Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[osby]

Try telling this to anyone who simply posts things like "that's subjective." THAT shuts down conversation, but you'll never go after those people.

You can carry on a discussion without presenting your subjective opinions as objective facts or supporting of your arguments.

 

[Vrbtm]

You can carry on a discussion without presenting your subjective opinions as objective facts or supporting of your arguments.

Thanks for the non-sequitur.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean if Bayonetta is okay than I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with a character from Fate (well, except the overly sexualized ones where changing their outfits would piss too many people off)

I do think its possible that Fate getting in Smash its possible dont get me wrong as Sakurai can just say **** it I'm adding a pick from Fate (and let's be honest the only ones with chances are Artoria/Altria or EMIYA who don't have any issue designwise and are some of the most important and recognizable characters), but there's a difference where Bayo at most teases sex stuff or is implicit whereas Fate original release had explicit sex scenes.

 

[Izanagi97]

I do think its possible that Fate getting in Smash its possible dont get me wrong as Sakurai can just say **** it I'm adding a pick from Fate (and let's be honest the only ones with chances are Artoria/Altria or EMIYA who don't have any issue designwise and are some of the most important and recognizable characters), but there's a difference where Bayo at most teases sex stuff or is implicit whereas Fate original release had explicit sex scenes.

Speaking of Fate, that is definitely a series with some kick ass music

 

[Wunderwaft]

Absolutely out of the question.

How so?
I understand the argument for both sides, and Fate might seem unlikely but it's not a complete impossibility as some might think. You can't deny the massive amount of success and popularity that came from Grand Order, It's a game that achieved over 2 billion dollars in revenue worldwide. Popularity and success are not the sole factor for a Smash inclusion, but they do play a big part of that. Regardless, Fate is a series that is more well known in the anime crowd than in the gaming crowd, and I believe Nintendo is going to target audiences that are more closely tied to the gaming sphere instead.

 

[Exiliify]

Honestly, given previous arguments, Fate is a series that I could see the argument about being an eroge first affecting it but at the same time I could see Sakurai just adding it out of the blue.

Similar argument could be applied to Touhou in general. I have dealt with various trolls before in other communities where Touhou gets treated as an anime "weeb" pedo garbage stereotype. Won't be surprised if people here that are against Touhou getting into smash think in a similar way due to the numerous amounts of fanart that looks similar to anime style artwork and the official art style for the characters as well. Multiple fanmade animes have professional level animation, ZUN will never allow an official Touhou anime to exist due to the wrong image it can generate.

Some people really hate Touhou in general mainly due to the character design, but i encourage everyone to not judge the cover the book and to actually indulge in the material itself to get a better understanding why people like it.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Similar argument could be applied to Touhou in general. I have dealt with various trolls before in other communities where Touhou gets treated as an anime "weeb" pedo garbage stereotype. Won't be surprised if people here that are against Touhou getting into smash think in a similar way due to the numerous amounts of fanart that looks similar to anime style artwork and the official art style for the characters as well. Multiple fanmade animes have professional level animation, ZUN will never allow an official Touhou anime to exist due to the wrong image it can generate.

Some people really hate Touhou in general mainly due to the character design, but i encourage everyone to not judge the cover the book and to actually indulge in the material itself to get a better understanding why people like it.

Ehh I wouldn't really compare Touhou to Fate, both are different in their own regards. If anything I'd say Touhou is more similair to the indie crowd. Considering the nature of doujin games and the fact that ZUN makes the games by himself, you could say Touhou resembles a series like Shovel Knight and Shantae, except on a much bigger scale.

 

[Exiliify]

Well as i stated in my first post, Touhou is arguably the most iconic and one of oldest indie series in gaming history (First Touhou game released in 1996). It is safe to argue that without Touhou having the massive amount of success it has received over the years, many modern indie titles (especially Undertale) wouldn't have existed. Western gamers in general are still not completely familiar with Touhou, so having Reimu in smash will most likely be the first exposure for a lot gamers in western countries

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean if Bayonetta is okay than I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with a character from Fate (well, except the overly sexualized ones where changing their outfits would piss too many people off)

Thing is Bayonetta was never a porn game. Sakurai might be okay with it (don't think he is, but it's a possibility), but there's no way Nintendo wouldn't veto it. They have a family friendly image they still uphold.

