Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[nessdeltarune00]

I firmly believe folks misunderstand where the skepticism of spirit upgrades stems from.

It is the not the fact that pngs exist and that Sakurai is somehow not able to go past a png.

It’s the concept of what Spirits are, and the fact that some have been withheld for particular times and others have not, added onto the fact that they function as if they were actually the character themselves as a concept.

The argument is that for two straight scenarios of Smash DLC (as in, this is based on evidence and precedent) the only DLC newcomers to Smash have been 3rd party characters that bring a stage, music, and spirits (Ultimate), or relevant first party newcomers that just so happen to both be from recent Fire Emblem games. On top of that, every DLC choice has been a main protagonist from said game or franchise.

There’s also the fact that Sakurai has seemingly suggested in the past that non-playable roles count just as much as playable ones in the crossover. He also said he would like to continue the crossover, and “improve on the record”.

Now, it’s not a rule that this will “absolutely, positively” play out this way. But this idea? The fact that previous evidence suggests another potential outcome? There’s stuff out there, like the things I mentioned, that lead to one potential inclusion.

I would absolutely entertain the idea that spirits aren’t disconfirmations if someone proposed an argument, with evidence, that suggests it’s going to happen. I have seen nothing but hypothetical situations. But when I propose stuff based on actual precedent, actual evidence, I get hit with the invalid response of, “Lalalalalala fan rule fan rule fan rule”. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s a fan rule, and never have I passed it off as such.

It should also be noted that the function of spirits is quite different from trophies, and based on the way they are added to the game, I don’t know that trophies are a proper equivalent argument. That could be up for discussion.

It’s not impossible for spirit upgrades. I never said it was. I have said in the past that it seems unlikely to happen based on what I’ve read. It’s one thing to want something to happen, but wanting it or saying, “X character is popular!” Is not a strong piece of evidence in this case, at least for me.

Alas, I can continue this later. Some folks have made decent points, but again, hypothetical outcomes aren’t evidence of likelihood. Responding to a question, when the question is based on precedent, with a hypothetical such as, “Well Sakurai could” is not evidence and does not have the same gravitas. At least, as an English teacher, I feel that way, lol.

PS- I DO want to point out that the whole time Season 1 was a thing, I explicitly said that while I thought Pick 5 would be 3rd party, Astral Chain or Three Houses could be added as an exception to what I believed would be a lack of first parties.

I wasn’t wrong.

Thank you so much for this post.

Everytime I try and debate someone on Spirits, they always pull the “MUH FANRULE”, or “WELL SAKURAI COULD” card and they never give a counter argument to all of the potential evidence I give for Spirits deconfirming.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

On the topic of Spirit deconfirmations, right now I don't see any proof for Spirit upgrades. We know for a fact that we are getting the same content as FP1 being a character, stage, music and spirit board. Now the last bit is important because a ton of franchises already have their major supporting characters and villains as Spirits which would make it harder to pick new Spirits for a board. Lastly, Sakurai stated that Spirits are to help simulate battles from more series then ever before.

Right now as I see it Spirit upgrades are just fans blindly getting their hopes even though Season 1 gave us no such upgrades or proof despite the fact I know some of you people were predicting things like a Waluigi assist trophy upgrade.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

You're inferring things to support your belief.

This isn't any different from the people who used Sakurai and Reggie's "new worlds" comments to say we'd only get third-parties.

“In this mysterious world, the unspeakable happens: many beloved characters lose their physical forms. All of them, except the fighters, are turned into Spirits, unable to return to the real world"

And here are some other comments from the announcer and Nintendo Switch News.


“What’s this? Characters other than fighters? Must be SPIRITS!”

“You can’t play as a spirit, but you can equip them…”

Whether you like it or not, there is a clear distinction between Fighters and Spirits made.

And to quote a certain thread.

“Secondly, there’s a separation that goes deeper into the lore. Before stating that Spirits can’t return to the real world, Sakurai mentions how fighters are toys that want to get back to the real world. Spirits cannot do this, because they do not have a toy form that they can take in the real world. They are Spirits and not Fighters because they don’t have a body at all to return to. While Poké Balls and Assist Trophies have bodies, they cannot maintain those physical forms long enough to return the real world, since they despawn after a short period of time. Regardless, the divide between fighters and spirits is clear.”

