Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[fleshdude.gov]

That's the same as being impossible to make.

Knockback is a thing. Windboxes that don't do damage are also already a thing.

While it would be impossible in any other fighting game, smash's unique condition - push the opponent off the stage into the blast zone - makes it entirely possible.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Porky's helicopter appears in the stage Foursite since Melee. Porky's Theme is a music in in the stage New Pork City since Brawl. Porky Statue appears in the stage New Pork City since Brawl. Porky appears as a boss in Brawl. Porky appears as a trophy in Brawl and Sm4sh. Porky appears as a Smash Tour item in Sm4sh. In Ultimate, only The Absolutely Safe Capsule is used as a Spirit, and its sprite is the empty variant.
I think Porky could have two ways to come back, whatever its form : either with a pack Undertale, or with a new mode.

What does Porky have to do with Undertale?

You could probably design Frisk's moveset as just an amalgamation (hah) of various attack patterns that the monsters do in Undertale. Them being in Smash would go against the themes of their game but we also have , and in the game so I doubt the devs care.

Toby Fox is an indie dev, I think he'll care more about the themes of his game than the Wii Fit devs.

Knockback is a thing. Windboxes that don't do damage are also already a thing.

While it would be impossible in any other fighting game, smash's unique condition - push the opponent off the stage into the blast zone - makes it entirely possible.

That would be a balancing nightmare. The mechanics of Smash mean that you have to do damage to do greater knockback to have a better chance at knocking them off. A character that can KO at 0% through windboxes is overpowered.

 

[TheCJBrine]

You could make a moveset for Frisk, but then it'd be entirely Genocide Route or at least Neutral Route, as ACT would make more sense as the taunts and victory animations than actual moves, unless Sakurai adds some new mechanic that he can balance.

I don't think it'd be bad for Frisk to fight other characters in Smash, though; I always thought of it as a kind of sporting event, they even clap for each other after each match.


edit: just had an idea where it could be that Frisk has to deal high damage, and then has the ability to "spare" the opponent; basically, once Frisk uses Spare, the opponent's character gets taken over by an AI that forces them off the stage, letting Frisk win. Obviously that'd be overpowered and bad for gameplay, but I found it silly.

 

[Flyboy]

I mean I'd argue one big blow against Frisk is that their name itself is a spoiler and "Human" doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

I think after some thought my best idea for an Undertale rep would be Papyrus with Sans cameos.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A character that can KO at 0% through windboxes is overpowered.

And this, my friend, is why the Gust Bellows are hated.

(Not sarcasm either. It's something that shouldn't show up in Single Player outside of Multi-Man fights so you can use it to make it less tedious)

 

[GoodGrief741]

And this, my friend, is why the Gust Bellows are hated.

(Not sarcasm either. It's something that shouldn't show up in Single Player outside of Multi-Man fights so you can use it to make it less tedious)

I love the Gust Bellows, but yeah, it's super OP. A character that plays like a full time Gust Bellows would be broken to the point of making the game trivial.

 

[Ovaltine]

I love the Gust Bellows, but yeah, it's super OP. A character that plays like a full time Gust Bellows would be broken to the point of making the game trivial.

Sakurai just, "Y'all thought Bayonetta was broken in 4? You wonder if there could be an even more broken character?

I'll take that as a challenge."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I love the Gust Bellows, but yeah, it's super OP. A character that plays like a full time Gust Bellows would be broken to the point of making the game trivial.

Even Fuujin(a Wind God in Mortal Kombat) isn't borked like that. Hell, even one of my own characters, a Demi-God of Wind, has no focus on that kind of ability. He focuses more on windy attacks that are damaging(death of a thousand cuts) and stuff like his fire and psychic abilities. Etc.

I feel that they've done a good job not having anything nearly that OP as a normal character ability. Like, as bad as Bayonetta was in 4, and even worse with Meta Knight in Brawl, they tried a lot harder to balance it than most games. Not that the balancing was issueless by any means(my disappointment with Meta Knight isn't the fact he was at one time banned, but the fact that they give him a lower Ledge Grab Limit just to nerf him as an excuse to make him "more fair". Which already says a lot. I'd have loved the metagame to develop by having equal LGL's so people would be forced to have every character on even grounds, so to speak. Though I'll say this; the LGL isn't the most annoying nerf possible. There's dumb ideas like taking away his B or A moves as an excuse via the custom controls. For good reasons, no respectable tourney owner would ever agree to that. There's nerfing and just facepalm-worthy things).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Spoiler: Not technically a spoiler but view at your own risk.