Well as i stated in my first post, Touhou is arguably the most iconic and one of oldest indie series in gaming history (First Touhou game released in 1996). It is safe to argue that without Touhou having the massive amount of success it has received over the years, many modern indie titles (especially Undertale) wouldn't have existed. Western gamers in general are still not completely familiar with Touhou, so having Reimu in smash will most likely be the first exposure for a lot gamers in western countries

I'd say Touhou is far from being the most iconic indie series, just due to the fact that it's still relatively obscure. This isn't a knock on its chances but iconicness not a strong argument for them.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I'd say Touhou is far from being the most iconic indie series, just due to the fact that it's still relatively obscure. This isn't a knock on its chances but iconicness not a strong argument for them.

Touhou isn't actually obscure, not in Japan at least. Even in the west it has a fandom that is arguably as big as other indie titles, if not bigger.

 

[Deleted member]

Similar argument could be applied to Touhou in general. I have dealt with various trolls before in other communities where Touhou gets treated as an anime "weeb" pedo garbage stereotype. Won't be surprised if people here that are against Touhou getting into smash think in a similar way due to the numerous amounts of fanart that looks similar to anime style artwork and the official art style for the characters as well. Multiple fanmade animes have professional level animation, ZUN will never allow an official Touhou anime to exist due to the wrong image it can generate.

Some people really hate Touhou in general mainly due to the character design, but i encourage everyone to not judge the cover the book and to actually indulge in the material itself to get a better understanding why people like it.

Dunno if you thought I was trolling, I only was saying that currently I dont know how the perception of the Fate franchise may affect or not that Sakurai considers it for the game. The closest we have to something like Fate mature-wise would be Bayo and even then Bayo is not as explicit as Fate's og release relating sex stuff (still I would say that the violence in Bayo compensates that aspect a bit)

Fate as a franchise has a lot of merits and, while I dont support any pick from the series, its a franchise that I wouldn't mind having in Smash. I dunno about Tohou but as long as the character looks fun to play, I'm ok with them in the game as well.

 

[Exiliify]

Touhou is very popular in east asian countries outside of japan, i believe china has a very large fanbase as well not sure about south korea though. For the record, Toby Fox is a huge touhou fan and Touhou was an inspiration for Undertale. I imagine many indie devs have tried to recreate the same success as Touhou, but very few have seen large success, Kantai Collection's popularity in Japan rivals the popularity of Touhou currently especially with doujin material.

In the west, it seems like its obscure partially due to fandoms of indies like Undertale that are too vocal drowning out other with fandoms with a larger fanbase. Honestly, Touhou in terms of amount fans potentially has more than really any video game series at the moment mainly due to the internet and numerous amount of fanmade content out there

Dunno if you thought I was trolling, I only was saying that currently I dont know how the perception of the Fate franchise may affect or not that Sakurai considers it for the game. The closest we have to something like Fate mature-wise would be Bayo and even then Bayo is not as explicit as Fate's og release relating sex stuff (still I would say that the violence in Bayo compensates that aspect a bit)

Fate as a franchise has a lot of merits and, while I dont support any pick from the series, its a franchise that I wouldn't mind having in Smash. I dunno about Tohou but as long as the character looks fun to play, I'm ok with them in the game as well.

I knew you weren't trolling, just sharing my experiences with others in the past. Really just making comparisons how judging a book by its cover can give others the wrong image in regards to that type of material turning them away. This can and often leads to people generalizing content that looks similar to each other. So yeah it was clear you weren't trolling

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

It will be interesting though if AoCF's port to the switch is completed before E3. Then it may possible that Reimu could get announced as one of the playable DLC characters, however, not exactly confident the crowd would be very excited about it since they will most likely expect more characters from games that have a decent history with Nintendo. Definitely would give Touhou a larger boost for the western fanbase which i think ZUN is trying to do at the moment with allowing Touhou having official games on Steam and multiple fangames already on the switch. So i highly doubt ZUN would turn down the idea of Touhou getting represented in Smash at some point. By the way for the ones who don't know much about Touhou, ZUN is the creator of the series and he owns all of the rights for the characters, so its ultimately up to him whether Sakurai gets the green light or not. Won't be surprised if Sakurai did seriously consider adding Reimu or Marisa in the past before.

I won't be surprised if Phoenix Wright gets in eventually. Saber from Fate (pls no emiya) is possible. Only issue with Melty getting a rep is that both Fate and Melty are both made by Type-Moon, so maybe a debate on that.