Stuff like Three Houses not getting a Spirit event, Piranha Plant missing a Spirit, ect is just icing on the cake at this point.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

There's no point in debating Spirits because both sides lack any solid evidence. The best argument for Spirits being deconfirmations is "It's never happened before, so it's probably not happening at all." The best argument for Spirits not being deconfirmations is a lack of first-party options without Spirits and some blind optimism.

You can type up the most convincing, detailed essay imaginable explaining your stance on Spirits, but you could save everyone a lot of time by summarizing what you really mean. "It's my opinion that Spirits do/don't reconfirm characters."

Except literally all the evidence points towards Spirits Disconfirm if they were developed at the same time DLC was chosen. The base line argument for base game was that characters that were Spirits in the base game did not have a future role as more than that and thus all DLC fighters would come from non-Spirits. That 100% was the case with that first Fighter's Pass. Everyone who ever argued "Spirits Disconfirm for the Fighter's Pass" was correct in their argument. Precedence established through repeated trials of the same phenomenon is evidence.

Also, how are you arguing that "The best argument for Spirits not being disconfirmations is a lack of first-party options"? That's not a defense, like at all. That's a blind optimism in of itself that the future will contain fewer third parties and more first parties. First parties don't have to be in Volume 2 at all, so that's literally not even an argument for Spirits don't disconfirm in the first place.

Trying to portray the argument as "both sides lack any solid evidence" is naively dismissive of precedence at best. There's no way to definitively confirm that, "Spirits Disconfirm" but that doesn't inherently enable you to just say this is an entirely an opinion based matter and thus there's no use in talking about it. The lack of being able to find an absolute and definitive answer does not mean that there can't be evidence that indicates a certain reality.

I just feel like Scoliosis Jones brings up a good point. If you want to try to push back against those of us who argue Spirits disconfirm, I think a good many of us are more than willing to listen to a substantiated argument in favor of Spirit upgrades. Those arguments just have to be made first.

Edit: Also, consider that some people are arguing "Spirits designed at or around the time when DLC was being chosen indicate certain character options are out for that DLC" and others are arguing a more blanket "Spirits Disconfirm." There's a lot of nuance to that argument and one is more wildly encompassing than the other.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dude has been a sham forever, can anyone name something he got right? He got himself so hyped on Arle over speculation on Sakurai's pictures he was releasing on twitter. If anything I hope Sakurai and Nintendo continues to hide future characters like they did with Byleth to further prove that these "leakers" and "rumors" are false because they usually are.

I wouldn't call him a sham, since as far as I can tell he's not trying to be a leaker or anything. He just doesn't know much more than we do, but has a much larger platform.

Unpopular opinion, I know, but I think Banjo was the weakest of the fighters pass characters.
Banjo is lacking in everything:
>Less spirits
>Less overall music (insert muh remixes here even though Terry already mogs him)
>Worst stage
>Lackluster moveset
Good for the fans who wanted him, but the other characters have far more to offer imo.

Banjo & Kazooie brought more music with them than Hero did. Most of it sounds better too since they are mostly remixes. (Also comparing it to Terry's music selection isn't really fair since it's a huge outlier within the pass and likely will be for all DLC. EDIT: Considering Byleth and Joker bring 11 tracks with them I'd say that most characters are going to have about that number.) Calling Spiral Mountain the worst stage is a matter of opinion, but I'd argue it's got a lot more to offer than Gerreg Mach will. I will agree on it being the least accessible stage though.

Thank you so much for this post.

Everytime I try and debate someone on Spirits, they always pull the “MUH FANRULE”, or “WELL SAKURAI COULD” card and they never give a counter argument to all of the potential evidence I give for Spirits deconfirming.

Until it is officially confirmed, it is still a fan rule, and base game spirits should still be considered in speculation as there is no certainty of their disconfirmation. Or to put it another way, "probably not" is a perfectly sound argument, but "definitely not" isn't in my opinion.

 

[Kokiden]

No offense, but I'm not going to take the opinion of someone with a Joker avatar on whether Joker is OP or not.

