Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Droodle]

For Lloyd and Yuri, couldn't they just do a "One for Japan, one for America" type of deal like the Dragon Quest Heroes? Are Lloyd and Yuri that vastly different from each other that they couldn't be alts?



Dragon Quest 11 was on the 3DS too so he doesn't count.

If you really want to grasp for straws for Cloud, he appears in Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories and Re: Coded so there are no characters in Smash that truly do not appear on Nintendo consoles.

They really can't. The reason is because Lloyd dual wields, while Yuri typically is shown wielding a Katana/Sword. Their fighting styles are completely different.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm joking about how P4 really **** the bed when it came to it's societal themes and how Yosuke, a character who was planned to be the gay romance option only for the part where he comes out and admits his behaivour was him struggling with his bisexuality to get cut, act homophobic with no real reason beyond being a ****

Oh ok. To be honest I don't find Yu to be that compelling of a character. In fact I'd go as far as to say we already have him and his name is Marth. Or Corrin if you prefer, but most people don't.

Tekken is a 3D Fighter so it's nothing like Street Fighter or King of Fighters.

I was thinking in terms of overall feel at a glance. I know the characters are nothing like each other on any other level.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Dragon Quest 11 was on the 3DS too so he doesn't count.

If you really want to grasp for straws for Cloud, he appears in Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories and Re: Coded so there are no characters in Smash that truly do not appear on Nintendo consoles.

Forgot about the 3DS one. But you missed the context.

We weren't talking about "appearances alone", we were talked about major appearances. Cloud's a minor appearance in both KH games. His biggest appearance was in the Theatrical FF game(I'm sure I spelled that name wrong), and that's just a spin-off and not that big of a game either. To say the least, Joker's 3DS game was far bigger and actually starred him as the main protagonist.

So different situations.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Tekken is a 3D Fighter so it's nothing like Street Fighter or King of Fighters.

And 3D fighting games aren't just fighting games but 3D. To demonstrate one of Tekken's distinct qualities, Heihachi's B button could essentially act like a second A button but with moves involving his left limbs.

 

[frozolloyd]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you entirely. I'm just stating that personally I think Yuri has as good of a shot as Lloyd currently; but if Sakurai stated that post-pass is entirely fan-favorites, then I'd be inclined to believe that the only Tales option would be Lloyd.

However, I disagree with the statement that Yu is more popular then Joker; simply because I don't really think that it is true. Persona 5 is on a whole another league of popularity compared to Persona 4 in modern days, and there's nothing to suggest that Yu is more popular then Joker; especially inside of Japan. In regards to Alucard vs the Belmonts, the main protagonists of the overall Castlevania series are still the Belmonts; so it's not really the same thing. Besides that, I think the hardcore Castlevania fans still wanted the Belmonts in the most, comparatively to Alucard (who is still popular, especially outside the hardcore fanbase.) As a Persona fan, I'm pretty confident in Joker being more popular then Yu (He even appears in the Sega logo in the Sonic movie). However, I'm not hugely into Castlevania, so I may be wrong on that one.

Hehe, Imma about to end this whole man's career. Jokes aside, here is the most "official" poll for persona we have.
http://p-ch.jp/news/2067/
Long story short, for persona PQ2, Atlus conducted a character poll on the characters in that game to see who were the most popular characters in the game were. P3 came first, then Yuu and then Joker was 6th place. Ironically, Joker in this poll was in a similar position to Lloyd, not even being the most popular character from his own game with Goro being above him at 5th. Japan for some reason doesn't seem to like Joker compared to the other two for some reason. That being said, official polls are hard to find for Persona, since unlike the Tales fandom, they seem to only hold these polls randomly. No doubt btw Joker is the most "mainstream" of the bunch.

 

[MooMew64]

Yuri is nothing like Lloyd, an alt wouldn't work.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yuri is nothing like Lloyd, an alt wouldn't work.

They'd probably give him a purple alt though. And Yuri a red one if they went with him.