What if...

Frisk's Down Special brings up the battle menu from Undertale with the options of Fight, Act, or Mercy. Selecting Fight gives Frisk a normal moveset with frame data (and perhaps range) that improves the more you hit opponents (Shown via an Exp. gauge). Selecting Mercy gives Frisk a moveset of pure get off me "attacks" that don't deal any damage. Instead, these attacks fill the "Spare" gauge. The more full the gauge, the more damage he can do in other modes. Tapping the Down Special input will always select Act, which will do one of two things. In Mercy mode (or with low Exp.) this is a command grab in which Frisk does something nice for the opponent. If an opponent's spare gauge is full then the camera will zoom in to show the opponent waving to Frisk and then leave (The character will lose a stock as well) If Frisk has high Exp, then Act becomes a powerful, though laggy, attack. If Frisk has only attacked opponents while in Fight mode, then this can instantly kill opponents at high damage (Something like 180% or 200%. With full Exp it could kill at around 120%). If the player does not put Frisk in Fight or Mercy mode then it remains in Neutral mode, which gives Frisk a little of both his other movesets.

Ideally the moveset will have players to strategize using the different modes. Mercy mode is technically more powerful but leaves Frisk more open to attack, Fight mode is a slow burn in terms of effectiveness, and Neutral mode is more akin to a normal character's moveset.

 

[SimonferSmash]

Been a while since I posted here but for some reason I personally feel that Lara Croft should be picked from SE now.

Mainly cause while I know DQ is very influential, Lara has a bit more worldwide appeal to her that even non gamers can identify her and that she would generate an insurmountable amount of buzz if announced.

Then again this is all heavily subjective and Erdrick could get in over her based on what new gameplay opportunities he could provide in comparison.

But it would still be a huge honor for Tomb Raider to be included into Smash.

I'm also afraid DQ might run into the same limited music pool that FF did due to how complicated it is to negotiate with the composer and feel after the first pack the future ones should measure up to the contents within.

Then again it all depends on how much these different companies are willing to negotiate, with some not being as generous as others.

 

[Ovaltine]

I'm also afraid DQ might run into the same limited music pool that FF did due to how complicated it is to negotiate with the composer and feel after the first pack the future ones should measure up to the contents within.

I'm actually not worried for Erdrick's music when he gets in (which in my mind isn't a matter of if, just when). DQXI S has a full, orchestrated soundtrack funded by Nintendo, so it seems like they can negotiate good music with Sugiyama just fine.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm actually not worried for Erdrick's music when he gets in (which in my mind isn't a matter of if, just when). DQXI S has a full, orchestrated soundtrack funded by Nintendo, so it seems like they can negotiate good music with Sugiyama just fine.

It's been confirmed that each DLC character comes with it's own spirits, so if we do get a SquarEnix character it will likely come with the full experience.

Been a while since I posted here but for some reason I personally feel that Lara Croft should be picked from SE now.

Mainly cause while I know DQ is very influential, Lara has a bit more worldwide appeal to her that even non gamers can identify her and that she would generate an insurmountable amount of buzz if announced.

Then again this is all heavily subjective and Erdrick could get in over her based on what new gameplay opportunities he could provide in comparison.

But it would still be a huge honor for Tomb Raider to be included into Smash.

Agreed. I wonder which Lara Nintendo would use.

 

[thisjustin2001]

I mean I'd argue one big blow against Frisk is that their name itself is a spoiler and "Human" doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

I think after some thought my best idea for an Undertale rep would be Papyrus with Sans cameos.

I completely agree with the point of Frisk's name itself being a spoiler. I don't get Papyrus being the "best" idea for an Undertale rep, though. Papyrus is like the Luigi to Sans' Mario. Having a side character in Undertale as a playable fighter, while the game's biggest icon is only a small part of his moveset is an idea that literally makes no sense to me.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Maybe Jane is actually Tomb Raider, lol. We could always use more characters that should have been in PlayStation All Stars but weren't.

If we got trouble with getting more than two Final Fantasy spirits and songs, would Dragon's Quest really get enough content in comparison to the other packs? Assuming Square hands over another rep to begin with...

 

[SKX31]

Maybe Jane is actually Tomb Raider, lol. We could always use more characters that should have been in PlayStation All Stars but weren't.

If we got trouble with getting more than two Final Fantasy spirits and songs, would Dragon's Quest really get enough content in comparison to the other packs? Assuming Square hands over another rep to begin with...