I wasn't talking about being fun to play against. Obviously it's never fun to play against someone with a massive skill gap.

I'm talking about overly complicated characters aren't fun for lower skill players to play AS.

Fair point.

Personally I don’t think anyone in Ultimate is OP.

Results wise, only MKLeo and Zackray are the prominent and noteworthy Jokers. Others have tried and failed.

It’s why I think Joker is great, but not easy to get results with. For a character that good, it’s a good compromise. Never agreed with the “he’s OP” arguments I keep hearing.

Hmm, you may be right about the “overly complicated characters may not be fun to play as” part.

That being said, I don’t think every character should play the same. Style switching is just a unique gimmick so to speak. Whether they actually do this, or if Dante gets in or not, remains to be seen, so this is all just conjecture at this point.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

I don't think that's happening because Rayman is hated in Japan for some reason.

Do Westerns hate Momotaro or Pawapuro-kun?

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you so much for this post.

Everytime I try and debate someone on Spirits, they always pull the “MUH FANRULE”, or “WELL SAKURAI COULD” card and they never give a counter argument to all of the potential evidence I give for Spirits deconfirming.

while I think sprits are a no go you don’t have to be mean about it when someone brings up spirit upgrades

 

[nessdeltarune00]

I wouldn't call him a sham, since as far as I can tell he's not trying to be a leaker or anything. He just doesn't know much more than we do, but has a much larger platform.


Banjo & Kazooie brought more music with them than Hero did. Most of it sounds better too since they are mostly remixes. (Also comparing it to Terry's music selection isn't really fair since it's a huge outlier within the pass and likely will be for all DLC. EDIT: Considering Byleth and Joker bring 11 tracks with them I'd say that most characters are going to have about that number.) Calling Spiral Mountain the worst stage is a matter of opinion, but I'd argue it's got a lot more to offer than Gerreg Mach will. I will agree on it being the least accessible stage though.


Until it is officially confirmed, it is still a fan rule, and base game spirits should still be considered in speculation as there is no certainty of their disconfirmation. Or to put it another way, "probably not" is a perfectly sound argument, but "definitely not" isn't in my opinion.

Did you read my post above?

I gave quotes from Sakurai and other sources that heavily implicate Spirits deconfirming.

There is a clear distinction made with them, just like how in Smash 4 Sakurai made the distinction between Assists and playable characters.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Did you read my post above?

I gave quotes from Sakurai and other sources that heavily implicate Spirits deconfirming.

There is a clear distinction made with them, just like how in Smash 4 Sakurai made the distinction between Assists and playable characters.

Sakurai made a distinction between the Spirits and Fighters because he just confirmed that trophies weren't returning and that Spirits would be taking their place as the non fighter representative. And as we all know, Mewtwo and Lucas became DLC fighters after being trophies.

Piranha Plant doesn't have a Spirit because it was planned for base game.
Three Houses is part of the Season 1 DLC, so it was planned at the same time as the rest of the fighters pass. Fighter's Pass 2 was planned afterwards, so base game spirits are still easily on the table.

 

[slrigeigdew]

It should also noted that even if a Spirit was upgraded, it'd probably be the exception and not the rule. Meaning we'd still get 5 brand new fighters rather than a whole pass full of spirit upgrades as some people unironically believe.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I expected this place to be more open to different possibilities with how almost everyone got proven wrong someway or another during the previous fighters pass.

"Realistic guns cannot be depicted in Smash! Franchises with little to no appearances on Nintendo consoles aren't possible!"
"Too many copyrights! Series isn't as popular in the West!"
"Western character! Owned by a rival console!"
"Too niche! There are bigger franchises out there!"
"First party! It's from a franchise already represented in the game!" *insert Byleth icon here*


Relying on patterns has never been the most reliable way to speculate Smash, as most of them have been proven wrong one way or another. Do spirits deconfirm? The answer is nobody knows and it's up to the interpretation of the person. PR and vague statements have almost never benefited speculation, everyone thought the fighters pass was going to be only third party because of Reggie's PR statement and look where we are now. Hell, Sakurai went back on his own words multiple times, the man is human like the rest of us and isn't a robot with a single logical processor.

