Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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I'm going on the assumption that there won't be any characters that are in the game as spirits, and this list excludes Joker and is in no particular order:
  • Zhao Yun - Battle of Chibi - Arena
  • Cooking Mama - any stage - any mm
  • Ryu Hayabusa - Sky City Tokyo - Unbreakable Determination
  • Nightmare & possibly Siegfried as an echo - any stage - The Evil Flame

Cooking Mama and a Dynasty Warriors character are not likely going to be in the DLC, but they'd make some good out there picks for DLC, especially Cooking Mama. Dynasty Warriors is a very fascinatingly repetitive series with a solid OST and large roster, and although Lu Bu would be someone I'd want to see in Smash, Zhao Yun's probably a likely candidate since he's the mascot (I don't suppose there would be anymore ATs coming with the fighter packs, but a Lu Bu AT where his theme plays as he appears would be incredible). As for Cooking Mama, I've never played a Cooking Mama game, but I love the idea of Cooking Mama in Smash. She'd probably have a lot of cooking utensils to her moveset, but I don't think she'll go around cutting anyone with knives as silly as that sounds.

Now Hayabusa and Nightmare I could see making the cut. Granted, this DLC would lean towards having more swordfighters, but with the base roster only having 1 newcomer that's a swordfighter (who is also an echo), I think it's fine to have a couple more. Ninja Gaiden is 1 of the oldest and most notable franchises that dates back to NES times, and Hayabusa has a lot of moves in his arsenal to use such as the Izuna Drop and Flying Swallow. It'd be a huge missed opportunity to not include him as DLC. Nightmare on the other hand is Soul Calibur's most familiar character that is an antagonist throughout the series, and with a roster that's still fairly on the more heroic side, Nightmare would be a good addition to have as a villainous DLC character. I've only played the 2nd game so I don't know how similar Siegfried's moveset is compared to Nightmare in SC, but it'd be great if we get 2 characters in 1 Fighter Pack even if the 2nd character is an echo.
 
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Challenger Pack 2: Chorus Kids (slash any kind of RH rep) - Rhythm Heaven (perhaps works similar to the WarioWare stage)
Challenger Pack 2: Chorus Kids (slash any kind of RH rep) - Rhythm Heaven (perhaps works similar to the WarioWare stage)
Challenger Pack 3: Crash Bandicoot - The Time Twister Machine (travels through different time period levels)
Challenger Pack 4: Marco (Metal Slug) - some MS level idk
Challenger Pack 5: Tails "Miles" Prower or something idk - Chemical Plant Zone
Love the Marco suggestion! MS is one of my all time faves!

My wish list:

Challenger Pack 2: Crash Bandicoot - Time Twister
Challenger Pack 3: Dixie Kong - Homecoming Hijinx (Frozen DK island)
Challenger Pack 4: Rayman - Glade of Dreams
Challenger Pack 5: Banjo Kazooie - Spiral Mountain

HM: Bomberman, Bandanna Dee, Scorpion.
 
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Well, if we're still on the topic of what confirms and deconfirms characters...

DERP
This is why I still think these characters have a shot. Sure, Captain Toad appears in New Donk (yet I still haven't seen him whenever I play there), but Planty Boi, coupled with the background cameos of King Dedede in Dream Land being removed when Triple D is fighting, as well as Chrom's continued involvement with Robin's FS, ought to give a lot of hope for the dear Captain, or at least Toads in general.
I know I'm going to get digitally yelled at for this, but here goes;

I don't think Assist Trophies flat out deconfirm characters for DLC.


Now that you've finished laughing at me like this Spy, let me just put out some of my personal beliefs in response to these arguments.

1: Sakurai said they wouldn't be playable.
It's true that this is the case for Brawl...
View attachment 187101
...and for 3DS/Wii U.