We'll just have to see on the Square side of things. Anything Final Fantasy-related beyond Cloud could be a case of getting the absolutely essential stuff back first (Cloud and Midgar), and leaving the "non-essential" stuff like Spirits, additional tracks etc. until Nintendo and Square have inked the deal.

Could be off on that, but it would make sense given that the FF (VII, IX and X) ports were announced relatively recently (the February Direct IIRC) alongside the expanded DQ XI port.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Maybe Jane is actually Tomb Raider, lol. We could always use more characters that should have been in PlayStation All Stars but weren't.

If we got trouble with getting more than two Final Fantasy spirits and songs, would Dragon's Quest really get enough content in comparison to the other packs? Assuming Square hands over another rep to begin with...

She isn't. She's specifically created as a costume for Joker via the known data. She's pretty much going to be a Persona(or SMT) character without any doubt. Vaanrose went over this, but the jist is that her actual data was specifically set up so it can only work on Joker himself, meaning she was 100% his alt without question at one point. So any theory she's somebody else doesn't make sense.

Jane was a Joker alt without any doubt. That said, she could still come in as an Echo, Mii Costume, or even a Spirit. Depending upon how the negotiations went, they might've had to talk to Sega before scrapping her current status to change it to something else. It's possible she was scrapped entirely and they got the money back since they didn't use the character. That way the companies discuss it and trust in each other overall(when you license something, it's a rather big deal. You're obligated to use the content, since they trust you'll use it well as is. Never mind it's a severe waste of money to pay for content that'll never save use. That's just bad business. Companies would rather re-negotiate in these cases, because it means the person who licenses it cares about the company they're licensing from, which also creates more trust and respect).

 

[Guynamednelson]

Maybe Jane is actually Tomb Raider, lol.

Impossible. The data we have for Jane means she has to be connected to Joker.

 

[Ovaltine]

We'll just have to see on the Square side of things. Anything Final Fantasy-related beyond Cloud could be a case of getting the absolutely essential stuff back first (Cloud and Midgar), and leaving the "non-essential" stuff like Spirits, additional tracks etc. until Nintendo and Square have inked the deal.

Could be off on that, but it would make sense given that the FF (VII, IX and X) ports were announced relatively recently (the February Direct IIRC) alongside the expanded DQ XI port.

We also have to keep in mind that FF is mainly on the Square side of things, whereas Enix has shown themselves to handle management quite differently. It may be the Square side of the company that's proving tough to work with in regards to Smash, especially considering it's stuff in the base game, whereas Enix is more willing to go through with a red carpet deal. That said, I could see Square inking in a separate deal for Square-related materials separately, either as part of the DQ pack or some separate sort of DLC. It's Square. They're going to want to milk Smash for all that it's worth, especially since they had to let Cloud be used in the base.

 

[Nemuresu]

You know, something popped up in mind: did anyone else notice the Akira Yuki and Jacky Bryant Mii costumes were absent from the last news batch?
It really wouldn't mean much (if anything at all), but I think that means not all third-party costumes are coming back.

 

[Ovaltine]

You know, something popped up in mind: did anyone else notice the Akira Yuki and Jacky Bryant Mii costumes were absent from the last news batch?
It really wouldn't mean much (if anything at all), but I think that means not all third-party costumes are coming back.

Geno's better come back because there's no way he's making the boat this time or this chick is gonna riot

 

[Guynamednelson]

You know, something popped up in mind: did anyone else notice the Akira Yuki and Jacky Bryant Mii costumes were absent from the last news batch?
It really wouldn't mean much (if anything at all), but I think that means not all third-party costumes are coming back.

There could be a repeat, where their inclusion isn't connected to the DLC character's company, but their genre.

 

[Ridrool64]

Gonna interrupt my pro-Frisk thing for a sec to say please let me have Akira and Jacky's Mii Costumes as Arle's trojan horses. Please. It doesn't even need to be this pass. If it is, many are gonna be angry, actually, but I won't.

 

[GoodGrief741]

There could be a repeat, where their inclusion isn't connected to the DLC character's company, but their genre.

So we getting a Tekken character then?

 

[Ovaltine]

Gonna interrupt my pro-Frisk thing for a sec to say please let me have Akira and Jacky's Mii Costumes as Arle's trojan horses. Please. It doesn't even need to be this pass. If it is, many are gonna be angry, actually, but I won't.