 

[MBRedboy31]

They really can't. The reason is because Lloyd dual wields, while Yuri typically is shown wielding a Katana/Sword. Their fighting styles are completely different.

To be fair, they were willing to give Lloyd a single sword for the Mii costume.

 

[Garteam]

I know nothing about Tales, but I take it there would be no way to make an all-in-one protagonist character as a Tales rep, similar to Hero?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, they were willing to give Lloyd a single sword for the Mii costume.

Which is a Mii costume, not a regular playable character. Lloyd without two swords is pretty illogical. That's his entire fighting style. The Mii Swordsman is a completely different character just wearing a costume based upon someone. They're very different situations.

Lloyd's own animations are based around two swords. They'd have very few references to use to do it that way. With the Mii Swordsman, the fact they have animations with other costumes already gives something to work with. The animations are the same, with the biggest changes being things like potential face changes, or how the sword might glow, etc.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

Glad the plant exists, at least.

(you can use this as a copypasta if you want, this post is purposely designed to become one).

 

[Firox]

If I had to pick between Yuri and Lloyd, I'd pick Lloyd simply because his dual wield style would be more unique than the incredibly tired swordfighter archtype that's saturated the game. In fact, if we get any more generic single-bladed swordfighters, I'm flat out not buying. The fact that Hero's normals are basically an compilation of Link's and Ike's tells me that they're probably running out of ideas for swordfighter movesets.

 

[Flyboy]

Velvet Crowe should be the Tales rep because she has a demon hand and I like her game a lot. That's it, that's my reasoning.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I know nothing about Tales, but I take it there would be no way to make an all-in-one protagonist character as a Tales rep, similar to Hero?

It'd be more reasonable to make Heihachi have Kazuya and Jin as alts, since Heihachi and Jin started out as Kazuya clones.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

Glad the plant exists, at least.

(you can use this as a copypasta if you want, this post is purposely designed to become one).

Wow are you telling me a wrestler pokemon's moveset was inspired by a wrestler? Deary me what a shocker! Next you'll tell me the martiap artist pokemon's moveset had martial arts as a theme

I know nothing about Tales, but I take it there would be no way to make an all-in-one protagonist character as a Tales rep, similar to Hero?

Lloyd has 2 swords, Yuri has 1, Velvet has 2 swords on her limbs and a demonic claw. Absolutely impossible, even with Hero's leniency

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

Glad the plant exists, at least.

(you can use this as a copypasta if you want, this post is purposely designed to become one).

Eh, it's more like the usage of a few moves might've been inspired by Zangief.

Incineroar is highly unique, but he's still a wrestler archtype. Some characters are good for inspiration. He's definitely not Zangief reskinned by any means.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

1 Special Move != entire character. I wouldn't exactly consider Incineroar a copy and paste of Zangief. There are just some parallels between the two.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Something amusing I noticed regarding the infamous Eagles vs Seahawks playoff game the other day.

Eagles' backup quarterback is Josh McCown, and someone on Reddit commented that he looks like Doom Slayer. Meanwhile the Seahawks backup QB is named Geno Smith. A bit random but given speculation patterns and association of the two I found it amusing. XP

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Velvet Crowe should be the Tales rep because she has a demon hand and I like her game a lot. That's it, that's my reasoning.

change her outfit and you got a deal

still rather have Yuri

 

[NoOtherPersona]

The one thing that I think we should remember with Lloyd is the fact that he’s arguably the most recognizable to gamers who don’t play Tales, but also the main protagonist of the game with the largest impact in the West. That’s a bigger deal than it seems, mainly because it’s a title in a Japanese series getting a foothold in the West.

There’s also the fact that Sakurai himself said of the Mii Costume for Tales, “Who else but Lloyd?” Now it’s not as though he can’t change his mind. I just don’t think it’s all that cut and dry.

This is assuming any Tales pick happens in the first place.

