Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[MooMew64]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

Glad the plant exists, at least.

(you can use this as a copypasta if you want, this post is purposely designed to become one).

I mean, I'd say Inkling was a pretty unique newcomer...

Heck, I'd say most of Ultimate's newcomers stand out really well.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

He mentioned the date 1/16 right?

Yep

Along with 1/30 and 2/13

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While you are correct, it still demonstrates leniency on Nintendo and Namco’s part for the character to be depicted less than accurately.

Not really, no.

That solely works for a costume and nothing else. You also forget that he was depicted holding a Beam Sword in the previews, having still two swords in hand overall. They still care about the double sword motif, which is his unique playstyle. Only certain liberties can be taken for a costume.

It has nothing to do with a proper character. They're still completely different situations to begin with. Lloyd is pretty much guaranteed to come with two swords if he's a playable character. That's literally his core character. A costume reference to him is not the core character. This isn't even like clones/etc. who take more liberties. But even those still have their core parts. Richter and Simon are still core whip users. Ken uses his core abilities. They're not all that lenient on 3rd parties as is, who they have been known for having terrible costumes in most cases. You could say that Hero is perhaps the most allowed variant of a 3rd party ever, and that was even lucky on its own that it happened. It shouldn't be expected among other 3rd parties to do something very unexpected either.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

People always mention the race being Yuri vs Lloyd, but watch the "Tales of news" the NoA source talked about be a port of Tales of Beseria to switch and then Velvet being added to smash to advertise that game like Eleven was (assuming they can deal with her... well design issue).

Aw **** I might end up buying Berseria twice. Then again the Steam version was heavily discounted and if it means we get this sad **** some goddamn trousers and a shirt that'd be cool

 

[DarthEnderX]

Bah, this thread is back to moving to fast to stay caught up on...

 

[MBRedboy31]

Not really, no.

That solely works for a costume and nothing else. You also forget that he was depicted holding a Beam Sword in the previews, having still two swords in hand overall. They still care about the double sword motif, which is his unique playstyle. Only certain liberties can be taken for a costume.

It has nothing to do with a proper character. They're still completely different situations to begin with. Lloyd is pretty much guaranteed to come with two swords if he's a playable character. That's literally his core character. A costume reference to him is not the core character. This isn't even like clones/etc. who take more liberties. But even those still have their core parts. Richter and Simon are still core whip users. Ken uses his core abilities. They're not all that lenient on 3rd parties as is, who they have been known for having terrible costumes in most cases. You could say that Hero is perhaps the most allowed variant of a 3rd party ever, and that was even lucky on its own that it happened. It shouldn't be expected among other 3rd parties to do something very unexpected either.

Well, to take the alt conversation somewhere else, would it be possible to devise a reasonably accurate looking moveset where there is no difference between the character holding one sword or two?

For example, in a normal consisting of a sword sweep, if the character swings both swords right next to each other in the same arc, wouldn’t it work basically the same if one of the character’s hands were empty? For a spin slash, couldn’t they spin fast enough for there to not be a difference in hitboxes between one sword or two?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well, to take the alt conversation somewhere else, would it be possible to devise a reasonably accurate looking moveset where there is no difference between the character holding one sword or two?

For example, in a normal consisting of a sword sweep, if the character swings both swords right next to each other in the same arc, wouldn’t it work basically the same if one of the character’s hands were empty? For a spin slash, couldn’t they spin fast enough for there to not be a difference in hitboxes between one sword or two?

The end result would end up alienating fans of the alt due to it not fitting their fighting style or end up adding up a crapton of time to animate the alt, and alts don't get different animations

 

[RouffWestie]

I'm disappointed that Pac-Man's Namco roulette taunt didn't include a Cress sprite going, "Yatta!"