We know they won't add characters from Anime or any cartoons, but since RWBY characters are in blazblue now, perhaps a slight chance one of them could make it for consideration at some point due to RWBY's popularity. Although i would like to see it happen, its a long shot

They said AoCF's Switch port will be in serious development after PS4 port release so sadly we won't see it in near future.
But considering Touhou's smartphone game with voices (and microtransactions) from Aniplex is coming this year, I think ZUN has changed his mind a bit and start letting big companies to do more "business-business" with the franchise.
And now Touhou fangames are doing super well on Switch and was competing with Mario Odyssey at that time, I can totally see Nintendo picking her for DLC before Undertale simply timing-wise.

 

[Curious Villager]

- Phoenix Wright and Professor Layton are decent, if boring, choices. The problem is that they're incredibly niche and unsexy to anyone except for their cult fanbases.

The funny thing about this is that both Professor Layton and Ace Attorney are renowned for having a very large female fanbase and both their main protags being very popular and endearing with them as well. Clearly they are doing something right with Layton and Phoenix.

Not sure why "sexiness" needs to matter either when half the cast is debatable at best or just an outright no on that front but oh well.
Unless you mean that they also need to be appealing to women, which in that case. They more or less already do, like I said.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

Just remember, there was the first and the only VN character Sakurai actually had considered.

 

[Vrbtm]

Unless you mean that they also need to be appealing to women, which in that case. They more or less already do, like I said.

I mean they need to be appealing in the first place. Not just sexually, but in general.

Very common usage of the word.

I have dealt with various trolls before in other communities where Touhou gets treated as an anime "weeb" pedo garbage stereotype.

Those weren't trolls.

 

[Curious Villager]

I mean they need to be appealing in the first place. Not just sexually, but in general.

Very common usage of the word.

So what is it about them that isn't particularly appealing to them?
And isn't that more or less a subjective thing?

Like I said, they managed to become very popular in their own right, whether its their design, personalities, stories, or people simply enjoying their overall games. Level-5 and Capcom must have done something right to make them stand out for people.

 

[Vrbtm]

So what is it about them that isn't particularly appealing to them?
And isn't that more or less a subjective thing?

I don't know. Probably the fact that nobody buys their games, even if they're well-liked? And no, that's not subjective?

Level-5

What does this even mean?

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't know. Probably the fact that nobody buys their games? And no, that's not subjective?

Last I checked, the Layton series has sold over 17 million copies within a span of about ten years and 7 mainline games as of last year. It's currently Level-5's highest selling franchise, even above Yokai Watch. I wouldn't exactly call that a low selling franchise.

Ace Attorney might be a tad behind on that regard and Capcom may still have some larger franchise in their disposal, but despite that, it still has a large following from what I've seen and consistently manages to keep up with them very well within fan polls..

 

[osby]

I don't know. Probably the fact that nobody buys their games, even if they're well-liked? And no, that's not subjective?

True, you are objectively wrong.

 

[Vrbtm]

Last I checked, the Layton series has sold over 17 million copies as of last year. It's currently Level-5's highest selling franchise, even above Yokai Watch. I wouldn't exactly call that a low selling franchise.

I'll admit that it's more than I expected. It still doesn't seem like a lot to me, though, when there's nine games.

So that's not even 2 million per game. It's a successful franchise to be sure, but Smashworthy? I don't think so.

It's weird that he doesn't at least have a Spirit or Assist Trophy, though, which is what he deserves.

True, you are objectively wrong.

Wow, you're so witty and clever XDDD

I'm objectively right, is the thing, though. Too bad, so sad.

 

[Flyboy]

It's factually wrong to think that Layton of all series' didn't sell when they absolutely crushed it in Europe and Curious Village was a pretty major point for the DS in it's early years. Layton, much like Banjo in the N64 era, stood shoulder to shoulder with first party Nintendo characters and is often confused for a Nintendo character himself.

The series is big, especially among the semi-casual fanbase the DS and Wii cultivated.

I mean, they're both in my most-wanted, especially Phoenix, and I do understand that some people in the fanbase would see them as less hype than, I dunno, Banjo or Doomguy or whatever, but the crossover appeal for them both is huge thanks to their big female fanbase. Plus, hell, anecdotal but just go to any con and tell me AA or Layton has no fans.

 

[osby]

I'm objectively right, is the thing, though. Too bad, so sad.

Not really. If you want to be though, you can prove your point with sales numbers, like how other people in this thread proved they sell reasonably well and are popular in their own right.

Saying "I'm right" doesn't prove anything by itself.

 

[Vrbtm]

Not really. If you want to be though, you can prove your point with sales numbers, like how other people in this thread proved they sell reasonably well and popular in their own right.