Taking things as absolutes is a mistake a lot of people make when it comes to speculating for Smash. I'm keeping both options on my mind, but it seems a lot of people in here are stuck with only one outcome they see as possible.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

I expected this place to be more open to different possibilities with how almost everyone got proven wrong someway or another during the previous fighters pass.

"Realistic guns cannot be depicted in Smash! Franchises with little to no appearances on Nintendo consoles aren't possible!"
"Too many copyrights! Series isn't as popular in the West!"
"Western character! Owned by a rival console!"
"Too niche! There are bigger franchises out there!"
"First party! It's from a franchise already represented in the game!" *insert Byleth icon here*


Relying on patterns has never been the most reliable way to speculate Smash, as most of them have been proven wrong one way or another. Do spirits deconfirm? The answer is nobody knows and it's up to the interpretation of the person. PR and vague statements have almost never benefited speculation, everyone thought the fighters pass was going to be only third party because of Reggie's PR statement and look where we are now. Hell, Sakurai went back on his own words multiple times, the man is human like the rest of us and isn't a robot with a single logical processor.

Taking things as absolutes is a mistake a lot of people make when it comes to speculating for Smash. I'm keeping both options on my mind, but it seems a lot of people in here are stuck with only one outcome they see as possible.

Instead of strawmanning every argument that people who believe Spirits deconfirm has as a “fanrule” along everything you mentioned despite there being legitimate evidence behind it, some counter arguments would be nice.

 

[Cosmic77]

Except literally all the evidence points towards Spirits Disconfirm if they were developed at the same time DLC was chosen. The base line argument for base game was that characters that were Spirits in the base game did not have a future role as more than that and thus all DLC fighters would come from non-Spirits. That 100% was the case with that first Fighter's Pass. Everyone who ever argued "Spirits Disconfirm for the Fighter's Pass" was correct in their argument. Precedence established through repeated trials of the same phenomenon is evidence.

Also, how are you arguing that "The best argument for Spirits not being disconfirmations is a lack of first-party options"? That's not a defense, like at all. That's a blind optimism in of itself that the future will contain fewer third parties and more first parties. First parties don't have to be in Volume 2 at all, so that's literally not even an argument for Spirits don't disconfirm in the first place.

Trying to portray the argument as "both sides lack any solid evidence" is naively dismissive of precedence at best. There's no way to definitively confirm that, "Spirits Disconfirm" but that doesn't inherently enable you to just say this is an entirely an opinion based matter and thus there's no use in talking about it. The lack of being able to find an absolute and definitive answer does not mean that there can't be evidence that indicates a certain reality.

I just feel like Scoliosis Jones brings up a good point. If you want to try to push back against those of us who argue Spirits disconfirm, I think a good many of us are more than willing to listen to a substantiated argument in favor of Spirit upgrades. Those arguments just have to be made first.

Edit: Also, consider that some people are arguing "Spirits designed at or around the time when DLC was being chosen indicate certain character options are out for that DLC" and others are arguing a more blanket "Spirits Disconfirm." There's a lot of nuance to that argument and one is more wildly encompassing than the other.

The argument people are making for "Spirits deconfirm" seems identical to what people have done with "all third-parties." People pushed back against those who suggested we'd get a first-party because the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fighter were third-party. There was "precedence" - it happened several times before, so people picked up on a pattern. That pattern ended up being wrong.

So yes, I do believe both sides struggle to make a convincing case. "Spirits deconfirm" has lived longer than "all third-parties", but ultimately, the former could easily be proven wrong at any moment. Again, even if none of the characters in the first pass had a Spirit, the whole foundation for the argument is based on a pattern of "it hasn't happened before, and Sakurai wouldn't do this because...". Historically, that's never been the best supporting evidence for an argument.

People are free to pick a side, but I don't feel like anyone has provided any substantial evidence. Yeah, perhaps I am being too skeptical here, but after the community ended up being dead wrong about third-parties and "Capcom or Namco are probably next," I'm not rushing to a conclusion.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Did you read my post above?

I gave quotes from Sakurai and other sources that heavily implicate Spirits deconfirming.

There is a clear distinction made with them, just like how in Smash 4 Sakurai made the distinction between Assists and playable characters.