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

The best alt for Lloyd would be Guy from Tales of the Abyss, but he's not the main dude and would still probably be better as an echo.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yep

Along with 1/30 and 2/13

2/13 might be the proper release date of FP5. Dunno what 1/30 would be though

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Imagine Sakurai added Naoto Shirogane in smash insted of Joker pff

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

​

Spoiler: Professor Layton

View attachment 256220

Level-5's omission from Smash so far is actually rather odd, given Level-5's large support of Nintendo since the DS era with their Professor Layton, Yo-kai Watch, and Inazuma Eleven series', with them even bringing their other major IP, Nino no Kuni to the Switch in 2019 (there was also a Japan-exclusive DS release in 2013). Similar to Square Enix and Dragon Quest, Nintendo's even picked up publishing of their games worldwide, doing so with both the Professor Layton and Yokai Watch series. Pretty much all of their series are notable in some way, with Yo-kai Watch dominating Japan from 2013-2016. It was considered a "Pokémon Killer," outpacing the series in merchandising and anime, and netting Namco Bandai a lot of yen (think tens of millions) off of toy sales. Level-5's IPs have spawned 3 different anime franchises, with each getting at least one full-feature anime movie (Layton has 1, Inazuma Eleven has 4, and Yo-kai Watch has 5; Nino-no-kuni does not have a series, but has spawned two anime movies). You could say that Level-5's series are more media franchises, spanning multiple mediums, than game series contained within one media. Considering the popularity of their IPs and the relationship they have with Nintendo, a Level-5 character makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.

So then, the question is: Why Professor Layton? If this were Sm4sh DLC or Ultimate base speculation I'd tell you he didn't have a chance compared to Jibanyan, but Yo-kai Watch is kinda dead now, and the Layton series is still very much living, with a deluxe edition of the most recent game just releasing last November. Furthermore, Layton's legacy with Nintendo makes him a stronger contender in my opinion. Professor Layton games were a defining hallmark of the DS generation, garnering strong, positive reception for their challenging puzzles and managing to sell 11.47 million units worldwide by 2011. In 2013 this number has turned into 15 million, and by 17 million by 2018. At the very least, this shows Layton's status as one of the DS' stronger series. This is further corroborated by the fact that Layton still stands among Nintendo's first-party franchises on Nintendo UK's Nintendo Characters Hub page (alongside fellow Level-5 series Inazuma Eleven and Phoenix Wright). Speaking of the United Kingdom and Europe, Layton is incredibly popular there. Iwata (RIP) admits in an interview that Curious Village did so well that it "surprised" Nintendo with its European success, and a 2009 interview with Level-5 CEO Akihiro Hino states something similar (we'll return to this interview). Considering that Europe is largely who got us Bayonetta from the Ballot, they're clearly not a demographic to be underestimated.

Sidenote, but man do we really underestimate Europe. It's always the US and Japan in speculation, but rarely ever Europe. We gotta talk about them and what they want more since it's clearly a large demographic for both Nintendo and Smash Bros.

In regards to the potential for Layton in Smash Bros. specifically, it's something Hino has been approached about multiple times actually. In a 2008 panel that both Hino and Sakurai attended, a moderator talked about how they wanted Layton in Smash, to which both laughed. At the very least, Layton has been on Sakurai's radar for years now. Returning to that 2009 interview, he said this when asked about Layton in Smash:

When asked about it again in a 2017 interview, he said this:

Hino knows about Smash, and I believe he, like every other game developer, recognizes the advertising effect of the series. Given the opportunity, I believe he'd want to push Layton since he's said it's his favorite Level-5 property in a 2016 Forbes interview (at the height of Yo-kai Watch's popularity):

Layton makes more sense than Jibanyan for this reason alongside the solid amount of support he seemed to have in the Ballot era, with semi-prominent Youtubers RabbidLuigi and AceStarThe3rd voicing support for him among others.

Not necessarily related, but Layton has a significant female audience too, with a 2012 poll of 6,729 players revealing that 51% of players were female. Layton could have a very specific appeal to European, female, and casual demographics that could allow him to get in over other picks.

All of this is great and all, but my question after looking at all this is Why isn't Layton (or Jibanyan for that matter) in Smash already?
You would think given the strength of Level-5's IPs alongside their size as a company and positive relationship with Nintendo that a Level-5 character would already be in Smash by now, especially when requests for Layton specifically date back to 2008. I can only come up with two explanations that hold up to Occam's Razor:

1. For some reason Level-5 has previously rejected attempts to include their characters in Smash, or
2. Their series haven't been previously considered due to being overshadowed by existing franchises

I'm going to assume the latter, as Level-5 doesn't seem to be too difficult to work with, and given that Sakurai and Hino have appeared at panels together, the two must hold a good working relationship at the very least.

As we continue adding third party franchises, I'd say that relatively smaller series like Layton have a better chance of inclusion. So hold out hope everyone, the solution to the puzzle of Layton in Smash might just appear.