(Just a reminder, I do like Waluigi, but to avoid accusations of bias, let me say that these were the only instances I could find)
However, it's curious to note that we've heard nothing on the situation of Assist Trophies throughout Ultimate's development cycle; not in the Directs, not on the blog, not even within Sakurai's interviews with insiders. It may not mean much, but it's still notable in that while the devs at SORA got straight to the point on the situation of ATs in the past two games, they've yet to say anything in regards to this installment. Not to mention, we've all heard about the interview where Sakurai admitted that he thought that Ridley was too big. Four years later, and the rest is history

2: Wouldn't they have to remove the Assist Trophy to make it possible?
My answer to that; trick question, they don't need to. Instances of more than one character appearing in fighting games with assisting roles have existed for longer than most would think. In Dragon Ball FighterZ, Android 17 appeared initially as a part of 18's moveset, supplying assistance whenever necessary.

It wasn't until September of 2018, approximately 8 months later, where 17 appeared as his own fighter separate from 18's moveset. It should be noted that his playable appearance sees him in his park ranger outfit rather than his Red Ribbon outfit.

In a similar vein, another one of Nintendo's fighting games, Pokken Tournament, also has an assist character who was promoted to playable status; Croagunk, who started out as an Assist Pokemon who degrades the opponent's defense.

A year after Pokken released, Croagunk made a surprise appearence as a new fighter on the arcade version of the game, while being subsequently added to the DX version on Switch.

Instances of the same character have been done in multiple fighters in the past. In fact, there exists one in Ultimate itself, and at this point, we've all memed to the moon and back as to who it is.

3. Are the fans really deserving of the characters that they want? Their behavior says otherwise.
I understand that there is some resentment towards certain characters because of the behavior of their supporters because they give of the impression of being dishonest memers or otherwise (not gonna give specific examples, you know which characters and fans I'm talking about). But coming out with this argument is petty; by going by this philosophy, you're ignoring the silent majority of fans who genuinely enjoy the characters, and are thrilled if they're in and disappointed, but not livid that they're not. The best example for this was King K. Rool; when he was being campaigned for (kampaigned?), there was a majority of users who mocked the fans of the character, citing that they only wanted him in for the sake of nostalgia, as well as a majority of fans of the character being mildly annoyed to mega cheesed about the Mii costume in the previous game. But whenthe King actually got in, you know what followed? A heartfelt thank you letter...
...followed by an official response from Nintendo.
This goes to prove that judging the nature of a character's entire fanbase on the grounds of the actions of a tablespoon of idiots has no real standing ground; when it comes to a fanbase, the friendly and honest ones are the silent majority, and the ones who matter most of all.
Sorry for plaguing the thread with this tangent, I just needed somewhere to post my thoughts on the matter, and this was the best recommendation I got from the main discussion thread. Let's just go back to speculating who's in and who's out, regardless of what happens with the characters.
I've just had a thought; we've been talking about how spirits affect the likelihood of DLC characters, right? Well, I've found a possible counter to potential fighters who have spirits in-game; just use their fighter artwork as their fighter spirit. Such a practice is used with multiple characters in-game already (Red/Green, the Robins, the Trainers, & Cloud), so there's no doubt that this could be a loophole for DLC fighters.

While we're on the topic of DLC, I wanted to bring something up that I think should preferably be said.
Many fans believe that a character getting into Smash as anything but a fighter means that they are automatically null from DLC options. This extends to the Assist Trophies and Poke Ball Pokemon in particular, and people are divided over the current situation on Spirits. Many think that to add one of these characters as a fighter, then they would have to remove their previous role, which would ultimately make no sense. However, I had a thought; what if characters already in the game in some form could still be DLC, but their previous roles remained intact as well?

BUT THAT WOULDN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE!

Sense has nothing to do with it; there's no telling what happens with these sorts of games.

IT'S BREAKING SAKURAI'S RULES!

They're not Sakurai's rules, they're the fandom's rules, and these "rules" have been broken multiple times in the past, most particularly when Sakurai agreed with the fans (Ridley is too big, too many Fire Emblem characters, et cetera).