I mean look at hero everyone was debating about which DQ protagonist would get in 3 or 11 when 8 was right there and had the most impact in the west I could see them trying to make Yuri and Lloyd work but I don't think that'll happen tho but one of the two is gonna be a costume for sure

 

[Garteam]

I don't know why, but the realization that Incineroar is mostly a Street Fighter character reskinned as a Pokèmon somehow made me even more disappointed in the character selection of Ultimate than I was before knowing it... for some reason it makes me lose hopes for the future newcomers too.

I thought Incineroar was one of the better characters because it felt kinda unique, but now that feel vanished completely.

Glad the plant exists, at least.

(you can use this as a copypasta if you want, this post is purposely designed to become one).

While Incineroar obviously isn't a Zangief clone, I generally agree with the message of this post. As a series, Pokemon characters have the potential to be strange, unique fighters who are fully distinct from any other character on the roster. That's why it's kinda lame to see Incineroar take on the path of a humanoid wrestler, there's numerous other characters who could have followed this fighting style.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

While Incineroar obviously isn't a Zangief clone, I generally agree with the message of this post. As a series, Pokemon characters have the potential to be strange, unique fighters who are fully distinct from any other character on the roster. That's why it's kinda lame to see Incineroar take on the path of a humanoid wrestler, there's numerous other characters who could have followed this fighting style.

This is such a non issue. Incineroar's still a highly unique character with attacks and animations not shared throughout most, if not the entire cast and the wrestler niche had not yet been picked. It's a Pokemon, a flavour of the month addition like they've always been

 

[Aerospherology]

1 Special Move != entire character. I wouldn't exactly consider Incineroar a copy and paste of Zangief. There are just some parallels between the two.

you ate the pasta

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

With all the flips and sword throwing Yuri does in his attacks, It would he hard to make Yuri a Llyod alt

 

[kirbsmash]

He's the FREAKING HEEL POKEMON.

 

[Mamboo07]

While Incineroar obviously isn't a Zangief clone, I generally agree with the message of this post. As a series, Pokemon characters have the potential to be strange, unique fighters who are fully distinct from any other character on the roster. That's why it's kinda lame to see Incineroar take on the path of a humanoid wrestler, there's numerous other characters who could have followed this fighting style.

Don't mention the starters getting in Smash over other unique Pokemon. (It's starting to bore me to death.)

 

[ZelDan]

I just thought of something.

Maybe we will end up having the next general direct during February, but maybe FP5 will be showcased by itself sometimes this month? Then maybe we will get to see our first post-FP character(s) during the general direct in February.

Just an idea I had.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

While Incineroar obviously isn't a Zangief clone, I generally agree with the message of this post. As a series, Pokemon characters have the potential to be strange, unique fighters who are fully distinct from any other character on the roster. That's why it's kinda lame to see Incineroar take on the path of a humanoid wrestler, there's numerous other characters who could have followed this fighting style.

While I don't think there are any characters other than Zangief that could replace Incineroar's motif, I do agree that Pokémon's picks should be a little more out there from here on out. Having the newest gen's starter each game will get very boring very quickly regardless of the execution. Like, imagine if the added Chandelure or Zekrom or something.

you ate the pasta

That's ok I like pasta.

 

[RileyXY1]

With all the flips and sword throwing Yuri does in his attacks, It would he hard to make Yuri a Llyod alt

And, there's also the issue of Yuri using only one sword and Lloyd using two.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

We can avoid the Lloyd vs Yuri debate by instead having Rondoline. Then everyone will be happy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just thought of something.

Maybe we will end up having the next general direct during February, but maybe FP5 will be showcased by itself sometimes this month? Then maybe we will get to see our first post-FP character(s) during the general direct in February.

Just an idea I had.

If we don't get a direct next week then that's my best bet, they love hiding **** until the last second for some reason

 

[Mamboo07]

We can avoid the Lloyd vs Yuri debate by instead having Rondoline. Then everyone will be happy.