Professor Layton series did not sell 20 million copies worldwide despite having nine games over the past decade, being relatively new and relevant, and having such a large female fanbase (I don't know why the **** that matters anyway, or why anyone keeps bringing that up).

Every other character whose games also did not sell that much is probably either because they have a smaller library of games, or because they have some sort of reigning legacy.

Plus, hell, anecdotal but just go to any con and tell me AA or Layton has no fans.

That would be like going to a football stadium during a game and saying there are no football fans.

That's like, the anecdotal evidence fallacy and confirmation bias rolled into one right there.

Of course you're going to find fans in the places that they congregate.

 

[Flyboy]

Professor Layton series did not sell 20 million copies worldwide despite having nine games and having such a large female fanbase (I don't know why the **** that matters anyway, or why anyone keeps bringing that up).

Every other character whose games also did not sell that much is probably either because they have a smaller library of games, or because they have some sort of reigning legacy.

That would be like going to a football stadium during a game and saying there are no football fans.

That's like, the anecdotal evidence fallacy and confirmation bias rolled into one right there.

Of course you're going to find fans in the places that they congregate.

I mean I qualified it by saying it was anecdotal but also considering that Smash is a game that attracts fans it's not exactly a stretch to consider that they'd flock to the Smash DLC if they were announced. When you consider that Nintendo is trying to get new demographics into Smash, something they themselves said in an investor meeting, why not go for the large female demographic of those two series', or the semi-casual market that Layton especially cultivated?

 

[osby]

Professor Layton series did not sell 20 million copies worldwide despite having nine games and having such a large female fanbase (I don't know why the **** that matters anyway, or why anyone keeps bringing that up).

Every other character whose games also did not sell that much is probably either because they have a smaller library of games, or because they have some sort of reigning legacy.

Why 20 million, specifically? It sounds like an arbitrary number.

Persona series sold 9.3 units this time last year, and it has over ten titles including spin-offs and remakes. Despite that, it's still a well-known game in RPG community and Joker made it into Smash.

 

[Vrbtm]

I mean I qualified it by saying it was anecdotal

Which doesn't make it not anecdotal.

but also considering that Smash is a game that attracts fans it's not exactly a stretch to consider that they'd flock to the Smash DLC if they were announced. When you consider that Nintendo is trying to get new demographics into Smash, something they themselves said in an investor meeting, why not go for the large female demographic of those two series', or the semi-casual market that Layton especially cultivated?

Yeah that's great, I just don't see how it's relevant to this conversation. The fanbase can be 100% female for all I care, but if it hasn't even sold 20 million copies across ten years and almost ten games, I have to question how popular it truly is.

I'd prefer if Smash remained for the juggernauts only.

Why 20 million, specifically? It sounds like an arbitrary number.

Any number would sound like an arbitrary number because there's no winning with you.

Persona series sold 9.3 units this time last year, and it has over ten titles including spin-offs and remakes. Despite that, it's still a well-known game in RPG community and Joker made it into Smash.

And you have to admit that was unexpected, but at the same time, I would argue genre matters here. It's a niche series, so 9.3 million is a lot for an anime-esque JRPG that takes hundreds of hours to beat.

 

[Flyboy]

Which doesn't mean it not anecdotal.

Uhh, okay man, it was just flavor, I wasn't arguing it wasn't or that it was some big gotcha stat or anything.

Are you like this in real life? Damn

Yeah that's great, I just don't see how it's relevant to this conversation. The fanbase can be 100% female for all I care, but if it hasn't even sold 20 million copies across ten years and almost ten games, I have to question how popular it truly is.

I'd prefer if Smash remained for the juggernauts only.

It's relevant because those two series' have cultural impact and both fit Nintendo's MO while demonstrably being proven to be exciting to the fanbase, especially of those characters. Nintendo wants to sell DLC while getting new demographics into Smash. They're sleeper picks.

Also, like, Phoenix was absolutely the most exciting and talked about addition to UMvC3, something the devs themselves mentioned.

I feel like your definition of a juggernaut is skewed and myopic but go off I guess. There's always Smash 64.

 

[Vrbtm]

They're sleeper picks.

Yeah. Resident sleeper.

 

[osby]

And you have to admit that was unexpected, but at the same time, I would argue genre matters here. It's a niche series, so 9.3 million is a lot for an anime-esque JRPG that takes hundreds of hours to beat.

*looks at Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest*

If you say so...

 

[Vrbtm]

*looks at Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest*

If you say so...