SAKURAI SAID SO ON MIIVERSE!

He did. Nearly five years ago. You know what else he disagreed with? Ridley. A lot can change in a little under half a decade.

NO DEV WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS!

That's because it's already been done with other fighting games. Croagunk was initially a support Pokemon in Pokken Tournament, and wound up hopping its way into the roster. Android 17 was previously just an element of Android 18's moveset in Dragon Ball Fighterz, only to show up at a later date flying solo from his sister. Heck, an instance of this already exists within Ultimate, with Robin retaining Chrom within Pair-Up as his Final Smash, despite Chrom himself becoming a playable character. When it's been done before, it can be done again.

THOSE FANS DON'T DESERVE THEIR CHARACTERS/THEY'RE JUST BANDWAGONING!

Okay, this argument is just being petty, and just as much of bandwagoning as they claim those other fans to be going through. Yes, there may be some characters with less than favorable vocal minorities (Waluigi, Ashley, and Shadow come to mind), but that doesn't mean you should disregard the passion and love from the bright side of the fanbase, ironic or not.

VERGE &/OR OTHER LEAKERS SAID THEY WEREN'T HAPPENING!

I'm not ashamed to admit it, I was a little bit blindsided by Verge's accuracy. Even then, though, I'd still advise you to never believe in leaks until they're either true or false, no matter how credible the source may be *cough*grinch*cough*

I HATE YOU FOR SUGGESTING THIS!

I know ;)
 

Ornl

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Focusing on characters that already have an appearance in Smash is a method that wouldn't have allowed to guess Joker by ourself.

Nintendo was watching to the originality of the dark horror sci-fi cyberpunk social psychological urban Megami Tensei / Persona, a series appeared on NES, SNES, Wii, Wii U, Switch, Gameboy, Game Boy Advance, Nintendo DS, Nintendo 3DS and Virtual Boy, and has already had a cross-over episode with Fire Emblem.
According to Famitsū readers, Persona 5 is the first favorite game by Japaneses, the first favorite game by overseas readers, and so the favorite RPG too. 9 other games of the license are among the favorite games in Japan (including Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE). In this latest survey, there is only Final Fantasy (17), Mario (15), and Dragon Quest (12) in front of Shin Megami Tensei / Persona. Only Pokemon (9) is tied.

"Who never saw it coming forward, new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5 : it's emblematic of the approach that Mr. Sakurai and the team are taking with the DLC. He wants characters that are unique, different, to bring them into the Smash Bros environment. Ultimate would bring just a whole different level of fun and enjoyment for the player. That's been the approach. That's the thinking." - Reggie
 

Lionel_B

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Regarding the inevitable inclusion of a Dragon Quest Hero... Is there a slight hope that this is not DQIII's Hero, but that of DQV ? After all, he's one of the most popular Dragon Quest and he's going to have a movie in Japan.
 
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Regarding the inevitable inclusion of a Dragon Quest Hero... Is there a slight hope that this is not DQIII's Hero, but that of DQV ? After all, he's one of the most popular Dragon Quest and he's going to have a movie in Japan.
I doubt it considering that people seem to hold Dragon Quest III in high regard and Dragon Quest V was never localized.
 

Namasura

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Regarding the inevitable inclusion of a Dragon Quest Hero... Is there a slight hope that this is not DQIII's Hero, but that of DQV ? After all, he's one of the most popular Dragon Quest and he's going to have a movie in Japan.
Very unlikely, DQV is typically the second most liked DQ in the polls, but DQIII is almost always first. Erdrick's equipment is often iconic to the franchise and one of the most featured aspects of the game in crossovers (even beating slime when it comes to appearances).

I doubt it considering that people seem to hold Dragon Quest III in high regard and Dragon Quest V was never localized.
In the SNES era perhaps, but it has arrived in the west on the DS and on mobiles.
 