But Smash fans would be salty if he got in over them.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

And, there's also the issue of Yuri using only one sword and Lloyd using two.

A sword is a sword is a sword. It doesnt really matter if one person has 1 or 2 of them. I like to watch Yuri fight more pff

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But Smash fans would be salty if he got in over them.

Then we'll just have to add Genis. No one was going to be happy anyway.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Characters to Look Out For in Ultimate DLC (III)
By tehponycorn​

Previously: Don-chan, 2B
This time:

Spoiler: Acknowledgements/Notes

• As always, I'll check my bias at the door. I actually haven't played Layton or Fortnite. I guess I played a bit of Layton back when I was like, 9 and disliked it because my poor 9 year old brain didn't have the attention span to handle it. I only really know Fortnite because of the memes, and I've jokingly offered to play it with friends, but never have. Little to no bias here.
• Thanks to A Ayumi Tachibana for helping this argument with his translations. Keep up the great work!
• I feel the need to repeat that leaks or rumors since those aren't speculation, and hearsay should not be used in place of actual evidence. I feel the need to say this given how speculation seems centered on such nowadays.

Spoiler: Background - Beyond Nintendo

Smash Bros. is a celebration of gaming. Having grown beyond its humble origins as a Nintendo crossover, it's scope extends far beyond one single company, drawing in famous characters from a variety of companies.

"But tehponycorn!" you say, "Smash Bros. is about Nintendo first!" To which I respond with this 2018 statement from Sakurai:

Smash was once subtitled “Nintendo All-Stars,” but the game’s scope has expanded far beyond Nintendo.

With this established, in regards to Smash speculation, the sky is the limit. So long as they originate from a video game, they could realistically be in Smash Bros. So then the question I pose is: why do we stick to the same old echoed characters? Time and time again the Smash fanbase has speculated around characters only to be blindsided by picks like Joker, Hero, and Terry. These picks make sense in hindsight, yet prior to their inclusion were supported by a certain few who were laughed off until they were right, at which point these characters were seen as "obvious." In writing this essay I hope to pop the Smash Bubble for a bit and broaden the horizons of speculation. A lofty goal that I'll probably be laughed at for, but I figured I'd try nonetheless.

Spoiler: Professor Layton

Level-5's omission from Smash so far is actually rather odd, given Level-5's large support of Nintendo since the DS era with their Professor Layton, Yo-kai Watch, and Inazuma Eleven series', with them even bringing their other major IP, Nino no Kuni to the Switch in 2019 (there was also a Japan-exclusive DS release in 2013). Similar to Square Enix and Dragon Quest, Nintendo's even picked up publishing of their games worldwide, doing so with both the Professor Layton and Yokai Watch series. Pretty much all of their series are notable in some way, with Yo-kai Watch dominating Japan from 2013-2016. It was considered a "Pokémon Killer," outpacing the series in merchandising and anime, and netting Namco Bandai a lot of yen (think tens of millions) off of toy sales. Level-5's IPs have spawned 3 different anime franchises, with each getting at least one full-feature anime movie (Layton has 1, Inazuma Eleven has 4, and Yo-kai Watch has 5; Nino-no-kuni does not have a series, but has spawned two anime movies). You could say that Level-5's series are more media franchises, spanning multiple mediums, than game series contained within one media. Considering the popularity of their IPs and the relationship they have with Nintendo, a Level-5 character makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.