Back to work I go!

Nice Read!

A few things though, I think you made a mistake when you said that it netted Bandai-Namco a lot of yen, I think you meant to say Level-5 there. Also Nino-no-Kuni has a series, the sequel came out in 2018.


I'm glad you mentioned how popular the series is an Europe, I think some times we simplify it to just East and West in speculation, but Nintendo primarily sees NA, EU, and JP as it's regions of focus. I think Europe as a market region is far too overlooked.

The Layton series has had a pretty significant relationship with Nintendo, all the games staring Professor Layton were published by Nintendo in the west, and recently the Layton series along with Ace Attorney were the go to examples for successful adventure games when asked in an investor's Q&A about adventure games, so the series is still in the minds of the higher ups at Nintendo in some form.

 

[MBRedboy31]

The end result would end up alienating fans of the alt due to it not fitting their fighting style or end up adding up a crapton of time to animate the alt, and alts don't get different animations

The idea is that they have exactly the same animations, just that one of them has only one sword on the model rather than two, but the animations were designed such that it looks good either way.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

7 Characters to Look Out For in Ultimate DLC (III)
By tehponycorn​

Spoiler: Professor Layton

View attachment 256220

Level-5's omission from Smash so far is actually rather odd, given Level-5's large support of Nintendo since the DS era with their Professor Layton, Yo-kai Watch, and Inazuma Eleven series', with them even bringing their other major IP, Nino no Kuni to the Switch in 2019 (there was also a Japan-exclusive DS release in 2013). Similar to Square Enix and Dragon Quest, Nintendo's even picked up publishing of their games worldwide, doing so with both the Professor Layton and Yokai Watch series. Pretty much all of their series are notable in some way, with Yo-kai Watch dominating Japan from 2013-2016. It was considered a "Pokémon Killer," outpacing the series in merchandising and anime, and netting Namco Bandai a lot of yen (think tens of millions) off of toy sales. Level-5's IPs have spawned 3 different anime franchises, with each getting at least one full-feature anime movie (Layton has 1, Inazuma Eleven has 4, and Yo-kai Watch has 5; Nino-no-kuni does not have a series, but has spawned two anime movies). You could say that Level-5's series are more media franchises, spanning multiple mediums, than game series contained within one media. Considering the popularity of their IPs and the relationship they have with Nintendo, a Level-5 character makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.

So then, the question is: Why Professor Layton? If this were Sm4sh DLC or Ultimate base speculation I'd tell you he didn't have a chance compared to Jibanyan, but Yo-kai Watch is kinda dead now, and the Layton series is still very much living, with a deluxe edition of the most recent game just releasing last November. Furthermore, Layton's legacy with Nintendo makes him a stronger contender in my opinion. Professor Layton games were a defining hallmark of the DS generation, garnering strong, positive reception for their challenging puzzles and managing to sell 11.47 million units worldwide by 2011. In 2013 this number has turned into 15 million, and by 17 million by 2018. At the very least, this shows Layton's status as one of the DS' stronger series. This is further corroborated by the fact that Layton still stands among Nintendo's first-party franchises on Nintendo UK's Nintendo Characters Hub page (alongside fellow Level-5 series Inazuma Eleven and Phoenix Wright). Speaking of the United Kingdom and Europe, Layton is incredibly popular there. Iwata (RIP) admits in an interview that Curious Village did so well that it "surprised" Nintendo with its European success, and a 2009 interview with Level-5 CEO Akihiro Hino states something similar (we'll return to this interview). Considering that Europe is largely who got us Bayonetta from the Ballot, they're clearly not a demographic to be underestimated.

Sidenote, but man do we really underestimate Europe. It's always the US and Japan in speculation, but rarely ever Europe. We gotta talk about them and what they want more since it's clearly a large demographic for both Nintendo and Smash Bros.

In regards to the potential for Layton in Smash Bros. specifically, it's something Hino has been approached about multiple times actually. In a 2008 panel that both Hino and Sakurai attended, a moderator talked about how they wanted Layton in Smash, to which both laughed. At the very least, Layton has been on Sakurai's radar for years now. Returning to that 2009 interview, he said this when asked about Layton in Smash:

When asked about it again in a 2017 interview, he said this:

Hino knows about Smash, and I believe he, like every other game developer, recognizes the advertising effect of the series. Given the opportunity, I believe he'd want to push Layton since he's said it's his favorite Level-5 property in a 2016 Forbes interview (at the height of Yo-kai Watch's popularity):

Layton makes more sense than Jibanyan for this reason alongside the solid amount of support he seemed to have in the Ballot era, with semi-prominent Youtubers RabbidLuigi and AceStarThe3rd voicing support for him among others.