Namasura

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Watch the SE rep is instead Sephiroth in response to the FF remake coming out in April.

I couldn't imagine the reactions.
Seph is the only SE character that would actually make me a bit disappointed. With so many SE franchises to represent, some popular, some fan requested, some with close ties to Nintendo, or even so many FF games to take inspiration from, they go with FF7 again? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that Geno, Sora, Edea/Agnes, Black Mage, Crono or Neku wouldn't leave.
 
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Seph is the only SE character that would actually make me a bit disappointed. With so many SE franchises to represent, some popular, some fan requested, some with close ties to Nintendo, or even so many FF games to take inspiration from, they go with FF7 again? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that Geno, Sora, Edea/Agnes, Black Mage, Crono or Neku wouldn't leave.
At the same time though Sephiroth more then warrants a spot given he's easily up there with Bowser and Eggman as one of gamings most inconic villains. Plus he'd be the first 3rd party villain to join the roster.
 
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I can't imagine them getting no Final Fantasy content in terms of Cloud spirit art, assist trophies, animated trailer appearances, 2< songs or other FF spirits, and then being able to get another character, stage and some multiple number of music tracks...
 

N3ON

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I can't imagine them getting no Final Fantasy content in terms of Cloud spirit art, assist trophies, animated trailer appearances, 2< songs or other FF spirits, and then being able to get another character, stage and some multiple number of music tracks...
But that is the amount of SE content they’ve shown they can get.

I don’t see how more money couldn’t get it again.
 
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With the Neptunia series getting a big announcement the same day as Nintendo's big Smash PAX tournament, her game coming out on Switch in the US the same time 3.0 comes out, and the fact that her Switch game is known as "Brave Neptunia", I'm going to go with Neptune as my pick for a character if announced on the 30th.

Out there choice, but IDC.
 

volbound1700

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My wish list for remaining challengers:

1. Joker (already announced)
2. Miles Tails Prowers (with Knuckles Mii Costume and Shadow alt skin for Sonic)... level would be Wing Fortress from Sonic 2
3. Rayman - Level would be Land of the Livid Dead
4. Banjo Kazooie - Level would be Pirate Cove (second stage)
5. Crash Bandicoot (or Bomberman)… not sure of stage for either.


Other characters that I wouldn't mind:

Skull Kid
Impa
Erdrick
Doomguy
Masterchief
Shadow
Dixie Kong
Knuckles
Shovel Knight
 
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SpectreJordan

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Challenger Pack 2: Sora - The World That Never Was - The Other Promise

Challenger Pack 3: Leon Kennedy - Raccoon City Police Department - Winds of Madness

Challenger Pack 4: Banjo-Kazooie - Click Clock Wood - Hailfire Peaks

Challenger Pack 5: Master Chief - Halo - On A Pale Horse


For Banjo, the obvious pick is Spiral Mountain, but I think Click Clock has more potential as a stage. Using the fall version of that level would give some visual variety to the game too; I can’t really think of any fall themes levels in Smash.

Master Chief’s stage would be based on the second level of Halo: Combat Evolved specifically.

I’d want Banjo’s stage to have some music from other Rare games. Some tracks from Perfect Dark, Killer Instinct, Battletoads & Conker would be amazing.

Runner ups would be Crash, 2B, Sans, Impa & Spring Girl.
 