Franchises with maybe double or triple the games Persona has, are FAR less niche overall due to dealing with basic and sky high concepts, and have been in the industry for 30+ years. Honestly the worst possible comparisons you could've made.

 

[Curious Villager]

Which doesn't mean it not anecdotal. Yeah that's great, I just don't see how it's relevant to this conversation. The fanbase can be 100% female for all I care, but if it hasn't even sold 20 million copies across ten years and almost ten games, I have to question how popular it truly is.

I'd prefer if Smash remained for the juggernauts only.

As osby said, there are third party franchises already in Smash that haven't even broken 10 million yet. 17 million is definitely nothing to scoff at.

There have even been longer running and iconic franchises that have taken longer to reach that number with even more games at that. For example, from what I could find, Metroid is at about 14/15 Million, I don't know how accurate that number is currently. But despite that, There is no denying that the series is highly renowned amongst the games industry.

 

[Vrbtm]

osby said, there are third party franchises already in Smash that haven't even broken 10 million yet. 17 million is definitely nothing to scoff at.

9 million for a niche JRPG that isn't FF or DQ might as well be 20 million.

For example, from what I could find, Metroid is at about 14/15 Million, I don't know how accurate that number is today. But despite that, There is no denying that the series is highly renowned amongst the games industry.

Samus was also on 64, so as far as I'm concerned, her place in the annals of Nintendo's history have been permanently etched regardless of how poorly her games sell. The 20 million figure I cited is not a hard and fast rule. Professor Layton simply doesn't have the legacy that Metroid does.

 

[osby]

Franchises with maybe double or triple the games Persona has, are FAR less niche overall due to dealing with basic and sky high concepts, and have been in the industry for 30+ years. Honestly the worst possible comparisons you could've made.

You're just proving that JRPGs are not that niche. Definitely more well-known than puzzle VNs. If Ace Attorney and Professor Layton can reach higher sales number in shorter time, it says something about how successful they are, despite not being giant franchises.

 

[Vrbtm]

You're just proving that JRPGs are not that niche.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Japanese_role-playing_game_franchises

Outside of FF, DQ, and of course Pokémon, JRPG sales take a nose dive after those three juggernauts. The next ones on this article are Monster Hunter and Kingdom Hearts, which shouldn't even count. Beyond that, there's a pretty big jump-off.

If Ace Attorney and Professor Layton can reach higher sales number in shorter time, it says something about how successful they are

It doesn't, because they haven't. 144 million for FF and 78 million for DQ. There's no comparison.

Unless you meant Persona, but the thing about Persona is that it's sexy. It has style and flair. Layton doesn't. EVEN THEN there's an argument to be made that Joker doesn't deserve to be in the game anyway, because he's from an M-rated franchise.

Layton himself is a character that you have to stretch your imagination in order to figure out how he'd even fight in the first place, because he's Assist Trophy material.

 

[Curious Villager]

9 million for a niche JRPG that isn't FF or DQ might as well be 20 million.

Samus was also on 64, so as far as I'm concerned, her place in the annals of Nintendo's history have been permanently etched regardless of how poorly her games sell. The 20 million figure I cited is not a hard and fast rule. Professor Layton simply doesn't have the legacy that Metroid does.

>Professor Layton simply doesn't have the legacy

Heh, my apologies I couldn't resist, you walked right into that one...

 

[Vrbtm]

>Professor Layton simply doesn't have the legacy



Heh, my apologies I couldn't resist, you walked right into that one...

Advertisements make outrageous claims in order to sell you things. Rather naïve point.

 

[Flyboy]

Advertisements make outrageous claims in order to sell you things. Rather naïve point.

I am begging you to get a sense of humor

 

[osby]

Unless you meant Persona, but the thing about Persona is that it's sexy. It has style and flair. Layton doesn't. EVEN THEN there's an argument to be made that Joker doesn't deserve to be in the game anyway, because he's from an M-rated franchise.

I was talking about Persona.

And I don't think Layton is devoid of style or Joker is undeserving, but these are your opinions and they don't add anything to your argument.

Layton himself is a character that you have to stretch your imagination in order to figure out how he'd even fight in the first place, because he's Assist Trophy material.

So, like PAC-MAN?

 

[Curious Villager]

Advertisements make outrageous claims in order to sell you things. Rather naïve point.

This came straight from Level-5 themselves. They clearly see the series very highly, which can you blame them? It's the franchise that really put them into the public eye before Yokai Watch. Even the head CEO of the company himself stated that the series was his most favourite one to have worked on.