What the heck, no, I'd love to see Arle in Smash. Puyo is so underloved and needs more affection. Her move set has a lot of potential, too!

 

[Deleted member]

It's been over a day since Phantom Strikers was announced to the sheer disappointment that it wasn't a P5 switch port (). E3 is still over a month away and anything could happen until then, but I have a feeling if we get 2 reveals at E3 people would be as disappointed with whoever is revealed after Brave if it isn't a Microsoft rep. You'd get those people that are hype as'f with the 3rd fighter pack because it's a character they've wanted in Smash, and then you'd get those people who are just salty, angry, or disappointed because they set their expectations way too high on something that wasn't meant to be.

I do think Banjo is a pretty safe pick currently, but I'm also going to keep my expectations low so that I don't overhype myself over nothing and get upset over it (even though Banjo isn't on my top 8 most wanted DLC pick).

 

[shinhed-echi]

Just want to say that maybe, with the DQ music pack, we could get FF music as well.

I have 3 examples of why this is possible.

1) The Sonic Mii costumes that came with Joker pack.

2) The fact that Bayonetta came with “Afterburner” song. Which although it appears in her game, it’s still from another game altogether.

and if you think that’s sega being generous, then this example hits closer to home.

3) Theatrythm Final Fantasy:
One of these games, had songs from other Square Enix properties than final fantasy, such as Romancing Saga, Bravely Default, Chrono Trigger And even Nier.

And this was without Nintendo’s hand in it, so I think it’s possible we could see at least one new FF song in a DQ music pack. Who knows?

 

[ganondorf_22]

I completely agree with the point of

Spoiler

Frisk's name

itself being a spoiler. I don't get Papyrus being the "best" idea for an Undertale rep, though. Papyrus is like the Luigi to Sans' Mario. Having a side character in Undertale as a playable fighter, while the game's biggest icon is only a small part of his moveset is an idea that literally makes no sense to me.

“Kid from Undertale” would work.

 

[Door Key Pig]

It's been over a day since Phantom Strikers was announced to the sheer disappointment that it wasn't a P5 switch port (). E3 is still over a month away and anything could happen until then, but I have a feeling if we get 2 reveals at E3 people would be as disappointed with whoever is revealed after Brave if it isn't a Microsoft rep. You'd get those people that are hype as'f with the 3rd fighter pack because it's a character they've wanted in Smash, and then you'd get those people who are just salty, angry, or disappointed because they set their expectations way too high on something that wasn't meant to be.

I do think Banjo is a pretty safe pick currently, but I'm also going to keep my expectations low so that I don't overhype myself over nothing and get upset over it (even though Banjo isn't on my top 8 most wanted DLC pick).

Yeah there could totally not even be a Microsoft rep happening, right? Maybe those negotiations lined up with the DLC selection process, but most of their candidates have happened to have people openly talk about their non-inclusion in Smash (Master Cheif, Cuphead & Steve).
Just because Ubisoft was able to develop a game with Mario in it has yet to mean anything for Smash outside of Spirit representation.
Heck, we're not even guaranteed a Square rep after all this time...

 

[KatKit]

So we getting a Tekken character then?

I'm glad this was mentioned because I genuinely think we will get a Tekken character (Heihachi). Here's why:

-Namco Bandai has a healthy relationship with Smash Bros. and Nintendo (as a whole), to say the least.

-He had a Mii costume in Smash 4 that is mysteriously absent for some reason.

-Tekken is as popular/influential to the 3D genre of fighters as Street Fighter is to the 2D genre.

-It'd be a nice tribute since his Japanese VA passed away.

-He was already playable in a different platform fighting game; his moveset can definitely work in Smash as well.

-The man has already crossed paths with Ryu and Ken, a Final Fantasy character, a Metal Gear character, and Pacman. He's also already been in the same game as Link, and has already been in a game where he fought people dressed like Nintendo all-stars. Aside from that, he fights ninjas, robot girls, kangaroos, dinosaurs, etc. on the regular; he'd fit right in with Smash Bros. Heck, he even fought a dude from Walking Dead AND King of Fighters.

-He was considered by Sakurai before. Whether he proved difficult to implement at the time or not, this is a different game and characters who were previously considered too hard to implement are now playable (see: Ridley, e.g.).

 

[osby]

I'm glad this was mentioned because I genuinely think we will get a Tekken character (Heihachi). Here's why:

-Namco Bandai has a healthy relationship with Smash Bros. and Nintendo (as a whole), to say the least.