Not necessarily related, but Layton has a significant female audience too, with a 2012 poll of 6,729 players revealing that 51% of players were female. Layton could have a very specific appeal to European, female, and casual demographics that could allow him to get in over other picks.

All of this is great and all, but my question after looking at all this is Why isn't Layton (or Jibanyan for that matter) in Smash already?
You would think given the strength of Level-5's IPs alongside their size as a company and positive relationship with Nintendo that a Level-5 character would already be in Smash by now, especially when requests for Layton specifically date back to 2008. I can only come up with two explanations that hold up to Occam's Razor:

1. For some reason Level-5 has previously rejected attempts to include their characters in Smash, or
2. Their series haven't been previously considered due to being overshadowed by existing franchises

I'm going to assume the latter, as Level-5 doesn't seem to be too difficult to work with, and given that Sakurai and Hino have appeared at panels together, the two must hold a good working relationship at the very least.

As we continue adding third party franchises, I'd say that relatively smaller series like Layton have a better chance of inclusion. So hold out hope everyone, the solution to the puzzle of Layton in Smash might just appear.

Hell yeah spread the word of Prof Layton

 

[ZelDan]

This Yuri alt business gives me flashbacks to when people thought Rex could be a suitable Shulk clone.

Really astounds me how much people don't understand echoes or how far people will stretch for clone ideas. One of the worst examples of this that comes to memory for me is people that seriously thought Banjo & Kazooie could be a Duck Hunt Echo.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

The idea is that they have exactly the same animations, just that one of them has only one sword on the model rather than two, but the animations were designed such that it looks good either way.

I think the big problem is that Yuri wouldn't be Yuri if you did that. His Big draw animation-wise is that he's ambidexterous, acrobatic, and swings his sword in ways you probably shouldn't (in one of his moves he kicks his sword to make it spin). Lloyd's a lot more tame in how he attacks.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Nice Read!

A few things though, I think you made a mistake when you said that it netted Bandai-Namco a lot of yen, I think you meant to say Level-5 there. Also Nino-no-Kuni has a series, the sequel came out in 2018.


I'm glad you mentioned how popular the series is an Europe, I think some times we simplify it to just East and West in speculation, but Nintendo primarily sees NA, EU, and JP as it's regions of focus. I think Europe as a market region is far too overlooked.

The Layton series has had a pretty significant relationship with Nintendo, all the games staring Professor Layton were published by Nintendo in the west, and recently the Layton series along with Ace Attorney were the go to examples for successful adventure games when asked in an investor's Q&A about adventure games, so the series is still in the minds of the higher ups at Nintendo in some form.

The bit on Bandai-Namco relates to toy sales alone, which Bandai-Namco apparently handled. I'm sure Level 5 did make a lot of money off of other media, however. I'm going based off of their 2018 Financial Holdings Report. The point on Nino-no-Kuni is a good correction, and I appreciate the additional evidence. I'd add it right now but I'm burnt out on speculation rn. Who knew writing three speculation essays in a row would do that, huh?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Why argue about Echos when there's Gooigi in the world? There should be no arguments.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Really astounds me how much people don't understand echoes or how far people will stretch for clone ideas. One of the worst examples of this that comes to memory for me is people that seriously thought Banjo & Kazooie could be a Duck Hunt Echo.

I mean, it’s more fun to discuss how far the idea of alts and echoes can be stretched (even if they are admittedly extremely unlikely), rather than to just dismiss it.

 

[MooMew64]

Why argue about Echos when there's Gooigi in the world? There should be no arguments.

Ah, finally, someone else who is enlightened.

Gooigi will come soon enough, he just really wants us to see some more Pokemon first.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, it’s more fun to discuss how far the idea of alts and echoes can be stretched (even if they are admittedly extremely unlikely), rather than to just dismiss it.