Lore speculation, while interesting, is not clear evidence. For all we know they could just make up a reason as to why a spirit is now a fighter like they found a body to inhabit or this particular spirit of this character has a body, or just not give a reason at all because it doesn't really matter. The lore isn't really anything but motifs at this point. For there to be a concrete disconfirmation we'll need something more like (paraphrasing) "Waluigi is joining the battle as an Assist Trophy! Naturally, this means he will not be playable."

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There's no point in debating Spirits because both sides lack any solid evidence. The best argument for Spirits being deconfirmations is "It's never happened before, so it's probably not happening at all." The best argument for Spirits not being deconfirmations is a lack of first-party options without Spirits and some blind optimism.

You can type up the most convincing, detailed essay imaginable explaining your stance on Spirits, but you could save everyone a lot of time by summarizing what you really mean. "It's my opinion that Spirits do/don't deconfirm characters."

I would like to point out that I wrote the “essay” (not sure if that’s an implied offhand comment/insult, but whatever) because I was providing reasons for why I believe what I believe. Sure, it’s an “opinion”. But it’s an opinion based on evidence.

That isn’t always what happens here.

If you really think I’m just typing an “essay” to express my opinion, then I’m afraid you missed the entire point of it.

For the record, while I thought for sure we’d get all 3rd parties, I left the door open to Astral Chain and Three Houses as exceptions to that.

Let’s give credit where it’s due. The person making The Spirit Argument never entirely ruled out First Parties, and I still wouldn’t, and I at the very least don’t see Spirit upgrades as an impossibility.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

Its January 2022, the final DLC fighter for Smash Ultimate has been released a month pior and Smash Boards will still find a way to debate about Spirits being upgraded.

 

[RileyXY1]

My stance is that base game Spirits don't deconfirm, but DLC Spirits do.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Won’t lie, the whole Spirit debate is reminding me of the Ridley shadow thing from Smash 4.

Despite there being all of the evidence in the world against it, there are still a ton of people who think that it means absolutely nothing against their most wanted. Just like with the Ridley shadow situation (funny enough, they actually thought this confirmed Ridley, so maybe it isn’t a good comparison).

 

[Animegamingnerd]

Won’t lie, the whole Spirit debate is reminding me of the Ridley shadow thing from Smash 4.

Despite there being all of the evidence in the world against it, there are still a ton of people who think that it means absolutely nothing against their most wanted. Just like with the Ridley shadow situation (funny enough, they actually thought this confirmed Ridley, so maybe it isn’t a good comparison).

Hardcore denial does weird things to people that makes you to think they came from an alternate reality.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest, I feel like at this rate, the Spirit debate isn't going anywhere at all. I mean, this has been discussed since what, like early 2018 pre-release? And it's not leading us anywhere.

I know some of their most-wanteds are Spirits but...maybe we should accept that Sakurai recognizes them rather than being ignored.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Instead of strawmanning every argument that people who believe Spirits deconfirm has as a “fanrule” along everything you mentioned despite there being legitimate evidence behind it, some counter arguments would be nice.

What's the evidence? Sakurai's vague statements where he differentiated between spirits and fighters because they were a new concept introduced in Ultimate? Or do you mean the pattern of "there were no spirits playable in the first fighters pass so that means there will be no spirits playable in the second fighters pass"?

Neither of these two points are strong evidence for why we won't get a spirit promoted as DLC. The second fighters pass was decided after the base game was released, the main reasoning why people believed spirits couldn't be promoted for the first fighters pass is because it was decided during the base game development. The only things that are truly deconfirmed are the mii costumes and spirits that were released as DLC. Timing is the main argument for why spirits can't be playable, and not just because they are PNG images.

 

[Dukefire]

we came a long way on speculation for who is coming next to Super Smash Bros.

 

[Pinguino21v]

The next DLC fighter will be Tanya from Command & Conquer: Red Alert.

Don't quote me.

 

[I.D.]

Now, it’s not a rule that this will “absolutely, positively” play out this way. But this idea? The fact that previous evidence suggests another potential outcome? There’s stuff out there, like the things I mentioned, that lead to one potential inclusion.