-He had a Mii costume in Smash 4 that is mysteriously absent for some reason.

-Tekken is as popular/influential to the 3D genre of fighters as Street Fighter is to the 2D genre.

-It'd be a nice tribute since his Japanese VA passed away.

-He was already playable in a different platform fighting game; his moveset can definitely work in Smash as well.

-The man has already crossed paths with Ryu and Ken, a Final Fantasy character, a Metal Gear character, and Pacman. He's also already been in the same game as Link, and has already been in a game where he fought people dressed like Nintendo's all-stars. Aside from that, he fights ninjas, robot girls, kangaroos, dinosaurs, etc. on the regular; he'd fit right in with Smash Bros. Heck, Tekken even had a Walking Dead crossover.

-He was considered by Sakurai before. Whether he proved difficult to implement at the time or not, this is a different game and characters who were previously considered too hard to implement are now playable (see: Ridley, e.g.).

Your other points are good, but none of the third party Mii costumes returned in Ultimate base game. There is no mystery unique to Heihachi, it's likely just licensing issues.

 

[KatKit]

Your other points are good, but none of the third party Mii costumes returned in Ultimate base game. There is no mystery unique to Heihachi, it's likely just licensing issues.

True, but I think Namco Bandai is a special case since they're directly involved with the development of Ultimate and have a lot of their IPs already present in the game in some capacity. I think we'll end up getting their Mii costumes back as paid DLC similar to the Sega ones.

I mean, even though we don't have Virtua Fighter Mii costumes, Akira is an assist trophy now. So far, Tekken has no representation in the base game, which is very suspicious, IMO.

 

[Door Key Pig]

True, but I think Namco Bandai is a special case since they're directly involved with the development of Ultimate and have a lot of their IPs already present in the game in some capacity. I think we'll end up getting their Mii costumes back as paid DLC similar to the Sega ones.

I mean, even though we don't have Virtua Fighter Mii costumes, Akira is an assist trophy now. So far, Tekken has no representation in the base game, which is very suspicious, IMO.

It technically does; Heihachi is one of Pacman's sprites in his taunt.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do you think Heihachi would always face his opponent in a 1v1 like Ryu and Ken?

Slightly off topic, but what if we got a character color picker in the next DLC patch? Ideally it would allow you to create up to 8 custom colors. They could also throw in some new alternate costumes as free and/or paid DLC. This could even include things that didn't get into the base game because they're too similar to the default color (Ninten), or even ones that just should have been in the base game (Mrs. Pac-Man). These custom costumes would be playable online, but if you tired of garish color combinations you could turn them off for other players; In which case your screen will show the other player using the normal color that corresponds to their custom color.

 

[KatKit]

Seeing how Tekken is a 3D fighter, I think Heihachi won't always face his opponents like Ryu/Ken. You can legitimately beat people fighting them with your back turned the whole time in Tekken (as a Lili main, I enjoy this, btw).

It technically does; Heihachi is one of Pacman's sprites in his taunt.

Cool! I had no idea lol. So it would sting a little extra when Pacman taunts Heihachi mains mid-match.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Besides Toad, what Nintendo All-Star is missing from Smash Bros?

Dixie Kong comes to mind.

 

[Robdelia]

I'm still not sure which Bandai Namco rep I want for dlc. Heihachi and Lloyd Irving would be cool, unique characters, but I also want the Prince of All Cosmos just to see how stupid a Katamari moveset in Smash would be.

 

[CureParfait]

The Bandai Namco rep I want for DLC is any Idolmaster character since other than I think they would be cool. I am curious how would their play style will end up as.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

If we're talking about Namco characters we want give me The Prince Of All Cosmos (or a Dark Souls character).

 

[Megadoomer]

I think I've said this before, but as far as Namco-Bandai characters that I'd want for DLC, I'd prefer Heihachi or Agumon.

Still, they do have a lot of options that I'd be okay with (and I'm not very familiar with Tekken, so maybe Jin or Kazuya would work better), like Nightmare from Soul Calibur, Lloyd (or Yuri? Not sure who's more popular or noteworthy) from the Tales series, Kos-Mos from Xenosaga, or the Prince from Katamari Damacy. Not as much as Capcom, but still a pretty solid list.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Lloyd and KOS-MOS would probably be my top 2 picks for Namco.
If Lloyd was picked he could probably come with Mii Costumes for Yuri, Luke, and Velvet just like how Joker came with P3 and P4 Mii costumes, as well as a Spirit board with the various Tales characters over the years.