Think of it like this for alts; they're exactly like echoes in a way. They need to have the same bodyshape for it to work. That's why Alph and the Koopalings worked. That includes any weapons too. They need something very similar enough to be adjusted to fit the mold. Taunts aren't a big deal whatsoever, but other animations are. Even Echoes can have some extra animations, but need to be extremely similar in general. If one uses a single sword, and one uses two swords, they already have a very extreme difference in their abilities.

Something that feels a lot more likely in this case would be alt colors inspired by other characters who couldn't be a proper skin. We have this quite often for those with different bodyshapes at times. Take the Wario-based colors Mario has had, same with the Waluigi-based colors that Mario and Luigi have. He can't work as a skin, but as an alt color referencing it it works pretty well.

Even Ken is still extremely similar to Ryu despite being rather unique(and enough that he didn't have to have the Echo label. Of course, Dr. Mario actually is close enough to be an Echo otherwise. Funny that).

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

 

[N3ON]

Even Ken is still extremely similar to Ryu despite being rather unique(and enough that he didn't have to have the Echo label. Of course, Dr. Mario actually is close enough to be an Echo otherwise. Funny that).

It's funny how they only gave the echo label to clones people might've otherwise complained about.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

Glad the plant exists, at least.

(you can use this as a copypasta if you want, this post is purposely designed to become one).

If you're talking about the characters themselves, we got Inklings, Ridley, and K. Rool. Those were three characters the fanbase had practically been begging for. I honestly don't know how Sakurai could top that.

If you're referring to movesets, I actually like the simplicity of them. Smash 4 gave us so many gimmicky characters that relied on some type of special ability, and most of them were just annoying as heck to fight against. It's nice that a lot of Ultimate's base roster newcomers don't require a power meter or some kind of special magic.

 

[Curious Villager]

7 Characters to Look Out For in Ultimate DLC (III)
By tehponycorn​

Previously: Don-chan, 2B
This time:

Spoiler: Acknowledgements/Notes

• As always, I'll check my bias at the door. I actually haven't played Layton or Fortnite. I guess I played a bit of Layton back when I was like, 9 and disliked it because my poor 9 year old brain didn't have the attention span to handle it. I only really know Fortnite because of the memes, and I've jokingly offered to play it with friends, but never have. Little to no bias here.
• Thanks to @Ayumi Tachibana for helping this argument with his translations. Keep up the great work!
• I feel the need to repeat that leaks or rumors since those aren't speculation, and hearsay should not be used in place of actual evidence. I feel the need to say this given how speculation seems centered on such nowadays.

Spoiler: Background - Beyond Nintendo

Smash Bros. is a celebration of gaming. Having grown beyond its humble origins as a Nintendo crossover, it's scope extends far beyond one single company, drawing in famous characters from a variety of companies.

"But tehponycorn!" you say, "Smash Bros. is about Nintendo first!" To which I respond with this 2018 statement from Sakurai:


With this established, in regards to Smash speculation, the sky is the limit. So long as they originate from a video game, they could realistically be in Smash Bros. So then the question I pose is: why do we stick to the same old echoed characters? Time and time again the Smash fanbase has speculated around characters only to be blindsided by picks like Joker, Hero, and Terry. These picks make sense in hindsight, yet prior to their inclusion were supported by a certain few who were laughed off until they were right, at which point these characters were seen as "obvious." In writing this essay I hope to pop the Smash Bubble for a bit and broaden the horizons of speculation. A lofty goal that I'll probably be laughed at for, but I figured I'd try nonetheless.

Spoiler: Professor Layton

View attachment 256220

Level-5's omission from Smash so far is actually rather odd, given Level-5's large support of Nintendo since the DS era with their Professor Layton, Yo-kai Watch, and Inazuma Eleven series', with them even bringing their other major IP, Nino no Kuni to the Switch in 2019 (there was also a Japan-exclusive DS release in 2013). Similar to Square Enix and Dragon Quest, Nintendo's even picked up publishing of their games worldwide, doing so with both the Professor Layton and Yokai Watch series. Pretty much all of their series are notable in some way, with Yo-kai Watch dominating Japan from 2013-2016. It was considered a "Pokémon Killer," outpacing the series in merchandising and anime, and netting Namco Bandai a lot of yen (think tens of millions) off of toy sales. Level-5's IPs have spawned 3 different anime franchises, with each getting at least one full-feature anime movie (Layton has 1, Inazuma Eleven has 4, and Yo-kai Watch has 5; Nino-no-kuni does not have a series, but has spawned two anime movies). You could say that Level-5's series are more media franchises, spanning multiple mediums, than game series contained within one media. Considering the popularity of their IPs and the relationship they have with Nintendo, a Level-5 character makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.

