was good.