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recordagger

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My previous post was who I thought it would be
Here are who I want
Joker - Mementos Depths - Last Surprise/RIIIIIVERS In The Desert - Persona 5 - Atlus
Gimmick - Persona Change
Sly Cooper - Police Headquarters (roof) - A remixed version of "A Stealthy Approach" - Sly Cooper - Sucker Punch Productions
Gimmick - Binocucom ala Snake and Pit
Jibanyan - Yokai World (Worlds' Edge) - A remixed version of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYkVElaux80 - Yokai Watch - Level-5
Gimmick - Baddinyan, Thornyan, and Robonyan
The Knight - Abyss (Lifeblood Core) - Beauty and Hatred - Hollow Knight - Team Cherry
Gimmick - Soul
Kokichi Ouma - Courtroom - A remixed version of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbTvRr97O7c - Danganronpa - Spike Chunsoft
Gimmick - Electrohammer Charge
BONUS: Steve - Blocky Version of Battlefield but with trees and random layout like Living room - Minecraft End Theme - Minecraft -
Mojang
Gimmick - Building
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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Honestly, it's probably wishful thinking, but I still got a good feeling about that leak with Ryu Hayabusa and Doom Slayer.

That DLC roster just seems to fit with Sakurai's design philosophy, Nintendo's potential advertising strategy, and Reggie's statement at The Game Awards.

Joker, Erdrick, Hayabusa, Doom Slayer, and Steve are all; unique in both physical and game-play design, icons of their respective companies AND genre, poster characters for award winning franchises, relevant in the eyes of both old school and new gamers, and are all set to appear in a game within the year (with the exception of Erdrick). If these characters in the leak really are fake then this guy did some serious research to decide who Sakurai and Nintendo would pick based on their individual preferences.
 

Idon

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Well, 2B and Demi-fiend's been deconfirmed by the zero-sum game and their company siblings making it in first, Doomslayer and Dante have both been hard deconfirmed. I suppose only Ryu Hayabusa at this point has a snowball's chance for being one of the remaining three.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Well, 2B and Demi-fiend's been deconfirmed by the zero-sum game and their company siblings making it in first, Doomslayer and Dante have both been hard deconfirmed. I suppose only Ryu Hayabusa at this point has a snowball's chance for being one of the remaining three.
Wait, when was Doom Slayer hard deconfirmed?
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Didn't they tweet something?

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I think that's what happened. Plus the whole West+Bethesda Parent seems like a real hamper as well.
I'd be lying if I said that the Western Studio thing wasn't a problem but as far as I know this is the only thing they've said about Smash Bros. Again as far as I know. Still, I think that the line up for DLC that was in that leak is a very likely scenario. Steve and Doom Slayer included, despite their western origins. Bethesda and Microsoft have been pretty close with Nintendo as of late so maybe it won't be TOO difficult to get in touch with them but I guess we'll just see.
 
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Ornl

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Honestly, it's probably wishful thinking, but I still got a good feeling about that leak with Ryu Hayabusa and Doom Slayer.

That DLC roster just seems to fit with Sakurai's design philosophy, Nintendo's potential advertising strategy, and Reggie's statement at The Game Awards.

Joker, Erdrick, Hayabusa, Doom Slayer, and Steve are all; unique in both physical and game-play design, icons of their respective companies AND genre, poster characters for award winning franchises, relevant in the eyes of both old school and new gamers, and are all set to appear in a game within the year (with the exception of Erdrick). If these characters in the leak really are fake then this guy did some serious research to decide who Sakurai and Nintendo would pick based on their individual preferences.
The rumor of 5chan is related to the current topic of Rate Their Chances - Day 265: Concept: No fan favorites / highly requested characters.
To create doubt, this forecast takes into account :
- the presence of Shovel Knight who breaks some traditions,
- Vergebern's rumor about Square-Enix and Minecraft contents,
- Reggie's Announcement: "Who does it come forward, new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5: it's emblematic of the approach that Mr. Sakurai and the team are taking with the DLC".

This leak doesn't propose a new character who already has a link with Smash Bros in one form or another (license already represented by Fighter, Mii Costume, Assist Trophy, Spirit or Music), or response to a major popular expectation. It responds perfectly to the question of who would be the third-party fighters with the potential to provide massive satisfaction without being paradoxically claimed or widely anticipated by fans. The balance between the surprise effect, the convincing role of an idea and its popularity remains difficult to evaluate. But that's what leak designer proposed, having understood Sakurai's new policy.