So then, the question is: Why Professor Layton? If this were Sm4sh DLC or Ultimate base speculation I'd tell you he didn't have a chance compared to Jibanyan, but Yo-kai Watch is kinda dead now, and the Layton series is still very much living, with a deluxe edition of the most recent game just releasing last November. Furthermore, Layton's legacy with Nintendo makes him a stronger contender in my opinion. Professor Layton games were a defining hallmark of the DS generation, garnering strong, positive reception for their challenging puzzles and managing to sell 11.47 million units worldwide by 2011. In 2013 this number has turned into 15 million, and by 17 million by 2018. At the very least, this shows Layton's status as one of the DS' stronger series. This is further corroborated by the fact that Layton still stands among Nintendo's first-party franchises on Nintendo UK's Nintendo Characters Hub page (alongside fellow Level-5 series Inazuma Eleven and Phoenix Wright). Speaking of the United Kingdom and Europe, Layton is incredibly popular there. Iwata (RIP) admits in an interview that Curious Village did so well that it "surprised" Nintendo with its European success, and a 2009 interview with Level-5 CEO Akihiro Hino states something similar (we'll return to this interview). Considering that Europe is largely who got us Bayonetta from the Ballot, they're clearly not a demographic to be underestimated.

Sidenote, but man do we really underestimate Europe. It's always the US and Japan in speculation, but rarely ever Europe. We gotta talk about them and what they want more since it's clearly a large demographic for both Nintendo and Smash Bros.

In regards to the potential for Layton in Smash Bros. specifically, it's something Hino has been approached about multiple times actually. In a 2008 panel that both Hino and Sakurai attended, a moderator talked about how they wanted Layton in Smash, to which both laughed. At the very least, Layton has been on Sakurai's radar for years now. Returning to that 2009 interview, he said this when asked about Layton in Smash:

When asked about it again in a 2017 interview, he said this:

Hino knows about Smash, and I believe he, like every other game developer, recognizes the advertising effect of the series. Given the opportunity, I believe he'd want to push Layton since he's said it's his favorite Level-5 property in a 2016 Forbes interview (at the height of Yo-kai Watch's popularity):

Layton makes more sense than Jibanyan for this reason alongside the solid amount of support he seemed to have in the Ballot era, with semi-prominent Youtubers RabbidLuigi and AceStarThe3rd voicing support for him among others.

Not necessarily related, but Layton has a significant female audience too, with a 2012 poll of 6,729 players revealing that 51% of players were female. Layton could have a very specific appeal to European, female, and casual demographics that could allow him to get in over other picks.

All of this is great and all, but my question after looking at all this is Why isn't Layton (or Jibanyan for that matter) in Smash already?
You would think given the strength of Level-5's IPs alongside their size as a company and positive relationship with Nintendo that a Level-5 character would already be in Smash by now, especially when requests for Layton specifically date back to 2008. I can only come up with two explanations that hold up to Occam's Razor:

1. For some reason Level-5 has previously rejected attempts to include their characters in Smash, or
2. Their series haven't been previously considered due to being overshadowed by existing franchises

I'm going to assume the latter, as Level-5 doesn't seem to be too difficult to work with, and given that Sakurai and Hino have appeared at panels together, the two must hold a good working relationship at the very least.

As we continue adding third party franchises, I'd say that relatively smaller series like Layton have a better chance of inclusion. So hold out hope everyone, the solution to the puzzle of Layton in Smash might just appear.

Spoiler: Next Time!

ANOTHER DOUBLE FEATURE!
I don't know how to hint at these ones so it's Sol Badguy and Ezio.

Back to work I go!

A great writeup tehponycorn.
In regards to that talkshow where Hino was present with Sakurai. He himself went out of his way to request Layton to Sakurai, stating that he'd give him free reign to decide his moveset, Which is something Sakurai is always happy with when third parties give him as much creative control as possible.
Here's the Famitsu article if you're interested in looking into it.

I want Professor Layton to be included in the sequel. How about attacking with fencing? I'll leave it all to Mr. Sakurai.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's funny how they only gave the echo label to clones people might've otherwise complained about.

True indeed.