I would absolutely entertain the idea that spirits aren’t disconfirmations if someone proposed an argument, with evidence, that suggests it’s going to happen. I have seen nothing but hypothetical situations. But when I propose stuff based on actual precedent, actual evidence, I get hit with the invalid response of, “Lalalalalala fan rule fan rule fan rule”. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s a fan rule, and never have I passed it off as such.

It should also be noted that the function of spirits is quite different from trophies, and based on the way they are added to the game, I don’t know that trophies are a proper equivalent argument. That could be up for discussion.

It’s not impossible for spirit upgrades. I never said it was. I have said in the past that it seems unlikely to happen based on what I’ve read. It’s one thing to want something to happen, but wanting it or saying, “X character is popular!” Is not a strong piece of evidence in this case, at least for me.

Alas, I can continue this later. Some folks have made decent points, but again, hypothetical outcomes aren’t evidence of likelihood. Responding to a question, when the question is based on precedent, with a hypothetical such as, “Well Sakurai could” is not evidence and does not have the same gravitas. At least, as an English teacher, I feel that way, lol.

What kind of evidence are you expecting, if you don't mind the question?

 

[Gamma Ray]

Despite there being all of the evidence in the world against it, there are still a ton of people who think that it means absolutely nothing against their most wanted.

I'm sorry but "all the evidence in the world" is a massive stretch. There was more evidence suggesting FP#5 would be third party, and we all know how that went.

 

[Dukefire]

No matter how much "evidence" people gather, Sakurai always has a way to throw those information out the window in an instant. This is just unknown waters that can only travel safely by enduring the worst to come.

 

[Deleted member]

"Realistic guns cannot be depicted in Smash! Franchises with little to no appearances on Nintendo consoles aren't possible!"
"Western character! Owned by a rival console!"

Here’s how Master Chief can still win...

 

[nessdeltarune00]

The argument people are making for "Spirits deconfirm" seems identical to what people have done with "all third-parties." People pushed back against those who suggested we'd get a first-party because the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fighter were third-party. There was "precedence" - it happened several times before, so people picked up on a pattern. That pattern ended up being wrong.

So yes, I do believe both sides struggle to make a convincing case. "Spirits deconfirm" has lived longer than "all third-parties", but ultimately, the former could easily be proven wrong at any moment. Again, even if none of the characters in the first pass had a Spirit, the whole foundation for the argument is based on a pattern of "it hasn't happened before, and Sakurai wouldn't do this because...". Historically, that's never been the best supporting evidence for an argument.

People are free to pick a side, but I don't feel like anyone has provided any substantial evidence. Yeah, perhaps I am being too skeptical here, but after the community ended up being dead wrong about third-parties and "Capcom or Namco are probably next," I'm not rushing to a conclusion.

I’m sorry that your most wanted got Galeem blasted, but I have given as much evidence I could as to why I firmly believe that they do deconfirm. It is soley on you whether or not you choose to plug your ears and pretend that the evidence doesn’t exist.

But just to make it clear as day, here is all of the evidence that likely points to Spirits deconfirming.

>Comments made by Sakurai and other reps of Nintendo, as pointed out above
>Piranha Plant conveniently was one of the Mario enemies that didn’t get a Spirit before release.
>Three Houses also conveniently was one of the big releases that didn’t get a Spirit event, while Pokemon Sword/Shield, Astral Chain, ect did.
>Spanning back to Smash 4, all DLC newcomers have been either third parties or shill picks. Now tell me, what are conveniently the only options left assuming that Spirits do deconfirm?

Each of it on its own is a hit against Spirit promotions. However, put it all together, and it tells me that when a character is made a Spirit, it means that they likely have no plans or interest to make them playable anytime soon.

Highly recommend those who are still on the fence to read this. (Though the beginning with Reggies comments is outdated, all the rest of the points still stand)

https://smashboards.com/threads/why-spirits-do-deconfirm-dlc-fighters.476170/

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I find it funny that people say it "wouldn't make sense" for a character to fight their own spirit and it would "go against the lore" and that's why the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies in Smash 4 don't matter because SpIrIts aRe ImpORtanT to ThE LoRE when there are literally Kirby clone battles in World of Light despite the fact that he never got captured, SMH.