Without personal opinion, this characters would still be competing alongside Steve, Hayabusa and Marine : Layton, Phoenix Wright, Leon Kennedy, Reimu Hakurei, Dovahkiin, Lara Croft and Amaterasu. But aside from Hayabusa, it's hard to believe that any of the remaining characters can get everyone to agree and spark the general craze (like Joker). I arbitrarily excluded Jibanyan and Arle Nadja because they had a high popularity in Japan when forecasting the Smash 4 DLCs. To determine the other criteria of popularity, I relied on different sources :
- Japanese forecasts : the top 10 forecasts from this source is K.Rool, Crystal, Ridley, Dixie, Paper Mario, Custom Robo, Daisy, Waddle Dee, Isaac and Jibanyan. Ryu is expected in 13th position, after Arle Nadja.
- American wishes : the top 10 wishes from this source is Rayman, Banjo, K.Rool, Bayonetta, Bomberman, Isaac, Midna, Ridley, Paper Mario and Waluigi.
- Americans forecast : the top 10 forecasts from this source is Rayman, Dixie, Isaac, K.Rool, Inkling, Chorus Men, Toad, Bayonetta, Impa, and Waddle Dee. Ryu is expected in 31st position.
- Japanese forecasts : the top 10 forecasts from this source is Rex, Waddle Dee, Springman, K.Rool, Sora, 2B, Sans, Ashley, Karate Joe, and Crash. Only 1 of these forecasts has been adapted as Fighter.
- Americans forecasts : the top 10 forecasts from this these 5 sources is K.Rool, Waluigi, Ridley, Shovel Knight, Waddle Dee, Banjo, Crash, Isaac, Dixie, and Rex & Pyra. Only 2 of these forecasts have been adapted as Fighters, and the new anticipated Pokémon wasn't good.
Other ideas can still come. After Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Street Fighter and Megami Tensei, what would be the all right games or series ?
 

Ornl

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...Could it be Crash?
To everyone his predictions and support, I respect that.
Crash is already expected in the top 10 Japanese (10th) and US (7th) forecasts. On this forum, the RTC thread gave Crash ≈ 1.5% chance for Smash 4, then ≈ 28% for Smash U. But this isn't just a simple problem of popularity, as for the majority of very popular forecasts. In my opinion, Crash would have 2 other weaknesses : his common gameplay and his affiliation to Activision-Blizzard (Warcraft, Quake, Tony Hawk's, Call of Duty, Overwatch...), an important contrast compared to other third-party companies that have a stronger link with Nintendo.
 
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JDCabrera

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To everyone his predictions and support, I respect that.
Crash is already expected in the top 10 Japanese (10th) and US (7th) forecasts. On this forum, the RTC thread gave Crash ≈ 1.5% chance for Smash 4, then ≈ 28% for Smash U. But this isn't just a simple problem of popularity, as for the majority of very popular forecasts. In my opinion, Crash would have 2 other weaknesses : his common gameplay and his affiliation to Activision-Blizzard (Warcraft, Quake, Tony Hawk's, Call of Duty, Overwatch...), an important contrast compared to other third-party companies that have a stronger link with Nintendo.
Activision has a neat relationship with Nintendo doh.
They are supporting the Switch a lot since launch, made a Diablo Amiibo and Switch Bundle, support the Crash IP on the system and even used DK and Bowser in Skylanders.

It’s not at the level of Ubisoft where they make games of huge Nintendo IPs like Mario or Zelda, but it is still a good relationship that many companies would love to have.

EA however... The people there don’t enjoy Nintendo at all.
 

JDCabrera

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Probably using his Skylanders design. I guess not the worst case scenario though.
I find his look in Imaginators the best one to go with in that scenario.

But even then, I doubt that Activision will go with Skylanders at all since the series isn’t as successful at the moment as Crash or Spyro are.
 
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