So then, the question is: Why Professor Layton? If this were Sm4sh DLC or Ultimate base speculation I'd tell you he didn't have a chance compared to Jibanyan, but Yo-kai Watch is kinda dead now, and the Layton series is still very much living, with a deluxe edition of the most recent game just releasing last November. Furthermore, Layton's legacy with Nintendo makes him a stronger contender in my opinion. Professor Layton games were a defining hallmark of the DS generation, garnering strong, positive reception for their challenging puzzles and managing to sell 11.47 million units worldwide by 2011. In 2013 this number has turned into 15 million, and by 17 million by 2018. At the very least, this shows Layton's status as one of the DS' stronger series. This is further corroborated by the fact that Layton still stands among Nintendo's first-party franchises on Nintendo UK's Nintendo Characters Hub page (alongside fellow Level-5 series Inazuma Eleven and Phoenix Wright). Speaking of the United Kingdom and Europe, Layton is incredibly popular there. Iwata (RIP) admits in an interview that Curious Village did so well that it "surprised" Nintendo with its European success, and a 2009 interview with Level-5 CEO Akihiro Hino states something similar (we'll return to this interview). Considering that Europe is largely who got us Bayonetta from the Ballot, they're clearly not a demographic to be underestimated.

Sidenote, but man do we really underestimate Europe. It's always the US and Japan in speculation, but rarely ever Europe. We gotta talk about them and what they want more since it's clearly a large demographic for both Nintendo and Smash Bros.

In regards to the potential for Layton in Smash Bros. specifically, it's something Hino has been approached about multiple times actually. In a 2008 panel that both Hino and Sakurai attended, a moderator talked about how they wanted Layton in Smash, to which both laughed. At the very least, Layton has been on Sakurai's radar for years now. Returning to that 2009 interview, he said this when asked about Layton in Smash:

That would certainly be a wonderful opportunity!

When asked about it again in a 2017 interview, he said this:

If it looks like it’s fun and entertaining for both us and consumers, then we’re definitely open to more collaborations...I have a good relationship with Capcom right now, which was what lead to the Phoenix Wright crossover.

Hino knows about Smash, and I believe he, like every other game developer, recognizes the advertising effect of the series. Given the opportunity, I believe he'd want to push Layton since he's said it's his favorite Level-5 property in a 2016 Forbes interview (at the height of Yo-kai Watch's popularity):

“I have strong feelings for all our games but if I have to choose one title, it would be the Layton series as my favorite. It has a soft spot in my heart because it was the first title Level-5 published and it was so successful.

Layton makes more sense than Jibanyan for this reason alongside the solid amount of support he seemed to have in the Ballot era, with semi-prominent Youtubers RabbidLuigi and AceStarThe3rd voicing support for him among others.

Not necessarily related, but Layton has a significant female audience too, with a 2012 poll of 6,729 players revealing that 51% of players were female. Layton could have a very specific appeal to European, female, and casual demographics that could allow him to get in over other picks.

All of this is great and all, but my question after looking at all this is Why isn't Layton (or Jibanyan for that matter) in Smash already?
You would think given the strength of Level-5's IPs alongside their size as a company and positive relationship with Nintendo that a Level-5 character would already be in Smash by now, especially when requests for Layton specifically date back to 2008. I can only come up with two explanations that hold up to Occam's Razor:

1. For some reason Level-5 has previously rejected attempts to include their characters in Smash, or
2. Their series haven't been previously considered due to being overshadowed by existing franchises

I'm going to assume the latter, as Level-5 doesn't seem to be too difficult to work with, and given that Sakurai and Hino have appeared at panels together, the two must hold a good working relationship at the very least.

As we continue adding third party franchises, I'd say that relatively smaller series like Layton have a better chance of inclusion. So hold out hope everyone, the solution to the puzzle of Layton in Smash might just appear.

Spoiler: Jonesy (Fortnite Character)

Hear me out on this one.