Ken's otherwise the only one they could've not labeled a clone and due to some rather big differences, would've had less complaints. Especially since Echoes aren't really the same thing as regular clones, but just a sub version of them. Though to be fair, literally the only rule is "general same bodyshape", while the rest is a lot more open at this point.

Besides, Dr. Mario really only has his Melee vet status that would make him a reason to not be labeled an Echo at that point, and that's dubious since Dark Pit and Lucina were literally labeled clones in 4 by Sakurai too. It's inconsistent for the most part.

Either way, I would love to see an Echo pass~

 

[Aerospherology]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

I don't buy it.

 

[N3ON]

Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

Yes it would be. But that's not going to happen.

 

[RouffWestie]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

Regardless of what happens, I'm unironically happy I lived to see and at least get in Smash

 

[Cosmic77]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

Don't get caught up in all the drama sites like Twitter and Facebook are making out of this. For starters, WW3 insinuates that multiple countries aside from the US and Iran would be involved, which probably isn't happening. Second, Iranian leaders have only just recently suppressed the dozens of protests that happened on a daily basis. If war did break out, I think many of their own people would be rooting for the US to take out their corrupt officials.

Right now, both sides are just flexing their muscles. I doubt we're getting a legitimate war.

Regardless of what happens, I'm unironically happy I lived to see and at least get in Smash

I would've been fine with just .

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I would honestly like Tetra as a Toon Link semi-clone. Maybe a little slower with more power and only the pistol as a projectile. Give her the grappling hook as her grab, a new up-air and down-air, and that sounds like a neat fighter to me.

Though I do understand if people think that would be too much of the same.

 

[Izanagi97]

I know nothing about Tales, but I take it there would be no way to make an all-in-one protagonist character as a Tales rep, similar to Hero?

Yeah, they use different weapons and the ones who use the same weapon (usually a sword) all have different heights, builds, and fighting styles.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

I don't think the US commiting more war crimes will affect Smash tbh. I understand the concern because everyday life has already been too ****ing depressing after a single week in 2020 but I don't see the point in posting this here when I'm sure most people are trying to escape paranoia from war crimes which will inevitably lead into another post 9-11 America by talking about video games they like

 

[Fenriraga]

So Smash just went down for maintenance.

Obviously means nothing, but it's Smash specifically. Odd.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So Smash just went down for maintenance.

Obviously means nothing, but it's Smash specifically. Odd.

Sakurai is cutting out the Nintendo characters due to Nintendo purists getting upset at the love SNK got

 

[MBRedboy31]

Think of it like this for alts; they're exactly like echoes in a way. They need to have the same bodyshape for it to work. That's why Alph and the Koopalings worked. That includes any weapons too. They need something very similar enough to be adjusted to fit the mold. Taunts aren't a big deal whatsoever, but other animations are. Even Echoes can have some extra animations, but need to be extremely similar in general. If one uses a single sword, and one uses two swords, they already have a very extreme difference in their abilities.

Something that feels a lot more likely in this case would be alt colors inspired by other characters who couldn't be a proper skin. We have this quite often for those with different bodyshapes at times. Take the Wario-based colors Mario has had, same with the Waluigi-based colors that Mario and Luigi have. He can't work as a skin, but as an alt color referencing it it works pretty well.

Even Ken is still extremely similar to Ryu despite being rather unique(and enough that he didn't have to have the Echo label. Of course, Dr. Mario actually is close enough to be an Echo otherwise. Funny that).

Yes, I know how alts and echoes work within existing character picks. But, what new, never before done things do you think can be done with them?

 

[SneakyLink]

So Smash just went down for maintenance.

Obviously means nothing, but it's Smash specifically. Odd.

Probably the Richter/Dark Samus amiibo update.

Because they release next week.

 

[Deleted member]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

This won’t result in a war

trust me

 

[Idon]

Cancel your Direct plans/speculation immediately, WORLD WAR 3 might have just officially begun!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1214700496109395969


Will be tough to get that Direct if the entire planet is fighting each other, wouldn’t you all agree?

Ugh, do me a favor and don't bring that crap here.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

So Smash just went down for maintenance.

Obviously means nothing, but it's Smash specifically. Odd.

Probably the Richter/Dark Samus amiibo update.

Because they release next week.

If this isn't a sign that we're getting really closer to that reveal, I don't know what is.