No seriously, how on earth is that supposed to work? That's a plot hole bigger than the one in Kirby's stomach.

 

[Deleted member]

Here’s how Master Chief can still win...

That's the Smash community for ya. Always whining about everything that isn't what they want. I'm guilty of this, so don't call me innocent.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

I'm sorry but "all the evidence in the world" is a massive stretch. There was more evidence suggesting FP#5 would be third party, and we all know how that went.

What's the evidence? Sakurai's vague statements where he differentiated between spirits and fighters because they were a new concept introduced in Ultimate? Or do you mean the pattern of "there were no spirits playable in the first fighters pass so that means there will be no spirits playable in the second fighters pass"?

Neither of these two points are strong evidence for why we won't get a spirit promoted as DLC. The second fighters pass was decided after the base game was released, the main reasoning why people believed spirits couldn't be promoted for the first fighters pass is because it was decided during the base game development. The only things that are truly deconfirmed are the mii costumes and spirits that were released as DLC. Timing is the main argument for why spirits can't be playable, and not just because they are PNG images.

I laid it all out for you to see just now. (Though I probably was a bit hyperbolic)

 

[Mushroomguy12]

>Piranha Plant conveniently was one of the Mario enemies that didn’t get a Spirit before release.

>Three Houses also conveniently was one of the big releases that didn’t get a Spirit event, while Pokemon Sword/Shield, Astral Chain, ect did.

Piranha Plant was also conveniently the only DLC character to get a Palutena's Guidance. Like I said before, that most likely points to it being planned for base game. Three Houses was also part of Season 1 DLC and thus doesn't really have an impact on Season 2 and beyond, when we talk about base game spirits.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I find it funny that people say it "wouldn't make sense" for a character to fight their own spirit and it would "go against the lore" and that's why the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies in Smash 4 don't matter because SpIrIts aRe ImpORtanT to ThE LoRE when there are literally Kirby clone battles in World of Light despite the fact that he never got captured, SMH.

No seriously, how on earth is that supposed to work? That's a plot hole bigger than the one in Kirby's stomach.

I think Sakurai said something along the lines of Kirby being easy to copy without capturing him or something

 

[Cosmic77]

I find it funny that people say it "wouldn't make sense" for a character to fight their own spirit and it would "go against the lore" and that's why the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies in Smash 4 don't matter because SpIrIts aRe ImpORtanT to ThE LoRE when there are literally Kirby clone battles in World of Light despite the fact that he never got captured, SMH.

No seriously, how on earth is that supposed to work? That's a plot hole bigger than the one in Kirby's stomach.

Keeby is still out there somewhere, waiting for the day when someone rescues him.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

No matter how much "evidence" people gather, Sakurai always has a way to throw those information out the window in an instant. This is just unknown waters that can only travel safely by enduring the worst to come.

Do you have any counter arguments besides “W-WELL SAKURAI COULD!!!!” for anything that is presented as hits against Spirits?

Because that, and plugging your ears and screaming “FAN RULE FAN RULE FAN RULE” is all I have seen from thte pro Spirit camp. Its kind of funny how predictable it is at this point

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I think Sakurai said something along the lines of Kirby being easy to copy without capturing him or something

Source? Not doubting you but don't remember that.

 

[Deleted member]

All this talk about spirit promotions and fanrules make me imagine the possibility of Sakurai going back on saying characters like Goku or Iron Man won't be in Smash because the "4th Party Character" thing is also a fanrule; it just hasn't been broken yet. It won't happen anyways, but adding a non-video game character would mark a definitive end to any sort of rules, whether if they're made up or official, in regards to adding a character to Smash.

 

[Krankees]

I'm just gonna wait until Vol. 2 is done. If any spirits get upgraded by then, cool. If not, that sucks.

 

[Dukefire]

Do you have any counter arguments besides “W-WELL SAKURAI COULD!!!!” for anything that is presented as hits against Spirits?

Because that, and plugging your ears and screaming “FAN RULE FAN RULE FAN RULE” is all I have seen from thte pro Spirit camp. Its kind of funny how predictable it is at this point

Honestly, I don't have anything else since after Season 1 is finished and Season 2 starting soon