Fortnite's popularity really speaks for itself, just recently being revealed to be the 2nd most talked about video game on Twitter, pulling in a record 10.8 million concurrent players for a virtual concert of real life EDM performer Marshmello, smashing the record for most concurrent viewers on a single player stream when Ninja roped in Drake, Travis Scott, and Juju Smith to play Fortnite with him and got 628,000 concurrent viewers, hitting a monthly player count of 78 million in August 2018, and hitting 250 million players total in March 2019. Fortnite dances have become ubiquitous with today's youth, and many have caught on to larger popular culture such as the floss among others. That may seem like a lot to take in, but the TL;DR is that Fortnite is incredibly popular. Including a Fortnite character would be sure to make lots of money between Nintendo and Epic Games. Fortnite also has a broad appeal that could draw in a large amount of fans to Smash Bros., and subsequently other Nintendo franchises

Epic Games is no stranger to working with Nintendo, with Fortnite taking a prominent position in Nintendo's E3 2018 presentation, and is pretty revolutionary in the gaming industry for breaking down the walls of console exclusivity and bringing true cross-play to video games among other prominent feats. I feel like a lot of people undersell Fortnite because "ew cringy kids" but the concept of playing a single game between platforms was unheard of not even 5 years ago, and to break down even Playstation to accomplish this is truly revolutionary. Furthermore, Epic Games has worked with a lot of companies on different promotions within Fortnite. This includes:

• Disney- Wreck it Ralph
  • Marvel (twice)
  • Lucasfilms (including a canon voice clip not played in RoS and appearances by JJ Abrams and Geoff Keighly)
• Netflix - Stranger Things
• Gearbox - Borderlands
• The NFL
• Lionsgate Entertainment - John Wick
• DC Comics - Batman
• Michael Jordan - Jumpman
• Marshmello - Virtual Concert

Given Epic Games' working relationship with Nintendo and past experience negotiating with corporate giants such as Disney pre-KH3's success would both lend themselves well to negotiating a Fortnite character for Smash Bros. with minimal risk in negotiations and large potential for hype and profit, a Fortnite character would be a smart decision.

One problem: Fortnite isn't all that big in Japan. At least not as big as mobile battle royale game Knives Out. It still has decent presence there, but that combined with the known concerns of working with Western companies due to the language barrier and distance could make Fortnite's inclusion in Smash somewhat difficult. Because of this, other popular, Japanese characters might be better options. Regardless, Fortnite is not to be underestimated, and could end up with a "W" in Smash.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Which is a Mii costume, not a regular playable character. Lloyd without two swords is pretty illogical. That's his entire fighting style. The Mii Swordsman is a completely different character just wearing a costume based upon someone. They're very different situations.

Lloyd's own animations are based around two swords. They'd have very few references to use to do it that way. With the Mii Swordsman, the fact they have animations with other costumes already gives something to work with. The animations are the same, with the biggest changes being things like potential face changes, or how the sword might glow, etc.

While you are correct, it still demonstrates leniency on Nintendo and Namco’s part for the character to be depicted less than accurately.

 

[frozolloyd]

People always mention the race being Yuri vs Lloyd, but watch the "Tales of news" the NoA source talked about be a port of Tales of Beseria to switch and then Velvet being added to smash to advertise that game like Eleven was (assuming they can deal with her... well design issue).

 

[N3ON]

This Yuri alt business gives me flashbacks to when people thought Rex could be a suitable Shulk clone.

 

[MrJudd]

While Incineroar obviously isn't a Zangief clone, I generally agree with the message of this post. As a series, Pokemon characters have the potential to be strange, unique fighters who are fully distinct from any other character on the roster. That's why it's kinda lame to see Incineroar take on the path of a humanoid wrestler, there's numerous other characters who could have followed this fighting style.

Incineroar wasn't a pick I was really fond of because I've been lost on Pokémon after X/Y, and I was kinda hoping for some Gen 3 or 5 representation for this game. His archetype was something new to the game (but so would be a owl ), though I agree that other characters could fit better. If there's one thing that I was disappointed with Incineroar was the lack of a Sun/Moon stage.

 

[Spatulo]

>DMC 3 Switch Tweet that I posted here earlier
>SNES Switch Controller site page says Jan 2020 for more information
>7/11 ad runs to Feb 2
>Pokemon Directs usually precede general ones
>Still have those mystery SKUs


Don’t worry, we won’t have to wait much longer.

He mentioned the date 1/16 right?